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Rank: Moderator  Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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William wrote:I am sorry that I do come off as "the bad guy" on these forums...but I just feel that some of you truly believe in what CW and KP say on things...and that others are "drawn in" and may be afraid to speak up. It is for those people that I am here...to show that Christianity, TRUE Christianity, is NOT wrong. To make them think before they believe. I simply cannot follow a couple of guys who say that they no longer attend church because they cannot find ONE in all the world that is true...that say the Bible translations are wrong and should not be followed. Think about it--that means ONE person out of all history is correct (CW) and then he got a follower (KP)...and then the group slowly grew. Basically you are trusting ONE man over MILLIONS of Biblically educated Christians and Jews throughout all of history. Don't you think AT ALL that this is odd and MAY be wrong??? Doesn't this ring a bell of Jim Jones or David Koresh--they too believed in their leaders and the leaders' interpretations of the Bible.
Hit me with Scripture and CLEAR examples of Biblical teachings. I refuse to debate anything other than the Bible...YY or otherwise. If you cannot answer my challenges, then don't bother telling me I'm "wrong" or "bad". I don't want to hear CW's or KP's beliefs or what's in their books. I want you to answer me with CLEAR (as in don't twist it) Bible references. Maybe you can start with Jesus' baptism and the presence of all three persons of God being present--or tell me where Jesus, the apostles, or any prophet talks plainly and often about a third option after death.
William I can't speak for everyone here, but I for one, dis not just accept Craig's translation of scripture, I have taken the time to check his translations, using the best tools I have access to, and have found his translations to be more in depth and accurate than any of the English translations available. And no one here believes that he is the only one in all of history to get it right. I believe that Yahweh's word is true and eternal, but translations are strictly man made affairs. If you take the time to study the history of English translations you will learn that they should not be trusted 100%. Read about the history of the Textus Recepticus, read about the comparisons between the Masoretic and the Dead Sea Scrolls, look at who was behind the translations. The translations were done in such a way to confirm the beliefs of the "church" at the time they where done. Particularly the KJV, and the NIV, ASB, NASB and other English translations are mostly revisions of the KJVs wording to make it easier for people to understand in modern English. For example why does every translater continue to use the same sources for there translations, mostly 4th and 5th century documents, rather than the 1st 2nd and 3rd century manuscripts that we have, why do they continue to use the Masoretic rather than the much older Dead Sea Scrolls? I for one don't see you as "the bad" person in the forum, in fact I welcome you, and see you as I see everyone here, as seeking knowledge. But as Bitnet has pointed out the answer to your questions, have been answered in the books, and re writing it all here would be a waste of server space when you can read the books, and see the arguments that have persuaded us. If you choose to see the translations as "twisting" scripture, then that is your option, having checked and confirmed many of the translations, I see the English translations, as twisting and out right altering of scripture. I am a person who views logic and reason as my strongest guide. The reasoned arguments in YY, which based on my study of the Scriptures have lead me to the conclusions I have. I for one, do not think you are going to Hell for your beliefs, I think you are seeking Yahweh, and on the same journey as all of us, I wish you luck on your journey, and if either of us are errant in our understanding, I pray that Yahweh will help us and guide us to him. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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William, if you knew how often I disagree with CW (about little things) you'd blush to call me his "follower." I love the man and value his insight, but I'm far from being in lock step with his doctrine or interpretation---and he respects that, as long as I've done my homework. A glaring example is your insistence that "True Christianity" is not wrong. I agree with you, but the real point of contention is not the fact of the matter, but the symantics. Craig looks at the religion of Christianity, including all of the groups that claim the title, from Catholics and Orthodox splinter groups, to apostate Protestants to Mormons, to JWs to...well, you get the idea. And he notes (quite rightly) that there's something systemically wrong here. If you get it down to statistics, I'm sure you'd agree that as a percentage, what you'd label "true Christians" are a very very small part of the "religion" as a whole. Then he goes one step further (and this is where we disagree a bit) and says that "Christ" is not a legitimate word---that it's not a proper translation of "anointed one," never mind what the lexicons say, because the root from which it is derived (not the actual word Christos, but its root, chrisos) can mean "drugged" or "whitewashed." I remain unconvinced. Adding to the controversy is that "Christos" is a nomina sacra in all the pre-Constantinian manuscripts---it isn't actually spelled out. Unlike CW, I'm prepared to accept Christos at face value, and therefore don't have a problem calling real followers of Yahshua "Christians." But as I said, our differences are on fine points, nuances of symantic usage---not about fundamental doctrines. We each reserve the right to think for ourselves and listen to what the Holy Spirit (another designation CW hates because "holy" is so often a misapplied and misunderstood word---which it is) tells us.
By the way, I attend a regular Bible (CW hates that word, too---pagan roots) believing church (another symantic nightmare) at least twice a week, and teach home Bible studies as well, so please don't tell me I "no longer attend." As with everything else, you need to get your facts straight. The people I fellowship with don't know everything. Nor do I. But they love Yahweh and are eager to learn (unlike the fast preponderance of the religion of Christianity). That's good enough for me.
kp
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William………..a few comments to you -
When I first came on here I had a similar attitude as yourself. You are coming on here without doing any homework and accusing folks by judging a few comments on a topic or two and not looking at these folks works as a whole. And you are making a BIG assumption that YOUR version of the Bible is the correct one and these folks are false based on what YOU have been conditioned to believe. And I say conditioned because your comments wreak of religious dogma and not bible scripture. And I will be happy to point out your dogmatic ways if you need me to.
And yes…I believe that 98% percent of ALL religious leaders and religions are dead wrong at the detriment to their followers and I would much rather read an honest comment from KP or CW any day. I do not agree with KP on a few points which I intend to discuss with him coming up. However, I just read ALL of his his 500 pg. analysis of the Mosaic Laws and I must say for anyone to even attempt what he did there gets my kudos just for the effort. Do I agree with his commentary on each one? No. But I would say about 90% I can go for and that is pretty darn good. And when I look at what the Catholic church says I can relate to about 15%. And when I look at other religions it is lower than that.
So, I suggest you take a step back and realize you have become what you despise and that even YOUR take, as you described it, is holy in a non-Holy way (as in full of holes).
HOWEVER, after saying all this…I agree with you and have to disagree with KP on the understanding of the holy Spirit being feminine. And NOT because it is called a “He” either. But to explain my position takes a long time and I am not ready today, but maybe tomorrow.
I am NOT a Trinitarian. And what I call a Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the spiritual aspect of the Father. But here is one hint...even though He is called the Father it is from HIM that male and female is created - not because of a Holy Spirit. And what is the Holy Spirit anyway? And yes, why was it there when Yashua was Baptized? And if there is a Holy Spirit has there ever been unholy spirits? And what is a Spirit??? And who controls this spirit? Does it ever make up its own mind or send itself? And how does Elohim communicate to us?
:)
See this gets deep. So lets hash it out if you care to. And again, I will show you how your King James bible added words to make people like you think there is a Trinity as in Matthew 28 and 1John 5:7. And yes they ADDED words just as they changed words such as the word Passover to Easter in Acts 12:4. So is that okay William? Easter? You like Easter William?
Well, I am rambling. Out for now.
Prophet
PS – Hello Bitnet. Hello KP. As I said kudos to you after reading your Mosaic Law analysis. I have 3 things to discuss with you on this – one being this “female” Holy Spirit idea. I’ll be back. And this time around I am rested and relaxed and am ready for some good debate – even with Swalchy.
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My apologies to you KP...I did speak without knowing. Guess I stuck my foot in my mouth concerning you...I apologize profusely. I just see everyone referring to the books instead of the Bible all the time and it frustrates me.
So...in fairness to you all, I will re-read YY in an earnest study--and will have many questions and challenges for you all. But there were references to posters having studied the facts for themselves...so where do I check the "facts" and translations? Where do I have documentation to either prove CW right or prove CW wrong? I do not wish to take anything at face value--especially when it challenges the Bible.
William
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It should be noted that YY has gone through quite the revision since you probably last read it, William. And welcome back, PS :) Yahweh doesn't want religion anywhere near His most greatest sacrifice.
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Rank: Member  Joined: 7/4/2007 Posts: 1,489 Points: 4,240 Location: England
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William wrote:My apologies to you KP...I did speak without knowing. Guess I stuck my foot in my mouth concerning you...I apologize profusely. I just see everyone referring to the books instead of the Bible all the time and it frustrates me.
So...in fairness to you all, I will re-read YY in an earnest study--and will have many questions and challenges for you all. But there were references to posters having studied the facts for themselves...so where do I check the "facts" and translations? Where do I have documentation to either prove CW right or prove CW wrong? I do not wish to take anything at face value--especially when it challenges the Bible.
William Thats the money william :D Go in there full force and rip the work apart :D Thats what its there for, and thats what we try and do... The more people digging the better! :) Hey PS! :) Our TinyChat meeting room is currently here: CLICK TO GOTO ROOM Password: "yadayahweh"
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Back on topic... I'd say that it would be just as erroneous to think of the Ruach Qodesh as a "woman" as it is to think of Father Yahweh as a "man." But something's going on here. It is an undeniable fact that ruach is a feminine Hebrew noun. And going on my foundational premise that "God doesn't make stupid mistakes," it is incumbent upon us to figure out what He's trying to tell us.
I think we're thinking about this backward: any tendencies and strengths attributable to the sexes are a reflection of the way God made us, and not conversely---His attributes are not a reflection of ours. So Yahweh, who is One, has manifested "Himself" in both masculine and feminine roles in order to help us understand His nature. And "He" created us male and female so we might comprehend what the difference is. Some of us can't easily understand what's going on because we grew up in dysfunctional households. I, happily, did not---my father and mother created a "normal" home (note that I didn't say "average") in which traditional gender roles were assumed and fulfilled---much as they had been for much of the human race since the dawn of time. My father was the acknowledged authority in the home, though he and mom were never (that I could see) out of sync. He was the basic provider, though mom helped and contributed, and she was the conduit through which whatever dad brought home came into the lives of my brothers and me. Mom, in contrast, was the comforter, the consoler, the nurturer, the one who confronted me with my shortcomings. She helped with the homework. And she was the one who administered the spankings when they were necessary. Mom felt the pain when I was born, and she felt it again whenever I let dad down. She was, in short, into our lives in a very personal, intimate, hands-on way. Dad was there, but she was THERE, if you know what I mean. As far as I was concerned, they weren't really two separate people---they were the "corporation" that produced our family. They remained married and devoted for 52 years, and though he seemed to be in perfect health, dad only outlived mom by a year or two. I can't really think of one of my parents without thinking of the other.
That, in a way, is how I think Yahweh wants us to conceive of "Him"---not as our Father, but as our Parents. "He" does both masculine and feminine things. But Yahweh isn't really "male," nor is His Spirit "female." These are merely teaching devices "He" has built into our world to teach us about His own nature. It's an eye-opener, however, to realize that Yahweh's human manifestation, the Son, Yahshua, actually is masculine---He extends and projects the authority of the "Father."
kp
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 370 Points: 1,116 Location: Philadelphia
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kp wrote:Back on topic... There he goes again... ;-) kp wrote:I'd say that it would be just as erroneous to think of the Ruach Qodesh as a "woman" as it is to think of Father Yahweh as a "man." But something's going on here. It is an undeniable fact that ruach is a feminine Hebrew noun. And going on my foundational premise that "God doesn't make stupid mistakes," it is incumbent upon us to figure out what He's trying to tell us. Leonard Nimoy (yes, THAT Leonard Nimoy) has been doing some investigation into what he calls the "feminine nature of G-d". From what little I have been able to glean from the popular press, is that he is not saying that the "feminine nature" is all that there is of YHWH, but that is a part of God's nature. Has anyone here heard anymore about what he has to say? Live long and prosper. "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." But first, it will piss you off!
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Rank: Moderator Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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William wrote:I just see everyone referring to the books instead of the Bible all the time and it frustrates me. William, the main reason we reference the books like Yada Yahweh, and The Owners Manual, so much, is not because we hold them higher than Scripture, it is because they cite the Scriptures, but also the history, and a reasoned and logical argument that we feel is persuasive, and trying to sum up a 5 to 10 page explanation in a few lines on the forum is inadequate, and tiresome. Instead we site the books, so that someone can go read that section, and read that argument, and then if they have specific challenges, we can address that. Ken and Craig have a great way of explaining things, much much better than myself. William wrote:So...in fairness to you all, I will re-read YY in an earnest study--and will have many questions and challenges for you all. Please do, a lot of what this forum is about is when something in YY doesn't make sense we hash it out, and try to make sense of it. Not everyone always comes to the same conclusions as Craig, but we try to clarify what each believe, and why, and then people are free to believe what they want. William wrote:But there were references to posters having studied the facts for themselves...so where do I check the "facts" and translations? Where do I have documentation to either prove CW right or prove CW wrong? I do not wish to take anything at face value--especially when it challenges the Bible. Many of the tools used for the translations in YY are listed in the opening chapter, that is a good place to start. The Dead Sea Scrolls can be found at any bookstore, translations of course. You can find many textual criticisms comparing the DSS to the Masoretic. Also researching the history of the Masorites is interesting. Probably the best way to go is to get the Logos Original Languages software, but it is a bit expensive. The Text of the Oldest Greek New Testament Manuscripts is about $70 and combine that with a good Greek to English Dictionary, and a Greek/English Interlinear. Swalchy has a great site www.thewaytoyahuweh.com where he has been working on his own amplified translation of Scripture. As well there is a whole section on the forum, where people have shared resources that they use. I started my studying largely with taking a KJV and a Strong's Concordance and just amplified that, and found a great deal of insight that is not conveyed in the plain translation. That was really just scratching the surface of how inadequate English translations are. Keep in mind when language is really just a tool to convey a message, so if the translator has an agenda, they can read into it there own views, and then that is what gets translated, there understanding of the message. That is one of the things I really like with Craig's translations, is that he gives the Hebrew word, and the full definition, then when there are multiple possible translations he lists them, explains why he used the one he did, and why he did not use the others. Often times there are many possible translations, and all are accurate, and convey much that is lost in simple English translations. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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edStueart – Leonard Nimoy to me is a practicing Kabbalist. His Vulcan “V” symbol is Kabbalah ritual right in front of your eyes. So anything he says I will take as coming from a mystical Satanic spin.
KP – I hear you loud and clear. I guess one area I differ from you is that you are a Trinity believer – correct? And if that is so then it seems simple to try to assign this role to the Holy Spirit of being feminine in nature. If the Son is masculine then the Holy Spirit by default is feminine. And to add fuel to this argument the Hebrew noun is feminine. And also I understand the nexus people use in reciting Proverb 8 (“wisdom – she”). So when you add all this up it can circumstantially point to the Holy Spirit being feminine. Also from what I have been told this argument is also Kabbalistic in nature even though I do not in depth know what the Kabbalah says about the Holy Spirit exactly.
I have learned that the nature of the Father is male and female. Why “He” is called the Father per se I do not know. But all the energy, power, etc that was used by the Son to create our world is of the Father – male and female. It is channeled out through the hand of the Son and looked over by the Holy Spirit. This is my dynamic and explains Gen 1:26 in making “mankind” in their image – both male and female.
But then what is the Holy Spirit? I have never heard any Christian explain it to me. They use terms such as: “The essence of the Father”, “The will or breath of the Father”. They suggest that it is something that we are “tethered to” as if we get attached into a web of energy such as a spider web of sorts. They also suggest that God puts this tentacle of energy right into our hearts.
To me this description falls very short and does not make sense. If I was tethered into God’s (when I say God I mean the Godhead of 2) energy I feel I would be a hybrid man. I would never sin. I would be perfect since God himself is inside me. But I know I have free will to sin. And I know that I can turn away from the truth of what I know if I should desire it. I am a free soul. Therefore I do not believe God is inside me per se.
So, where is God and what is this Holy Spirit? Let me ask this: “Are there evil spirits? What would you folks say is an evil spirit?” Most Christians I ask this question to tell me that evil spirits are the fallen evil angels that fell with Lucifer. An evil demon to them is the same as an evil spirit or fallen angel. If this is true then if there are evil spirits why can’t there be Holy Spirits? Holy Angels. Angels that cannot fall. They have God’s “name” in them (power/authority). They cannot fall and do not have free will. They are an elect group of angels such as the President has his secret service that does his will.
Why does God need this type of angel? When he sends you this angel this angel becomes your guardian angel. He sits on your shoulder. He is competing with that evil angel that sits on your other shoulder trying to tempt you into sin. The Holy Angel talks to you and says, “No, no, don’t cheat on your wife”. That evil angel says, “Go ahead – no one will know”. This is a conversation you are having in your conscience mind about whether to sin or not. When you know right from wrong, and you chose wrong, THAT IS THE SIN OF SINNING AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT, which is basically not listening to your gut feel, your inner conscience, which is where you know right from wrong, and where the Holy Spirit talks to you as a messenger of God (the Son and Father). The true unforgivable sin is to not do what you know to do – or to do what you know not to do.
This thought gives us a picture as thus…you have the Godhead of the Father and Son giving directions through Holy Angels directly to the ones he truly is caring about and has picked. He has set up the original internet you might say. In real time he can send a message to you via the protocol of him to angel to you. And you pray from you through angel back to him. That is the system. Now lets keep this in mind as we look at scripture.
Who sends the Holy Spirit? If the Holy Spirit is equal to the Father and Son why does it take orders from them? For example:
Joh 14:26 However, the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything…
Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father,…
Heb 2:4 (LITV) God bearing witness with them by both miraculous signs and wonders, and by various works of power, even by distribution of the Holy Spirit, according to His will.
2Pe 1:21 No prophecy ever originated from humans. Instead, it was given by the Holy Spirit as humans spoke under God's direction.
Now if what I am alleging is true then it makes sense that God (the Godhead of the Son and Father = God) is controlling these Holy Spirits under his direction. They are awaiting his command and they only do what He says. To me that does not sound like they have equal status with God.
What is a spirit? We see the terms Ghost and Spirit as basically interchangeable terms. I feel another appropriate term is angel or messenger. The term could be Holy Angel or Holy Messenger. I cite these verses:
Psa 103:20 Bless Jehovah, O angels of His; mighty in strength; doing His Word; listening to the voice of His Word.
Psa 104:4 He makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flaming fire.
What was the reason for the Holy Spirit being present at Jesus’ baptism? To me it is simple. We are told in John 5:37 that no one has ever heard the Father’s voice or seen his shape. At the Baptism Jesus’ is on the ground a mortal man and then we are told that we can see the shape of the Holy Spirit – as a dove – and then a voice sounds. We then hear the message from the Father… You are My Son, the Beloved; in You I have been delighting. (LITV). Who spoke those words? It had to be the Holy Spirit. The Father has never spoke to anyone. The angel did the sound.
There are many other times angels spoke for the Father or Son. Who gave the commandments to Moses? An angel did (see Exodus 3:2 and Acts 7:53 and Hebrews 2). Who gave the Revelation to John? An angel did. It is angels that God uses as his messengers.
I can go on and on as to how the Godhead uses angels. I have just started the tip of the iceberg. And the point is this…Holy Spirits are Holy Angels. They are not Gods or Elohims. They do not do anything of their own accord. They are gender neuter or “its” if you will. They do not mate with humans (and neither do evil fallen angels).
By presenting this argument in this fashion I believe I have reasoned that the feminine energy of the Father has nothing to do with Holy Spirits. They are simply messengers. And one last thing…the concept of a Trinity is Occultic in its nature. This concept was never talked about by the Jews and the Trinity did not suddenly pop into existence because a few men in 325 AD said it to be. These men were sun and devil worshippers and totally hijacked the intent and nature of God’s word and instructions to us by formulating Religion. And from religion we get the Trinity – not from the Bible. They even changed the words in the King James bible to reflect this falsehood (See 1john 5:27).
God does not have 3 versions. It is a Father and a Son – 2 united as One. I await the comments.
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Quote:God does not have 3 versions. It is a Father and a Son – 2 united as One. Yes and no, Prophet Speaks. I agree: God does not have "three versions." But to limit God to a Father and Son united as One is to greatly oversimplify His revealed nature, to my mind. No, I'm not a "trinity believer," although I used to be, before I challenged my traditional upbringing. My current understanding is this: Yahweh is One. Period. He is "holy," that is, He is unique, set apart from His creation. There are no other Gods beside Him. However, He does choose to manifest or reveal Himself in the corporate experience of the object of His affections, mankind. Not two other ways (together making a trinity) but six: making Himself a living example of his recurring six-plus-one pattern of redemption and reconciliation. What would you call that? A Septinity? What are the six ways Yahweh manifests Himself (or has done so, or will) among men? Here's my working list. Its a subject I plan to address in detail in my new book, The Torah Code (coming to a server near you sometime in the next decade :-) 1. The Son, Yahshua of Nazareth---the anointed one, the Messiah, fully human though fully God. 2. The Holy Spirit---Yahweh's creative, nurturing entity, dwelling since the Feast of Weeks 33 AD within Yahweh's called-out assembly. 3. The Shekinah---pure light, a localized (and greatly diminished) manifestation of Yahweh's glory (seen in the burning bush, the pillar of fire and smoke, the cloud-like entity "dwelling" in the most holy place, etc. 4. The "Angel (messenger) of Yahweh---human non-messianic manifestations, theophanies: God in Eden, Abraham's dinner guest, etc. 5. The risen, glorified Messiah---clearly a different sort of being than the Yahshua who lived and died in the first century. 6. Non-humanoid symbolic manifestations---such as those witnessed in Ezekiel 1 or Revelation 4. Clearly, the Son and Holy Spirit manifestations are the ones that touch our lives most on a daily basis. But as far as I can tell, all of these are bona fide revelations of Yahweh's nature in the collective human experience---and none of them are apart from (or other than) Yahweh. For Yahweh is One. kp
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Prophet speaks wrote:But then what is the Holy Spirit? I have never heard any Christian explain it to me. They use terms such as: “The essence of the Father”, “The will or breath of the Father”. They suggest that it is something that we are “tethered to” as if we get attached into a web of energy such as a spider web of sorts. They also suggest that God puts this tentacle of energy right into our hearts.
To me this description falls very short and does not make sense. If I was tethered into God’s (when I say God I mean the Godhead of 2) energy I feel I would be a hybrid man. I would never sin. I would be perfect since God himself is inside me. But I know I have free will to sin. And I know that I can turn away from the truth of what I know if I should desire it. I am a free soul. Therefore I do not believe God is inside me per se.
So, where is God and what is this Holy Spirit? Let me ask this: “Are there evil spirits? What would you folks say is an evil spirit?” Most Christians I ask this question to tell me that evil spirits are the fallen evil angels that fell with Lucifer. An evil demon to them is the same as an evil spirit or fallen angel. If this is true then if there are evil spirits why can’t there be Holy Spirits? Holy Angels. Angels that cannot fall. They have God’s “name” in them (power/authority). They cannot fall and do not have free will. They are an elect group of angels such as the President has his secret service that does his will.
Why does God need this type of angel? When he sends you this angel this angel becomes your guardian angel. He sits on your shoulder. He is competing with that evil angel that sits on your other shoulder trying to tempt you into sin. The Holy Angel talks to you and says, “No, no, don’t cheat on your wife”. That evil angel says, “Go ahead – no one will know”. This is a conversation you are having in your conscience mind about whether to sin or not. When you know right from wrong, and you chose wrong, THAT IS THE SIN OF SINNING AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT, which is basically not listening to your gut feel, your inner conscience, which is where you know right from wrong, and where the Holy Spirit talks to you as a messenger of God (the Son and Father). The true unforgivable sin is to not do what you know to do – or to do what you know not to do.
I think you have an interesting take on the Spirit PS, I've never really seen it explained that way, and I can see your reasoning. If like you say though "The true unforgivable sin is to not do what you know to do – or to do what you know not to do." then I can't think of a single person who would be forgiven, everyone I know myself included has done something they knew at the time was wrong. I sort of agree with you on the idea of the Spirit being the the one telling you not to do what is wrong. I see it as Yahweh's spirit that dwells within us, and is our counselor, so in that way the spirit is the one counseling us against doing that which is wrong, but I tend to view the part of us saying yeah do it as our nature more so then an evil spirit. As far as the original topic of this thread, is the spirit masculine or feminine, I think we can all differ on this, personally the idea and reasoning behind the spirit being feminine made complete sense to me, and made me look at things in a whole new perspective, and I feel gave me a deeper understanding of my creator. I might be wrong, I might be right. We can ask our father one day and see what he says. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Moderator Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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On the trinity issue, I don't believe in the christian trinity, of three gods in one, makes no sense to me. I think the idea that there is one God, Yahweh, who has separated a portion of himself from the whole and set it apart from the whole, for a particular purpose. He set aside one part and had it take flesh and tabernacle with us as the messiah, that part has since rejoined with the whole, and another part has been separated, and sent to dwell with in us for a time, it has cleansed us, and made us so we may be with our father. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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KP...
“The Torah Code?” I can’t wait to read it. And again thanks for that Mosaic Law analysis.
Okay – lets see. A six in one entity? Wow. I want to give you some of my thoughts on your six.
1. The Son, Yahshua of Nazareth---the anointed one, the Messiah, fully human though fully God.
Did Yahweh manifest himself as the Jehovah Witnesses claim by “making” or “creating” Yashua sometime in the beginning? In my understanding Yashua is eternal. There was never a time when the Father did not have a Son. The Son was never created. Is the son a part of the Father? Of course – the same material, but possibly having a different “job description” you might say. Is the Son an extension of the Father? In a way – yes. But is the Son a different entity altogether? I tend to think Yes. The Son is a separate being. The Son has not been manifested. So, I cannot say that the son is the Father in a different “mode” or “perspective” since the Son is his own self. Independent, but united.
2. The Holy Spirit---Yahweh's creative, nurturing entity, dwelling since the Feast of Weeks 33 AD within Yahweh's called-out assembly.
Are you implying here that before that event you are referencing there was no Holy Spirit dwelling with man? Are you saying it is new since Yashua ascended? If my assertion is accurate that the Holy Spirit is simply Holy Angels then as Robskiwarrior said what was happening before Yashua walked the earth? Was there no Holy Spirit then? Can I believe that Abraham was led by a Holy Spirit? He must have been. And what about David? He knew who Yashua is and he MUST have been led by the Holy Spirit. Here are some verses that mention a Holy Spirit from the OT…
Psa 51:11 Do not cast me out from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and provoked His Holy Spirit, so He was turned to be their enemy; He fought against them.
Also in the OT I believe the term “the spirit of the Lord” or “angel of the Lord” is the same thing as a Hoy Spirit/Angel. It is not of my opinion his spirit is his “thought” spirit. It is a messenger spirit. For example…
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;
Gen 1:2 and the earth being without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moving gently on the face of the waters,…
To me the Spirit of God in Gen 1:2 is a Holy Spirit angel. Not the thought of God per se flying over water.
3. The Shekinah---pure light, a localized (and greatly diminished) manifestation of Yahweh's glory (seen in the burning bush, the pillar of fire and smoke, the cloud-like entity "dwelling" in the most holy place, etc.
Here is where it gets deep. What was in that burning bush? Most folks say God himself. I say which God? Some will say the Father and some may say Yashua. I say neither. It was an angel again. Yes, an angel. God uses angels more than we realize (in my understanding). Lets look at Exodus…
Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
It is pretty clear here. An angel appeared. Not just any angel, but an angel of the Lord and to me that is basically a Holy Spirit. Why would he mention this? And then what happened…
Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Why would it be said that the angel appeared in the MIDST of the bush, and then it tells us God called out unto him from the MIDST of the bush? Because it is the angel doing the talking. I don’t feel Yashua EVER came to earth before he was “begotten”. Yet there are many folk that believe he has an escalator so to speak up and back from heaven to the earth. The Mosaic Law was given to Moses by angels, not by God himself. The angels are God’s communication protocol – whether into our minds or out loud audibly. Here are some verses that back up what I am suggesting…
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was confirmed, and every transgression and disobedience received a just repayment;
Act 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
Act 7:53 who received the Law by the disposition of angels and did not keep it.
Gal 3:19 In fact, angels gave the Law to Moses, and he gave it to the people.
So, even though it was God speaking out of the bush it was angels standing there as the “speaker system”. And this exact same thing happened in Luke when Yashua was Baptized. The angel appeared in the form of a dove, God spoke, and the sound came out of the angels mouth. Same thing. Same thing in Revelation. Yashua is speaking, but the angel (Rev 1:1) is the one there.
4. The "Angel (messenger) of Yahweh---human non-messianic manifestations, theophanies: God in Eden, Abraham's dinner guest, etc.
(no comment)
5. The risen, glorified Messiah---clearly a different sort of being than the Yahshua who lived and died in the first century.
(no comment)
6. Non-humanoid symbolic manifestations---such as those witnessed in Ezekiel 1 or Revelation 4.
I think you are referring to here the angels around his throne? Aren’t these Cherubims? Angels again.
Anyway I am not seeing what you are saying. To me there is the Father and Son and EVERYTHING else. Obviously some of these other things are animate, different form, inanimate, and who knows what else. But to me his biggest concern is what happens to us. I think he worries about us more so than any angel or other created being he has made. However, I don’t think you are going Pantheistic on us telling us that everything God made will be redeemed. (I am getting off track. What I am trying to say is if it ain’t the Father or the Son it is nothing else but something created. There is no weird forms of the Father other than himself which is without form!)
Now all this being said I don’t want to jump the gun concerning your work. But I don’t know where you are drawing the line as to what is God and what is everything else. To me it is the Son and Father with angels playing a big part in their works.
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Shalom James, James says; Quote:On the trinity issue, I don't believe in the christian trinity, of three gods in one, makes no sense to me. I think the idea that there is one God, Yahweh, who has separated a portion of himself from the whole and set it apart from the whole, for a particular purpose. He set aside one part and had it take flesh and tabernacle with us as the messiah, that part has since rejoined with the whole, and another part has been separated, and sent to dwell with in us for a time, it has cleansed us, and made us so we may be with our father. I'm sorry, I just don't get it, whats the difference, maybe I don't understand the stance of the church on the trinity. Do they believe in three seperate gods that are one in purpose like the mormons do? Or are they just saying that theres One God whom represents his characteristcs to us by three different manifestations. That seems the same as what you are saying. Could someone please explain the difference.
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James...you said this...
I tend to view the part of us saying yeah do it as our nature more so then an evil spirit.
We don't need the Holy Spirit to make us "do good" and we do not "do evil" because of an evil spirit (angel) tempting us all the time. But there are times when we face such extreme temptations that is must be satanically driven through a demon, angel, or spirit (take your pick as to choice of wording). Let me give you an example...
You are on travel, at a bar, having a few drinks, and a drop dead gorgeous gal sits next to you. She gives you a smile that you have seen before. You have a few drinks. She says, "Lets go somewhere else". You say "No I am married". You feel good that you avoided a great sin. You listened to your conscience with the Holy Spirit talking to you. But, a few drinks go by, you are having fun, and she says, "Lets go sit outside and chat". You say "No" again and feel good. But finally later she says "Lets go to my room" and for some reason you get this impulse in you and you say "What the hell. She won't ever know. Lets go."
At that time "satan" entered you. Just as he entered Judas. You agreed to sin. And once you agreed to it you went at it like cats in heat. Then aftewards? Repentence time.
So, my point is I agree with you - man can be very evil, can do good, can do bad, but when he lets that impulse take over it is unstoppable.
What does this have to do with femenine Holy Spirit energy? Heck if I know.
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TRUTH B-TOLD wrote:I'm sorry, I just don't get it, whats the difference, maybe I don't understand the stance of the church on the trinity. Do they believe in three seperate gods that are one in purpose like the mormons do? Or are they just saying that theres One God whom represents his characteristcs to us by three different manifestations. That seems the same as what you are saying. Could someone please explain the difference. This is really where it gets kinda tricky, I have heard the "trinity" described in so many different ways, that when someone asks me if I believe in it, I have to say it depends on what YOUR definition of trinity is. People trying to explain to me how God can be three beings, with three separate consciences', and be one is one of the things that drove me away from christianity. As I see it there is 1 God, first commandment makes that pretty clear. Sometimes he takes on the form of a human for a specific purpose, and he refers to that manifestation as The Son or The Messiah, or Yahushua. Sometimes a spirit for another purpose referring to that manifestation as the Set Apart Spirt. He might choose a dog sometimes, and just not tell us about it, but what ever form he takes, he is still Yahweh, and still God. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Carm.org probably has a good definitely of the main doctrine of the Christian Trinity: http://www.carm.org/chri...n-doctrine/what-trinity
The main bullet points are: 1. God is three persons 2. Each person is divine 3. There is only one God. 4. Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead. 5. Each of the three persons is not the other two persons. 6. Each of the three persons is related to the other two, but are distinct from them. Kinda shoots itself in the foot. God is one, yet He has three "persons" who are distinct from each other, yet related somehow. Does sound a lot like trying to get 3 gods into 1, whilst sticking to a "we're monotheistic!" sentiment, and failing miserably Yahweh doesn't want religion anywhere near His most greatest sacrifice.
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Prophet speaks wrote:James...you said this...
I tend to view the part of us saying yeah do it as our nature more so then an evil spirit.
We don't need the Holy Spirit to make us "do good" and we do not "do evil" because of an evil spirit (angel) tempting us all the time. But there are times when we face such extreme temptations that is must be satanically driven through a demon, angel, or spirit (take your pick as to choice of wording). Let me give you an example...
You are on travel, at a bar, having a few drinks, and a drop dead gorgeous gal sits next to you. She gives you a smile that you have seen before. You have a few drinks. She says, "Lets go somewhere else". You say "No I am married". You feel good that you avoided a great sin. You listened to your conscience with the Holy Spirit talking to you. But, a few drinks go by, you are having fun, and she says, "Lets go sit outside and chat". You say "No" again and feel good. But finally later she says "Lets go to my room" and for some reason you get this impulse in you and you say "What the hell. She won't ever know. Lets go."
At that time "satan" entered you. Just as he entered Judas. You agreed to sin. And once you agreed to it you went at it like cats in heat. Then aftewards? Repentence time.
So, my point is I agree with you - man can be very evil, can do good, can do bad, but when he lets that impulse take over it is unstoppable. I see what you mean, and my only real problem, is that you seem to be saying that once you have made the choice to do something wrong, you have no control. Which I disagree with, you can make the decision to do it, but until you have followed through with it, you can always stop and turn around. I may be miss understanding you however. Prophet speaks wrote:What does this have to do with femenine Holy Spirit energy? Heck if I know.
Me either, but sometime tangents are just as informative and useful as the topic. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Please keep tangents to a minimum though :) If you fancy discussing "Is it actually us that does what is Evil?" a bit more, a new topic would be sufficient :) *slaps the mod-be-good stick* Yahweh doesn't want religion anywhere near His most greatest sacrifice.
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Swalchy wrote:
Does sound a lot like trying to get 3 gods into 1, whilst sticking to a "we're monotheistic!" sentiment, and failing miserably
I couldn't stop the doublemint twins shouting in my brain: 3, 3, 3 gods in one... LOL ;-) “Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
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Shalom, When Elohim is creating or admonishing, He is the fatherly mode. When He came to earth in the flesh to be crucified, He came in the son mode, and at other times when Elohim works in unseen ways, He is in his spirit mode. This is what many Christians believe -- God has MPD... multiple personality disorder! Let's just think of Yahweh as One, and One who can be any or many if He chooses to. Should we limit Him? Does it matter? Let's focus on what we really know first, in that when He lives in us we shall love Him and each other as He loves us. And in so doing, we shall be living according to the 10 Commandments. That's our real challenge. The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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Prophet speaks wrote:edStueart – Leonard Nimoy to me is a practicing Kabbalist. Perhaps he is now, but I think he was a 'non-practicing-Orthodox' in the 1960's Prophet speaks wrote:His Vulcan “V” symbol is Kabbalah ritual right in front of your eyes. Hmm, the Messanic Congregation that I attend does it as part of the blessing at the end of worship on almost every Shabbat. Wiki wrote:Nimoy also devised the Vulcan Salute - a raised hand with palm forward, the fingers parted between the middle and ring finger - based on the traditional kohanic blessing, which is performed with both hands, thumb to thumb in this position: a position thought to represent the Hebrew letter shin (ש). (This letter is often used as a symbol of God in Judaism, as it is an abbreviation for one of God's names, El Shaddai. This usage is seen, for example, on every mezuzah.) Nimoy says he derived the accompanying spoken blessing, "Live long and prosper" from this source; the last phrase of the blessing is "May the Lord be forebearing unto you and give you peace" (Numbers 6:24-26) Click here for an article by a rabbi regarding the origins of this.Prophet speaks wrote:So anything he says I will take as coming from a mystical Satanic spin. Dude, those pointy ears are fake. His ears are not really shaped that way... ;-) "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." But first, it will piss you off!
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Shalom friends,
I was wondering if in the book of Genesis, was the Tree of Life a representation of Yahushua. Were they to eat the leafs and fruit of the Tree of Life as we are to eat and drink the flesh and blood of Yahushua. If Yahushua is the giver of life this seems reasonable, can anyone give more insight on this?
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TRUTH B-TOLD wrote:Shalom friends,
I was wondering if in the book of Genesis, was the Tree of Life a representation of Yahushua. Were they to eat the leafs and fruit of the Tree of Life as we are to eat and drink the flesh and blood of Yahushua. If Yahushua is the giver of life this seems reasonable, can anyone give more insight on this? I think its something seperate actually - When I was doing the document on why Todd Bentley was a fake, when he was at large last year, one of the things he taught was "God wants to give you the fruit of the tree of life, send it to us Lord"... but scripture said that the tree was to not be eaten until we are all sorted and it was all ok again. I will find it all a little later and paste it in. Our TinyChat meeting room is currently here: CLICK TO GOTO ROOM Password: "yadayahweh"
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Shalom Robskiwarrior,
When I posed the question of whether the tree of life was a type, figure, or representation of Yahushua, it was when our now bannished brother "prophet speaks" was questioning all things pertaining to the character of Elohim. Whether they are one or two or three or male or female, etc.,etc. What I came across that made me wonder and pose that question was "Prov.3:18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her." Here we have scripture that refers to Wisdom and the getting of understanding (3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.) as she and the tree of life. When we study wisdom in the scriptures it speaks of it in the manner of being femine and that she was present with Yahuweh from the beginning and those that take hold of her will receive all good and wonderful blessings. Sounds like Yahushua in the form of the Set Apart Spirt to me, I was going to try and show that if the tree of life was a figure of Yahushua and that wisdom is the tree of life, that would tie them together with both male and female characteristics, I hope some of this make sense. You can still post what you found on this, I'm always interested in others understanding of a precept. Thanks.
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bitnet wrote:Hello All,
Ron Wyatt's discovery of the Blood in Yeremyahu's Cave beneath Mt Moriah reveals that there are 22 autosomes and only 1 male chromosome instead of the usual 23 pairs. He also claimed that the tests show that the blood is still alive! If the Blood is indeed alive and that of our beloved Messiyah Yahushua, what keeps it alive? Keep this in mind and then try to figure out whether the Ruach Qodesh is masculine of feminine. The original language attributes a feminine quality and it is consistent with the nurturing nature of the Set-Apart Spirit, which emanating from Yahweh, never dies! And we do know that Yahweh is our heavenly Father, so it does keep in step with a Family concept in that the Set-Apart Spirit is seen as motherly and feminine. Because of this initial understanding all other man-made religions try to have their own holy families, trying to supplant the Creator with the creation. I didn't know about that discovery.
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Constitutionalist wrote:I didn't know about that discovery. Greetings and Welcome Ron, If you haven't found it already, the story is HEREMuch like some of Wyatt's other finds it seemed like this story was being covered up, this time by the Israeli government. I was really disappointed in this, I thought it would be awesome to have this discovery revealed. But not only was the story covered up, so was the site, now covered by a public park. Very disappointing. I thought it was the implications of Yahushua's blood that they wished to hide but then.... I was listening to a story, this week, about Israel's readiness to rebuild the Temple and resume sacrifices (can't remember where I found the story), the interviewee said everything was ready, they even knew the location of the Arc. So, perhaps they weren't covering it up, just delaying/hiding It until the time was right. And I think that is correct, It is not something that should be paraded around the world as an artifact. It should be returned to the Temple. ( Not that it will get the respect it deserves there :() But that is God's plan, who am I to complain. “Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
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Concerning the ark of the covenant in the final (Millennial) Temple: Quote:And what about the Ark itself? Will that be hauled up and placed in the new Holy of Holies? No. Yahweh has kept His promise; it has served its purpose. There will be no more blood sprinkled upon the mercy seat. Yahshua is an impossible act to follow, especially if you’re a bull or a goat. The very man who apparently secreted the Ark out of the Holy of Holies and hid it beneath Mount Moriah wrote: “‘It shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,’ says Yahweh, ‘that they will say no more, “The ark of the covenant of Yahweh.” It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore. At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of Yahweh, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of Yahweh, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts. In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.’” (Jeremiah 3:14-18) The Ark will be neither essential temple ritual furniture, nor museum attraction, nor the object of legendary quests. Jeremiah specifically says that no one will even make a replica of it during the Millennium. In the light of Yahshua’s presence, it will simply be forgotten. From Future History, Chapter 27 kp
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Shalom, Yes, I remember that passage, Ken, but I was also wondering if it does not preclude the Israelis from digging it up to restore it in the 3rd Temple. Perhaps after all the wars that follow that Temple restoration and The Return of The King would the Ark be relegated to the annals of history and inquired after no more. Meanwhile, the Temple implements are already ready, the "Red Heifer" may have been spotted (no pun intended), the Kohanim may have been identified and all that remains is the political will... which is not strong at the moment but which will gather strength when the Deal is made to trade more land for "peace". The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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That, to me, sounds like the least likely scenario of all. How could Israel find the ark during the Tribulation, only to forget all about it within seven short years? A replica, maybe; the real thing (with the blood of Yahshua all over it) I don't think so.
kp
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kp, Your Jeremiah 3 cite, wow. It continues (KJV).... Quote: 19But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me. 20Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith Yahweh. 21A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten Yahweh their God. 22Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art Yahweh our God. 23Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in Yahweh our God is the salvation of Israel. A few things jump out -- a) thou shalt call me My father (abba, not LORD) v19; b) spiritual adultery v20; c) in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills v21. Is this a reference to Rome, or is there other history being referred to here?
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Quote:c) in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills v21. Is this a reference to Rome, or is there other history being referred to here? I believe this is primarily a reference to the "high places" mentioned previously. Also, "mountains" refers to political power, another source of false hope. In other words, the "hills" are the venues for worshiping false gods: Ba'al, Zeus, Allah, and Washington D.C. aren't going to be any help in the long run. kp
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I, too, find a hidden meaning here: Exodus 20:12 Honour thy Father and thy Mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. I belief His Holy Spirit is feminine and to consider Her our Mother. Yahweh desires to have a Family. He patterned the flesh after His wishes and a family consists of a father, mother and children. Why would you think His Spiritual Family would look any different? John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that Worship Him must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. Isaiah 55:8 For My Thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My Ways, saith YHWH. You can't think in the flesh and apply it to our Creator who thinks in Spirit. We are limited but He is not. He, also, can not be "boxed" into a "trinity". Yeshua was the First Born of many Sons and Daughters. Our Father desires to have a large Family and not just "three" Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."They" were created in His Spiritual image, male and female combined as one. It was only later He seperates this spiritual image into the fleshly reality. Genesis 2:21-24 And YHWH God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which YHWH God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Marriage between a man and a woman is again making them "one" flesh as it was before they were seperated. Heavenly spiritual things patterned here on earth in the flesh. Here's something I like to think about: Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children... How was fleshly woman to bring forth childen before this? Possibly "And YHWH God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Woman, and she slept... " Just a thought ... but don't you love to think upon these mysteries?!! Malachi 3:16-18 Then they that feared YHWH spake often one to another: and YHWH hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared YHWH, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith YHWH of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that Worship Him must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
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