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Rank: Moderator  Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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http://www.questioningpaul.com/
This the url. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Member
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All the talk about Paul has me doubting his student, Luke, who wrote Acts. Someone please help me reconcile Matthew 27 Quote: 3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4"I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." 5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me." with Acts 1 Quote: 18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) Quotations are NIV. The Acts verses are in parentheses -- does this mean they weren't in the original manuscript, but were an editorial add at some point in history?
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Rank: Moderator
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There is actually no pre-Constantinian manuscripts of either Acts Chapter 1 or Matthew 27, so I really wouldn't bother about any apparent contradiction between what Matthew wrote, and what Luke wrote, as we have no reliable evidence of either. I also wouldn't doubt Luke's historical reliability either. He hasn't let anything influence the history accounts that he wrote Yahweh doesn't want religion anywhere near His most greatest sacrifice.
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Rank: Ekklesia  Joined: 10/3/2007 Posts: 1,183 Points: 2,998 Location: São Paulo, Brazil
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I'm inclined to believe that Judas gave the money back to the priests who then bought the field because of Exodus 21:32 "If the ox gores a male or female servant, he is to give to their master thirty sheqels of silver, and the ox is stoned." And the parenthesis of Acts 1:18-19 is reminiscent of John 21:19 regarding a note of Peter's death, which CW begs to differ on the interpretation of this John passage.
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Rank: Member
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Craig writes in the Anomos chapter, pg 29 when discussing Acts 15:
"And while we’ve come to expect imprecision in Paul’s letters to the Galatians, Thessalonians, and Corinthians, these mistakes were recorded in the book of Acts, now causing it to be suspect as well."
So are just some parts of Acts questionable?
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Rank: Moderator
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Unfortunately, most of Acts 15 (actually, most of Acts itself) isn't extant in Pre-Constantine manuscripts. Only fragments of verses 2-7, 19-27, 38-41 are extant, so most of what is said outside of these verses should be looked upon with great suspicion. Yahweh doesn't want religion anywhere near His most greatest sacrifice.
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Rank: Member  Joined: 9/8/2009 Posts: 73 Points: 240 Location: NY
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Hey guys I have not read all the available chapters yet and I know that Craig addresses this in the book somewhere. I wanted to know what you guys take on this was from thewaytoyahweh II Petros 3:16:
Therefore, for this reason and for this purpose, beloved and esteemed, dearly loved and highly regarded ones, anxiously expecting and waiting for, looking for and anticipating these things, be active and zealous, quick and assiduous, earnest and diligent, endeavour and be devoted, eager and in a hurry to make every effort to be found and discovered, observed and recognised, detected and learned about, understood and become known through enquiry and examination, thought and scrutiny, investigation and perception by Him to be within and inside peace and tranquillity, harmony and concord, security and safety, prosperity and freedom, exemption from chaos, felicity and the assurance of salvation, being without defect and spotless and clean, pure, free from corruption and without blemish, guiltless and faultless. And think and consider, seem and deem, reckon and regard the patience and endurance, forbearance and perseverance, steadfastness and restraint of our Sovereign Master* to be as deliverance and preservation, salvation and safety, just as and exactly as our beloved and esteemed, dearly loved and highly regarded brother and fellow brethren Paul* also wrote and inscribed, recorded and composed to all of you in accordance with and with regards to, in relation to and with respect to the wisdom and intelligence, knowledge, sophistication and insight that has been given and granted, supplied and furnished, bestowed and delivered, committed and permitted, extended and presented to him. Consequently and as a result, within and inside all individual and collective letters, messages and epistles speaking, chatting and talking about and concerning, regarding and on account of, because of and with respect to these things within and inside them, within and inside them are some certain things that are and exist as difficult to understand and hard to comprehend, which the uneducated and ignorant, stupid and unlearned, those without knowledge, and weak and unsteady, unstable and unsupported ones twist and distort, pervert and screw up, torture and wrench apart, just as, like and similar to their customary way they do to the rest of the remaining writings of Scripture, to the advantage of their own individual destruction and complete and utter ruin and waste, obliteration and annihilation. Then and therefore, accordingly, consequently and these things beings so, beloved and esteemed, dearly loved and highly regarded ones, as all of you have come to know and understand, perceive and realise, notice and discern, discover and observe, experience and ascertain, learn about and distinguish, judge and think about, comprehend, acknowledge and recognise this beforehand and in advance, keep and guard, hold on to and retain, attend to and maintain, keep an eye on and watch over, preserve and protect yourselves, so that and in order that all of you are not accommodated or led away, deceived or carried away in the same error and delusion, deceit and deception, corruption and fraudulence, sin and perversion, wickedness, vacillation and seduction of the abandoned and irreverent, undesirable and destitute, impious and disloyal, profane and ungodly, so falling off and perishing, failing and passing away, disappearing, losing and becoming invalidated from your own individual foundation and firmness, position and security, safety and fixed support, steadfastness and perseverance and stability, establishment and sustainment. On the other hand, continuously grow and increase, be amplified and magnified in, by and with the grace and joy, delight and thanks, favour and charm, goodwill and sweetness, pleasure, mercy and loving kindness, and knowledge, perception and discernment, intellectual understanding and insight of our Sovereign Master*, and our Deliverer and Preserver, Protector, Saviour and Rescuer, Yahushua* the Anointed Messiah*. To Him be the glory and splendour, magnificence and excellence, pre-eminence and dignity, brightness, grace and majesty both now, at this present time, and to the day and time, age and season of eternity. Yes, truly this is a firm and reliable statement of truth
Some in the christian community are using this as a basis of considering Paul's writings scripture. Especially when he says:
"just as, like and similar to their customary way they do to the rest of the remaining writings of Scripture"
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Rank: Moderator  Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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Marcus, while I'm not a Greek shoaler, and if Swalchy tells me this is wrong I will defer to him, but as I understand it the word translated Scripture here is grapho, which is the Greek word for writings in general. It is used to describe Scripture many times, but other times it simply means writing. I believe the context dictates the proper translation, in this case Peter is speaking of Paul's letters as being difficult to understand, and comprehend, in light of Psalm 19:7, as well as other places, it is hard to think that Peter would be saying that Scripture is difficult to understand and comprehend. Where as if the word is translated writings, he would be saying that Paul's other writings are also hard to understand and comprehend. I could be wrong, but I believe that, that is Craig's argument. I would be interested in hearing Swalchy's thoughts on it however, I know practically no Greek. wrote:“Yahuweh’s (YaHuWeH’s) Towrah (towrah – law and prescriptions for living) is complete and entirely perfect (tamym – without defect, lacking nothing, correct, sound, genuine, right, helpful, healthful, beneficial, and true), returning, restoring, and transforming (suwb – turning around) the soul (nepesh – consciousness). Yahuweh’s testimony is trustworthy and reliable (‘aman – verifiable, confirming, supportive, and establishing), making understanding and obtaining wisdom (hakam – educating and enlightening oneself to the point of comprehension) simple for the open-minded.” (Psalm 19:7) Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Member
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It's difficult to discuss with those who read one verse and stop. If they would continue to the very next verse, verse 17, they would see: Quote:17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. lawless, like, WITHOUT TORAH.
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Rank: Administration  Joined: 6/29/2007 Posts: 3,315 Points: 5,704
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As I read through the new material, I came across this citation. Craig wrote: Quote:Yahweh said that the crime of diminishing the use of His name was punishable by death and separation (in Leviticus 24:9-16), whereas the Rabbis said that the use of Yahweh’s name was a crime punishable by death. It is why Rabbis replaced Yahweh’s name with "Lord," under the guise that it was "too sacred to say." Yet, when I looked up the passage, it didn't seem to clearly convey this: Quote:Leviticus 24:9-16 (New Living Translation)
9 The loaves of bread will belong to Aaron and his descendants, who must eat them in a sacred place, for they are most holy. It is the permanent right of the priests to claim this portion of the special gifts presented to the Lord.”
An Example of Just Punishment
10 One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father came out of his tent and got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. 11 During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the Name of the Lord[a] with a curse. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. 12 They kept the man in custody until the Lord’s will in the matter should become clear to them. 13 Then the Lord said to Moses, 14 “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard the curse to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. 15 Say to the people of Israel: Those who curse their God will be punished for their sin. 16 Anyone who blasphemes the Name of the Lord must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any native-born Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the Name of the Lord must be put to death. Can anyone shed some light on exactly what this "blasphemy" of the Name was? Thanks. If you'd like to join the YY Study Group room on Paltalk - just click here. The lockword is: yadayahweh You can download the free software here. Hope to see everyone on Paltalk! WARNING: Do not give out personal information (name, address, etc.) to anyone on Paltalk - ever!
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Joined: 7/4/2007 Posts: 1,267 Points: 3,312 Location: England
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James wrote:Marcus, while I'm not a Greek scholar, and if Swalchy tells me this is wrong I will defer to him, but as I understand it the word translated Scripture here is grapho, which is the Greek word for writings in general. It is used to describe Scripture many times, but other times it simply means writing. Grapho/γραφω would be the Greek verb meaning "to write, inscribe, compose, note down." The word here in 2 Peter 3:16 is the feminine noun graphe/γραφη meaning "writing, composition, Scripture, inscription, written characters". The noun graphe/γραφη does indeed come from grapho/γραφω however :) The most confusing thing about 2 Peter 3:16 is the word used that I've translated as "the rest of the remaining", a translation of the Greek λοιπος/loipos meaning "the rest, remaining". As Craig mentions, if Peter had want to say " other Scriptures" (the way most English translations 'translate' λοιπος/loipos), there are two other viable Greek words to indicate "other": αλλος/allos which means "another/different thing of the same kind" (eg., a red rose is different to a white rose, but they are both roses), or ετερος/heteros which means "another/different thing of a separate kind" (eg., a lion is different to a human, for a lion is a feline and the man is a homo-sapien). Neither of these are used, so "other" isn't being used in this sentence at all. So, "the rest of the remaining writings of Scripture" would probably be translated more accurately as "the rest of the actual writings of Scripture" to make the distinction between the non-Scripture Pauline letters compared to the TP&P. Quote:I believe the context dictates the proper translation, in this case Peter is speaking of Paul's letters as being difficult to understand, and comprehend, in light of Psalm 19:7, as well as other places, it is hard to think that Peter would be saying that Scripture is difficult to understand and comprehend. I'm 99.999999% confident that the "the same way they do" isn't in reference to the "hard to understand" section of the statement, but to the "which the unlearned and unstable twist ... to their own destruction". Peter's point isn't that the TP&P are hard to understand, but that unlearned and unsteady people twist and distort the message contained in the TP&P to their own destruction :) Either way, there is nothing in 2 Peter 2:15-16 that even remotely refers to Paul's writings as "inspired Scripture". That would only be Christian twisting and distortion of the Apostle Peter's words :) Yahweh doesn't want religion anywhere near His most greatest sacrifice.
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Rank: Moderator  Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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Yada the Hebrew word that is translated Blasphemy here is naqab, Craig does a good job of discussing in the context of the Lev. verse in the Shav' Chapter. Shav' Desolation wrote:According to God, doing these things is a sin. He said so in Leviticus: "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Whoever curses (qalal) his God shall bear his sin. And whoever blasphemes (naqab) the name of Yahuweh shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him, the stranger as well as him who is born in the land. When he blasphemes (naqab) the name of Yahuweh, he shall be put to death." (Leviticus 24:15-16) Yahuweh is being very specific here. Anyone who speaks lightly of God (Hebrew Elohim, the general designation for deity), anyone who would make God an insignificant part of his or her life or diminish Him in their minds, has sinned and will face the consequence of their error. By refusing to take God seriously, they "shall bear (literally lift or carry) their chet, crimes or offenses." Blasphemy (naqab), however, is an extremely grave offense, an unforgivable act that leads directly to death. Naqab, means: "to violently pierce a person’s hand, to strike them through and cause pain" which is precisely what the Jews did to their Messiah. Naqab also means "to libel or slander," and thus when used in reference to Yahuweh, naqab is equivalent to shaw - meaning the preaching or advocacy of false teaching, politics, or religion concerning God. Being religious in opposition to Yahweh - libeling Him in writing or slandering Him verbally, is seen as an act of extreme violence that leads to death. This penalty was to be carried out by "the congregation," that is, the children of Israel in their theocratic assembly. The instructions were delivered to Yisra’el at the time and place of revelation. So don’t get carried away. While Yahuweh will enforce His death penalty on those who substituted Constantine’s religion for Yahushua’s relationship, those who etched His name out of His Scriptures and relaced it with Baal’s, and those who replaced His perscriptions with the laws those found in the Talmud and Catachisms, we are not to stone such false teachers. Instead, we can kill the message and crucify the messenger by exposing and repudiating them. We can shine the light of truth on the darkness of their deceptions. But most importantly, the lesson is clear. The difference between qalal and naqab is that of spiritual indifference vs. false teaching. The first merely hurts us; the second kills all those around us - something Yahuweh cannot tolerate. There is one more passage worthy of our consideration on this subject. "I am Yahuweh. You shall not profane (chalal - pierce, wound, cause to die, or defile, taint, besmirch, sully, tarnish, and corrupt) My Set Apart (qodesh) name." (Leviticus 22:31-32) Yahuweh’s name was pierced when Yahushua was nailed to the pole. It is defiled when it is replaced with LORD, and it is besmirched, sullied, tarnished and corrupted by the religious revisions of men. God does not want us to do those things. Hosea concludes the 12th chapter on theme: "But by a prophet Yahuweh lifted up Yisra’el from Mitsrayim (the crucible and/or Egypt). And by a prophet he was kept safe, cared for and preserved. Ephraim has provoked to bitter sorrow and grieving, so the Master (‘adonay) will forsake (natash - reject, abandon, cease having a relationship with, desert, leave) him. His bloodguilt (dam - death) is on him. I will return his reproach (cherpah - contempt, scorn, insults, taunts, and slurs)." (Hosea 12:13-14) Ephraim, representing ten of Yisra’el’s twelve tribes, had been rejected by Yahuweh for the crime of shaw’. It would lead to the spiritual death of the nation. It is another example of where translations do not do a word justice. Swalchy thanks for the elaboration on the 2 Peter verse. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Administration  Joined: 6/29/2007 Posts: 3,315 Points: 5,704
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Thanks, James. If you'd like to join the YY Study Group room on Paltalk - just click here. The lockword is: yadayahweh You can download the free software here. Hope to see everyone on Paltalk! WARNING: Do not give out personal information (name, address, etc.) to anyone on Paltalk - ever!
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Rank: Moderator  Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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Yada wrote:Thanks, James. I aim to please. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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And you always seem to succeed. So, thanks.
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Rank: Moderator  Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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RidesWithYah wrote:And you always seem to succeed. So, thanks. I do my best. Thanks Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Member  Joined: 9/8/2009 Posts: 73 Points: 240 Location: NY
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Has anyone come across this before http://www.justgivemethe...mmunication_of_paul.htm more importantly has anyone confirmed the validity of the claims.
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Rank: Member
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Marcus, Good find. Another article on that website is titled "The Problem with Paul" by C.M. which was interesting. Link http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/problem.htm
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Rank: Moderator  Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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i'm trying to find a book to verify the claims in that article Marcus, if it is true, it will make a great addition to QP. Mike, i read that article earlier today, I think it does a really good job as well of debunking Paul. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 9/7/2008 Posts: 515 Points: 1,368
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Jesus Words Only puts this together nicely. The Ebionites (The Poor) lead by Zaddik ((the Just One) aka James the Just) are postulated as being the writers or preservers of the DSS. The chapter LINK IS HERE and a taste of the writing below: From Jesus Words Only:Quote:A Fortuitous Discovery of Ebionite Writings?
Or is that all that we now have from the Ebionites? Did the world recently discover a treasure trove of their writings from which we can objectively measure their orthodoxy? A good argument has been recently made by Professor Eisenman in James: The Brother of Jesus that we have recovered some of the Ebionites’ writings among the Dead Sea Scrolls. How so? Many of the sectarian works at the Dead Sea are written by a group who in Hebrew call themselves the Ebyonim or Ebion—The Poor. They even describe themselves as the “Congregation of the Poor.”4 The Poor of the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) claimed to be followers of “The Way,” part of “The New Covenant” who found the “Messiah” who is called the “Prince of the Congregation” and “Teacher of Righteousness.” He is gone, killed at the urging of the priests at Jerusalem. After the departure of the Messiah (who will return), the temporal leader who led the Poor was called the Just One, i.e., Zaddik in Hebrew. Furthermore, their leader—the Zaddik—is in a struggle against the “Spouter of Lies” who seeks to seduce the New Covenant community from following the Law of Moses. The Poor (Ebion) reject the idea Habakkuk 2:4 means justification is by faith and insist its meaning is “justification by faithfulness.” The DSS Ebion have two works called “Justification by Works” which reaffirm their rejection of the position of the “Spouter of Lies.”
When we compare the Ebion of the Dead Sea Scrolls to what Eusebius describes as the Ebionites, the similarities are striking. The Christian sect of Ebionites seem to match the writings of the Poor (Ebyonim, Ebion) whose writings were found at the Dead Sea site of Qumram. These Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) reflect ideas and thoughts that are unmistakably Christian.5 The question is whether the writings of The Poor found at Qumram pre-date or post-date Christ.
Unfortunately, this cannot be done by carbon dating the papers found at the Dead Sea. Such dates only tell us the date of the age of the paper. Carbon dating can not tell us the date of the writing on the paper. Yet, we have other reliable means to identify the date of the activity of the people whose writings were preserved at Qumram. Fifty-seven to sixty-nine percent of all the coins in the Dead Sea caves are from the period 44-69 A.D.—part of the Christian era. Thus, the only way to know whether Christians or non-Christians wrote these writings is to study the words on the pages of the DSS. Professor Eisenman finds significant proof the Dead Sea Ebyonim is a Christian group. For example, in the DSS, the temporal ruler of the Ebion who succeeds the killed Messiah (who will return) is called the Zaddik. Numerous ancient sources outside the DSS identify James the Just (the brother of Jesus) as The Zaddik. Translated, this means Just One. Jerome by the 400s will call him James the Just. In Christian writings of that era, the name of James was rarely used. He was merely called the Zaddik or Just One.6 As we saw previously, James—the Zaddik—was the first bishop of Jerusalem after Jesus’ resurrection.7 So is it then mere coincidence that the head of the Ebion of the Dead Sea Scrolls is called the Zaddik? Of course not. Professor Eisenman appears to have stumbled upon a major discovery.
If Professor Eisenman is correct, this means the Ebionites in Eusebius’ writings are the Jerusalem Church under James. What Professor Eisenman then notes to corroborate this idea is that Paul refers twice to sending money to the poor at Jerusalem. Eisenman says this just as easily could be The Poor. (Rom. 15:26; Gal. 2:9-10.) If we translate back Paul’s words into Hebrew, he was saying The Ebion of Jerusalem was the name of the church under James. They were the Congregation of the Poor, just like we might call a church The Lighthouse Church. We do not see Paul’s intent due to case size in the standard text which changes The Poor into the poor.8
What heightens the probability Professor Eisenman is correct is recent archaeology. The initial hypothesis was that the DSS were exclusively the writings of an Essene sect from the 200 B.C. era. This idea recently crumbled in 2004. Golb’s contrary hypothesis that the DSS came from the Temple at Jerusalem between 65-70 A.D. has now been strongly confirmed by extensive archaeological digs under auspices of Israeli universities. These digs proved there was no community site of monks at Qumram. It was a clay plate factory. The initial inference of a large community of monks from the presence of a large number of plates misinterpreted the evidence. Second, we can now infer the scrolls were hidden in the mountains to protect the scrolls, and not because a large community had been involved in copying activity. In fact, archaeology now proves there was no copy center or Scriptorum, as originally claimed. None of the metal clips copyists use to guide copying were found at Qumram. A few ordinary pens and numerous coins were found. Yet, no metal clips of copyists. Not even a fragment of one! The very nature of the scrolls likewise demonstrate that no monkish community was engaged in copying them. The Dead Sea Scrolls, it turns out, are not only an eclectic collection of sectarian materials but also a cache with numerous copies of the Bible texts. This is just what one would expect to find from the Temple Library at Jerusalem had it been secreted away in advance of the Roman troops seiging Jerusalem prior to 70 A.D. The Essenes would not be expected, by contrast, to preserve several opposing strains of sectarian writings. One such strain is the writings of The Poor—The Ebion. On the other hand, we would expect to find Jewish Rabbis at Jerusalem wanting to keep copies of Christian writings for informational purposes at the Library of the Temple of Jerusalem. We would expect to find records of sectarian differences maintained by such a library. Golb’s argument has now essentially been vindicated. Golb made a scholarly case that the DSS are writings that were taken from the Temple at Jerusalem during the years of the Roman siege that finally prevailed in 70 A.D. Hiding them in these caves preserved them from the torches which in the end destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. after a long siege.9 Thus, recent archaeological discoveries at Qumram establish that many of the documents can be potentially prepared in the Christian-era. We no longer are forced to disregard the Christian character of certain writings merely because of the Essene hypothesis which strangled DSS studies until now. Among the newer writings in the DSS, we find some in Hebrew written by a group calling itself The Poor—The Ebion. This transliterates very well as The Ebionites.10 “Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
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Rank: Member  Joined: 9/8/2009 Posts: 73 Points: 240 Location: NY
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 370 Points: 1,116 Location: Philadelphia
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James wrote:I think it does a really good job as well of debunking Paul. It is a pretty good article. The author does in 6,000 words what CW does in half-a-million words! "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." But first, it will piss you off!
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Rank: Moderator  Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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edStueart wrote:It is a pretty good article. The author does in 6,000 words what CW does in half-a-million words! Yeah, but Craig is a lot more in depth. Also a part of the job of QP is to show the horrid inaccuracy of English translations, and that cause it to become a bit longer. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Member
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Based heavily on what I learned here and JWO, here's a compilation I put together. (WARNING: NIV Ahead!)
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RidesWithYah, I've briefly read your booklet and am very thankful for this resource. In the things I've been trying to absorb - CW's QP, JWO, these other resources mentioned here (just give me the truth) - it gets overwhelming. There is such a tremendous need for succinct information! I often feel I need a "diminished version" of CW's writings. Anyway, your booklet clearly points out the relationship between Paul and Balaam and the interesting point about the tribe of Benjamin. I need this type of resource as "beginner" information for Christian family and friends who are comfortable with the NIV - and as a kind of a "hook" to snatch them out of the fog of mainstream Christian teaching/thinking. Thanks to all here who are continuing to provide great resources/links and share your scholarship.
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Rank: Member
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Glad you found it helpful, Dan, thanks for the encouraging words. I've really struggled with whether to use the NIV -- it's so familiar to so many, it seems to help to persuade people from their "own" scriptures. Arguing name corrections and translation errors gets things off track so easily. On the other hand, I don't want to perpetuate the substitutions and corruptions of His name. So which is the lesser of two evils? I don't think one answer fits all situations, so I try to make both resources available. Some have suggested putting a corrected text parallel with the NIV, and I think that's a good idea; I'm just struggling with how to do that and keep it "succinct". In His Love, RWY.
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Rank: Member
Joined: 6/10/2008 Posts: 352 Points: 681
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Another thought I've thought: We typically think (or are taught) that all of the early "church" stuff happened kind of all at once; or that the Gospels were written first, then Paul came along and clarified, corrected, and "fixed" what they wrote; establishing the "true" gospel for the "church age". BUT -- almost every credible source I find (and the catholic church, too) dates John's writings, including his letters (1,2,3 John), his "gospel" (John), and the Revelation as much later, 85-95 AD. (John died around 96 AD, Paul was beheaded ~68AD). So from John's vantage point, writing 50-60 years after the resurrection, and 20-30 years after Paul's letters, he had every opportunity to affirm Paul's version as the "true" gospel. He doesn't. He affirms Yahshua's message for salvation (John 15:1-17), calls those who teach against Yah's commandments liars (1 John 2:1-8) and antichrist (2 John 1:5-11). And of course, the points in Revelation pointed directly at Paul already discussed. John's gospel talks about Yahshua's actions on the Sabbath (Chapters 5, 7, 9); and gives us confirmation that the annual sabbath (Unleavened Bread) was a "high Sabbath", meaning it fell on the 7th day Sabbath, in the year he was crucified, fixing the date at 33AD (John 19:31). Yah had a reason for letting one live to an old age, although the rest of the apostles gave their lives to prove that what they said was true. Hallelu-Yah!
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Rank: Moderator
Joined: 7/4/2007 Posts: 1,267 Points: 3,312 Location: England
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Sorry to burst the bubble of the JWO followers, and those who have been persuaded by the picking and choosing that the author of JWO has done of Eisenman's work, but the Carbon dating (which, contrary to the author of JWO, can be done on the animal skins that the DSS were written on to an accurate dating - where does he get the term "papers" from?) has shown that the manuscripts that Eisenman wanted to be from the 1st Century CE, are actually from between the 2nd-1st century BCE. Hence why Eisenman doesn't quote the findings in the book that the author of JWO refers to: The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered. Source 1. Source 2. Source 3 (go to page 137 for this one). Also, the author of JWO hasn't been honest in pointing out what else Eisenman says concerning the "Ebion" of the "Dead Sea". According to Eisenman, as noted throughout his book The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered, "Jesus" was actually a leader of the Zealot Jewish Sect, and after he died his brother James took over the mantel. He also claims that as the leader of the Zealots, James was the one who instigated the attack against the Romans in 66CE that eventually resulted in the Romans destroying the Temple as prophesied by "Jesus". According to Eisenman's description of the "Ebion" at Qumran, they were in fact a Militant, Xenophobic, Anti-Foreigner, vindictive, and aggressively hostile Jewish Sect who were elitist in that they were the "true Israel" and Gentiles were not welcome. In case you hadn't noticed, this isn't an, as the author of JWO would have us believe, a "striking similarity" between the "Ebion" of Qumran and Eusebius' description of the Ebionites (which the author of JWO doesn't even quote at all, btw. Well if he does, it's no where near whereh he's talking about it). Eusebius' description of the Ebionites can be found here, Chapter 27. The "pick and choose" way of the author of JWO is getting to be extremely irritating, and I am surprised that no one here appears to have even attempted to confirm whether what the author of JWO says is true. It took me less than an hour to prove that he wasn't in this regard, and also show that he is a deceiver who isn't giving his readers the full picture of those "scholars" he refers to. Yahweh doesn't want religion anywhere near His most greatest sacrifice.
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 9/7/2008 Posts: 515 Points: 1,368
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Swalchy wrote:and I am surprised that no one here appears to have even attempted to confirm whether what the author of JWO says is true. It took me less than an hour to prove that he wasn't in this regard, and also show that he is a deceiver who isn't giving his readers the full picture of those "scholars" he refers to Swalchy, I stand guilty of offering this text without subjecting it to a scholarly vetting. In my defense, I did not understand that to be the standard for this site, I offered it to stimulate the discussion at hand. To hold this theory (JWO) or any other theory, as truth is dangerous. As soon as we accept any theory as truth, we close our minds to new ideas. I sense this attitude in the sources you provide. And even with your rebuttal, I still do not see how JWO has been destroyed. JWO said it was not possible to carbon date the ink. I agree this is a specious argument since it is unlikely they would use 200 year old hides to write on. But the source you provide states that only 8 DSS documents were tested and did not indicate if any of these were the later documents in question. That some of the documents were older is in keeping with the JWO theory of Qumran being a hiding place for the documents, not a scribal community. Is it wrong to take a piece of a theory out of the whole (as JWO took pieces of Eisenman) and use it elsewhere? I remember Craig saying that he has used an authors research for the facts he provides, even though the authors conclusions are wrong. It seems to me that JWO has taken 'facts' from various sources and built them into a compelling argument. Swalchy, I recognize your superior background in this matter, please help me understand your issues with JWO. “Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 370 Points: 1,116 Location: Philadelphia
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Swalchy wrote:Sorry to burst the bubble of the JWO followers Who is JWO? Sorry, I lost track of the meaning of this TLA. (Three Letter Acronym) "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." But first, it will piss you off!
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Rank: Moderator
Joined: 7/4/2007 Posts: 1,267 Points: 3,312 Location: England
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In His Name wrote:Swalchy, I stand guilty of offering this text without subjecting it to a scholarly vetting. In my defense, I did not understand that to be the standard for this site, I offered it to stimulate the discussion at hand. To hold this theory (JWO) or any other theory, as truth is dangerous. As soon as we accept any theory as truth, we close our minds to new ideas. I sense this attitude in the sources you provide. Unfortunately IHN, I have seen numerous people on here quote things from JWO or at least mention it in their posts, who don't appear to be testing what is said in JWO, but taking it as absolute truth. Whether this is my misinterpretation of people's posts or not, I don't know, but others I have talked to have also come to a similar conclusion. Regardless, the sources I referred to had actually read Eisenman's books, but found them wanting. Geza Vermes even quoted from it numerous times and also pointed out that Eisenman hadn't noted the results of the Carbon dating of the Qumran manuscripts. One of Eisenmans core theories is that the non-Scriptural scrolls found in the Qumran-caves all come from the same people who wrote them in the first century CE (specifically in the midst of the first century CE). So convinced was he that Eisenman got the Institut fur Mittelenergiephysik at Zurich to Carbon date some of the non-Scriptural manuscripts, expecting them to come back as being definitely from the first century CE, and therefore prove his theory. Unfortunately for Eisenman, the Carbon dating of the parchments didn't come back as he wanted, and actually showed them to be Pre-First Century CE, not from teh first century CE. Therefore Eisenman's theory that the texts speaking of the "The Zaddic" and "The man of lies" are talking of James/Ya'qob and Paul are wrong, for they were written before Ya'qob and Paul even existed. Quote:And even with your rebuttal, I still do not see how JWO has been destroyed. The Author of JWO picked and chose what to say about Eisenman's work, and failed to give a full picture to the reader of why Eisenman thought that the Qumran documents were about Ya'qob and Paul. And the things that he chose from Eisenman's work as "truth" turned out to be quite false. Geza Vermes (source 1 above) released that document in 1992, 18 years ago. If I found it quite easily, then the author of JWO must surely, if he wasn't just being plain biased, been able to find it and read it as well. Quote:JWO said it was not possible to carbon date the ink. I'm pretty sure that JWO is wrong on this one actually. I recall reading somewhere that they had been developing ways of being able to date the ink used on old manuscripts. Obviously not perfected just yet. Quote:I agree this is a specious argument since it is unlikely they would use 200 year old hides to write on. But the source you provide states that only 8 DSS documents were tested and did not indicate if any of these were the later documents in question. It actually says 14 were from "the Judean Desert" which includes the DSS, the other Qumran texts, and also those from Nahal HEver, Masda, and Wadi Murabba'at, all of which are grouped together as one, with the non-Scriptural scrolls agreed to have come from the same people. Quote:That some of the documents were older is in keeping with the JWO theory of Qumran being a hiding place for the documents, not a scribal community. Many scholar's agree with that, so that really isn't new or of any real prevalence. In fact, The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible states, "[A]ll scholars agree that none of the biblical texts [were] actually composed at Qumran; on the contrary, they all originated before the Qumran period." Think most are agreed, however, that the non-Scriptural scrolls were written by the people who did indeed live at Qumran. Quote:Is it wrong to take a piece of a theory out of the whole (as JWO took pieces of Eisenman) and use it elsewhere? I remember Craig saying that he has used an authors research for the facts he provides, even though the authors conclusions are wrong. It seems to me that JWO has taken 'facts' from various sources and built them into a compelling argument. Unfortunately, what JWO has taken from Eisenman (from which he has created an 8-page argument) has turned out to not be facts at all. What I despise most of all, is stating things as "facts" when they aren't, regardless of conclusion. If the author of JWO hasn't been honest here, what exactly is there to persuade me that he hasn't done the same thing elsewhere in his book? Quote:Swalchy, I recognize your superior background in this matter, please help me understand your issues with JWO. lol, whilst I appreciate the compliment, I unfortunately don't agree that I have a superior anything with regards to looking up things. I'll admit that I haven't read all that much of JWO, but there are currently better things for me to do and read, and I trust that the people on here are going to be doing their usual digging around to find out whether the words of JWO are true or not. All I can suggest is that when JWO quotes from something, you read at least 2 to 3 chapters before and after the quote he has quoted. I noticed he started an argument based on James chapter 2, but didn't mention James Chapter 1 at all and why he was omitting making any mention of it. He eventually gets to James chapter 1, but only quotes about 6 verses from it, in a cut-n-paste fashion. edStuart wrote:Who is JWO? More "what" than "who" :) - JWO = Jesus' Words Only = www.jesuswordsonly.com/Yahweh doesn't want religion anywhere near His most greatest sacrifice.
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Rank: Ekklesia  Joined: 10/3/2007 Posts: 1,183 Points: 2,998 Location: São Paulo, Brazil
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What's CW's take on 2 Peter 3:15, what does he think about it?
Swalchy's translation:
"And think and consider, seem and deem, reckon and regard the patience and endurance, forbearance and perseverance, steadfastness and restraint of our Sovereign Master* to be as deliverance and preservation, salvation and safety, just as and exactly as our beloved and esteemed, dearly loved and highly regarded brother and fellow brethren Paul* also wrote and inscribed, recorded and composed to all of you in accordance with and with regards to, in relation to and with respect to the wisdom and intelligence, knowledge, sophistication and insight that has been given and granted, supplied and furnished, bestowed and delivered, committed and permitted, extended and presented to him, as, like and similar to the way he does within and inside all his individual and collective letters, messages and epistles, speaking, chatting and talking about and concerning, regarding and on account of, because of and with respect to these things within and inside them."
ISR:
"...and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him,"
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Rank: Moderator  Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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Matt Craig covers that in the Kataginosko chapter of QP. http://questioningpaul.c...cted_and_Condemned.Paul
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Ekklesia  Joined: 10/3/2007 Posts: 1,183 Points: 2,998 Location: São Paulo, Brazil
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Thanks James, the Google search bar didn't seem to really work.
Another question, CW has ""Consider (hegeomai – think about and regard, be directed and guided by, be counseled and led by) the degree which (kathos – accordingly) the Upright One (KY – Yahuweh) steadfastly forebears (makrothumai – showing restraint which consistently and patiently endures) the process of our salvation (soteria – the means to our deliverance)." (2 Peter 3:15)" but what Greek word does he use to justify the translation "the process"?
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Rank: Moderator
Joined: 7/4/2007 Posts: 1,267 Points: 3,312 Location: England
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He tells you - soteria - Strongs #G4991 - feminine noun from the masculine noun soter/σωτηρ/#G4990, from the verb sozo/σωζω/#G4982. But then again, you'd need to read The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) to get an actual meaning for each of these Greek words. The strong's Lexicon is a basic lexicon, not a more thorough dictionary as the TDNT, or as the Liddel-Scott A Greek-English Lexicon. Yahweh doesn't want religion anywhere near His most greatest sacrifice.
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 370 Points: 1,116 Location: Philadelphia
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Two Very Good Reasons Why a Jew Cannot Believe in Jesus Are Clearly Stated in the New Testament. Submitted By Hakham Meir Yosef Rekhavi 1. Galatians 5.2 says, "If you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." Are you circumcised? Then why bother to follow a Christ who will profit you nothing? But you may say, Paul is only talking to Gentiles so that they should not first join the Jews via the Abrahamic covenant in order to become followers of Jesus. Not so for the next verse of the same chapter warns: 2. "Every man that is circumcised, he is a debtor to do the whole law." This means that all Jews are debtors to do the whole Tora. Paul then goes on to say that if you are keeping the Tora you are fallen from grace (vs. 4). Jews are circumcised, therefore Christ will profit them nothing, because they are circumcised they must keep the Tora, and because they keep the Tora they are fallen from grace. Paul even says, "Cursed is every one that continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them" (Galatians 3.10). But those who are circumcised and wish to do the commandments are no longer justified in the sight of God (vs. 11). See also Acts 13.39, Romans 7.4. So Paul a man and only a man whose logic defies reason says, damned if you keep the Tora (Gal. 5:4, 3:11) and damned if you don't keep the Tora (Gal. 3:10). But YHWH the Eternal One, creator of the universe, giver of life, all-merciful, all-powerful giver of the Tora to the Children of Yisrael says, "My judgements you shall do, and my laws you shall keep to walk in them, I am YHWH your God. And you shall keep my laws and my judgements, which when a human does them, he lives by them, I am YHWH." (Lev. 18:4-5) and, "And all that I say to you, you are to keep." (Ex. 23:13) and again, "Only be strong and very courageous, to keep and to do according to all the Tora, which Moshe my servant commanded you; turn not from it to the right or to the left, in order that you may prosper wherever you go." (Josh. 1:7) So to whom are you going to listen, Paul or YHWH? Here is the original article: [url=http://www.karaites.org.uk/two_reasons.shtml] http://www.karaites.org.uk/two_reasons.shtml[/url]"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." But first, it will piss you off!
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Rank: Member  Joined: 10/3/2008 Posts: 473 Points: 1,191 Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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edStueart wrote:Two Very Good Reasons Why a Jew Cannot Believe in Jesus Are Clearly Stated in the New Testament. Submitted By Hakham Meir Yosef Rekhavi 1. Galatians 5.2 says, "If you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." Are you circumcised? Then why bother to follow a Christ who will profit you nothing? But you may say, Paul is only talking to Gentiles so that they should not first join the Jews via the Abrahamic covenant in order to become followers of Jesus. Not so for the next verse of the same chapter warns: 2. "Every man that is circumcised, he is a debtor to do the whole law." This means that all Jews are debtors to do the whole Tora. Paul then goes on to say that if you are keeping the Tora you are fallen from grace (vs. 4). Jews are circumcised, therefore Christ will profit them nothing, because they are circumcised they must keep the Tora, and because they keep the Tora they are fallen from grace. Paul even says, "Cursed is every one that continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them" (Galatians 3.10). But those who are circumcised and wish to do the commandments are no longer justified in the sight of God (vs. 11). See also Acts 13.39, Romans 7.4. So Paul a man and only a man whose logic defies reason says, damned if you keep the Tora (Gal. 5:4, 3:11) and damned if you don't keep the Tora (Gal. 3:10). But YHWH the Eternal One, creator of the universe, giver of life, all-merciful, all-powerful giver of the Tora to the Children of Yisrael says, "My judgements you shall do, and my laws you shall keep to walk in them, I am YHWH your God. And you shall keep my laws and my judgements, which when a human does them, he lives by them, I am YHWH." (Lev. 18:4-5) and, "And all that I say to you, you are to keep." (Ex. 23:13) and again, "Only be strong and very courageous, to keep and to do according to all the Tora, which Moshe my servant commanded you; turn not from it to the right or to the left, in order that you may prosper wherever you go." (Josh. 1:7) So to whom are you going to listen, Paul or YHWH? Here is the original article: [url=http://www.karaites.org.uk/two_reasons.shtml] http://www.karaites.org.uk/two_reasons.shtml[/url] Very interesting stuff. This whole Paul may be a false teacher is so interesting. It is definitely funny for Yah to uplift His Torah so much throughout scripture, but then have areas in the bible where Torah is swept to the side (by a "prophet" or apostle) as if it is not as important today. I wanna see them days when dudes ain't hustlin' baking pies, throwing up gang signs, but got changed lives -- throwing up props to the Most High/We got bodies glorified, dressed in righteous acts - fresh kicks to match - new names, brims low rockin' fitted caps/We ain't chasing dough, nor hoes, pleasure in the presence of Yahuweh Tsidkenu
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Rank: Ekklesia  Joined: 10/3/2007 Posts: 1,183 Points: 2,998 Location: São Paulo, Brazil
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edStueart wrote:1. Galatians 5.2 says, "If you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
2. "Every man that is circumcised, he is a debtor to do the whole law." When I read this in Galatians I still see it differently to the way CW sees it. From my understanding the words in Galatians are concerning the moment of "conversion", the moment of receiving God's Spirit. The author of Galatians seems to understand that God gives His Spirit to a believer, regardless of being circumcised or not. There are members on the forum who are uncircumcised, well they were at the start of the Galatians debate, so here we have a dilemma, are they saved or not? I'm pretty sure they were "saved" then and are still now "saved"! The topic of Galatians could be defined as: is being circumcised a prerequisite for receiving God's Spirit? In this case the author thinks receiving the Spirit at conversion is a guarantee of salvation, if one continues in the walk and does not willingly turn their back on Yahweh. From my understanding the point of Galatians is separating those who believe Yahshua to be the Messiah and that He saved them completely from those who want to earn salvation through their own sweat and blood, regardless of whether they believe in the Messiah or not. Galatians is trying to say that if a person wants to earn salvation on their own merit, by their own sweat and blood, then they are indebted to keep the whole law, so if a person thinks that through their own pain and blood of being circumcised they can earn salvation then they are indebted to keep every single law within the Torah perfectly. And only one Person has been able to do that, and He did it for us. Abraham tried to fulfill the promise on his own merit, and it did not go well. But the next time round he trusted Yahweh to fulfill the promise. Abraham still had to go and have sex, he still had to obey, but the difference was trying to do it in one's own strength versus trusting Yahweh to accomplish what was needed. It's about perception really, one chooses to be circumcised, not to earn salvation, but because God asked one to do it, if however one wants to earn salvation on one's own merit by being circumcised then I personally think one's making a mockery of Yahshua's crucifixion, as if somehow it's not His blood that saves but by our own blood. The question is: if the book of Galatians did not exist, would we come to the similar conclusion. PS: I'm not trying to defend Galatians here, especially since the controversy surrounding it and I'm personally still confused about whether it's legit and about whether it was Paul wrote it. But my point was to share the way I see what Galatians is trying to say. Here's a question: does God accept a Xhosa person if they come to belief but were initianally circumcised through Xhosa traditions prior to "conversion"? Here's another question: why is there no mention of circumcision in the 10 Commandments? Why were the 10 Commandments placed within the Ark while the Torah only beside it?
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Rank: Moderator  Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,243 Points: 1,891 Location: Texas
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Matthew wrote:When I read this in Galatians I still see it differently to the way CW sees it. From my understanding the words in Galatians are concerning the moment of "conversion", the moment of receiving God's Spirit. The author of Galatians seems to understand that God gives His Spirit to a believer, regardless of being circumcised or not. There are members on the forum who are uncircumcised, well they were at the start of the Galatians debate, so here we have a dilemma, are they saved or not? I'm pretty sure they were "saved" then and are still now "saved"!
The topic of Galatians could be defined as: is being circumcised a prerequisite for receiving God's Spirit? In this case the author thinks receiving the Spirit at conversion is a guarantee of salvation, if one continues in the walk and does not willingly turn their back on Yahweh.
From my understanding the point of Galatians is separating those who believe Yahshua to be the Messiah and that He saved them completely from those who want to earn salvation through their own sweat and blood, regardless of whether they believe in the Messiah or not. Galatians is trying to say that if a person wants to earn salvation on their own merit, by their own sweat and blood, then they are indebted to keep the whole law, so if a person thinks that through their own pain and blood of being circumcised they can earn salvation then they are indebted to keep every single law within the Torah perfectly. And only one Person has been able to do that, and He did it for us.
Abraham tried to fulfill the promise on his own merit, and it did not go well. But the next time round he trusted Yahweh to fulfill the promise. Abraham still had to go and have sex, he still had to obey, but the difference was trying to do it in one's own strength versus trusting Yahweh to accomplish what was needed.
It's about perception really, one chooses to be circumcised, not to earn salvation, but because God asked one to do it, if however one wants to earn salvation on one's own merit by being circumcised then I personally think one's making a mockery of Yahshua's crucifixion, as if somehow it's not His blood that saves but by our own blood.
The question is: if the book of Galatians did not exist, would we come to the similar conclusion. I agree with what you are saying, at least in terms of trust is what saves us, and not fulfilling the Torah. The only problem I have is, I don't see hoe you can come to that conclusion through reading Galatians. Paul didn't say that you can't be saved through circumcision, he said that if you are circumcised you can't be saved. Paul didn't say that if you want to be saved through circumcision that you have to follow the whole Torah, we said that if you are circumcised you have to follow the whole Torah. To answer your final question I think the idea is prevalent throughout all of the Torah, it's the whole message of the Sabbath. We can't work for our Salvation, God alone has done the work. So yes we would have this with out Galatians. I think people have read this into Galatians when it is not there. So wither that is what Paul meant, and he is an absolutely horrible communicator, or we are reading that into him when it was not meant. Matt wrote:PS: I'm not trying to defend Galatians here, especially since the controversy surrounding it and I'm personally still confused about whether it's legit and about whether it was Paul wrote it. But my point was to share the way I see what Galatians is trying to say.
Here's a question: does God accept a Xhosa person if they come to belief but were initianally circumcised through Xhosa traditions prior to "conversion"?
Here's another question: why is there no mention of circumcision in the 10 Commandments? Why were the 10 Commandments placed within the Ark while the Torah only beside it? I agree completely circumcision is not God's most important sign or commandment, the only reason it has come up is that is where Paul choose to build his argument (I believe it is because Paul hated his own people, and this was one of there most basic practices). I don't think that you have to be circumcised to receive God's Spirit, but I think that if you have received Yah's Spirit, you would want to follow his instructions, and if you are not circumcised, get circumcised, and have your kids circumcised, not because it will save you, but because he asked you to. I don't know what a Xhosa is so I can't answer that one sorry. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Ekklesia  Joined: 10/3/2007 Posts: 1,183 Points: 2,998 Location: São Paulo, Brazil
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James wrote:Paul didn't say that you can't be saved through circumcision, he said that if you are circumcised you can't be saved. Paul didn't say that if you want to be saved through circumcision that you have to follow the whole Torah, we said that if you are circumcised you have to follow the whole Torah. Hmmm... I will need to look again into Galatians because what you're saying here makes sense as it quite possibly is what the authour intended to say. Quote:=JamesI don't know what a Xhosa is so I can't answer that one sorry. African tribe found in the south-east of South Africa. Mandela is a Xhosa. Some strange ritual performed at about the age of 17, involving painting oneself white and living in the bush for a week, moving from boyhood to manhood.
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