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Rank: Member
Joined: 9/17/2009
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Location: Dallas, Texas
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With the intent of double checking what I just posted, and having a short amount of time to do so, I looked up one of the verses, Ephesians 2:14, cited as evidence of the Law no longer applying, and am reaching a further question(s). Here is the verse and some surrounding context according to the NLT: 11Don’t forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called “uncircumcised heathens” by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts. 12 In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. 13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ. 14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. 15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. 16 Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death. 17 He brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and peace to the Jews who were near. 18 Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us. That, at least to me, appears to be saying that the Law no longer applies. This presents itself with at least 2 problems: Yahushua didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. Also, I know english translations... could be better... so is this THE Law its talking about, or is this speaking about the "law" the way the Pharicees etc. saw it? I also looked it up on Swalchy's website, and am still unclear as to whether by law it is meant Torah, or something else. The Ephesians page is here. So whats going on here? Truth is like sandpaper. When you run across it, it can do one of 2 things: grind you down into nothing, or polish and refine you.
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Rank: Member  Joined: 7/4/2007 Posts: 1,489 Points: 4,240 Location: England
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Although I do not have time atm to look though it all - I will - but the what we first must do is step back and see who Paul was writing to, from where and if we can why. I can see, thanks to swalchy's notes, that there are quite a few changes around here, mainly because its talking about "The Law" - and magically words seem to be removed and added as soon as you start encroaching on Christian doctrine. We now have to ask - what does Yahuweh say about his Torah, well we know He is quite pro, also that Yahushua as you have stated said he did not come to abolish or remove even the smallest... So then we have to then think, even without looking at the Greek it seems Paul is contradicting what Yahushua said in that huge statement He made. So do we trust Paul, or do we trust Yahushua? Looking into the Greek, I have not got time atm, and I'm not very fast at it - but here is swalchy's amplification: Quote:
Therefore, for this reason and for this purpose, remember and be mindful of, recall and keep in mind that concerning this, once and formerly in a previous time you Gentile nations and races by flesh, those said and taught, maintained and advised, directed and affirmed, exhorted and pointed out as "the Uncircumcision" by those said and taught, maintained and advised, directed and affirmed, exhorted and pointed out as "the circumcision" made and brought about in the flesh by the hands of men, concerning that you were and once existed at that one certain age, season and time as separate from and without, apart from, independent from and without a relationship with Messiah*, estranged and excluded, alienated and shut out from the state, citizenship and commonwealth of Yisra'el*, those that strive with the Supreme One, and strangers and foreigners, aliens and those without a share in the covenants and agreements, treaties and testaments, dispositions and arrangements, compacts and contracts of the promise and gracious pledge, offer and vow, not having or holding, owning or possessing, obtaining or gaining, acquiring or receiving the hope, the expectation, confidence and trust in the future prospect of salvation and without and neglectful of the Supreme One, without a relationship with the Supreme One and without any sort of reason in, by and with the world and cosmos, the entire realm of man. But nevertheless, now, at this present time, in, by and with Messiah* Yahushua*, you who once and formerly in a previous time used to be and exist far away and a long way off came to be and became established, arrived and were brought near and close at hand in, by and with the life-blood of Messiah*. For He Himself is our exemption from chaos, our peace and tranquillity, harmony and concord, security and safety, prosperity and freedom, felicity and our assurance of salvation, He who made and created, formed and produced, appointed and ordained, prepared and constituted, manufactured and established, accomplished and caused both us and you to be One, and He who has loosened and unbound, annulled and dismissed, released and broken down, destroyed and abolished, dispersed and invalidated the partition, obstacle and dividing wall of the hedge, wall and fence that separates and prevents people from joining together, having destroyed and abolished, invalidated and put an end to, rendered useless and ineffective, idle and inactive, severed and terminated in, by and with His flesh the enmity, hostility and hatred created by this law and commandment, custom and rule, tradition and order, statue and ordinance of charges and precepts, injunctions and prescribed rules, mandates and orders, regulations and commissions, so that and in order that in, by and with Himself He might create and produce, form and make the two into one common man*, making and executing, producing and performing, constructing and forming, keeping and establishing, accomplishing and bringing about exemption from chaos, this being peace and tranquillity, harmony and concord, security and safety, prosperity and freedom, felicity and the assurance of salvation, and so He might completely reconcile and bring both us and you together to God* in, by and with one body and physical presence through the means of and on the grounds of, on account of and for the reason of, on the basis of and because of the upright stake*, having separated and terminated, destroyed and extinguished, segregated and done away with, abolished and put the enmity, hostility and hatred to death and caused it to perish in Himself. “And He came and arrived, arose and appeared to declare and proclaim, bring and tell, announce and communicate exemption from chaos, this being peace and tranquillity, harmony and concord, security and safety, prosperity and freedom, felicity and the assurance of salvation to you who were far away and a long way off and exemption from chaos, this being peace and tranquillity, harmony and concord, security and safety, prosperity and freedom, felicity and the assurance of salvation to those who were near and at hand,” * for concerning this, through the means of and on the grounds of, on account of and for the reason of, on the basis of and because of Him both us and you have and hold, obtain and gain, acquire and receive, own and posses in, by and with one Spirit* the access and privilege to have a relationship with the Father*.
What is interesting is this leads directly on to Yahushua as the Cornerstone - and a simple game of join the dots reveals quite a lot here... Who is Yahushua? The Word, which is also the Cornerstone or Foundation - the most important stone in the building. The Word is Torah. Its all connected. So saying that the Messiah removed the Torah, is basically saying that He removed Himself. Also it needs to be noted that we are told to Understand and Acknowledge Torah, rather than keep it as a strict set of rules. We do keep it as best we can to a) set ourself's apart visibly, symbolising our spiritual separation from the Word and our joining with Yahuweh, b) Because we love our Father and He gave us them not only for our understanding, but blessing. c) I just lost my train of thought because of my son... lol Anyway Paul is either wrong or God is. Or the translation has been tampered with and Paul's point lost because of context being removed. Paul likes to write long sentences to make a point, he also seems to have a sarcastic streak, so verses and chapters - which were never in the original text or even the copies, really play havoc with the context too. I have babbled on enough without making any real attempt at "disproving" that ridiculous site lol Our TinyChat meeting room is currently here: CLICK TO GOTO ROOM Password: "yadayahweh"
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Y.I.K. wrote:Yahushua didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. Also, I know english translations... could be better... so is this THE Law its talking about, or is this speaking about the "law" the way the Pharicees etc. saw it? I also looked it up on Swalchy's website, and am still unclear as to whether by law it is meant Torah, or something else. The Ephesians page is here. So whats going on here? You'll notice, the more of the translations you read on TWTY, that if it's indicating the Torah, I use the word "Torah", and if you see the word "law" without "Torah" anywhere near it, then it's on about "law" as the Pharisees saw it. I also don't include the word "the" in front of "law" when taking about "law" as the Pharisees saw it - I only use the definite article in front of "Torah", as it does in the Greek text itself. Unfortunately, many English translations just constantly add the definite article whenever they see the word "law"/nomos/νομος, therefore clouding, butchering, and misleading the issue. Yahweh doesn't want religion anywhere near His most greatest sacrifice.
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Have you ever heard of a law being done away with, as the result of a prisoner completing his sentence for violating it? Quote: severed and terminated in, by and with His flesh the enmity, hostility and hatred created by this law...
segregated and done away with, abolished and put the enmity, hostility and hatred to death and caused it to perish in Himself. He did away with the enmity, hostility, and hatred; not the Torah. Think of the "nailed it to the cross" line this way -- when criminals were executed by crucifixion, the Crime they committed was written and nailed above their heads. Doing this reflected that the Debt (created by violating the Law) was being paid for by execution. This is EXACTLY what Paul is saying -- our debt is "Paid in Full" by MessiYah's execution. (And the writing above his head was "This is Yahushua of Nazareth, King of the Jews", in several languages...)
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