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Offline Yada  
#1 Posted : Friday, June 20, 2008 4:54:55 AM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

I had a bit of a run in with a 'JW' a couple of days ago. I was visiting a friend of mine at the hotel that he and his wife own and operate. While we were sitting in the lobby, in walked a very dapper, ear-to-ear grinning 'JW.' He looked at the two of us, smiled even more broadly and said, "Can I buy you something to drink?"

The ensuing conversation quickly soured - I couldn't get him to realize that if 'Jehovah' couldn't possibly be God's Name (i.e., no "J" in Hebrew) then if the JWs had changed and accepted this, then perhaps they had changed and accepted other things as well.

I realized, after the fact, that I hadn't done a very good job of 'witnessing to this Witness." I went online and, after some searching, came across a simple approach that might work. To use it, you'll only need to mark/highlight 4 verses from the Book of Revelation (which apparently is the JWs favorite book of the 'Bible').

Here's the excerpt/approach:

Quote:
Jehovah's Witnesses main denial and stumbling block is the doctrine of the deity of Jesus Christ. For that reason, we in ministering to Jehovah's Witnesses, we need to deal with that specifically.

There are many passages that show the clear teaching of the deity of Jesus Christ. Jehovah Witnesses love the book of Revelation more than any other Book in the Bible. And since they love it so much, you might as well use it with them.

Ron brought out his Bible and smiled. "Let's begin and you will see something very interesting develop here," he promised.

Ron turned to Revelation 1:8,

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Ron asked them, "Who is speaking here? I am the Alpha and Omega, says who?" The younger man answered, " Says the Lord God - Jehovah - God!".

"You are absolutely right, " Ron answered. "We believe that the Alpha and Omega is Jehovah God, just as it says."

Ron continued, "Turn to Revelation 21: 5-7. "

"He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. "

Here again we see the identification that Alpha and Omega is Jehovah God. The Watchtower visitors smiled broadly and immediately agreed with Ron. " You are absolutely right," said the elder of the two. " We believe that Alpha and Omega is "Jehovah God. That's what it says."

"Turn to Revelation 22," Ron continued, "beginning with verse 13."

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Again, the visitors responded that it referred to Jehovah God, the Father.

Ron said, "There's just one more verse, do you think you could help me with it?"

"Oh," they said, "We'd be glad to." They openly smiling now as Ron appeared to grasp their understanding of Jehovah God.

Ron was on a real roll, now. He said, "It's Revelation 1:17-18. Will you read it for me?" he asked.

They turned in their Watchtower Bible and the elder one began to read.

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Ron said, "Stop. I've been trying to figure out who the first and the last is. Tell me who he is."

They said, "We just saw who the first and the last is. The first and the last is Jehovah God."

Ron said, "You mean to tell me the first and the last is Jehovah God?

They said, "Of course he's Jehovah God."

Ron replied, "Well, keep reading."

"I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

There was a hush that followed. Ron then asked them, "When did Jehovah die?" When did God die?" There was no answer as the men stared silently into their scriptures.

Finally the man who did most of the talking said, " I have never seen that before."

"Well," Ron answered, "Is this your own Bible, published by the Watchtower?"

He said, "Well yes, but I've never seen that before."

Ron again asked them, "So, tell me. When did Jehovah die?" They just kept looking at the verse.

At last, he quietly answered, "But Jesus died."

Ron said, "Oh, you mean Jesus is Jehovah God?"

He said, "Well, no. He can't be."

"Why not," Ron asked?

"Well, if Jesus is Jehovah God, that would change everything else in the Bible. everything else we believe about him."

" You know, that's what I thought too," Ron answered."

The older man stood. "We have to leave now."

Ron said, "Sir, could you find out for me when Jehovah died? Would you go back to your Kingdom Hall and ask your overseer when did Jehovah die? When you get the answer could you bring your Watchtower leaders back to my house so they could tell me? I would really appreciate that." Needless to say, they never returned.


Just thought I'd share it here for what it's worth. The complete article is here. It's a very good piece - well worth a read.

One closing thought from the article:

Quote:
Jehovah's Witnesses main denial and stumbling block is the doctrine of the deity of Jesus Christ. For that reason, we in ministering to Jehovah's Witnesses, we need to deal with that specifically.
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Offline Yada  
#2 Posted : Friday, June 20, 2008 5:04:14 AM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

I borrowed this from another thread on JWs regarding the select 144,000. A little background from the article I referenced in the previous post:

Quote:
When a Watchtower member comes to your front door and you open it, what are they thinking about? What do they think when you talk about Christianity? First, it's impossible to offer them any hope of heaven.

The Jehovah's Witnesses teach and believe that only 144,000 people are going to make it to heaven. They teach that only 144,000 people are going to make it to heaven and the odds are that the visitor at your door isn't one of them.

This wonderful news came from Joseph Franklin Rutherford, the second President. After he became President in 1917, they were prophesying that Armageddon was right around the corner. And order to increase the membership, he began to tell his followers that only 144,000 people were going to make it to heaven.

The door to door crews began to tell their prospects that they had better join the Watchtower before its too late because Armageddon is right around the corner and the ranks of the 144,000 were filling fast.

For many years they preached this. However, in 1934 they ran into a terrible problem. In 1934, the Organization grew larger than 144,000 people and Armageddon had yet to occur.

The Watchtower was in a quandary about what to do with all these extra people. Rutherford saved the day when another revelation from God came forth that said that everyone who became a Jehovah's Witness before 1934 would go to Heaven. Everyone who became a Jehovah's Witness after 1934 would stay here on earth and live in a new paradise.

That is why today when you talk to most Jehovah's Witnesses they have absolutely no hope of ever going to heaven. They believe it because Rutherford told them so. That is so sad.


Now, I wanted to add a post from kp:

Quote:
Believe it or not, most of the attributes we (humans) ascribe to the 144,000 are pure extrapolation: we know very little about them directly from scripture. And the folks (like the JWs) who are trying to "become" them invariably ignore what's actually there and cling to their fond wishes instead.

They're introduced in Revelation 7:1-8, where we learn (1) that they're Israelites, (2) 12,000 each from twelve tribes of Israel (including Levi and two tribes from Joseph; the tribe of Dan is missing from the list), and (3) they're all "sealed" from harm sometime early in the game, evidently after the rapture (since they're left behind) but before the Tribulation's nastiness (the harming of the "earth, sea, and trees" by the angels tasked to wrath) gets underway.

Then, in Revelation 14:1-5, we're told that (1) they all make it through the Tribulation alive, for they're seen standing on Mt. Zion with the returned King Yahshua; (2) they have the Lamb's Father's name (Yahuweh) "written" on their foreheads---which is a component of their having been sealed; and (3) they have an exclusive mode of praise, called "singing a new song...which only they could learn." (4) They are said to be "redeemed from the earth," though this is not said to be an exclusive condition: one third of the nation of Israel's mortals will be redeemed as well (Zechariah 13:8-9), and there will be gentile redeemed (called "sheep" as opposed to goats in Matthew 25:31-46) as well---the ekklesia of repentant Laodicea. (5) The 144,000 are then said to be "virgins, not defiled by women," from which we can deduce that they're all men (and we can surmise that they're young for the most part---in their teens at the time of the rapture, I'd guess). This kinda leaves the JW ladies, the majority of the door-to-door crew, out in the cold. But see II Corinthians 11:2 for a metaphorical approach to the whole virginity thing. (6) The record then reiterates their status as "redeemed," and calls them "firstfruits to God," perhaps indicating (though we can't be dogmatic) that they are the first post-rapture believers. (7) Finally, it is said that they display no guile or deceit: they are "without fault before the throne of God." That, of course, is a condition all the redeemed share by virtue of Yahshua's grace, but we're talking about Tribulation populations here. At one point, this quality will be non-existent in the earth.

Note that although the 144,000 have a special rapport with the Messiah, they are never said to be "rulers with Jesus" over the earth in any exclusive way. Those named as "rulers" in the millennial age include (1) the twelve apostles, who will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel; (2) The resurrected David, who will serve as a "prince" in Jerusalem; and (3) the saints in general, raptured and returned with the King, who are said to be "kings and priests" in their own right, "judging the nations" during the Millennium.

Are the 144,000 mentioned anywhere else in scripture? I believe it's possible (though I can't prove it) that the instructions given to the seventy in Luke 10:1-24 and to the twelve in Matthew 10, Mark 6, and Luke 9 and 12, are written primarily for the 144,000 of the Tribulation. Look specifically at the timing promise in Matthew 10:23---"You will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

kp


Again, the complet article I referenced is here.
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Offline Yada  
#3 Posted : Friday, June 20, 2008 5:10:27 AM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

During the conversation I had with the Jehovah's Witness, he seemed compelled to share with me, "I want you to know that I left the Marine Corps for religious reasons...."

I really couldn't understand what he was talking about (since I believe serving in the military is noble and honorable) until I read:

Quote:
If you have ever talked at length with a member of the Watchtower you know that they claim to be the theocratic Kingdom of God on earth. What they mean by that is a theocracy is a government ruled by God. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they are god's government on earth, that all other governments are satanic, that they alone are the true government of god. This is why a Jehovah's Witness will never salute the flag, why they will never say the Pledge of Allegiance, and why they will never serve in the armed forces of any nation, because they believe all governments are satanic, except the true government of god, headquartered in Brooklyn, New York.


Source.
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Offline bitnet  
#4 Posted : Friday, June 20, 2008 8:50:00 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Fascinating! The headquarters of Jehovah is in Brooklyn... Could it be more important than Jerusalem?
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Yada  
#5 Posted : Friday, June 20, 2008 6:34:02 PM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

You can watch a short animated overview of JW theology here.

You can watch an extended 14 part expose' here.
If you'd like to join the YY Study Group room on Paltalk - just click here. The lockword is: yadayahweh
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Offline kleeb  
#6 Posted : Friday, June 20, 2008 8:51:36 PM(UTC)
kleeb
Joined: 3/28/2008(UTC)
Posts: 45

Why is it that Yahushua spoke of the Father (His Father) as a seperate person? He prayed that as He and the Father is one, that we and He and the Father shall be one. Show me where Yahushua even hinted that He and the Father were one person. He prayed to the Father. He said that the Father sent Him, That His authority came from the Father. He said that the Father is above Him in authority. If you can put away what you learned from religion, from the trinity, then you can see the truth. Read John 3:16, it doesn't say Yahweh in the flesh. It says Yahweh's son. Why can't you see what is writen very plainly is scripture? Yahushua prayed to His Father, not to himself. If Yahushua is Yahweh, then Yahushua's life was a farce.
Luke 9:35, A voice came from the cloud, saying "this is my son, whom I have chosen, listen to Him". Are you saying that Yahweh lied when He said "this is my Son"? Why did He not say "this is Me"?
Mark 14:36, And He said, "Abba all is possable for you. make this cup pass from me. Yet not what I desire, but what You desire". Either Yahweh is having a struggle with himself, or Yahweh and His Son are not the same person.
John 14:28, You heard Me say, "I am going away and I am coming back to you". If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going away to the Father, for the father is greater that I" Again Yahushua says that the Father is greater that He.
John 20:21," As the Father has sent me, I am sending you". The Father sent Him and He sent us. We are no more the Father than He.
Yahushua had (has) the authority to forgive sin. He also gave this authority to His deciples (John 20:23). As He was being crucified he forgave the sinner who was crucified with Him. Why did he not forgive those who crucified him? He said "Father forgive them for they not know what they do". If He was Yahweh then He would not have to ask the Father to forgive them. If He was Yahweh in the flesh then He would have all the authority of Yahweh and would not have to pray to Yahweh or even refer to Him in the third party.
Yahweh would not have feared what he was about to face on the cross. He would not have cried out "why have I forsaken Me".
This is the last I will say on this subject. You will either see the truth or not. I hope that this is not a salvation issue. I see the goodness in so many of you on this forum. But I also see that so many of you are so comitted to the doctrine of YY that you will not even consider anything else. Don't get me wrong. I am grateful to YY for showing me the importance of the Fathers name. I believe that Yada is doing His work. YY is the tool which Yahweh used to call me back to Him.
May Yahweh's wisdon be on you all. Lee
Offline bitnet  
#7 Posted : Friday, June 20, 2008 11:26:17 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

For the most part, many of us have failed to understand the magnificence of Yahweh's creating power and why He made the angels, us and the rest of the universe. Yada and KP, among others, have thrown great light on the nature of our Creator and His purpose for us, and how He planned and decided to come through His creation to redeem and save us.

In Scripture we read that the Messenger who appeared in the midst of the burning bush to Mosheh identified Himself as the Elohim of Avraham, Yitshaq and Ya'akob. We also read in Yahuchanan that the Word was with with Elohim in the beginning and that the Word is Elohim and that everything was created by the Word. "All came to be through Him, and without Him not even one came to be that came to be." We also know who identified Himself as the Alpha and the Omega.

We understand the importance of His personal name, and His identity helps to draw us closer to Him. In Hebrews we also read:
Heb 1:1 Elohim, having of old spoken in many portions and many ways to the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by the Son, whom He has appointed heir of all, through whom also He made the ages,
Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of the esteem and the exact representation of His substance, and sustaining all by the word of His power, having made a cleansing of our sins through Himself, sat down at the right hand of the Greatness on high,
Heb 1:4 having become so much better than the messengers, as He has inherited a more excellent Name than them.


Notwithstanding the verses you quote, kleeb, the above verses show that Messiah Yahushua is more than the Son. To put it in perspective, when He manifested Himself on earth as a human, He lowered Himself to our level for our sake. Almost everything He spoke was from the perspective of a human. But He was there from the beginning! This is where many people stumble badly, mixing up the human nature of His earthly manifestation with His real identity.

To make matters confusing, if we follow a certain line of thought, are there two gods in heaven now?
Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says, “Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever, a sceptre of straightness is the sceptre of Your reign.
Heb 1:9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.Because of this, Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Master, did found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Heb 1:11 “They shall perish, but You remain. And they shall all grow old like a garment,
Heb 1:12 and like a mantle You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail.”
Heb 1:13 And to which of the messengers did He ever say, “Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”?


I remember a story of a king who decided to walk among his subjects to find out what the ordinary people really think instead of just listening to his advisors. He dressed simply and went out and behaved as an ordinary person. When people talked about the king or his advisors, he listened intently. When he was asked for his opinions, he spoke as an ordinary person and referred to the king in the third person so as not to give himself away. But he also claimed that he has connections with the palace and that the king will listen to their concerns and act accordingly. After hearing everything, he went back to his palace and arranged for a feast with his people. When he identified himself to the people, they were surprised as he had not spoken of himself as their king. He revealed himself and declared that their concerns had been noted and that he was going to do something about it. But some skeptics who had refused to believe that the king that had walked among them did not attend the feast.

Coming back to this, we believe that there is only one Elohim! Everything that has been written on the YY site and expounded on this forum points to this. So what is your point that you are trying to make, Lee? That there is a trinity? A duality? That the Son is not Elohim? I am wondering what is the purpose of your post as it seems to be a ultimatum of sorts but to what purpose? That we turn away from "Yada and KP's indoctrination"... of what!? I'm afraid you are going to have to do better than that last post for it to have any significance.

Edited by user Saturday, June 21, 2008 5:19:53 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Yada  
#8 Posted : Saturday, June 21, 2008 6:32:52 PM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

Yesterday, as I was leaving the building, I ran into two young JWs. I just happened to have a copy of "The Scriptures" with me and they had their JW 'Bbile.' Together, we went through the 4 verses from Revelation listed in the first post of this thread and it worked! When we got to the final verse and I asked them who was "Speaking?" and "How could Jehovah/God die?" - they looked at each other a little stunned and one of them said, "We need to study more."

Next time you get that 'knock' at the door - give it a try.


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Offline Matthew  
#9 Posted : Thursday, January 8, 2009 2:29:59 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Yada wrote:
...

I realized, after the fact, that I hadn't done a very good job of 'witnessing to this Witness." I went online and, after some searching, came across a simple approach that might work. To use it, you'll only need to mark/highlight 4 verses from the Book of Revelation (which apparently is the JWs favorite book of the 'Bible').

Here's the excerpt/approach:

Quote:
Jehovah's Witnesses main denial and stumbling block is the doctrine of the deity of Jesus Christ. For that reason, we in ministering to Jehovah's Witnesses, we need to deal with that specifically.

There are many passages that show the clear teaching of the deity of Jesus Christ. Jehovah Witnesses love the book of Revelation more than any other Book in the Bible. And since they love it so much, you might as well use it with them.

Ron brought out his Bible and smiled. "Let's begin and you will see something very interesting develop here," he promised.

Ron turned to Revelation 1:8,

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Ron asked them, "Who is speaking here? I am the Alpha and Omega, says who?" The younger man answered, " Says the Lord God - Jehovah - God!".

"You are absolutely right, " Ron answered. "We believe that the Alpha and Omega is Jehovah God, just as it says."

Ron continued, "Turn to Revelation 21: 5-7. "

"He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. "

Here again we see the identification that Alpha and Omega is Jehovah God. The Watchtower visitors smiled broadly and immediately agreed with Ron. " You are absolutely right," said the elder of the two. " We believe that Alpha and Omega is "Jehovah God. That's what it says."

"Turn to Revelation 22," Ron continued, "beginning with verse 13."

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Again, the visitors responded that it referred to Jehovah God, the Father.

Ron said, "There's just one more verse, do you think you could help me with it?"

"Oh," they said, "We'd be glad to." They openly smiling now as Ron appeared to grasp their understanding of Jehovah God.

Ron was on a real roll, now. He said, "It's Revelation 1:17-18. Will you read it for me?" he asked.

They turned in their Watchtower Bible and the elder one began to read.

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Ron said, "Stop. I've been trying to figure out who the first and the last is. Tell me who he is."

They said, "We just saw who the first and the last is. The first and the last is Jehovah God."

Ron said, "You mean to tell me the first and the last is Jehovah God?

They said, "Of course he's Jehovah God."

Ron replied, "Well, keep reading."

"I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

There was a hush that followed. Ron then asked them, "When did Jehovah die?" When did God die?" There was no answer as the men stared silently into their scriptures.

Finally the man who did most of the talking said, " I have never seen that before."

"Well," Ron answered, "Is this your own Bible, published by the Watchtower?"

He said, "Well yes, but I've never seen that before."

Ron again asked them, "So, tell me. When did Jehovah die?" They just kept looking at the verse.

At last, he quietly answered, "But Jesus died."

Ron said, "Oh, you mean Jesus is Jehovah God?"

He said, "Well, no. He can't be."

"Why not," Ron asked?

"Well, if Jesus is Jehovah God, that would change everything else in the Bible. everything else we believe about him."

" You know, that's what I thought too," Ron answered."

The older man stood. "We have to leave now."

Ron said, "Sir, could you find out for me when Jehovah died? Would you go back to your Kingdom Hall and ask your overseer when did Jehovah die? When you get the answer could you bring your Watchtower leaders back to my house so they could tell me? I would really appreciate that." Needless to say, they never returned.


...


You can cut the simple approach down to two passages:

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what Yahuweh says— Israel's King and Redeemer, Yahuweh of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Revelation 1:17-18 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."


Here are the passages in the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible called the New World Translation:

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, 'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.'"

Revelation 1:17-18 "And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: 'Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des.'"
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