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Offline Yada  
#1 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 9:14:08 AM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

Earlier today, we had someone visit the YY Study Group room who identified himself as a "Messianic Jew." He used the name "Y-e-shua" instead of Yahshua. I did the best I could to try to point out why "Yahshua" was the best form to use, but to him it seemed like a trivial matter. I told him that if the name didn't matter, why not just continue using "Jesus?" He asked me why I was "coming down" on him and left the room.

I wish I could figure out how to best convey the importance of using the Proper Name of Yahshua. I know that this is something Yada is passionate about and, while I have tried to identify good factual information supporting the Name, I feel I'm not doing as well as I could.

Has anyone one got an ideas as to how to effectively and quickly convey that "Y-e-shua" isn't correct? I have used some of the metaphor's Ken has written to communicate on key points and they also work like a charm (no pun intended). Has anyone come across something similar on a site somewhere that might work?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas.

If you'd like to join the YY Study Group room on Paltalk - just click here. The lockword is: yadayahweh
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Offline Icy  
#2 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 9:38:32 AM(UTC)
Icy
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 641
Man
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
I think this post (or the links in it) that Shalom82 recently made might help you out: http://forum.yadayahweh.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=856
Offline shalom82  
#3 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 2:37:08 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Shalom Achim v'Achiot sheli,
Here is another article from Eliyahu that I guess really isn't so much an article as it is scripture quotation.

Yahushua's name foretold in Zechariah!



Here are some scriptures that show the "Branch" to be the future Messiah

Jeremiah 33:15 (KJV) In those days, and at that time, will I cause the BRANCH of righteousness to grow up to David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 (KJV) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell in safety: and this [is the name] by which she shall be called, Yahweh our righteousness.

Isaiah 11:1-AV And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a BRANCH shall grow out of his roots:
2 (KJV) And the spirit of Yahweh shall rest upon him, (see John 1:32) the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel andmight, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh;
3 (KJV) And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of Yahweh: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 (KJV) But with righteousness shall he judge the poor,and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 (KJV) And righteousness shall be the belt of his loins,and faithfulness the belt of his reins.
Jeremiah 23:2-AV Therefore thus saith Yahweh Elohim of Israel against the shepherds that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith Yahweh.
3 (KJV) And I will gather the remnant of my flock from all countries where I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 (KJV) And I will set shepherds over them who shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith Yahweh.
5 (KJV) Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that I will raise to David a righteous BRANCH, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice upon theearth.
6 (KJV) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israelshall dwell in safety: and this [is] his name by which he shall be called, YAHWEH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 (KJV) Therefore, behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that they shall no more say, Yahweh liveth, who brough tthe children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 (KJV) But, Yahweh liveth, who brought and who led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries where I have driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Zechariah 3:8-AV Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at:for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Here is Yahushua's name prophesied
Zechariah 6:9 (KJV) And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying,
10 (KJV) Take of [them of] the captivity, [even] ofHeldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, who are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;
11 (KJV) Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set [them] upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

Joshua is pronounced Yahushua in the original Hebrew because Hebrew has no "J" or "J" sound
Zechariah 6:12 (KJV) And speak to him, saying, Thus speaketh Yahweh of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of Yahweh:

So the Scripture is saying: "Behold (or look) the man (Yahushua) whose NAME is the BRANCH!" Therefore the current High Priest of Judah in the days of Zechariah Joshua (Yahushua) has the name of the "BRANCH" or the coming Messiah.

The scriptures plainly state the name of Messiah, as being Yod Hey Waw Shin Ayin....Yahushua. We can rely on Yahushua due to evidences that the article that I linked to in the previous post that Icy linked to (confused yet?). I will say it again...the Talmud admits that "Yehoshua" was the name of the Messiah....eventhough the rabbis referred to him as Yeshu which is an acronym for May his name be blotted out. There is an aversion for the name form Yahshua in the Messianic community. I can't say that I am completely convinced of it myself...and prefer to use Yahushua. I believe that the Waw has to be pronounced. I think the Messianic community has aversion to Yahushua/Yahshua for a couple of reasons. They are unsure of the pronounciations and there is so much debate about whether it is Yehoshua or Yahushua...and they think that Yahshua is a sacred name construction or is at least a mispronounciation of Yod Hey Waw Shin Ayin. A lot of Messianics unfortunately practice Rabbinic Judaism + Messiah. That leads to the doctrine of ineffibility. Pronouncing part of the name makes many squirm.

I am of the opinion that this is something we cannot be dogmatic about. It won't help to be so and we will have people walking away from a dialogue in the first five minutes. There is plenty of evidence that Ye shua or Yahshua or Yashua...however you want to pronounce Yod Shin Waw Ayin was in common usage during the second temple period...as were other shortenings of Yahwistic names. There is debate as to whether it was a Hebrew shortening or and Aramaic derivative of Yahushua. We can't say for certain that Yahushua wasn't called by a shortened form or derivative in everyday life. Kinda like I'm Jacob...call me Jake. This is my opinion and I don't mean to cause a stir or any trouble. I love you all...but as I have said I know Yahushua is the name of Messiah...I use Yahushua...but I will fellowship with someone who proclaims Ye shua as long as they accept my use of Yahushua. Afterall...they're getting closer...getting warmer. Perhaps we can say that we prefer Yahushua because afterall it is the promised name of Zecharyahu's prophecy and because Ye shua is just a little too close to Yeshu for our comfort. The internet is a lot of the times the best we can do. Paltalk is wonderful, YY is wonderful, but sometimes we miss the sincere, loving, and good intentions of our brothers and sisters and mistake those intentions with confrontation, antagonism, and bullying....because we can't see faces and hear voices. Some people are extremely sensitive to this. I was talking to my sister the other day and she asked how I was. I said I was alright...couldn't complain....and she asked me what was wrong! Sometimes I may come off as a real handwringer by explaining my comments so much...but I don't want people to be offended by meanings that aren't really there.

In all of this I do have a question that I never really thought of before. When Yahshua is used what Hebrew spelling are we transliterating for? Yod Hey Waw Shin Ayin or Yod Shin Waw Ayin?

Shalom
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Yada  
#4 Posted : Monday, May 12, 2008 6:52:19 PM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

Thanks Shalom82 - I really like the way you organized the presentation. I'll give it a try in the room.

Sure would be great to see some other Yada Yahweh-ers in the room on Paltalk (hint, hint).
If you'd like to join the YY Study Group room on Paltalk - just click here. The lockword is: yadayahweh
You can download the free software here.
Hope to see everyone on Paltalk!
WARNING: Do not give out personal information (name, address, etc.) to anyone on Paltalk - ever!
Offline Yahshuaslavejeff  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, May 13, 2008 9:56:47 AM(UTC)
Yahshuaslavejeff
Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Israel / oklahoma

This SURPRISED me VERY MUCH: (both the simple apparent truth, and where it was)
Does it all line up ?

QUOTE:
The Name of The Messiah
What is the name of The Messiah?

Is it a Greek or a Hebrew name?

Should not a disciple of The Messiah know The Messiah's
GOD given birth name, and it's pronunciation, as given by
the angel Gabriel (Luke 1:31), when he prophesied to
Miriam (Mary)?

Or when The Messiah spoke His name from heaven to Paul
on the road to Damascus, what name did He use, since Paul
said that he heard an utterance from His mouth? "And when
we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice SAYING to me
in the HEBREW dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting
Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' And I said,
'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am ??????? Whom
you are persecuting'" (Acts 22:14; 26:14-15). Surely the apostle
Paul was not puzzled over language when told "Arise, and be
baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on The Messiah's
Name" (Acts 22:16).

What then was the utterance from the mouth of The Messiah
that proclaimed His Name, since it is very clear that HE SPOKE
IN HEBREW? Many names are promoted these days besides
the "christian" name of "jesus": Y'Shua, Yeshua, Yahshua,
Joshua, Yehoshua and in the Hebrew Yehowshuwa'.

Shouldn't we be able to know His Name?

"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other
Name under heaven given among men, by which we must be
saved" (Acts 4:12). Should not a man, especially The Son of
GOD and Son of man, be called by the same Name all over
the world?

.......Who is "Iesous"?.......

Hundreds of times in the New Testament the Greek name
Iesous is translated as "Jesus". But if you have ever read an
older King James Bible you might have noticed something
odd in Acts 7:45. In his speech to the Jewish council,
Stephen refers to the man who led Israel into the earthly
Promised Land as "Jesus", not Joshua! Is this an error?

Well, yes and no, since the Greek name in verse 45 is Iesous,
the same word translated as "Jesus" everywhere else. However,
Stephen could not possibly have been referring to anyone else
but the leader Joshua who took over after Moses and led the
israelites into the earthly promised land. And immediately
afterwards, in verse 59, Stephen cried out when being stoned,
"Lord ???????, receive my spirit!" Again the name is Iesous in
the Greek. Was Stephen crying out to the historical figure
Joshua, long dead, to save him, or was he calling upon the
Son of GOD, since both names in the Greek are Iesous?

So what does Iesous mean, Jesus or Joshua? Was Stephen,
a man so righteous that heaven opened up at his martyrdom,
was he so overcome by the stress of the moment that he
couldn't tell a long-dead forefather from The Messiah whom
he saw standing at the right hand of GOD?

.......Jesus or Joshua?.......

Modern translations of the Scriptures, and even recent revisions
of the King James version, have noticed this contradiction and
changed the name in Acts 7:45 to Joshua so that it makes sense.
(The same problem is found in Hebrews 4:8 also.) But where did
these translators get their authority to change the Scriptures?

Is it through integrity and honesty that Iesous is translated "Jesus",
except when it obviously has to mean Joshua? Or are the traditions
of men so strong that translators can take liberties with the Word
of GOD?

At least the translators of the original King James Version were
consistent enough to translate Iesous as Jesus in Acts 7:45
and Hebrews 4:8 even when it made no sense.

So if the new translations change Jesus to Joshua in Acts 7:45
and Hebrews 4:8, why didn't they also change Jesus to Joshua
in all the other Scriptures where they found the name Iesous?

In Acts 7:45 the name Iesous is obviously Joshua, and could
not possibly refer to anyone else. Isn't the name Iesous really
Joshua everywhere it is found?

Isn't His name really Joshua instead of Jesus? If it would be
tampering with the Scriptures to change Jesus the Savior's
name back to Joshua, would it not also be tampering with the
Scriptures to change Jesus back to Joshua in Acts 7 and
Hebrews 4? It's all the same Greek word - Iesous!

We want to know GOD's mind about these things, because
it doesn't make sense that the translators would change the
Holy Scriptures in one place and not the other.

Not wishing to disturb tradition, do they hang on to the name
Jesus for the sake of selling bibles? For certain, one thing is
true. Miriam and Yoseph (Mary and Joseph in English) named
the child just as the angel commanded them. Did the angel
speak to them in Hebrew or did the angel speak Greek?

Everything would be more understandable if he had spoken
Greek to them. Then could be that Jesus would have come
out of his mouth and we today pronounce The Messiah's
name exactly as the angel did. Except that there never has
been a "J" sound in Greek ... or Hebrew ... or even English
until the 1500's.

So what is the answer? Why should there be confusion
concerning the Name by which all men could be saved?

Did not GOD reveal to HIS followers the name HE gave
and which was the given name above all given names to
whom every knee shall bow and every tongue confess?

Will all GOD's people gather around HIS throne someday
and mumble but distorted sounds as if we were gathered
around the tower of Babel? Are we not speaking of the
GOD who longs to speak to the human heart, to save all
men who call upon the name of ??????? ..

?what name?

.......What The Messiah's Name Means.......

Does the name of the Son of GOD have any meaning other
than as a label? It certainly did to Yoseph: "And you will
name Him ???????, because He will save His people from
their sins" (Matthew 1:21, New Century Version).

If His Name is "Jesus", this Scripture makes no sense, since
obviously the Name of The Messiah means that He will save
His people from their sins.

But do you know what the name Jesus literally means?

No, you don't, and neither does anyone else, because it has no
meaning as a word in any language. It is, at best, a mere tag.

We might take a mere tag somewhat lightly, but not the Jews.
When Yoseph and Miriam brought the child to the Temple in
Jerusalem to dedicate Him, they dared not even utter such a
name as Iesous(jesus). The Jewish priests jealously guarded
the holiness of the Temple, and considered Greek to be a
loathsome language.

If Yoseph and Miriam had dedicated their child in a Greek name
it would have been viewed as an abomination, and they would
have been roughly ejected from the Temple! Obviously, this did
not happen, and they performed everything according to the Law
(Luke 2:21-39).

But if the Greek Iesous really is Joshua in Hebrew, the language
that Yoseph, Miriam, and every other Jew spoke including the
Savior Himself, then the angel's proclamation makes total sense.

Hebrew names in the Bible are always meaningful, and so were
all names until recently, and the name Joshua is even more than
that. The name Joshua is prophetic.

In John 17:11 our Master prayed, "Holy Father, keep them in YOUR
Name, the Name which YOU have given Me, that they may be one,
even as we are." Since according to the words of the Savior, The
Father's Name is in His Name, it will help to know the Father's
Name.

Fortunately this is pretty easy, because the Old Testament was only
written in Hebrew and a number of verses are very clear in proclaim-
ing The Father's name, such as, "Sing to GOD ... whose name is
YAH" (Psalm 68:4). Also the Scriptures are full of the expression
Hallelujah, a phrase very familiar to Christians, but do you know what
it means in Hebrew?

It is actually Hallelu YAH, a command meaning, "Give praise to YAH."

None of this is secret stuff, for it is found in the marginal readings of
many bibles today; for example, look at Psalms 116:19 in the New
American Standard Bible.

So how do you say the Savior's name in His language? Well, it would
be Joshua, except that the letter "J" in English was originally a "Y"
sound. So His name, which has His Father's name in it, is Yahshua.
And it has such a wonderful meaning that both Yoseph and Miriam
marveled over it, because they knew full well what that name meant
in their native Hebrew language.

It means YAH (translated "I Am", Exodus 3:14) Shua ("mighty and
powerful to save"). So when the angel told this name to them, they
were astounded, for His name was a declaration from The GOD of
Heaven to mankind that there would be born a man who would be
"mighty and powerful to save".

"And you shall call His name Yahshua, for it is He who will save His
people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21).

Now that scripture makes total sense.

.......The Weight of Tradition.......

But does it really matter to GOD what name we call The Messiah?

It certainly was important enough for the Savior to cry out during the
last hours before He was betrayed, "Holy Father, keep them in Your
NAME, the Name which YOU have given Me" (John 17:11).

And as stated before, it was clear to the Jews what that name was
and how to pronounce it. HalleluYAH is a universal expression, and
YAH is the universal name of GOD. Yet so great is the weight of
tradition that men have been blindly clinging to a name that has no
meaning and makes the Scriptures mentioned have no meaning,
either.

Can anyone possibly maintain that The NAME of The Father is
somehow incorporated into the name Jesus, or that the name
Jesus means that "He will save His people from their sins"?

Those with "eyes to see", can see that The Messiah's GOD
given Name at birth was Yahshua, and if you prefer the modern
day English transliteration of The Messiah's GOD given birth
Name, then that would be Joshua, in Spirit and Truth.......

The vain "imag"inations of the "catholic" and "christian" systems
of religion have caused "The Way of Truth to be evil spoken of",
so why continue to use their "imag"ined name for "The Son of
Living GOD"?

As for me, my preference is to call The Messiah, Immanuel, for as
the apostle Paul testified, "GOD was in The Messiah", Paul did

not testify that "god was the messiah".

Immanuel! (GOD with us) in The Messiah in Spirit and Truth.......

And while there is breath(Spirit) there is hope!

For Miracles do happen!

Hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is
receiving "a love of The Truth".......

Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this wicked world....... francisco
Offline Yada  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2008 8:19:08 AM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

A bit of drama earlier today in the YY Study Group room on Paltalk. After posting the content of a previous e-mail I got from Yada in the room to support the use of the Name "Yahshua," one of our 'admins' left and notified me that he was not going to come back unless I allowed others to use "Yeshua."

I have reprinted Yada's e-mail to me below. You decide.

Quote:
From: Yada
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 1:49 PM
To: Yada
Subject: RE: I Say Yahushua, You Say Yeshua - the discussion continues.

He is wrong. He is unaware of his history and Yahweh's Word. He doesn't know paleo-Hebrew. He is unaware of the role rabbis and Masoretes played in changing and corrupting Scripture. And you have posted some of the Scripture references to it. But, that said, you aren't going to get him to change his mind.


There are many great scholarly sites which are dedicated to this specific topic. I will find some of them for you. You can start by going to this URL and posting what it reveals: http://www.eliyah.com/yahushua.html


Some have written me asking for an explanation of why I use the form "Yahushua" in reference to the Messiah while others use "Yahshua", "Yeshua" or "Yehoshua". The purpose of this study is to go through each of these pronunciations and determine which is the most correct.

I'm not one that believes that you need to pronounce the Messiah's name exactly like I do in order to be saved. However, the issue of the Messiah's name is a very important one. If you don't believe me, read the below scriptures:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Yahushua Messiah for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Yahushua Messiah of Nazareth, rise up and walk."

Acts 3:16 "And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which [comes] through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Acts 4:7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, "By what power or by what name have you done this?"

Acts 4:10 "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Yahushua Messiah of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom Elohim raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.

Acts 4:12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 4:17 "But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threaten them, that from now on they speak to no man in this name." 18 And they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Yahushua.

Acts 4:30 "by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Yahushua."

Acts 5:28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"

Acts 5:40 And they agreed with him, and when they had called for the apostles and beaten [them], they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Yahushua, and let them go. 41 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of Elohim and the name of Yahushua Messiah, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Master Yahushua.

Acts 9:14 "And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name." 15 But the Master said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 "For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."

Acts 9:21 Then all who heard were amazed, and said, "Is this not he who destroyed those who called on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them bound to the chief priests?"

Acts 9:27 But Barnabas took him and brought [him] to the apostles. And he declared to them how he had seen the Master on the road, and that He had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Yahushua.

Acts 9:29 And he spoke boldly in the name of the Master Yahushua and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him.

Acts 10:43 "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."

Acts 15:14 "Simon has declared how Elohim at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.

Acts 15:26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Master Yahushua Messiah.

Acts 16:18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Yahushua Messiah to come out of her." And he came out that very hour.

Acts 18:15 "But if it is a question of words and names and your own law, look [to] [it] yourselves; for I do not want to be a judge of such [matters]."

Acts 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Master Yahushua.

Acts 19:13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Master Yahushua over those who had evil spirits, saying, "We exorcise you by the Yahushua whom Paul preaches."

Acts 19:17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Master Yahushua was magnified.

Acts 21:13 Then Paul answered, "What do you mean by weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Master Yahushua."

And this is just in the book of Acts! The name of Yahushua is intricately linked with the person of Yahushua. So in light of the numerous scriptures which show us the importance of His name, we should at least seek to understand how it is pronounced. It is obviously important according to scripture.

Origin of the name "Jesus"

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, the etymological origin of "Jesus" is:

Jesus ..Middle English, from Late Latin Isus, from Greek Isous, from Hebrew yû', from yhôûa', Joshua...

Notice that it says that the origin of His name is from Latin, then Greek, then Hebrew. So the name "Jesus" is the result of 3 different languages placing their influence on the original name the disciples were proclaiming, baptizing in and praying in. Some of the influence is quite recent. In the 1611 King James Version, it originally had "Iesus" rather than "Jesus" (photo). Later revisions of the KJV changed it to "Jesus". This leads me to ask some important questions: "Who is the one who gets to decide what it is changed to? Man or Yahweh? And if Yahushua is supposed to be the same yesterday, today and forever, why do they keep changing His name?"

If you look up the name "Jesus" in a Strong's lexicon it has "Iesous":

"2424 Iesous ee-ay-sooce' of Hebrew origin (3091); Jesus (i.e. Yahushua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites:--Jesus."

Notice that it traces the name of Messiah to Hebrew word #3091 in the Strong's lexicon. This name is the same name as "Joshua, Son of Nun". In the Hebrew, this name is spelled .

While there are some out there claiming that "Jesus" is somehow derived from "Zeus", I have yet to find anyone who is willing to present hard evidence of this claim. One person wrote a book which claimed that "Iesous" means "Hail Zeus". When I contacted him by phone and asked him for evidence of this claim, he said "Iesous" means "Hail Zeus" in the sense that when you say the "Ie" it sounds like "Yaayy" and "Yaayy" is what people do in modern sports games when they hail their team. Thus, the statement that "Iesous" meant "Hail Zeus" had nothing to do with its meaning in the Greek language.

In fact, the Greek language spells Zeus (#2203 in the Strong's Lexicon) as ZeuV and doesn't even have the same letters or sound as the second syllable in IhsouV (Iesous). First of all, the Z in ZeuV produces a "dz" sound, not an "s" sound. Also the eu combination in ZeuV sounds like "eu as in feud", a letter combination not found in any form of IhsouV/Iesous. So is ZeuV is actually pronounced "Dzyooce" and not "Sooce". These things alone make it appear quite impossible that Iesous comes from "Zeus". Look at the first page of the Greek Lexicon in your Strong's concordance if you want confirmation of the sounds of these Greek letters.

Another important point is that the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that was completed many years before Yahushua came to earth, also rendered the Hebrew name "Yahushua" as IhsouV (Iesous). This fact alone clearly demonstrates that "Iesous" is a Greek form of and wasn't a form invented by apostate Christians who wanted to honor Zeus in some way.

Interestingly, there is evidence that although the name of Yahushua was written in Greek as IhsouV, it may have actually been pronounced the way a Hebrew speaking person would pronounce it. Around 178 CE, a pagan by the name of Celsus engaged in written debates with Christians. In one of them, Celsus (speaking of Christians) said:

"But of course they think otherwise: they assume that by pronouncing the name of their teacher they are armored against the powers of the earth and air. And they are quite insistent on the efficacy of the name as a means of protection: pronounce it improperly, they say, and it is ineffective. Greek and Latin will not do; it must be said in a barbarian tongue to work. Silly as they are, one finds them standing next to a a statue of Zeus or Apollo or some other god, and shouting, "see here: I blaspheme it and strike it, but it is powerless against me for I am a Christian." Celsus on the True Doctrine, A Discourse Against the Christians, R. Joseph Hoffman (page118)

Notice that Celsus was quoting Christians as saying that the name of "their teacher" (Yahushua no doubt) must not be spoken "improperly" and that it must not be spoken in a "Greek" way or "Latin" way, but in a "Barbarian tongue" for it to be effective. Of course, to the pagans the Hebrew language was nothing more than a barbarian language. This lends evidence that even though the name of Yahushua was written as IhsouV, there were at least some people speaking it in the Hebrew way. The Greek alphabet simply lacks the letters necessary to correctly convey how the name is pronounced in Hebrew.

So how is the name pronounced? Let's start with the form that is found in various Hebrew Lexicons: "Yehoshua".

Yehoshua

In the Strong's concordance and other Hebrew Lexicons, the pronunciation listed for the Messiah's name is typically "Yehoshua". While I do not believe we should be getting all of our Hebrew learning from a Strong's lexicon alone (that would be dangerous), most of us do own a Strong's Concordance so I will be using it during this study for the purposes of illustration.



The reason for the "Yehoshua" pronunciation is due to the Hebrew vowel pointing added by the Masorite scribes. The vowel points are the little dots and dashes under and above certain Hebrew letters. Unlike English, Hebrew was written with mostly all consonants. It was up to the reader to supply the vowels in each word based on the context of the word. The Masorites were concerned that Hebrew was becoming a lost language so they invented the vowel point system to preserve the sounds of the Hebrew language. However, in keeping with tradition they were not interested in letting everyone speak the pronunciation of the Heavenly Father's name. For this reason, they pointed the Heavenly Father's name to produce the sound "Yehovah".



To avoid speaking the Heavenly Father's name, the Jewish tradition was to say "Adonai" ("Lord") instead of Yahweh. For this reason, our English bibles also say "LORD" instead of "Yahweh". So rather than supplying the true vowels of the Heavenly Father's name, the scribes inserted the vowels for "Adonai" so that the reader would be reminded to say "Adonai" rather than Yahweh.

But what if the Hebrew scriptures contained a phrase such as "Adonai Yahweh" (Master Yahweh)? They would then have to say "Adonai Adonai", a rather odd (if not a bit embarrassing) phrase. Their solution was to put the vowel points for "Elohim" within the Heavenly Father's name so that they would be reminded to say "Adonai Elohim" instead of "Adonai adonai". This is even mentioned in the Strong's lexicon and it lists it as a different word number. Read what it says:

"136" is the Hebrew word "Adonai" and "430" is the Hebrew word "Elohim". So these vowel points are used within the Father's name whenever His name follows 136 (Adonai). And they pronounce this as 430 (Elohim) to avoid having to say Adonai twice. For this reason, many English translations will render "Adonai Yahweh" as "the Lord GOD" with "GOD" being in all capitals to let the reader know that this is where the sacred name is found in the Hebrew. Very few even know that this is why "GOD" is sometimes in all capital letters (See Gen 15:2 for one of hundreds of examples of this). It is amazing how far men will go in order to cleave to tradition!

So how does this relate to the pronunciation of the Messiah's name? Let's take a look at His name again in the Strong's Lexicon:

Notice that there are other names listed in the Strong's concordance which contain the first three letters of Yahweh's name. And just like Yahweh's name which starts with the "Yeho" vowel points, they use the "Yeho" vowel points in "Yehoram", "Yehosheba", "Yehoshaphat" and numerous other names which contain the first part of Yahweh's name. The scribes apparently did not want anyone to accidentally pronounce the Heavenly Father's name when saying these other names, so they changed the vowel points of those names as well.

Interestingly, they did not change the pronunciation of these same three letters when it was at the end of a person's name. For instance, look at how Zechariah's name is presented in the Hebrew text:



Notice the different vowel pointing and pronunciation herein ("ZecharYahu"). Phonetically, the first three letters in the Heavenly Father's name are also pronounced "Yahu". For this reason, the Heavenly Father's name can be written as "YAHUeh" or "YAHWeh" and the same pronunciation will result, just as in the word "Persuade" could also be spelled "Perswade". I prefer to use a W so that there is less confusion over how the name is to be pronounced.

By the way, for those who think we cannot know what the vowel sounds were in Yahweh's name, it only takes a little research to find the pronunciation of "Yod Heh Waw" because the scribes had no problem giving the correct pronunciation of these three letters at the end of a name. Because it ends in 'Yahu', there was considered to be no risk in accidentally saying "Yahueh/Yahweh". This would also explain why the scribes used the correct vowel points in the shortened form of Yahweh's name ("Yah"):



They even used the correct vowel pointing in "HalleluYah". Thus, the only time they would revert to the "Yeho" pronunciation of these three letters was when it was at the beginning of a Hebrew name. But I want nothing to do with the unscriptural tradition of saying "Adonai/Lord/Elohim/God" in place of Yahweh. That is one reason I do not refer to the Messiah as "Yehoshua". "Yeho(ah)" does not save, "Yahu(eh)" saves!

Having said this, there are some Hebrew students and scholars who have noticed that a natural progression of Hebrew language is to shorten the first vowel and lengthen the second whenever the accent is on the third syllable (in this case "shu") of a Hebrew word. This would indeed result in the "Y'hoshua" or "Yehoshua" pronunciation. For this reason, some believe "Yehoshua" to actually be the correct pronunciation.

But while this may be true in normal Hebrew words, there is plenty of evidence to support that this was not true in personal names--especially with names containing the first part of Yahweh's name. The Murashu texts, dated 5th century BCE and written on clay tablets in cuneiform script, list the names of about 70 Jewish settlers in Persia. In these tablets, vowels are used. The Hebrew names which begin with Yod Heh Waw all are written "Yahu-" and never "Y'ho".

"In the cuneiform texts Yeho [YHW], Yo [YW] and Yah [YH] are written Yahu, as for example in the names Jehu (Yahu-a), Jehoahaz (Yahu-khazi) and Hezekiah (Khazaqi-yahu)" A. H. Sayce in "Higher Criticism" notes on p. 87

Notice that not only were names beginning with "Yeho" written as "Yahu", but also names beginning with "Yo" such as "Yoseph" (Joseph) and "Yoel" (Joel) were written as "Yahu". This indicates Joseph and Joel were originally "Yahuseph" and "Yahuel".

Also, cuneiform tablets (also containing vowels) were discovered near the Ishtar gate in Babylon which give a list of workers and captives to whom rations were given. In addition to validating the biblical account in 2Kings 25:27-29 where it mentions that Jehoiachin (Yahuiachin) ate at the King's table, these tablets help to establish the way these names were pronounced before the Masorite scribes inserted their vowel pointings based on tradition:

"Yaukin, king of the land of Yahud," ("Jehoiachin, the king of the land of Judah")

Another witness is found in an inscription of the Assyrian monarch Tiglath-pileser III (Gressmann Bilder 348; ANET 282a). When listing those kings who were paying tribute to this Assyrian King, it mentions "Yauhazi", also known as "Ahaz". Various lexicons such as the New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon (p. 219 b) and the Hebrew Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (under "Ahaz") mention this inscription as well.

With all the evidence, it becomes clear that the name was never originally pronounced "Yehoshua". Rather "Yahushua" is more correct and there is no reason mispronounce the Heavenly Father's name when speaking the name of His Son. Just as names which end with a reference to Yahweh correctly convey the Father's name ("ZecharYah/ZecharYahu"), so do the names which begin with it.

Yeshua

Much used by the Messianic movement, "Yeshua" is actually an Aramaic form of the Hebrew name "Yahushua". In the Hebrew script, it is not spelled the same as Yahushua. The "Yeshua" name, spelled(Yod Shin Waw Ayin), is found in the books of Nehemiah and Ezra where it lists the names of those who returned from the Babylonian exile. One of them is called "Jeshua, the son of Jozadak":

Ezra 3:2 Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the Elohim of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of Elohim.

"Jeshua the Son of Jozadak" is the same High Priest mentioned in Zechariah 6:

Zechariah 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

Notice that in Zechariah, he is not called "Jeshua the son of Jozadak" but he is called "Joshua the son of Josedech" (Heb. Yahushua the son of Yahutsadak). This reflects the Hebrew spelling of the same name. So in Zechariah, he is called Yahushua but in Ezra he is called Yeshua. The book of Nehemiah also changes the name of Joshua the son of Nun to "Jeshua, the son of Nun":

Nehemiah 8:17 And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness.

The change in spelling to "Jeshua/Yeshua" ("Yod Shin Waw Ayin" ) is due to the Aramaic influence during the exile. In fact, parts of the book of Ezra are written in Aramaic. For confirmation, look at your Strong's Lexicon:



Notice that #3442 and #3443 are the same exact word with the same Hebrew spelling, but this lexicon lists them separately. Why is this? Well, if you looked up "Jeshua" in the concordance, you will notice that it lists "Jeshua" in Ezra 3:2 as coming from #3442 and "Jeshua" in Ezra 5:2 coming from #3443. The reason for the two different Strong's word numbers is Ezra 5:2 is a part of the book of Ezra which was written in Aramaic (Ezra 4:8 through 6:18; 7:12-26). This is why #3443 mentions "Yeshuwa" as coming from "Chaldean" in the above definition (3443.Yeshuwa' (Chald.)). Therefore, "Yeshua" is actually an Aramaic rendering of "Yahushua".

Now, some claim that Yeshua is a pure Hebrew word which isn't derived from "Yahushua" at all, but that it is a Hebrew word meaning "Salvation". The problem with that is the Hebrew word for "Salvation" is not (yeshua) at all! The Hebrew word for "Salvation" is word number #3444. Take a look again in the above lexicon graphic and see the differences between 3442/3443 and 3444. They are:

There is an additional Hebrew letter at the end (the "Heh"). uses the silent (but anciently guttural) "Ayin" letter to end the word, but #3444 ends in the letter "Heh". While vowel letter under both words indicate they have have a similar sounding ending, the different spelling indicates they are two different words.

In #3444 (Yeshuwah) there is a different vowel pointing under the first Hebrew letter (Yod [remember Hebrew reads from right to left]). 3442/3443 (YESHUA) has 2 horizontal dots underneath the first letter like this: . These two horizontal dots represent the Hebrew Vowel point "Tsere" (pronounced Tsey-rey) which produces the "ey" sound as in the English word "Hey". But #3444 has two vertical dots underneath the first letter like this . The two vertical dots represent the Hebrew vowel point "Sheva" which is a very short "e", somewhat like our "E" sound in the word "Average" (Check the first page of your Strong's Hebrew Lexicon for verification of this).

Incidentally, the (Sheva) is also the vowel point used by the scribes in "Yehoshua" and it is why you will sometimes see "Yehoshua" or "Yeshua" written as "Y'hoshua" and "Y'shua". The purpose of the ' is to indicate the presence of the sheva vowel point in Hebrew. But as you can see, "Yeshua" does not contain that vowel point at all. "Yeshua" uses the "Tsere" Hebrew vowel point which produces an "ey" sound. So Yeshua and Y'shuah are actually pronounced differently. The Strong's Lexicon indicated this when it gave the pronunciation of as 'yay-shoo-ah', but #3444 as 'yesh-oo-aw'.
So the name "Yeshua" and the Hebrew word "Y'shuah" are not the same. "Yeshua" is the Aramaic form of "Yahushua" and "Y'shuah" is the Hebrew word for "Salvation". Therefore, in spite of what some may say, I find no evidence to suggest that("Yeshua") means "Salvation" in Hebrew. "Yeshua" is actually not an authentic Hebrew word meaning "salvation". For it to mean "Salvation" it would have to have the Hebrew letter "heh" added to the end of it, changing the spelling to Yod Shin Waw Ayin Heh and it would need to have the "Sheva" vowel point under the Yod. These things further indicate that "Yeshua" isn't from Hebrew, but is an Aramaic form of "Yahushua".

Since the Heavenly Father's name (Yahweh) is a Hebrew name, I would not expect to see His Son's name coming from some other language, whether it be Greek, Latin, Aramaic or English. If neither of these languages do it right, why not return to the original and correct form?

Yahshua

This is another popular way of writing the Messiah's name but I have never seen an example of this word anywhere in scripture. It appears to have its origins in the Sacred Name movement in the 1930's when certain men saw that "Jesus" was derived from "Joshua". Since they understood that the "J" sound is not in the Hebrew language, "Yahshua" was apparently considered correct. It made sense so I used this form for many years. However, I later learned that "Yahshua" clearly ignores the third letter of the Messiah's name (Waw) which gives us the "oo" (u) sound in Yahushua. To demonstrate this, let's look at the individual letters of .

Yod - Produces a "Y" or "I" sound.

Heh - As a Hebrew vowel letter it produces the "Ah" or "Oh" sound (like in #8283 "Sarah" and #8010 Sh'lomoh). Otherwise produces the "H" sound and the "ah" sound would have to be supplied by the reader.

Waw - Also called "Vav". As a Hebrew vowel letter it produces an "oo" (u) or "oh" sound (like in #7307 Ruach). Otherwise produces a "W" sound. This is the ignored letter in the pronunciation "Yahshua". This letter is nowhere represented. Where is the W or initial U??

Shin - Produces the "sh" sound. The following "oo" sound is indicated by a vowel pointing but Deut. 3:21 and Judges 2:7 actually gives us another "waw" after this letter, proving the "shu" pronunciation as valid. This is why Strong's 3091 gives 2 possible spellings (see above lexicon graphic). This also eliminates "Yasha/Yahusha" and "Yahoshea/Yahushea" as being possibilities.

Ayin - Silent without a vowel point but indicates an "ah" sound at the end of "Yahushua".

So if the Messiah's name was "Yahshua", we would have to delete the third letter (waw) in . For this reason, cannot not be pronounced "Yahshua".

There are some who claim that "Yahshua" is actually the correct pronunciation of the Aramaic word ("Yeshua") and the Hebrew scribes simply took out the proper vowel sounds, replacing the "Yah" with "Ye". But as mentioned before,is not a legitimate Hebrew word. Also, as seen in the above scans of the Strong's Lexicon (and the Hebrew manuscripts as well), the scribes used the "Sheva" vowel pointing to replace the "Ah" sound in "Yahweh" and "Yahushua", not the "Tsere" vowel pointing as is found in the name "Yeshua". If they were interested in changing the vocalization of "Yeshua" to fit their tradition, one would expect them to use the as they did in and all of the other names beginning with "Yah".

Why use Yahushua?

Since we seek to walk in the truth, we should want to proclaim His name as Yahweh gave it. Yahweh is the one who named His Son and we simply have no business changing it. It is all these changes that has brought about the confusion. It can be complicated to sort through it all, but truth seeking is an honorable thing that is pleasing in Yahweh's eyes.

Of course, if we are somehow unable to pronounce the Messiah's name, certainly Yahweh is able to show mercy. But if we are able to, what reason do we have to continue in error? It is better to cleave to what Yahweh gave rather than continuing in the traditions and mistakes of men. Continuing in error is never superior to walking in the truth.

Yahweh predicted what His Son's name would be, so we have something we can look to for clarification. In the book of Zechariah, it states:

Zechariah 6:9-13 And the word of Yahweh came unto me, saying, 10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah; 11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua [YAHUSHUA] the son of Josedech, the high priest; 12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh Yahweh of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of Yahweh: 13 Even he shall build the temple of Yahweh; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

"The Branch" is a prophetic reference to the coming Messiah who would be a Priest AND King (Compare Psallm 110, Isaiah 9:6).

So Zechariah was instructed to take a crown and place it on the head of Yahushua (in the Hebrew it has ), the son of Yahutsadak. Yahutsadak means "Yahweh is righteous". When placing the crown on the head of the High Priest, Zechariah was told to proclaim:

"Behold the man whose NAME is the BRANCH".

Thus, this High Priest (Yahushua) had the same name as the coming Messiah who would reign as a priest on His throne. Yahweh revealed what His name would be, so why not call Him by that name? We see the examples of the apostles who were proclaiming His name, baptizing in His name, healing in His name, being persecuted for His name, etc. Let's be willing to do the same by using the Messiah's name as it is written and understood in Hebrew with a very important Hebrew meaning:

Yahweh saves!


Here is another good site: http://www.scatteredsheep.com/holy_names.htm



[The link bar feature is not available in this web]
by Phil Maxwell
You won't go too far at this site without realizing that we use uncommon forms of both God and the Messiah's names: YHWH or Yahweh and Yahshua, respectively. Unfortunately, because of this, people tend to hastily associate us with beliefs, practices, and/or groups with which we absolutely have neither affinity nor affiliation. Strangely, we get the same from many of those because we have no superstitious reservations about using terms like 'Jesus', 'Christ', 'Lord', 'the Father', 'God', etc. Thus, please allow me to qualify OUR intents and purposes in this matter:

We respect everyone we know enough to strive to speak and spell their names accurately and see no reason to deny the same to the two most important figures in our life: Our Father and God, Yahweh, and our Lord and Savior, Yahshua. RESPECT is the main issue, not the spelling and pronunciation. We grant the same regard we give on this matter, that is, that how we address or refer to someone is only an issue between the two parties and, therefore, no one else's concern.
Although most 'sacred name' groups practice the 'if some is good, more is better' mentality, we see no reason to 'Hebrew-ize' every English rendition of Biblical names. Rather, we prefer to simply communicate with the fewest possible encumbrances on those who we only currently speak OF and not TO.
Also, unlike most 'sacred name' groups, we are not amongst those who render grace ineffective by striving for righteousness under the law.
You say KRI-ZOO-SKEE, I say SHA-SHEF-SKEE
Transcription vs. Transliteration
(Excerpt from CCBTC vs Yahshua Debate)

...I'd like to comment on the underlying issue alluded to here: transliteration vs. transcription. Because transliteration is directed at spelling, it is a poor tool for conveying correct pronunciation of proper names from one language to another.

A good example is the well known Duke University basketball coach, Mike Krzyzewski, which is properly pronounced 'sha-shef-skee', not 'kri-zoo-skee' as one would pronounce it using English phonetics. No English speaking person would pronounce his name correctly based on the spelling, nor would they spell it correctly based on the pronunciation.

As long as we have reliable information on both spelling and pronunciation, the proper thing to do would be to spell it 'Kryzewski' and pronounce it 'Shashefski', but what if we didn't have complete and reliable information? We would be forced to judge how we spell and pronounce his name based on the best information we had available.

Similarly, we really don't have reliable or complete information on either the spelling or the pronunciation of the Messiah's name in Hebrew or Aramaic. This forces us to judge both how we spell His name in English and pronounce it with our English trained tongues based on the information available.

Since modern English didn't even exist 2,000 years ago, the fact is that there is no "correct" English spelling until and unless a divine mandate is given to that effect. For example, only Mike Kryzewski or his ancestors have authority to determine the "correct" English spelling of their name. Likewise, the only "correct" spelling of the Messiah's name would be how HE spelled it in whatever language He may have rendered it in His day. Anything else can be no more than conjecture. Transliterating previously rendered transliterations may be a viable approach, but not the only one.

Another approach would be to attempt to discern the correct original pronunciation and transcribe an English spelling...
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Offline Icy  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2008 11:20:53 AM(UTC)
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I hate to say it, but the filter has to go. This was very difficult to read when every time Ye shua (and the other blocked spellings) were used it said Yahshua. For anyone that doesn't realize there is a filter, the above is just gobalty gook (kinda like my spelling of these words). Even for those that realize there is a filter, it was a very difficult read. So, I must plead with you to remove the filter. If someone uses an incorrect name form, then we should point them to this, or some other post that explains why what they are saying is incorrect.

Oh, and after removing the filter, you might need to edit and repost the above so that it is understandable.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2008 1:17:54 PM(UTC)
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I have to agree with Icy... :)
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline shalom82  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2008 6:38:28 PM(UTC)
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As I have said before I personally think that we must have a live and let live policy as it pertains to Messiah's name. The debate as I see it centers around how to pronounce the more popular rendering within Messianism. That being Yod Shin Waw Ayin (יֵשׁוּעַ). As for pronounciations of Yod Shin Waw Ayin we have Ye shua, Y'shua, Yahshua, and Yashua...or perhaps they are all wrong and it should be pronounced Yay-shoo-a. I don't think that Yahshua is a feasible rendering for Yod Heh Waw Shin Ayin. As has been evidenced we all hold a great deal of respect for our brother Eliyah of Eliyah.com as can be seen by our prolific reference to and use of his material on this post and throughout others on the forum. As the article by Eliyah stated above, Yahshua is just not a feasible rendering for Yod Hey Waw Shin Ayin just as it is not feasible for any Hebrew name with the 3 letter Theophoric element. The Waw is to be pronounced. The Murashu and Assyrian texts verify this. If there is going to be argument over this issue we might as well get it right and insist upon Yahushua as the promised name of Zecharyahu's prophecies and that Yahushua (the Judge) and Yahushua the Messiah shared the same name which is almost universally accepted and admitted. I don't know about anyone else but I would rather pick my battle and try to reason with Messianic believers and Yahudim about the correctness of the form Yahushua. We keep fighting over this Yahshua/Ye shua issue and we are splitting hairs. I don't see it amounting to anything but a quagmire. It is the sound of a verb that in conversation...I honestly most of the time I can't even discern. In defense of those who would use Ye shua or Y' shua...or for that matter Yashua.... there is no Heh in Yod Shin Waw Ayin. So at least in the context of writing it could be argued that those forms are more correct than Yahshua which even if the pronounciation could be considered correct is misleading because for better or worse people automatically think of the Yod Heh association to Yah...as in halleluYah. I have never seen any evidence that such a name exists. that is spelled Yod Heh Shin Ayin or Yod Heh Shin Waw Ayin.

The name Ye shua...or if this is an argument over the vowel Y'shua is noted in the scriptures and is connected to Yahushua. Other names such as Yoel, Yochanan, and Yoseph are all shortenings of the Theophoric originals. Whether it is a Hebrew shortening or an Aramaic derivative can be debated (I personally believe it is an Aramaic derivative)...but the fact remains that both Yahushua and Y'shua were in common usage during the second temple period. I don't see any reason why these names have to be mutually exclusive. I have a sincere question and in no way am I being sarcastic. Where are we going to draw the line of the acceptable and unacceptable? If someone pronounces Yahushua with a gutteral H like Yah-hoo-shua or pronunces it as Yahoshua with a long O instead of an oo sound...are we going to argue and debate and disenfranchise and cause hurt feelings and harm Messianic fellowships over vowels and stresses? I have a strong belief that the issues with the name of the Messiah just as it is with the true pronounciation of YHWH will not be fully and completely resolved until Shiloh returns. We don't have all that long to wait...but still a little bit more. Those in both camps of Yod Shin Waw Shin Ayin and Yod Shin Waw Ayin have progressed past Jesus Christ, both camps realizing there is something more to the Hebrew name. Both realize that just as we wouldn't call Giuseppe Verdi Joseph Green we shouldn't call Immanuel, The Messiah, The Branch, The Suffering Servant, The Savior, The King, The Face of Elohim, the Memra, the Devar YHWH, the Lamb of Elohim, the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ. As I have said before I fully and completely believe in the correctness of Yahushua and for that reason I will continue to use and strongly advocate Yahushua. How much more so does the Messiah deserve all glory, reverence, and Praise. However, having said that I will continue to respect the Yod Shin Waw Ayin crowd and respect their use of Ye shua. Hey, at least we agree on Shua/Salvation. And most that at least I haved talked to will admit that the Yod represents a shortening of the theophoric element. Thus they also render Ye shua as YHWH's salvation. Now for the sake of honesty...not all do....rather saying it means "He will save". As I tolerate and accept...I will of course at the same time with love and understanding try to offer why I believe that Yahushua is the proper rendering of Messiah's name....just as I would allow them to convince me of Ye shua. I plan to live by the golden rule in all things and specifically as it pertains to this issue. Of course it goes without saying that I do expect the same treatment and the same respect for Yahushua as I am giving Ye shua. I expect that I won't be bullied or ostracized. I don't think that we can't be one big happy family because of this issue. And just remember one thing. When we argue over such things like the semantics of names, the rabbinics, the catholics, and everyone else has a field day with us. They laugh at and prey off of our disunity and one of the fundamental weakness in the messyantic movement....our stubborn inability to swallow our pride. Once again, I personally advocate Yahushua replete with it's full theophoric element in all it's glory and honor. Once again...this respect and tolerance has to be a two way street...for both sides of the issue. We all have to be willing to turn the other cheek. And I will ask for one request that you bear in mind when reading this. I am asking for compromise and open hearts....yes...but I think we can all realize that I am not asking for compromise on issues like declaring the name of YHWH, the relevance of Torah, the absolute necessity of the Miqra and the seventh day Sabbath, or Yah Forbid the divinity of Yahushua. There are some things that we can never compromise on and I wouldn't even think to ask for such concessions. Please also as you consider this do not think that I am siding with Mainline Ye shua Messianics and trying to degrade Yada. I don't think we ever offer him enough thanks for all the loving labor he puts into the YY and Paltalk endeavors. It seems that from his perspective that they were entirely too sensitive and prickly about the issue and were not open to dialogue. That in no way is his fault. Spiritual maturity can often be ascertained by how fast a person is willing to leave a fellowship or congregation over minor disagreements or hurt feelings. I think you know what I mean.

I suggest that we take a poll on this issue to decide what renderings are acceptable or unnacceptable. I further suggest that we clearly and boldly proclaim Yahushua as the name of the Messiah and that that is the favored rendering of YY and the Paltalk group. In conjunction with that declaration we offer our evidence as to why we hold that this is the correct designation of Messiah. Having said that I personally believe that whatever names that the general consensus of YY members thinks is appropriate be allowed and tolerated with the same amount of respect that we would expect for Yahushua. I will subject myself to the will of the online congregation if my logic is found to be errant.

Yibarekhem YHWH

Shalom,
Shalom82

Edited by user Wednesday, May 14, 2008 8:42:49 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Yada  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2008 7:10:36 PM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

I know that my earlier post was a bit lengthy. This email was one of several I received from Yada shortly after the forum first opened and someone started posting (and defending) the name "Yeshua." Yada's response begins with:

Quote:
He is wrong. He is unaware of his history and Yahweh's Word. He doesn't know paleo-Hebrew. He is unaware of the role rabbis and Masoretes played in changing and corrupting Scripture. And you have posted some of the Scripture references to it. But, that said, you aren't going to get him to change his mind.


The balance of Yada's email, with the material and citations supporting this statement, can be found in my earlier post.
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Offline shalom82  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2008 8:39:31 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
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Location: Penna

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I have to say I was not impressed with the article at hebrewmessianic.org and I will give you an excerpt to demonstrate why.
http://hebrewmessianic.org/yahshua.htm

Excerpt:

Quote:
Regarding 'Yahshua', some prefer to say 'Yahushua', and they defend the correct pronunciation of Yahweh (bless His name!) They argue that Yahshua is probably a result of Messianic believers observing the name 'Joshua', thought they had to replace Joh by 'Yah'. It seems also, if this assertion was totally true, that they could have simply rendered it as Yoshua, if this was a simple case of replacing J by Y. For your information there is also a level of controversy concerning the Father's name 'Yahweh' (blessed be He). Some opt for Yahuweh, others Yahwah, Yahuwah, Yahoweh, Yehowah, etc. We stick to the simplicity as we feel guided the Father in having opened our eyes to knowledge and understanding, to restore the Original Good News, which understanding we got not from men. This uniformity we keep among Messianic Hebrews, which appellation was not dictated to us by men, either. If saying Yahweh is correct instead of Yahuweh, so is Yahshua acceptable, based on the same evidences. How is Yahshua acceptable based on the same evidence? This author chooses to pronounce the Waw as a W in YHWH's name and then presumes it's alright to ignore the Waw later on in Messiah's name. For sure we all know that the Yeho, Yaho, and Yahu, are way off tract.Oh Really? Why is that? Those who advocate Yahu ignore the fact that a French speaking person hearing that sound can write it as Yahou, Yahouh, or Iaou (same pronunciation). And How does French Spelling of Yod Heh Waw in any way negate the sounding of the waw?


By this sort of reasoning we could assume that the Messiah's name is Yahwshua...go ahead and try to pronounce that one.

The Eliyah article that Yada used back up what I have been saying:
Quote:
Yeshua

Much used by the Messianic movement, "Yeshua" is actually an Aramaic form of the Hebrew name "Yahushua". In the Hebrew script, it is not spelled the same as Yahushua. The "Yeshua" name, spelled(Yod Shin Waw Ayin), is found in the books of Nehemiah and Ezra where it lists the names of those who returned from the Babylonian exile. One of them is called "Jeshua, the son of Jozadak":
Ezra 3:2 Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the Elohim of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of Elohim.

"Jeshua the Son of Jozadak" is the same High Priest mentioned in Zechariah 6:

Zechariah 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

Notice that in Zechariah, he is not called "Jeshua the son of Jozadak" but he is called "Joshua the son of Josedech" (Heb. Yahushua the son of Yahutsadak). This reflects the Hebrew spelling of the same name. So in Zechariah, he is called Yahushua but in Ezra he is called Yeshua. The book of Nehemiah also changes the name of Joshua the son of Nun to "Jeshua, the son of Nun":

Nehemiah 8:17 And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness.

The change in spelling to "Jeshua/Yeshua" ("Yod Shin Waw Ayin" ) is due to the Aramaic influence during the exile. In fact, parts of the book of Ezra are written in Aramaic. For confirmation, look at your Strong's Lexicon:



Notice that #3442 and #3443 are the same exact word with the same Hebrew spelling, but this lexicon lists them separately. Why is this? Well, if you looked up "Jeshua" in the concordance, you will notice that it lists "Jeshua" in Ezra 3:2 as coming from #3442 and "Jeshua" in Ezra 5:2 coming from #3443. The reason for the two different Strong's word numbers is Ezra 5:2 is a part of the book of Ezra which was written in Aramaic (Ezra 4:8 through 6:18; 7:12-26). This is why #3443 mentions "Yeshuwa" as coming from "Chaldean" in the above definition (3443.Yeshuwa' (Chald.)). Therefore, "Yeshua" is actually an Aramaic rendering of "Yahushua".

Now, some claim that Yeshua is a pure Hebrew word which isn't derived from "Yahushua" at all, but that it is a Hebrew word meaning "Salvation". The problem with that is the Hebrew word for "Salvation" is not (yeshua) at all! The Hebrew word for "Salvation" is word number #3444. Take a look again in the above lexicon graphic and see the differences between 3442/3443 and 3444. They are:

There is an additional Hebrew letter at the end (the "Heh"). uses the silent (but anciently guttural) "Ayin" letter to end the word, but #3444 ends in the letter "Heh". While vowel letter under both words indicate they have have a similar sounding ending, the different spelling indicates they are two different words.

In #3444 (Yeshuwah) there is a different vowel pointing under the first Hebrew letter (Yod [remember Hebrew reads from right to left]). 3442/3443 (YESHUA) has 2 horizontal dots underneath the first letter like this: . These two horizontal dots represent the Hebrew Vowel point "Tsere" (pronounced Tsey-rey) which produces the "ey" sound as in the English word "Hey". But #3444 has two vertical dots underneath the first letter like this . The two vertical dots represent the Hebrew vowel point "Sheva" which is a very short "e", somewhat like our "E" sound in the word "Average" (Check the first page of your Strong's Hebrew Lexicon for verification of this).

Incidentally, the (Sheva) is also the vowel point used by the scribes in "Yehoshua" and it is why you will sometimes see "Yehoshua" or "Yeshua" written as "Y'hoshua" and "Y'shua". The purpose of the ' is to indicate the presence of the sheva vowel point in Hebrew. But as you can see, "Yeshua" does not contain that vowel point at all. "Yeshua" uses the "Tsere" Hebrew vowel point which produces an "ey" sound. So Yeshua and Y'shuah are actually pronounced differently. The Strong's Lexicon indicated this when it gave the pronunciation of as 'yay-shoo-ah', but #3444 as 'yesh-oo-aw'.
So the name "Yeshua" and the Hebrew word "Y'shuah" are not the same. "Yeshua" is the Aramaic form of "Yahushua" and "Y'shuah" is the Hebrew word for "Salvation". Therefore, in spite of what some may say, I find no evidence to suggest that("Yeshua") means "Salvation" in Hebrew. "Yeshua" is actually not an authentic Hebrew word meaning "salvation". For it to mean "Salvation" it would have to have the Hebrew letter "heh" added to the end of it, changing the spelling to Yod Shin Waw Ayin Heh and it would need to have the "Sheva" vowel point under the Yod. These things further indicate that "Yeshua" isn't from Hebrew, but is an Aramaic form of "Yahushua".

Since the Heavenly Father's name (Yahweh) is a Hebrew name, I would not expect to see His Son's name coming from some other languageI completely agree, couldn't agree more, and I have made it abundantly clear that I believe Yahushua is the only true viable choice, but I will make the concession that Aramaic was used either partially or perhaps as the main language of Judea in the time of Yahushua., whether it be Greek, Latin, Aramaic or English. If neither of these languages do it right, why not return to the original and correct form?

Yahshua

This is another popular way of writing the Messiah's name but I have never seen an example of this word anywhere in scripture. It appears to have its origins in the Sacred Name movement in the 1930's when certain men saw that "Jesus" was derived from "Joshua". Since they understood that the "J" sound is not in the Hebrew language, "Yahshua" was apparently considered correct. It made sense so I used this form for many years. However, I later learned that "Yahshua" clearly ignores the third letter of the Messiah's name (Waw) which gives us the "oo" (u) sound in Yahushua. To demonstrate this, let's look at the individual letters of .

Yod - Produces a "Y" or "I" sound.

Heh - As a Hebrew vowel letter it produces the "Ah" or "Oh" sound (like in #8283 "Sarah" and #8010 Sh'lomoh). Otherwise produces the "H" sound and the "ah" sound would have to be supplied by the reader.

Waw - Also called "Vav". As a Hebrew vowel letter it produces an "oo" (u) or "oh" sound (like in #7307 Ruach). Otherwise produces a "W" sound. This is the ignored letter in the pronunciation "Yahshua". This letter is nowhere represented. Where is the W or initial U??

Shin - Produces the "sh" sound. The following "oo" sound is indicated by a vowel pointing but Deut. 3:21 and Judges 2:7 actually gives us another "waw" after this letter, proving the "shu" pronunciation as valid. This is why Strong's 3091 gives 2 possible spellings (see above lexicon graphic). This also eliminates "Yasha/Yahusha" and "Yahoshea/Yahushea" as being possibilities.

Ayin - Silent without a vowel point but indicates an "ah" sound at the end of "Yahushua".

So if the Messiah's name was "Yahshua", we would have to delete the third letter (waw) in . For this reason, cannot not be pronounced "Yahshua". There are some who claim that "Yahshua" is actually the correct pronunciation of the Aramaic word ("Yeshua") and the Hebrew scribes simply took out the proper vowel sounds, replacing the "Yah" with "Ye". But as mentioned before,is not a legitimate Hebrew word. Also, as seen in the above scans of the Strong's Lexicon (and the Hebrew manuscripts as well), the scribes used the "Sheva" vowel pointing to replace the "Ah" sound in "Yahweh" and "Yahushua", not the "Tsere" vowel pointing as is found in the name "Yeshua". If they were interested in changing the vocalization of "Yeshua" to fit their tradition, one would expect them to use the as they did in and all of the other names beginning with "Yah".


The one article doesn't even address the issue of Yahshua but rather says that "Yehoshua equates to Yeshua based on evidences from the Talmud.


As i have said or have tried to say I love, call on and pray in the name of Yahushua. It is the promised name. So many sources from so many different viewpoints have expounded upon the fact that Yod Heh Waw Shin Ayin is indeed His name. i don't advocate Yeshua, I don't prefer Yeshua...but having said that I am willing to stretch out my arm across the aisle and join hands with those that I otherwise might have everything else in common with. I will reiterate we won't be entirely sure about the pronounciations and other semantic issues of day to day language in the Galilee until Messiah returns. On the day He returns do you think He is going to say form a Yahshua/Yahushua line and form a Yeshua line...ok...You guys in the Yeshua line...start walking towards the lake of fire. I think that he is going to be a lot more interested in what we did with that great gift...a new lease on life. I think he will be more interested in words like widows and orphans than words like pronounciation and concordance. And no, I am not talking about salvation through works...when I TRULY recieved the Besorah...I had feelings and emotions, love and empathy...sympathy that I never before had felt...i had this overwhelming love and a desire to walk out my life according to the WORD. I think that's what Ya'aqob HaTzaddik was getting at in his letter. That is what I have been trying to get at. What we can do is swallow a little bit of our pride and extend a hand. We need to examine our hearts before our minds. If we however recieve arrogance, stubborness, and condescension in return then that is not our problem if we did indeed do our best exhibit Messiah's love.

Shalom

Edited by user Wednesday, May 14, 2008 10:47:58 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Pastor_Greg  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, February 5, 2013 6:08:09 AM(UTC)
Pastor_Greg
Joined: 2/5/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: Eagle Point, OR

I was sitting in an Assembly of God church in Medford, Oregon some ten years ago. People would talk about speaking in tongues but the tongue I spoke was Hebrew. Unfortunately, I was not sure what was happening with me so I kept my mouth shut AND the pastor did not see that I had my hand only halfway up. It was a moment when he asked if anyone had a word and for the most part it seemed that it was the same elder folks that had something to say.

I will never forget what happened to me that day. A word entered my brain but I thought it was playing tricks with me. But the word was clear and concise. Believe it or not the word was YADA YA SHUA. (With the emphasis in sound of YA in both parts)

The church was released and I had gone up and asked this pastor if he knew what that meant. He said no. So later I called the Jewish Tabernacles in Ashland and one of the them did return my call and asked me if I was sure of what I had heard. I said yes. They then told me that YADA YA SHUA means to thrust out your arms in complete surrender. I couldn't have made that up. I had another close encounter of the God kind.

On a similar topic, I agree with you that the name of our creator, the most high, has a name. His son has a name. For those that are not at the maturity level of knowing the name of our master and creator, I believe that he will once again teach us his name that once was so revered that it was like a whispered sound. I am looking forward in learning it from our creator himself.
Offline knowing1  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, February 5, 2013 6:47:49 AM(UTC)
knowing1
Joined: 5/28/2010(UTC)
Posts: 166
Location: New Jersey

Welcome Greg!

Yes, there is a lot to "unlearn". For one thing Yahowah is not our master, He is our Creator who just wants us to come to know Him through observing His Word so that we can be part of His Family. You must ask yourself, what kind of insecure being would want to be called master? I will give you one guess as to the spiritual being that needs to be called master! Can you say Halal ben Shakar?

I am assuming that you meant Yahowshah and not Yeshu'ah as the two have different meanings. Yahowshah means "Yah is salvation" or "Yah saves".

The hebrew word yada means to "know in a relational sense". And the Messayah Yahowshah means "One who does the work on our behalf to save us". Therefore, Yada Yahowshah means "To know the One who does the work to save us".

Yahowah did the work for us through His implement Yahowshah to make our souls immortal on Pesach; Cleanse us of sin and perfect us on Matzah; Be born anew on Bikkurim; Enrich, empower and enlighten us on Shavuot; Sound a warning, shout for joy and act as His witnesses on Taruwah; Reconcile His relationship with Yisroel and Yahudim on Yom Kippurim; So we can spend Eternity as part of His Family on Succot.

The Messayah Yahowshah was nothing more and nothing less than Yahowah's implement to do all of this for us.

That would be my interpretation...

May Yah Bless Those Who Know...
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