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Offline Andre Sanchez  
#1 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:11:25 AM(UTC)
Andre Sanchez
Joined: 3/13/2008(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Brazil

I have been reading Yada Yahweh and I think it's a wonderful book, but I have a question. If Satan is an angel, and if angels are created to obey, how can he disobey? Does the adversary have free will? I'm confused.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 10:10:33 AM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
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Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Welcome to the forums Andre :D good to see you here!

(I can see a reply coming so I will just leave it at a lovely welcome for now :) )
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline kp  
#3 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 10:26:21 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Hi, Andrey, and welcome to the forum. The answer is quite simple. Angels are capable of autonomous action, but they are not gifted with the right to disobey their Maker. They are (in human parlance) like soldiers or slaves. They are "under orders." Can a slave refuse his master's demand? Can a soldier refuse to obey an order from a superior officer? Yes, they can, but they may not. If they do, it's an illegal act, punishable by the master or officer. The choice of whether or not to obey is not theirs to make.

Humans with a God-breathed neshama, however, are "made in the image of God"---that is, we are made with the freedom to choose our own destiny. This is one of those areas, however, that is impossible to understand in the context of the errant but well-entrenched christian doctrine that insists that if you aren't "born again" you're doomed to an eternity of torment and punishment. If there are only two doors to our eternal destiny, then our choice is a meaningless concept (because if you don't choose God's way, so the theory goes, He's going to punish you forever). You'd be just as choiceless as the angels are. But the fact is, there are three possible eternal destinations for us. We are given free will. If we choose to become Yahweh's children, that's good. If we don't (which is our prerogative, something Yada and I both refer to as "Door number 2 in our writings), we're no worse off than any animal---upon our deaths, we simply cease to be: no punishment, no torment, no recrimination---but no blessing, either. It's a terrible waste, but it's our choice. It is only if we choose to align ourselves with rebellious spirits (voluntarily taking the "third door") that we find ourselves in everlasting trouble.

So no, the adversary does not have free will, and we would be idiots to freely join ourselves to satan's cause and so inherit his destiny. Hope that helps.

kp
Offline Andre Sanchez  
#4 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:02:16 AM(UTC)
Andre Sanchez
Joined: 3/13/2008(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Brazil

I'm not sure I understand the distinction.

Swalchy wrote:


Welcome Andre!

Whilst Satan is an Angel and Angels are created to obey, they are still given one choice - To obey or disobey.

If they obey, then nothing happens. But the moment they disobey, that's it for them - They're no longer welcome to return to Yahuweh.

So, the Angels only really have one choice, which isn't the same as free will :)


The angels supposedly hear God directly, know for a fact that he exists and specificaly what he wants of them. They don't have to worry about being crazy, they don't have to decypher ancient manuscripts, or anything of the sort. So, it seems fair that God would give us more of a chance than he gives to angels. Yet, even our chances are finite, are they not?

kp wrote:
It is only if we choose to align ourselves with rebellious spirits (voluntarily taking the "third door") that we find ourselves in everlasting trouble.

So no, the adversary does not have free will, and we would be idiots to freely join ourselves to satan's cause and so inherit his destiny. Hope that helps.

kp


That reminds me of another thing I don't understand. Can Satan give people eternal life? I assume not. So... why does God give people who align themselves with Satan eternal life? I suppose I sort of get it... if you want to be an animal, God lets you be an animal. If you want to live eternaly without God, he lets you have that too. And if you want to live eternaly with him, he welcomes you into his arms. But what does it really mean to be cast into hell? What does it mean to live without God? Will the earth, at the end of the 7th day, be delivered to Satan and his now immortal followers, while Yahweh's family goes on an eternal journey through the universe as beings of light?

Edited by user Thursday, March 13, 2008 1:36:19 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline kp  
#5 Posted : Friday, March 14, 2008 3:54:52 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Good questions, Andre. First, the way I see it, the only "choice" angels have is the same choice a corporal in the army has: whether to obey his commander's orders or not to. If he does, life is as it should be; if not, he's become a rebel, an outlaw. It's a choice, I guess, but it's anything but free will. If we had the same kind of direct communication the angels have with Yahweh---regardless of our relationship with Him---I believe that would constitute the kind of pressure that would functionally preclude our "free will," our unfettered ability to choose to seek God or not. It would be "the Godfather" all over again: "An offer you can't refuse." Decisions made under duress aren't compatible with those made because we love and are loved.

Second, satan can only "give" people eternal life (if you can call that livin') vicariously. That is, Yahweh created spirits---angels, including those who would fall---to be eternal beings: they can't die. It's not in their nature. Satan lives forever only because Yahweh created him with that capacity. He has no life within himself. Satan and his immortal human followers will not "inherit the earth." Rather, Yahweh has prepared a special place of incarceration and torment "for the devil and his angels" into which his hapless "brood of vipers" will be confined with him. The earth, meanwhile, will be "made new" (how, we aren't told) and it will apparently become the eternal home of Israel and the Millennial saints, just as the New Jerusalem will be the dwelling place of the Ekklesia of Yahshua. See Future History chapter 30: "Heaven, Hell, and Eternity" for the evidence.

kp
Offline Matthew  
#6 Posted : Friday, March 14, 2008 6:14:42 AM(UTC)
Matthew
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So with those angels who fell, did they choose to align to Satan and disobey Yahuweh, or were they under Satan's command and had no choice but to fall by obeying his command to leave with him? Because I thought if Satan rebelled, only he rebelled, that means it would've only been him around and the rest still in Yah's good books. But many fell with him, so were they under his command and fell because their leader fell, or did they really believe that Satan might actually have some power after all and they chose to join his army?

Sorry for asking the same question twice but I just wanted to make sure you guys understand what I'm asking, I'm not very good at making my points simple and concise.
Offline kp  
#7 Posted : Friday, March 14, 2008 12:23:03 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

I couldn't quote you chapter and verse, ('cause the Bible's not about angels, per se) but I get the distinct impression that angels were created to answer to Yahweh alone, and if they rebel, they do it independently---satan can't force them to "leave their first estate" but can only persuade them, seduce them, entice them. He can't force us to do anything either.

kp
Offline Andre Sanchez  
#8 Posted : Friday, March 14, 2008 3:12:19 PM(UTC)
Andre Sanchez
Joined: 3/13/2008(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Brazil

kp wrote:
Second, satan can only "give" people eternal life (if you can call that livin') vicariously.


So is the continuation of life (as bad as it may be) for satan's followers Yahweh's or satan's choice? I realize of course that you can't just phone Yahweh and ask him to explain exactly how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but one of the things I have trouble understanding, and which makes it difficult for me to make the leap of faith and trust Yahweh's scripture is the whole satan/Yahweh "conflict".


Quote:
Satan and his immortal human followers will not "inherit the earth." Rather, Yahweh has prepared a special place of incarceration and torment "for the devil and his angels" into which his hapless "brood of vipers" will be confined with him.


A problem I have is this. If satan is supposed to be smart, and if he can travel through time as a spiritual being, why did he (and other angels) choose to disobey? What was in it for him/them? Human beings supposedly can be deceived, but there was nobody to deceive satan himself. What does it really mean to be cut off from God, that is, to go to hell?

I guess, ok, God is not in the travel business. If you don't want to choose him, it's not his job to show you what is behind door number 3. Heaven is not a bribe. You can't really trust Satan to say what is there either. Yet I can't shake the feeling that there is something strange about this whole hell business. What I imagine when I think of it, is a sort of dystopian place, a mix of 1984, Brave New World and Mecca, a place that is not much different from ours superficialy, yet is based on submission, and even the possibility of love is anihilated. Basicaly, Islam or Communism, except without the good people that makes life under those regimes somewhat tolerable, just the nasty ones. A slave society so to speak, one where the is no hope. Is this view demonstrably incorrect? Are there any clear indications of what hell is supposed to be?

Offline kp  
#9 Posted : Friday, March 14, 2008 3:41:52 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Andre asks, "Is the continuation of life (as bad as it may be) for satan's followers Yahweh's or satan's choice?" Neither. It's ours. (I presume you're talking about human followers; angelic followers were already immortal.) Remember Isaiah 14? Lucifer wanted to be "like God." That presumably means that, like Yahweh, he wanted to invite humans to share his eternal abode. So the choice is ours to make: choose Yahweh and His destiny, choose satan, or remain asleep and choose nothing. Please don't make the mistake of ascribing to satan more power or authority than he actually has. Satan won't rule hell. As I wrote somewhere, he'll merely be one of the inmates, toothless and ineffectual.

Why did satan rebel? One word: pride. Satan, though an eternal being, cannot maneuver in time like Yahweh does. He travels through time in only one direction and at only one speed. He cannot see the future by being there. Sure, he's really smart and can figure things out, but when he rebelled, I believe he actually thought he could get away with it. As miscalculations go, that's a doozy. Now, of course, he knows what his fate is, and all he can do is wreak havoc until his time is up. There's no going back.

And hell? I wouldn't think of it as some sort of slave society. I see it as a state of utter aloneness, of darkness, of pressure, of unending remorse, of the eternal waking mental anguish of knowing you could have known Yahweh's love and you chose a living death instead. No rest, no respite, nothing but everlasting regret.

kp
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