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Offline Heretic Steve  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:47:10 AM(UTC)
Heretic Steve
Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

Were they evolved/dna partitioned human animals with no capacity to choose before being given the capacity to choose or were they specially created apart from the human animals that existed outside of Eden? If they had at one time been a part of the human animals outside of Eden, I wonder why they were selected?
If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline jojocc  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:11:16 AM(UTC)
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Is that 'evolved' as in suddenly sparked into life in a primordeal pool of ooze millions of years ago, or 'evolved as in YHWH formed Adam from clay then formed Chava from a spare rib, no pun intended.

I think the Torah (ergo YHWH) is pretty spicific about this, and if he says he dunnit, I'm gonna believe him.

Also, where does it say that there were human animals outside of Eden? Why are they 'animals' if there were humans outside of Eden. Incest was only forbidden at Mt. Sinai, before that it appears to have been ok...
Offline J&M  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:50:49 PM(UTC)
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Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

Shalom Swalchy& Everyone,



Can the interpretation of Yada re Nephilim answer the need for the two lines (cords,lines,ropes) that David used to determine a measurement ,I assume of height or breadth. chebelim çáìéí 2256 chebel çáì in 2 Sam 8:2. I had thought they were used to determine a 'standard' of height/breadth above which was considered a strong likelihood that the possessor of such height/breadth came from a 'nephilim' bloodline.


2Sa 8:2 And he smote5221 (853) Moab,4124 and measured4058 them with a line,2256 casting them down7901, (853) to the ground;776 even with two8147 lines2256 measured4058 he to put to death,4191 and with one full4393 line2256 to keep alive.2421 And so the Moabites4124 became1961 David's1732 servants,5650 and brought5375 gifts.4503



I look forward to your answer(s)!!!



Can some UK in the south also get to meet up at the next Miqra?

Jane
(Big Smiley)


Offline jojocc  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:46:18 PM(UTC)
jojocc
Joined: 12/1/2007(UTC)
Posts: 97

Hi Swaltchy,

I know that, I was just being a tad reactionary. Evolution still gets my blood to boil and I can't resist having a dig - thats one to hand over to YHWH for sure ;-)

Have read the chapters, but I'm still not convinced about the human 'animals' - will have to spend a lot of time chatting with my Abba YHWH and ask him what the truth is.

Jane, maybe, to all. Are you going to cook a Seder supper? I just might be in the UK at around that time ;-)

As for the Nephilim, they must have been pretty large and it is likely that the Canaanites had much Nephilic blood. If the human 'animal' theory is correct, would the Nephilim have infact provided the 'neshema' part for the animals? This would indeed have made them very similar to our fairytale Giants with limited intelligence...
Offline Heretic Steve  
#5 Posted : Saturday, February 16, 2008 8:34:54 AM(UTC)
Heretic Steve
Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

Swalch is correct. I meant evolve in the sense of dna partitioning, (micro evolution), as ambient environmental conditions softened/expanded to allow the development of more sophisticated life forms. This partitioning would ultimately "evolve" into humanoid type creatures/animals. In other words, a human with no concience, (moral compass).
Unfortunately, YY does not directly address the issue in my original post which leaves a question mark as to whether or not Adam/Chavah were created apart from the rest of the human animals, or were they human animals previous to receiving a concience.
Quite frankly, this is a serious gap in the issue that makes explaning dna partition very difficult, if not impossible, to a creationist type who believe Yah snapped His fingers/waved His magic wand and Creation magically appeared out of thin air.
If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline Icy  
#6 Posted : Sunday, February 17, 2008 3:51:35 AM(UTC)
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Swalchy, I was going to say, "That's funny that you mention 'more or less 98% alike in form'" because until recently we were thought to have dna that was 98.5% the same as chimps. But, I looked it up, and apparently now it is 95%.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2833-humanchimp-dna-difference-trebled.html

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v17/i1/DNA.asp

The second site has much more information and sites everything.
Offline jojocc  
#7 Posted : Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:40:27 AM(UTC)
jojocc
Joined: 12/1/2007(UTC)
Posts: 97

If YHWH really is as powerful enough to create the earth, why could he not have just 'snapped his fingers'?

Where in the Tanakh is there mentioned these 'human animals'. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that this does not feel right to me, I am open to YHWH changing my mind, but as it stands he has not yet done so. Why should the earth not be about 6000 years old, if the Tanakh is to be beleived ( and by that I mean completely beleived, not just cherry picking) then the ages added up would make it so. I have read the YY chapters, but it doesn't work for me. Am I the only one who feels this?
Offline kp  
#8 Posted : Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:38:15 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Jojocc wrote: "If YHWH really is as powerful enough to create the earth, why could he not have just 'snapped his fingers'?" Of course, He's powerful enough to have done that. But He didn't say that He did, not really. The language of Genesis 1 doesn't allow a strictly literal interpretation because the sun doesn't show up until after plant life. It doesn't pretend to be a scientific treatise. It's lessons lie elsewhere.

The hard data of science suggests a date of creation (though they'd never call it that) about 13.7 billion years ago. This date is not at odds with scripture, for the simple reason that scripture simply doesn't get into it. The nuts and bolts of Yahweh's creative process are not what His revelation is about. Rather, it's about the redemption of mankind. So as far as the story is concerned, "time" began the moment there was a need for our reconciliation with God--with the sin of Adam and Chavah. What happened before that is compressed into a few paragraphs and invested with the seeds of a metaphor that would recur periodically throughout Yahweh's revelation of His plan for us: there would be six thousand years of "work" followed by one Millennium of rest in God's solution. What happened afterward is edited as well: there are huge chunks of human history that scripture simply doesn't deal with, because it's not germane or essential to the story of our salvation. We're left to ponder what isn't said. As far as scripture is concerned, to paraphrase Vince Lombardy, "Redemption isn't everything; it's the only thing." Humanesque (non-neshamah-equipped) animals, then, if they ever existed, are no more part of the story of our salvation than my three cats (the fuzzy trinity) are. Yahweh never mentioned them, either.

kp
Offline Matthew  
#9 Posted : Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:33:00 PM(UTC)
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TOM - Chapter 15 - Ritual Purity - kp wrote:
(570) The seed of copulation defiles. "If any man has an emission of semen, then he shall wash all his body in water, and be unclean until evening. And any garment and any leather on which there is semen, it shall be washed with water, and be unclean until evening. Also, when a woman lies with a man, and there is an emission of semen, they shall bathe in water, and be unclean until evening." (Leviticus 15:16-18) Proving once again that being "unclean" is simply indicative of the human condition (not "sin," but necessitating purification anyway), here we see that an emission of semen defiles both the man and the woman he has lain with. It is significant that God’s very first recorded command to mankind was to "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth." (Genesis 1:28) It’s axiomatic that without the "emission of semen" and without menstruation (see Mitzvah #572), this fruitfulness would have been impossible. Yahweh, having designed us, knew that. Thus His command required us to become "defiled," even before our fall into sin.

This line of reasoning leads us to an important truth: our mortal bodies are not designed to inherit heaven. They were made for this earth--made from the same elements, from "dust." I surmise that without this physical type of construction, our God-given ability to choose between good and evil would have been meaningless. Spirits, even created spirits like angels, cannot die, and Yahweh never gave them the prerogative of choice. Their assigned role is submission, obedience, and loyalty. But choice is our primary gift. We alone are given the choice of whether to reciprocate God’s love or not. In order to choose between life and death then, we must be able to comprehend what it is to die. Paul revealed the ramifications of this to the Corinthians. His bottom line was, "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption." (I Corinthians 15:50)

Our bodies in all their attributes, whether physical, emotional, or intellectual, simply cannot stand in the presence of Almighty God, "from whose face the earth and heaven fled away." (Revelation 20:11) But Yahweh created us to enjoy fellowship with Him. To make that possible, He has implemented a two-stage solution. First God took upon Himself the image of a man: Yahshua walked among us and gave His life for us some 2,000 years ago, and has promised to come again to reign among us. This explains His title, Immanuel: "God with us."

The second phase is just the reverse: it requires us to change into the image of God. How is this done? Paul goes on to explain, sort of. "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up in victory.’" (I Corinthians 15:51-54) Believers will be changed from mortals into immortal beings, suddenly, permanently, and all at one time. Our old bodies will be transformed, recreated, translated, into a new form that, quickened by the indwelling of God’s Spirit, will live forever. Apparently, Yahshua walked among his Disciples for forty days after His resurrection in just such a body.

This new immortal, "spiritual," body cannot be defiled or made unclean. In this body, we will experience nothing that requires cleansing, and that includes "emissions of semen." Immortality apparently cannot beget mortality; life cannot father death. Right about now, all you guys are gritting your teeth and mumbling, "Shoot. I kinda liked ‘emissions of semen.’" Will God replace sex with something you’ll find even more rewarding? Count on it.


I have some questions: If Adam and Chavah remained without sin would they still be walking the earth today? If Adam was born by a humanoid, before being removed and placed in the Garden, would he not have tasted death (returned to dust) like every other animal anyway? "You return unto the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and unto dust shall you return."(Genesis 3:19) When He speaks of death in this passage, is He referring to separation, whether non-existence or eternal, instead of the act of physically dying only then to be raised up in an immortal body, or instead of physically dying being transformed in such a way as the Rapture event describes? How long would they have lived if they never sinned, because their bodies initially did come from the earth, not being a spirit being in the first place, so I assume they would have tasted physical death eventually?

Do you think they sinned before or after their first sexual copulation?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#10 Posted : Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:53:52 PM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:


I have some questions: If Adam and Chavah remained without sin would they still be walking the earth today?


Possibly, I dont know - things would probably been alot different...

Matthew wrote:
If Adam was born by a humanoid, before being removed and placed in the Garden, would he not have tasted death (returned to dust) like every other animal anyway?


I dont think he was born by another humanoid and separated, I think there were other humaniods around, but he was created seperate.

Matthew wrote:
"You return unto the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and unto dust shall you return."(Genesis 3:19) When He speaks of death in this passage, is He referring to separation, whether non-existence or eternal, instead of the act of physically dying only then to be raised up in an immortal body, or instead of physically dying being transformed in such a way as the Rapture event describes?


taking the whole of that passage it is Yah's responce to the "sin" - there is a consiquence to sin, obviously that is death, first physically and secondly seperation. But there also other consiquences as you can see in the whole of that passage.

Matthew wrote:
How long would they have lived if they never sinned, because their bodies initially did come from the earth, not being a spirit being in the first place, so I assume they would have tasted physical death eventually?


probably eternally - they were created perfect... it was only after they "sinned" that stuff had to be sorted out.

Matthew wrote:
Do you think they sinned before or after their first sexual copulation?


Im sure they had sex before they "sinned" - sex isnt a sin... if it was then breathing might be also. Its only us sick humans that make it sinful in how the world (we/us/them/everyone) has perverted it.

Obviously this is my humble opinion :)
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Matthew  
#11 Posted : Thursday, February 28, 2008 1:20:21 PM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
Im sure they had sex before they "sinned" - sex isnt a sin... if it was then breathing might be also. Its only us sick humans that make it sinful in how the world (we/us/them/everyone) has perverted it.


I should have mentioned it but my question was regarding the chances of having children being born before the fall. Her womb would have had to remain closed until after the fall in order for the sinful nature to come as part of the package of the human condition as we know it.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#12 Posted : Thursday, February 28, 2008 1:31:08 PM(UTC)
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Location: England

Matthew wrote:


I should have mentioned it but my question was regarding the chances of having children being born before the fall. Her womb would have had to remain closed until after the fall in order for the sinful nature to come as part of the package of the human condition as we know it.


Interesting, but surely we have as much potential to sin as Adam and Chav had? Personally I dont think the potential has changed - free will was always ours, personally I dont think I was born "sinful" but I do believe I was born into "sin", meaning that I had the potential to sin, and with the world as it is and our unfortunate physical seperation from Yah, I obviously took about sinning as soon as I could...

But deffo interesting on the children before fall thing, because they were given the go forth and multiply thing before the fall right? I doubt they were practicing math.. ;)

Who knows though eh, its interesting to think about but is it going to help? lol Maybe its one we have to ask about in a few years time lol
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Offline bitnet  
#13 Posted : Friday, February 29, 2008 5:05:06 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shabbat Shalom All,

Adam and Chavah were a "nice couple" in modern American parlance, and there was nothing really wrong with their relationship, sex and all. It was the sin of disbelief and disobedience that got them into trouble. Today, we find Christians trying to re-capture that which was lost, and this goes all the way to trying to recreate the innocent garden in its completeness, including family and communal nudity.

It may be true that there is nothing to be ashamed about the naked body, and that non-sexual acceptance of each nude person in these communities is a reflection of the spirit over the flesh, but the fact remains that sin is still not put out completely! Would a community of believers dressed up in suits have a better chance? It matters not. Without proper guidance and obedience they are as lost as anyone else if they continue to break the first four commandments while fulfilling the last six. No boyscout badges for this, I'm afraid.

So where are we then? No better than Adam and Chavah if we continue to put our thoughts and actions out of sync with His thoughts and actions! That is why we need the Set-Apart Spirit to protect and guide us on the right path. We need to get used to having out thoughts totally in control according to His commandments. Our thoughts are a reflection of our very essence. If we are born into His family and have conflicting thoughts it would be chaos! That is why Yahushua commanded us to gain control of our senses and thoughts. There is no room for error when you wield His authority and power!

Regarding the creation factor, Yada has written a perfectly acceptable explanation and one does not have to be a quantum physicist to understand it and accept it. Could Yahweh have created everything in an instant? Of course. But He did not. Why? There are lessons for us to learn here as well. Also, if the universe was created in an instant 6,000 years ago then it goes against many things that we have learnt and discovered from science. Could not have Yahweh created everything in an instant but give it an "appearance of age"? Of course. But why do that unless to fool or test us, and as we know, He does not deceive or lie. He may make things difficult for us but He would not deceive us. No, that is the other guy's game.

There is speculation that we have inherent sin because Chavah was beguiled by the serpent and gave birth to Cain before delivering Adam's child Abel, or that Cain was conceived with someone other than Adam thereby giving rise to a less than perfect population that spread over the earth. This simply goes against Scripture and should be ignored.

The fact is, we tried to become like Him in that we wanted to know good and evil, and we really are not prepared for this in our current condition. Better for us to trust Him and let Him bear the responsibility while we be as children trusting in our Abba to teach us to be like Him according to His time and our ability.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline YAH is my FATHER  
#14 Posted : Thursday, August 14, 2008 4:42:45 AM(UTC)
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Shalom all,

I would like to throw a little something into the mix here, and humbly seek what the general consensus of opinion according the members, might be to this text;

Genesis 1:27 “YAH created man in His own image, in the image of YAH He created him; male and female He created them.”

In humble thankfulness.

"So knowledge isn't the main measure, love of Yah and of each other is."

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