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Offline Matthew  
#1 Posted : Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:43:27 AM(UTC)
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John 16:13a "But when He comes, the Spirit of the Truth, He shall guide you into all truth." I notice some people refer to the Spirit as a 'she', but here the word 'he' is used. I know the Spirit has feminine characteristics but which is more correct, he or she?
Offline Tiffany  
#2 Posted : Sunday, January 13, 2008 6:10:53 AM(UTC)
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Matthew,

I found this note from KP regarding your question and there is some good dialog about the Spiritual mother on another thread, another thing to do is go to YY and do a search at the top of the page and it will take you to all the areas that discuss the Ruach Qodesh!!

Quote:
When Yahweh turns on the light, everything makes more sense. I could never figure out how "honoring your father and your mother" would make "your days long upon the land which Yahweh your God is giving you." There's no obvious causal connection in the temporal sense. But when I realized that Yahweh is really talking about honoring Him and about taking His Holy Spirit seriously, then it all made sense. Giving "weight" to both our heavenly Father and Mother would indeed tend to prolong life---like, forever. Our Father Yahweh is the Creator, Provider, Protector and ultimate Authority---all "male" traits. His indwelling presence, however, the Ruach Qodesh or Holy Spirit, manifests the maternal aspects of God's care. She is the Nuturer, Caregiver, Counselor, Comforter, and yes, the nose-wiper and diaper changer of our spiritual existence. Who is it that always seems to know what you're up to, even before you do? Who cries for you, prays for you, and brings your suppressed issues bubbling to the surface? It's Mom. She never lets you get away with anything, but she's always ready to forgive you, 'cause after all, you're her kid.

That's so cool!

kp


And to add a comment to the translation, well it was written by a man who had no regard for women as harsh as that may sound.

Tiffany
Offline Icy  
#3 Posted : Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:45:47 AM(UTC)
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Matthew, looking at Strong's (which I understand isn't the most accurate, since is supports the KJV) it would seem that "He" was not there in the original. The word ekeinos means literally "that one" with no sex implied. Though, the word can be used to mean "he", I suspect that it can also be used to mean "she". It would seem to me that the translators just assumed that it is "he". Also, someone correct me if I am wrong, I believe that the word pneuma for "Spirit" happens to be a feminine noun, just like the Hebrew Ruach.
Offline bitnet  
#4 Posted : Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:55:52 PM(UTC)
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While the Hebrew ascribes a feminine noun to the the Ruach Qodesh, and KP's understanding of "honouring your father and mother" is spot on, I also wish to let it be understood that we are to honour our physical parents, and that in doing so our lives here on earth would also be probably be prolonged. I have seen people disrespect their parents and fade into oblivion early in life, while those that respected their parents lived longer. (I of course do not mean to say that those who died young dishonoured their parents.) Perhaps it is Oriental thinking... but I think that there are a lot of benefits for having a healthy respect for one's parents and elders.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline kp  
#5 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2008 5:21:06 AM(UTC)
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Absolutely correct, bitnet. The fact that the commandment has a deeper, more profound meaning---one with eternal consequences---does not mitigate the fact that the plain, temporal application of the Law is of critical importance in this world. As it turns out, virtually everything in the Torah works on the same two levels (e.g. refraining from eating pigs teaches us to be discerning about what is spiritually beneficial and what is not in our lives, but it also has practical application in keeping out mortal bodies healthy).

kp
Offline shalom82  
#6 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2008 4:20:51 PM(UTC)
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I concur
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Mike_Browell  
#7 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2008 12:10:40 PM(UTC)
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Peace Sibs,

I have also read in one of the non-cannonicle RC letters that talked about how it is wrong to consider the Set-Apart Spirit the father of Messiah, becuase how could a woman be his father... I don't remember precisely which it was I'll look it up and bring in a quote and a link. ;)

Your Loving Brother,
Michael Browell

Edit:
Quote:
18. (17) Some say,that Miryâ´m conceived by the spirit of the Pure One; they are in error[E9] [Luwqá` 1: 35, Chanówkh 70: 17, ZkharYâ´hu 6: 11-12[E10] ], they do not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a female[E11] ? Miryâ´m is of the virgin [of Yisrâ’Ë´l] whom no authority defiled. She is a great exclusion from fellowship for the delegates of the `Ivríym[E12] , and their missionary men. This virgin whom no authority defiled means the authorities have defiled themselves. And the Sovereign would not have said “My Father Who is in Heaven” [MattithYâ´huw 16: 17] if He hadn’t had another father, but He would have said simply My father.

The Glad Tidings of Phílippos (Philip) - known to the establishment as "The Gospel of Philip".
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#8 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2008 1:37:47 PM(UTC)
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wow - interesting find there Mike :)
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline bitnet  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:58:04 AM(UTC)
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Hello All,

Ron Wyatt's discovery of the Blood in Yeremyahu's Cave beneath Mt Moriah reveals that there are 22 autosomes and only 1 male chromosome instead of the usual 23 pairs. He also claimed that the tests show that the blood is still alive! If the Blood is indeed alive and that of our beloved Messiyah Yahushua, what keeps it alive? Keep this in mind and then try to figure out whether the Ruach Qodesh is masculine of feminine. The original language attributes a feminine quality and it is consistent with the nurturing nature of the Set-Apart Spirit, which emanating from Yahweh, never dies! And we do know that Yahweh is our heavenly Father, so it does keep in step with a Family concept in that the Set-Apart Spirit is seen as motherly and feminine. Because of this initial understanding all other man-made religions try to have their own holy families, trying to supplant the Creator with the creation.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline galatian35  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:48:41 PM(UTC)
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First we need to remeber that Adam was made in the likeness of his Father, then even before that Yahwehs spirit which is Yahweh brooded over the Earth in Genesis 1:1.
In Matthew Mary was made pregnant by the Holy Spirit, by which she concieved a son our saviour Yahshua.

Yahwehs spirit is Yahweh, Adam was made in Yahwehs likeness, Mary was made pregnat by the Holy Spirit, Yahshua said I will send the comfortor, The promissed Holy Spirit who will link us to the Father in Truth, and reveal himself to us by that power.

Try not to spend time slicing and dicing the simple message of Salvation, lets spend our time leading others to the same truth many of us have and that is we are saved by accepting Christ(Yahshua) the Messiah as our Saviour, for I can testify that I have for 25 years have had a personal relationship with the Father, and have had the Holy Spirits power in my life long before this forum or the internet existed. If you are born again you will know the truth, and Yahwehs Spirit will reveal it to you even if we are reading imprpoperley transliterated texts, the power of the Father reaches beyond these things, and if it were not so then how would I have been able to have been saved?

The Word says that the Holy Spirit will lead you into right doctrine, and only HE can be trusted, not even Yada in all of his research, and his translations can change what the Father has in store for us. The meesage of salvation was made simple so that all may come to know the Father, I could not began to see how anyone could even begin to understand what Yada writes, because you have to have a Doctorate in Literature, and English, just to understand what he is writing.

I appreciate Yadas endeavors into deeper understanding and research, of our History, test it with the power of the Holy Spirit, and make sure you here the voice of the Father before accepting anyones views or research, remember what Paul was saying to the Galatians, the Ephsians, the Phillipians, and the Collasians, If the Laws could save you there would have been no reason for Christ (Yahshua) the Messiah to come. If that were the case the why do we even have the new Covenant, because the laws could not save us before Christ how could they save us now!!!!!

Offline Icy  
#11 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:16:02 AM(UTC)
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I didn't have any difficulty understanding Yada's writing either (though my wife couldn't process any of it).
Offline Matthew  
#12 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:48:47 AM(UTC)
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Hi Galatians, welcome to the forum!

galatian35 wrote:
Try not to spend time slicing and dicing the simple message of Salvation, lets spend our time leading others to the same truth many of us have and that is we are saved by accepting Christ(Yahshua) the Messiah as our Saviour, for I can testify that I have for 25 years have had a personal relationship with the Father, and have had the Holy Spirits power in my life long before this forum or the internet existed. If you are born again you will know the truth, and Yahwehs Spirit will reveal it to you even if we are reading imprpoperley transliterated texts, the power of the Father reaches beyond these things, and if it were not so then how would I have been able to have been saved?


Just to add to your quote. We have moved on from the milk to solid food by the leading of the Holy Spirit. And it is by the leading of the Holy Spirit that many of us have come to realise the many errant teachings of the Church. When I was a newbie Christian I was suckered into quite a few errant practices by the leading pastors, one such example was that terrible thing called the Toronto Blessing... and we all know it is not from above. Yes, I was saved through the message of salvation but only when I left the church and dug deeper did the Spirit reveal the Truth to me. From day one the Spirit was telling me to understand the whole Scriptures but the Church was teaching me to only focus on the last part. I had to leave, and backslide a little, to find the Truth. When I read the works of Yada or KP I try match it up with Scripture, usually this is associated with a sense of overwhelming peace. It is by their works that my understanding of and relationship with Yahweh has grown, and behind this all is the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

We all have a graving to know the Truth, behind the lies ("no need to keep the Law." "we have the anointing of the Holy Spirit by the acts of speaking tongues (gibberish)," "it's fine to eat pork and shellfish," "etc...") that have been taught to us. And in order to dig deeper this does require us to slice and dice Scripture, not removing or deleting it, but digging deeper into it.

I want to teach/tell/share with others the message of Salvation, but I'm in a stage of growth now and making solid my foundation first. Remember Paul in Galatians 1:11-24 who was out of sight for three years before coming out to share and join with Peter and company. He was already gifted in the Torah and did not require to be taught it, however I want to know more about the Law and this forum, and associated books, are helping me to learn it under the Renewed Covenant, something my previous pastors did not. We are called to be a Family, and these (you included) are my brothers and sisters.

I have to admit I had difficulty with POD, but only in that it was an exceptionally long read and I haven't finished it.

Offline Tiffany  
#13 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:35:58 AM(UTC)
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Good Morning Everyone,

So note that this subject is regarding the gender of sorts of the Set Apart Spirit. We can all look at the words and probably split hairs over our opinions but truth is still truth. Bringing up opinions of Yada Yahweh or Yada does not belong in this area so I would hope all would refrain and focus at the task at hand.

We have all had our fair share of lie and betrayals that have led us to the point we now find ourselves in, but thanks be to Yah for his foundations and truths that have been the same since time began.

Blessings
Tiffany
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#14 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2008 8:15:25 AM(UTC)
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Welcome Galatian :)

galatian35 wrote:
If that were the case the why do we even have the new Covenant, because the laws could not save us before Christ how could they save us now!!!!!


Just wondering, when did "the Law" ever save anyone anyway?
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Matthew  
#15 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:59:50 AM(UTC)
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Tiffany wrote:
So note that this subject is regarding the gender of sorts of the Set Apart Spirit. We can all look at the words and probably split hairs over our opinions but truth is still truth. Bringing up opinions of Yada Yahweh or Yada does not belong in this area so I would hope all would refrain and focus at the task at hand.

We have all had our fair share of lie and betrayals that have led us to the point we now find ourselves in, but thanks be to Yah for his foundations and truths that have been the same since time began.


Have to agree with Tiffany!

And to mention the reason I started this topic is because I've seen some people use 'He' and others using 'She' when referring to the Set Apart Spirit. I just wanted to clear it up for myself, and discuss the role of the Spirit in our lives and world. And to be certain of the correct use we need to dig through translation errors, we have to slice and dice in other words, to get to the truth of the matter.
Offline galatian35  
#16 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2008 5:45:12 PM(UTC)
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Sorry to get on a tangent however did the illustration of the masculinty of the Holy Spirit help identify who HE is?

My comment on the slicing and dicing, is more so spent on the actual aspect of spending an in ornate amount of time trying to understand the vast array of different scriptures out there, I am only encouaging those of you who have the relationship with the Holy Spirit to realize that he will guide your paths and lead you into understanding of the scripture no matter how right or wrong it was reproduced!

Before printing presses and the mass production of bibles how did a believer come to know the scritures?, By hearing the word and by accepting the Messiah as saviour, and last but not least by the guidance from the Holy Spirit.

I myself have had many seemingly carring people through out my walk with the Father offer their best understanding, and what I have learned the only thing I can count on is my personal relationship with the Holy Spirit and spend much time in prayer.

Enjoy the ride, don't forget to take as many as you can with you.

Bless yall
Offline bitnet  
#17 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:26:29 PM(UTC)
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Shalom All and Welcome Galatian35!

I read with interest Galatian35's statements and wonder, "Can error lead to Truth?" and "When shall we know Truth?" When experts claim that the bible is riddled with 300,000 errors how do you find Truth? True, we need the Spirit of Yahweh to determine Truth, no matter what we hear and read, for the things of Yahweh can only be know by the Spirit of Yahweh, just as the things of man can only be known by the spirit of man (and not animals).

If we do not read and dissect Yahweh's Word, and understand what every letter and word means, how can we catch the nuances that may be most important in our learning and understanding of whom our Messiyah is and why The Sacrifice was necessary? If I were to approach a pagan living in Italy in ancient Roman times (or even now) and said that a dead man crucified by the Roman army has come back to life and is God, and is willing to make you like him if you are willing to live and die like he did, you would think I am crazy! There is much that has to be explained, and we need words and time to do that, and Yahweh spent thousands of years to do just that, verbally and through Scripture.

We see many hundreds of millions of people now believing that they have the Holy Spirit, and many millions of them spend a lot of time in prayer. But is it right that they pray in error? That they do not really know the meaning of The Sacrifice and why and how they are "saved"? Saved from what? And for what? And does the Holy Spirit that they have guide them in the Ways of Yahushua so that they walk in step with our Father Yahweh? How would they know if they are not taught? And would they not be taught by Word, whether spoken or written? And who is to determine whether what is spoken or written is the Truth?

Much time has been spent on learning Scripture like the Bereans because "in them we find Life" and the more we learn the more we understand what our destiny and the fate of the world. We begin to understand things that have been lost and are now recovered and important. True we do not know how much is in store for us but we are getting glimpses through the Word. And this is much more than the rest of the world knows today. Should we feel proud? No, we feel humbled. All our understanding has only made each of us fully realise that we are truly sinners in need of Yahushua's Sacrifice.

Yada's and KP's writings are not the rantings of academics bent on glory. We read them because they have been gifted in making clear much of Scripture. But understanding Scripture is of little use if we do not do the things that we are asked to do.

For instance, it does not take much understanding to know that the Sabbaths belong to Yahweh and also identifies His followers, but is the world willing to keep the Sabbaths? Do Christians keep the Sabbaths or say, "Never mind, you know that I worship you, Heavenly Father, and that is all that matters. I must have the Holy Spirit or else I cannot confess that Jesus is God, so therefore I must be saved because You said so. And if I do not observe a few of the other things that You said to do it is because of the world's conditions today and I am unable to do so, but being a loving God you must understand and excuse my belligerence."

There is much for each of us to learn and experience as we grow. We fall every now and then, but we must stick to the narrow path. The good news is that since the path is narrow, He has offered to lighten the burden. Do we believe Him and do as asked or doubt Him still? If He identifies Himself as Yahushua, we know that that is true. If he identifies Himself as the Ruach Qodesh or Set-Apart Spirit, then that is true also. If Yahweh reveals the nature of the Set-Apart Spirit as masculine we would accept it also. But so far the words used have been feminine! And it fits with the nature of the Ruach Qodesh. Is it important to know whether male or female? Not really, but the exercise helps! It seems that there is neither male nor female in the spirit world, so male or female only helps us identify the nature of the Ruach Qodesh now, not the identity.

At this website, it is important for us to take the time to express some of our thoughts properly otherwise we risk walking in error or lead others into error. My personal concern here is that I stand to lose contact with true members of the Family who have been misdirected, thinking that whatever they are doing is acceptable.

We must also remember that this is not a numbers game! If it was a numbers game what chance do we have if Yahushua only had a dozen or so real followers while He was still alive? If it was a numbers game would not Yahushua have done a better job than us lowly sinners? And at the end of the first century when all the apostles and the thousands annointed at Pentecost had died, why were there only a few thousand faithful believers left scattered across the region? I submit to everyone here that we are not in the numbers game! We have been called to know and love Yahweh, and to teach others the same. We are called to spread the good news about the coming Kingdom of Yahweh. We shall work to bring back to the Family those who are scattered and lost. And we shall work on our imperfections while relying on His Grace and Love and Mercy to guide and guard us on this path, while humbly accepting the gift of The Sacrifice. This message we can convey to all without sophistication.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Mike_Browell  
#18 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:31:04 PM(UTC)
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Peace Everyone,
Unfortunately, just because someone desires salvation does not mean they receive it. one needs to truly seek truth in order to find it and it isn't to be found in religion. Also, during the Dark Ages of the Roman Catholic Church I am sure many who would have been saved were lost to destruction. And seeking truth does require what some people would require an "inordinate" amount of study (Which I fall far short of. I am no teacher). I pray that Father Yahweh will reveal the light of his Word to all. Ame'n.

Your Loving Brother,
Michael Browell
Offline Tiffany  
#19 Posted : Friday, January 25, 2008 6:02:19 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
There is much for each of us to learn and experience as we grow. We fall every now and then, but we must stick to the narrow path. The good news is that since the path is narrow, He has offered to lighten the burden. Do we believe Him and do as asked or doubt Him still? If He identifies Himself as Yahushua, we know that that is true. If he identifies Himself as the Ruach Qodesh or Set-Apart Spirit, then that is true also. If Yahweh reveals the nature of the Set-Apart Spirit as masculine we would accept it also. But so far the words used have been feminine! And it fits with the nature of the Ruach Qodesh. Is it important to know whether male or female? Not really, but the exercise helps! It seems that there is neither male nor female in the spirit world, so male or female only helps us identify the nature of the Ruach Qodesh now, not the identity.


Let’s keep it simple, Yah did not reveal to us that the Ruach Qodesh was male, the words and actions line up as female. The reasoning for this is to make it easier for us to identify with Yah because in our small brains we need that. I have never had more freedom then I do now because I understand more of the character of Yah, simply it was a relief to know there was a feminine portion of Yah that was just like me! I work everyday to be more like a child of Yah practicing and watching just a like any child does to mimic their parents.

Tiffany
Offline Mike_Browell  
#20 Posted : Friday, January 25, 2008 7:42:57 AM(UTC)
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Peace Everyone,
Tiffany great response I have to say. I pray to Yah that that comment is enlightening to those confused.

Your Loving Brother,
Michael Browell
Offline sugarman  
#21 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 10:08:28 AM(UTC)
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when scripture says He I do not think its trying to say God spirit haves a sex but its not a force like cults try to say but a real conviction spirit.

The greek gives alot of pro-nouns to The holy spirit to say its a person not a it or force.
Offline shalom82  
#22 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 12:47:07 PM(UTC)
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Actually I think we are talking about the Hebrew Sugarman. The greek does infact call the Spirit an it. The greek word for Ruach (pneuma) is gender neutral. Ruach the Hebrew word is however not gender neutral. It is referred to as a she.
The Ruach is not the 2nd person in a trinity...Simply she is the feminine manifestation of YHWH. All throughout Proverbs the Ruach Hakodesh is equated to Wisdom.

Pro 8:1 Does not wisdom call, And understanding lift up Her voice?
Pro 8:2 On the top of the heights along the way, Between the paths She has taken her stand.
Pro 8:3 Beside the gates, leading to the city, At the entrances, She shouts:
Pro 8:4 “O men, I call, to you, And my voice is to the sons of men.
Pro 8:5 “You simple ones, understand insight, And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
Pro 8:6 “Listen, for I speak noble words, And the opening of my lips is about straightness;
Pro 8:7 “For my mouth speaks truth; And wrongness is an abomination to my lips.
Pro 8:8 “All the words of my mouth are in righteousness, None of them twisted or crooked,
Pro 8:9 “All of them plain to him who understands, And straight to those who find knowledge.
Pro 8:10 “Accept my discipline, and not silver, And knowledge rather than choice gold;
Pro 8:11 “For wisdom is better than rubies, And all delights are not comparable to Her.
Pro 8:12 “I, wisdom, have dwelt with insight, And I find knowledge, foresight.
Pro 8:13 “The fear of יהוה is to hate evil. I have hated pride and arrogance, And the evil way, And the perverse mouth.
Pro 8:14 “Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom; I am understanding, mightiness is mine.
Pro 8:15 “By me sovereigns reign, And rulers make righteous decrees.
Pro 8:16 “By me princes rule, and nobles, All the judges of the earth.
Pro 8:17 “I love those who love me, And those who earnestly seek me do find me.
Pro 8:18 “Riches and esteem are with me, Enduring wealth and righteousness.
Pro 8:19 “My fruit is better than gold and fine gold, And my increase than choice silver.
Pro 8:20 “I walk in the way of righteousness, In the midst of the paths of right- ruling,
Pro 8:21 “To bestow substance on those who love me, And to fill their treasuries.
Pro 8:22 “יהוה possessed me, The beginning of His way, As the first of His works of old.
Pro 8:23 “I was set up ages ago, at the first, Before the earth ever was.
Pro 8:24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs heavy with water.
Pro 8:25 “Before mountains were sunk, Before the hills, I was brought forth,
Pro 8:26 “Before He had made the earth and the fields, Or the first dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 “When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He decreed a vault on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 “When He set the clouds above, When He made the fountains of the deep strong,
Pro 8:29 “When He gave to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He decreed the foundations of the earth,
Pro 8:30 “Then I was beside Him, a master workman, And I was His delight, day by day Rejoicing before Him all the time,
Pro 8:31 “Rejoicing in the world, His earth; And my delights were with the sons of men.
Pro 8:32 “And now, listen to me, you children, For blessed are they who guard my ways.
Pro 8:33 “Listen to discipline and become wise, And do not refuse it.
Pro 8:34 “Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors.
Pro 8:35 “For whoever finds me shall find life, And obtain favour from יהוה,
Pro 8:36 “But he who sins against me injures himself; All who hate me love death!”

A little aside from Genesis:
Gen 1:26 And Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the livestock, and over all the earth and over all the creeping creatures that creep on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 And Elohim created the man in His image, in the image of Elohim He created him – male and female He created them.


YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline sugarman  
#23 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 3:09:31 PM(UTC)
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Posts: 67

his is taken from my greek strong lexicon

he use or absence of the article in The original where the Holy spirit is spoken of cannot always be decided by grammatical rules. nor can the presence or absence of the article alone determine whether the reference is to the holy spirit. Examples where the PERSON is meant when the article is absent are matt 22:43 mark 12:36 acts 4:25 19:2,6 ; Rom 14:17 ; 1 cor 2:4 ; gal 5:25 twice 1 peter 1:2. Sometimes the absence is to be counted for by the fact that Pneuma like Theos is substantially a PROPER name , e.g. , in john 7:39. As a general rule the article is present where the subject of the teaching is PERSONALITY of the holy spirit, John 14:26. where HE is spoken of in DISTINCTION from the father and the son. See also 15:26 and cp. Luke 3:22.

IN gal. 3:3 in the phrase " having begun in the spirit," it is difficult to say whether the reference is to the holy spirit or to the quickened spirit of the believer ; that it possibly refers to the latter is not to be determine by the absence of the article. but by the contrast " the flesh ; " on other hand. the contrast may be between the holy spirit who is in the believer sets His seal on the perfect work of Christ, and the flesh which seeks to better itself by works of it own. There is no preposition before either Noun. and if the reference is to the quickened spirit it cannot be dissociated from the operation of the holy spirit. IN gal 4;29 the phrase " after the spirit signifies by supernatural power, ' in contrast to " after the flesh by natural power and the refrence must be to the holy spirit. 5:17

The full title with the article before both pneuma and hagios [ the "resumptive " use of the article ] lit., ' the spirit the holy,' stressed the CHARACTER of the PERSON, e.g., matt 12:32 mark 3;29 12:36 13:11; luke 2:26 10:21 (r.v.) john 14:26 acts 1:16 5:3 7:51 10:44,47 13:2 15:28 19:6 20:23 28; 21:11 28:25 eph 4:30 heb 3:7 9:8 10:15

The personality of the holy spirit is emphasized at the expense of strict grammatical procedure in john 14:26 15:26 16:8 13, 14. where the emphatic pronoun ekeinos , " HE, " is used of HIM in the masculine, whereas the noun pneuma is neuter in Greek, while the corresponding word in Aramaic, the language in which our Lord probably spoken in, is feminine ( rucha, cf. heb. Ruach ). the rendering " itself " in rom 8:16. 26. due to the greek gender, is corrected to " Himself " in the R.V.

The subject of the holy spirit in the NT may be consider as to His Divine attributes ; His distinct Personality in th Godhead ; His operation in connection with the lord jesus in his Birth, His life. his baptism , his death ; his operations in the world ; in the church ; His having been sent at pentcost by the father and by Christ ; His operations in the individual believer ; in local churches ; His operations in the production of holy scripture; His work in the word etc...


This is taken from my greek strong lexicon
Offline yeshuaslavejeff  
#24 Posted : Saturday, April 19, 2008 8:12:16 PM(UTC)
yeshuaslavejeff
Joined: 4/19/2008(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: israel

just passing by, but who knows? may be back...
...
smyrna site shows clearly the gender of the holy spirit.

..
http://miniurls.com/holyspirit

in part (need to read more at the site to see why/what 'gender' I guest) : ..... :)
Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.” (John 14:15-17) Jesus said very plainly that He would send another Comforter to comfort His people after His departure.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#25 Posted : Sunday, April 20, 2008 12:41:51 AM(UTC)
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Location: England

Welcome Jeff!

I think the person who wrote that site dosnt clearly show the gender, it feels a little muddled to me...

Hope to see you posting again!

- Rob
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline BiynaYahu  
#26 Posted : Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:36:04 PM(UTC)
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Blessing from on high everyone,

I don't understand the way these debates always go. YAHUWEH is not literally a man, he is an intelligent energy force. And the set-apart spirit is feminine in essence not in gender. YAHUWEH is one, and does not have split personality disorder. YAHUshua is his physical manifestation not a separate personality residing within YAHUWEH. He himself said, I can do only what I see my father doing, and that his words, and his fathers words were the same. So, in essence YAH moved him mouth and his hands. In the end regardless of what anyone says THE ATTRIBUTES of the spirit are feminine, and in being that in all literalness our beloved dad is an it, that makes the spirit feminine (not female). I hope father YAHUWEH our god will shine his light of truth, and to allow us all to see him clearly. Amein.

Your loving brother,
Mike Br.
Someone who does not dearly love or welcome, entertain, look fondly upon or cherish people with strong affection or highly esteem them with great favour, goodwill or benevolence, be loyal to or greatly adore them has not known or understood, perceived or realized, noticed or discerned, discovered or observed, experienced or ascertained, learned about or distinguished, comprehended, acknowledged or recognized God*, for concerning this, God* is and exists as brotherly love and affection, good will, esteem and benevolence.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#27 Posted : Tuesday, September 16, 2008 11:16:29 PM(UTC)
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BiynaYahu wrote:
Blessing from on high everyone,

I don't understand the way these debates always go. YAHUWEH is not literally a man, he is an intelligent energy force. And the set-apart spirit is feminine in essence not in gender. YAHUWEH is one, and does not have split personality disorder. YAHUshua is his physical manifestation not a separate personality residing within YAHUWEH. He himself said, I can do only what I see my father doing, and that his words, and his fathers words were the same. So, in essence YAH moved him mouth and his hands. In the end regardless of what anyone says THE ATTRIBUTES of the spirit are feminine, and in being that in all literalness our beloved dad is an it, that makes the spirit feminine (not female). I hope father YAHUWEH our god will shine his light of truth, and to allow us all to see him clearly. Amein.

Your loving brother,
Mike Br.



nail on head, bullseye and other sayings of accuracy.

The point is - WE are the picture of Him, He's not the picture of us. What I mean by that is male, female, child, family relationships describe in picture form something of the relationship and spiritual makeup of our Father.

Yahuweh isnt a guy, but He is our Father. The Spirit isnt a woman, but She is our mother. Yahushua WAS a man in the flesh, so He cant get out of it so easy ;) But Yahushua was, as Mike said, a diminished physical manifestation of Yah perfect for sacrifice, that also happened to show us how we should relate to our Father.

There isnt anything terrible or cryptic, its quite simple really. Yahuweh is our family, and He has those attibutes.
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Yahshuaslavejeff  
#28 Posted : Thursday, September 18, 2008 1:04:03 AM(UTC)
Yahshuaslavejeff
Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Israel / oklahoma

Robskiwarrior wrote:
Welcome Jeff!

I think the person who wrote that site dosnt clearly show the gender, it feels a little muddled to me...

Hope to see you posting again!

- Rob


the miniurl site got closed/bought and doesn't link anymore.
this is the direct link

It is clear, just totally unexpected by everyone raised in the world taught by men.
.
.
http://www.smyrna.org/Studies/Holy_Spirit.htm
.
.
p.s. holy is an adjective, never a name. fwiw This is even pointed out by e.w.bullinger and watchman nee.
Offline William  
#29 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 6:49:16 PM(UTC)
William
Joined: 8/8/2007(UTC)
Posts: 23
Location: Birmingham, AL

Wow. Now I know why I come back to these forums every now and then...it's incredible how you people seem to be so intelligent and yet you're so misguided to the point that I would call you a cult.

I see over and over in the various threads that the translations of the Bible are wrong, God-loving Christians are misguided and in possibly might not go to heaven, etc. This is EXACTLY how cults are run--the leaders say that everyone else is wrong and only that small group and it's leader(s) are correct and enlightened.

What I also see is that everyone quotes what Yada and KP have written...or other "experts" (i.e. experts have found over 300,000 errors in the Bible)--and there's not much Bible quoting here. Case in point: in this very thread, a question is posed and one of the members refers the questioner to the works of Yada and/or KP---they did NOT refer them to God's Word! So let me see...millions of Christians and highly trained pastors/theologians throughout history are wrong, but Yada and KP are right? Super-experts in Hebrew and Greek form huge committees in order to go back to the earliest known transcripts and translate the Bible are wrong...yet Yada and KP, who are not experts, give it a whirl and you believe them above everyone else? If I remember correctly, they do not even attend church anymore because the church is spewing lies. So they don't like the Bible and they don't like church...anyone sensing anything wrong here yet...? Give it a minute...okay, how about now?

If you read the Bible instead of other "works", you will see that it says that the Bible is the Holy Word of God, inspired by God, and is good for study and reproof. I believe that God has protected His Word throughout history so that we may know Him. If the Bible says it, I believe it. So I believe that the translations are correct! If God allowed His Word to be corrupted in even the smallest manner, then that "word" is good for nothing, cannot be trusted, and should not be followed--thus we have nothing available to us to point us to God and know Him fully. So don't try to tell me that the Bible translations are "wrong"--that is an opinion and NOT truth. God challenged man to put Him to the test vs man's gods. God said that only He can tell the future (prophecy)...and the Bible is about 1/3 prophecy and it's fulfillment. I see the prophecies of the end times being fulfilled every day in the news. The Bible has been 100% perfectly reliable and true...anyone who disagrees does not understand it correctly--and granted some things are very hard to understand.

As far as the original topic...the Bible refers to the Holy Spirit as a "He"...thus the Holy Spirit is a "He". Simple. Believe what the Bible says and not some man's opinion. Calling the Holy Spirit a "she" to me is blasphemous. The Bible warns you not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit as that sin is unforgivable. Calling the Holy Spirit a "she" is something that Satan would do in order to get you into a whole lotta trouble.

Am I reading this thread wrong or are you guys saying that the Holy Spirit is not part of the Trinity, but simply a "character" of God?? And that the Holy Spirit did not make Mary pregnant with Jesus--even though the Bible clearly states that He did??? At Jesus' baptism, Jesus was present...the Father spoke about being pleased with Jesus...and the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus...clearly an example of the three persons of God commonly known as the Trinity (although the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, the concept is). The Trinity is a mystery that we cannot understand until we are in heaven, but the Bible clearly shows the three separate persons of God many times over.

Wake up, smell the coffee, and read THE BIBLE for your life questions.

William
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#30 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 10:30:25 PM(UTC)
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Location: England

Quote:
This is EXACTLY how cults are run--the leaders say that everyone else is wrong and only that small group and it's leader(s) are correct and enlightened.


sounds like Christianity to me lol, just because they are not a small group doesn't mean they are not wrong.

No one on these forums would say they were 100% correct, even the illustrious leaders (yes that was sarcasm) Yada & Ken would say not to trust what they say and to do the digging yourself. And thats what we do here. We all hold slightly different views, that's for sure.

It seems you have no idea about who we are, which is a shame seems as though you like to fire off so quickly.

Quote:
The Trinity is a mystery that we cannot understand until we are in heaven...


Where does it say that in Scripture... oh yes that's right, it was your non-cultish leaders who keep pumping that answer into your head when the question is asked, along with many many other set responses. The irony is delicious.
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline shalom82  
#31 Posted : Saturday, May 30, 2009 1:53:01 AM(UTC)
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William,
There is plenty of use of scriptual rescources on this forum. If you had scrolled up about 4 posts on this thread you would have seen that...either you didn't or you choose to ignore it. We are constantly prodding and poking the workds of KP and Yada both publicly and in private correspondence. When there is a discrepancy....which I have brought up a few myself with the the writings in which give a backround and a reference point to this forum personally with Yada....as many of us have. The "letters" thread is devoted to that almost exclusively. When someone makes a valid point Yada is the last to be dogmatic and as long as you bring prrof or bring up lack there of he is happily ready to ammend and edit. Both of them state what is fact, what is an educated guess, and what is a shot in the dark. The greatest contribution that YY has made to most of us who have read it is that it gets us asking questions and digging deeper into the Word. The volumes written are by no means replacements for the scriptures. Being that this is the internet and you don't know us personally....and admit you only come here periodically (unless you are being untruthful) you have no idea how much time we spend with our noses in the scripture and relevent study recources. Just the other day we were looking for yachidy'el in the dead sea scrolls on one thread. But since you only come here once in a while...by your own admission you wouldn't know that. How many times have we exhorted each other to be Bereans on this forum and how many times do the authors do the same.
You come here and accuse of of being blasphemers...undisturbed by the facts (yes Ruach is feminine and is called she and her), tell us we are in a cult, are slavish thralls to the writers that have posted works on the YY site and say we don't read the the scriptures....why do you want to keep coming back? Do you come here for a good laugh or to make yourself feel superior? Yes, we have problems with Christianity....well founded problems with yet another religion of men. These are problems and inconsistancies that weren't brought up yesterday or exclusively by YY out of thin air. Some of the people you probably admire have brought up many of the concerns that we concern ourselves with. Augustine was mortified with Christian reverence of the sun in many respects. Bonhoeffer believed the law to still be in effect. Thoughout the history of Christianity...pockets of peoples have remained faithful to the Sabbath...even unto death. The puritans rejected Christmas as a pagan revelry that all to clearly exhibited it's true source and purpose. Have you ever heard of the word "Protestant"? Just what was it that they were protesting....oh that's right....Romish Christianity.
If you have such irreconcilable problems with us....so be it. We are not forcing you to suffer our beliefs and conclusions. It seems to me though that if you feel the need to keep coming back....the onus is on you.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#32 Posted : Saturday, May 30, 2009 11:24:13 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

You're amazing William. I see myself in you several months ago - totally blinded by christendom to the point where I was illogical. You probably study your King James faithfully. I used to cry over it thinking it was God's inerrant word. Boy was I duped.

Trust that it is all love here. Please be open-minded and study scripture very hard in its proper context going back and looking at hebrew and greek.
Offline bitnet  
#33 Posted : Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:27:42 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

SG, nice signature! I'm not into rap but your verses do sound catchy.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#34 Posted : Sunday, May 31, 2009 11:13:58 AM(UTC)
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Location: North Carolina

:) :) :) :) :)
Offline Matthew  
#35 Posted : Monday, June 1, 2009 12:23:03 PM(UTC)
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William wrote:
As far as the original topic...the Bible refers to the Holy Spirit as a "He"...thus the Holy Spirit is a "He". Simple. Believe what the Bible says and not some man's opinion. Calling the Holy Spirit a "she" to me is blasphemous. The Bible warns you not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit as that sin is unforgivable. Calling the Holy Spirit a "she" is something that Satan would do in order to get you into a whole lotta trouble.

Am I reading this thread wrong or are you guys saying that the Holy Spirit is not part of the Trinity, but simply a "character" of God?? And that the Holy Spirit did not make Mary pregnant with Jesus--even though the Bible clearly states that He did??? At Jesus' baptism, Jesus was present...the Father spoke about being pleased with Jesus...and the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus...clearly an example of the three persons of God commonly known as the Trinity (although the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, the concept is). The Trinity is a mystery that we cannot understand until we are in heaven, but the Bible clearly shows the three separate persons of God many times over.


As for the Trinity concept: "Rub-a-dub-dub, Thee men in a tub!" Quite a nasty picture, isn't it? Somewhat perverted and twisted if you think, could easily pass off as the works of Satan.

I prefer to know that God created us in the image of God, both male and female, which is all about family. So if we rule out Yahshua (child) as female as well as Yahweh (our Father), that leaves the Spirit, hence our Mother.

There are other passages in the Torah highlighting the nature of the Spirit if we look a little deeper. Consider the spiritual use of the word "mother" in "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk (Exodus 23:19, Exodus 34:26, Deuteronomy 14:21)," and in Deuteronomy 22:6 where it desribes the mother bird and her young. Ken does great work clarifying these passages in TOM.
Offline William  
#36 Posted : Tuesday, June 2, 2009 6:12:58 PM(UTC)
William
Joined: 8/8/2007(UTC)
Posts: 23
Location: Birmingham, AL

No, I'm not here to be the bad guy...and I only come here occasionally because, admittedly I forget to do so. I'm not here to be superior--I am anything but. But I do have concerns that I express in order to let both the faithful to this forum and the "newbies" have an alternate view. Granted, most of you agree with Yada and KP a lot--the reason why you're here. As I've said on other threads, I too agree with them on some things...but not on others. I agree that our holidays come from pagan ceremonies...I agree about the Sabbath...but I don't agree on the view of the Trinity here, I STRONGLY disagree with the "third door" option and think that I MUST speak out against that because souls are at stake...

On the Trinity, I gave a specific, clear example of Jesus' baptism and the three persons of God being there together in clearly separate roles...yet no one took the time to show me in this scenario where I am wrong...it's been like that in the past too. I believe that God is One in three persons...thus the mystery...our human brains cannot wrap our head around it.

Yes, I may use strong words to get my point across, but I back them up with very specific, very CLEAR Scriptures--Scriptures that you don't have to twist to get a point across. When people here tell me that I'm misguided they don't, for the most part, support that fact with the Bible. No body told me why I should trust Yada and KP's translations over the translations of entire scholarly committees made up of Hebrew and Greek experts. One person accused me of only reading the KJV...well, actually, I have one...but I prefer to read the NIV version for casual reading and the NASB for serious study. I disagree with the KJV-only crowd. Again, what made those particular translators any better than the other groups that translated later versions of the Bible? What version do YOU read? What is the "correct" version?

Here are basically my core beliefs: I believe that I am saved because I have asked Jesus to forgive me of my sins and become my Lord and Savior. I did this at about age 7 in Zaire, Africa (now the D. R. of Congo). I was baptized at age 10 in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I believe that my salvation is a gift from God and that I cannot do anything to earn it, thus I cannot lose it by anything that I do either. I am no longer under the law, but saved by grace--although this is clearly NOT an excuse to sin or live an unholy life. I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit--tongues, miracles, the whole bit--because He did it before and God said that He never changes. I believe that man has ruined and complicated the gospel through "religion". You don't have to be a member of a certain denomination--you have to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that He has protected it throughout history so that it is STILL His inspired Word that we can count on--and that there are ZERO errors in the Bible. What church do I go to? Whichever one teaches the whole Word of God and doesn't pull punches--no "good feeling" type churches. So I am just as comfortable in a Baptist church as I am in the Church of God. Yes, I disagree with some of their stuff--it HAS to be in the Bible for me to believe in it. So, am I wrong?? Am I going to hell?

I am sorry that I do come off as "the bad guy" on these forums...but I just feel that some of you truly believe in what Yada and KP say on things...and that others are "drawn in" and may be afraid to speak up. It is for those people that I am here...to show that Christianity, TRUE Christianity, is NOT wrong. To make them think before they believe. I simply cannot follow a couple of guys who say that they no longer attend church because they cannot find ONE in all the world that is true...that say the Bible translations are wrong and should not be followed. Think about it--that means ONE person out of all history is correct (Yada) and then he got a follower (KP)...and then the group slowly grew. Basically you are trusting ONE man over MILLIONS of Biblically educated Christians and Jews throughout all of history. Don't you think AT ALL that this is odd and MAY be wrong??? Doesn't this ring a bell of Jim Jones or David Koresh--they too believed in their leaders and the leaders' interpretations of the Bible.

Hit me with Scripture and CLEAR examples of Biblical teachings. I refuse to debate anything other than the Bible...YY or otherwise. If you cannot answer my challenges, then don't bother telling me I'm "wrong" or "bad". I don't want to hear Yada's or KP's beliefs or what's in their books. I want you to answer me with CLEAR (as in don't twist it) Bible references. Maybe you can start with Jesus' baptism and the presence of all three persons of God being present--or tell me where Jesus, the apostles, or any prophet talks plainly and often about a third option after death.

William
Offline bitnet  
#37 Posted : Wednesday, June 3, 2009 5:51:13 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

The odd thing is that everything is already written down and all the answers that William seeks are already presented in the books, complete with all the Scriptural logic and references! Rather than having us re-write everything in bits and pieces in this forum, it would behoove William to read and think over each of the chapters discussed instead of trying to knock down everything else that he deems unworthy. Whilst claiming to be on the same page with us where the Sabbath is concerned, he believes in glossolalia and the "once-saved-always-saved" doctrine and claims that he cannot lose salvation just because he got it freely by grace. And yet Scripture clearly warns against these two doctrines! And if he still wants us to explain why in this forum, I'd again suggest for William to read the YY books as the answers are all there.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline James  
#38 Posted : Wednesday, June 3, 2009 6:40:14 AM(UTC)
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William wrote:
I am sorry that I do come off as "the bad guy" on these forums...but I just feel that some of you truly believe in what Yada and KP say on things...and that others are "drawn in" and may be afraid to speak up. It is for those people that I am here...to show that Christianity, TRUE Christianity, is NOT wrong. To make them think before they believe. I simply cannot follow a couple of guys who say that they no longer attend church because they cannot find ONE in all the world that is true...that say the Bible translations are wrong and should not be followed. Think about it--that means ONE person out of all history is correct (Yada) and then he got a follower (KP)...and then the group slowly grew. Basically you are trusting ONE man over MILLIONS of Biblically educated Christians and Jews throughout all of history. Don't you think AT ALL that this is odd and MAY be wrong??? Doesn't this ring a bell of Jim Jones or David Koresh--they too believed in their leaders and the leaders' interpretations of the Bible.

Hit me with Scripture and CLEAR examples of Biblical teachings. I refuse to debate anything other than the Bible...YY or otherwise. If you cannot answer my challenges, then don't bother telling me I'm "wrong" or "bad". I don't want to hear Yada's or KP's beliefs or what's in their books. I want you to answer me with CLEAR (as in don't twist it) Bible references. Maybe you can start with Jesus' baptism and the presence of all three persons of God being present--or tell me where Jesus, the apostles, or any prophet talks plainly and often about a third option after death.

William

I can't speak for everyone here, but I for one, dis not just accept Yada's translation of scripture, I have taken the time to check his translations, using the best tools I have access to, and have found his translations to be more in depth and accurate than any of the English translations available. And no one here believes that he is the only one in all of history to get it right.

I believe that Yahweh's word is true and eternal, but translations are strictly man made affairs. If you take the time to study the history of English translations you will learn that they should not be trusted 100%. Read about the history of the Textus Recepticus, read about the comparisons between the Masoretic and the Dead Sea Scrolls, look at who was behind the translations. The translations were done in such a way to confirm the beliefs of the "church" at the time they where done. Particularly the KJV, and the NIV, ASB, NASB and other English translations are mostly revisions of the KJVs wording to make it easier for people to understand in modern English. For example why does every translater continue to use the same sources for there translations, mostly 4th and 5th century documents, rather than the 1st 2nd and 3rd century manuscripts that we have, why do they continue to use the Masoretic rather than the much older Dead Sea Scrolls?

I for one don't see you as "the bad" person in the forum, in fact I welcome you, and see you as I see everyone here, as seeking knowledge. But as Bitnet has pointed out the answer to your questions, have been answered in the books, and re writing it all here would be a waste of server space when you can read the books, and see the arguments that have persuaded us. If you choose to see the translations as "twisting" scripture, then that is your option, having checked and confirmed many of the translations, I see the English translations, as twisting and out right altering of scripture.

I am a person who views logic and reason as my strongest guide. The reasoned arguments in YY, which based on my study of the Scriptures have lead me to the conclusions I have.

I for one, do not think you are going to Hell for your beliefs, I think you are seeking Yahweh, and on the same journey as all of us, I wish you luck on your journey, and if either of us are errant in our understanding, I pray that Yahweh will help us and guide us to him.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline kp  
#39 Posted : Wednesday, June 3, 2009 11:32:30 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

William, if you knew how often I disagree with Yada (about little things) you'd blush to call me his "follower." I love the man and value his insight, but I'm far from being in lock step with his doctrine or interpretation---and he respects that, as long as I've done my homework. A glaring example is your insistence that "True Christianity" is not wrong. I agree with you, but the real point of contention is not the fact of the matter, but the symantics. Yada looks at the religion of Christianity, including all of the groups that claim the title, from Catholics and Orthodox splinter groups, to apostate Protestants to Mormons, to JWs to...well, you get the idea. And he notes (quite rightly) that there's something systemically wrong here. If you get it down to statistics, I'm sure you'd agree that as a percentage, what you'd label "true Christians" are a very very small part of the "religion" as a whole. Then he goes one step further (and this is where we disagree a bit) and says that "Christ" is not a legitimate word---that it's not a proper translation of "anointed one," never mind what the lexicons say, because the root from which it is derived (not the actual word Christos, but its root, chrisos) can mean "drugged" or "whitewashed." I remain unconvinced. Adding to the controversy is that "Christos" is a nomina sacra in all the pre-Constantinian manuscripts---it isn't actually spelled out. Unlike Yada, I'm prepared to accept Christos at face value, and therefore don't have a problem calling real followers of Yahshua "Christians." But as I said, our differences are on fine points, nuances of symantic usage---not about fundamental doctrines. We each reserve the right to think for ourselves and listen to what the Holy Spirit (another designation Yada hates because "holy" is so often a misapplied and misunderstood word---which it is) tells us.

By the way, I attend a regular Bible (Yada hates that word, too---pagan roots) believing church (another symantic nightmare) at least twice a week, and teach home Bible studies as well, so please don't tell me I "no longer attend." As with everything else, you need to get your facts straight. The people I fellowship with don't know everything. Nor do I. But they love Yahweh and are eager to learn (unlike the fast preponderance of the religion of Christianity). That's good enough for me.

kp
Offline Prophet speaks  
#40 Posted : Wednesday, June 3, 2009 4:06:16 PM(UTC)
Prophet speaks
Joined: 3/25/2009(UTC)
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Location: Dallas, tx

William………..a few comments to you -

When I first came on here I had a similar attitude as yourself. You are coming on here without doing any homework and accusing folks by judging a few comments on a topic or two and not looking at these folks works as a whole. And you are making a BIG assumption that YOUR version of the Bible is the correct one and these folks are false based on what YOU have been conditioned to believe. And I say conditioned because your comments wreak of religious dogma and not bible scripture. And I will be happy to point out your dogmatic ways if you need me to.

And yes…I believe that 98% percent of ALL religious leaders and religions are dead wrong at the detriment to their followers and I would much rather read an honest comment from KP or Yada any day. I do not agree with KP on a few points which I intend to discuss with him coming up. However, I just read ALL of his his 500 pg. analysis of the Mosaic Laws and I must say for anyone to even attempt what he did there gets my kudos just for the effort. Do I agree with his commentary on each one? No. But I would say about 90% I can go for and that is pretty darn good. And when I look at what the Catholic church says I can relate to about 15%. And when I look at other religions it is lower than that.

So, I suggest you take a step back and realize you have become what you despise and that even YOUR take, as you described it, is holy in a non-Holy way (as in full of holes).

HOWEVER, after saying all this…I agree with you and have to disagree with KP on the understanding of the holy Spirit being feminine. And NOT because it is called a “He” either. But to explain my position takes a long time and I am not ready today, but maybe tomorrow.

I am NOT a Trinitarian. And what I call a Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the spiritual aspect of the Father. But here is one hint...even though He is called the Father it is from HIM that male and female is created - not because of a Holy Spirit. And what is the Holy Spirit anyway? And yes, why was it there when Yashua was Baptized? And if there is a Holy Spirit has there ever been unholy spirits? And what is a Spirit??? And who controls this spirit? Does it ever make up its own mind or send itself? And how does Elohim communicate to us?

:)

See this gets deep. So lets hash it out if you care to. And again, I will show you how your King James bible added words to make people like you think there is a Trinity as in Matthew 28 and 1John 5:7. And yes they ADDED words just as they changed words such as the word Passover to Easter in Acts 12:4. So is that okay William? Easter? You like Easter William?

Well, I am rambling. Out for now.

Prophet

PS – Hello Bitnet. Hello KP. As I said kudos to you after reading your Mosaic Law analysis. I have 3 things to discuss with you on this – one being this “female” Holy Spirit idea. I’ll be back. And this time around I am rested and relaxed and am ready for some good debate – even with Swalchy.
Offline William  
#41 Posted : Wednesday, June 3, 2009 4:07:36 PM(UTC)
William
Joined: 8/8/2007(UTC)
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Location: Birmingham, AL

My apologies to you KP...I did speak without knowing. Guess I stuck my foot in my mouth concerning you...I apologize profusely. I just see everyone referring to the books instead of the Bible all the time and it frustrates me.

So...in fairness to you all, I will re-read YY in an earnest study--and will have many questions and challenges for you all. But there were references to posters having studied the facts for themselves...so where do I check the "facts" and translations? Where do I have documentation to either prove Yada right or prove Yada wrong? I do not wish to take anything at face value--especially when it challenges the Bible.

William
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#42 Posted : Thursday, June 4, 2009 2:22:23 AM(UTC)
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William wrote:
My apologies to you KP...I did speak without knowing. Guess I stuck my foot in my mouth concerning you...I apologize profusely. I just see everyone referring to the books instead of the Bible all the time and it frustrates me.

So...in fairness to you all, I will re-read YY in an earnest study--and will have many questions and challenges for you all. But there were references to posters having studied the facts for themselves...so where do I check the "facts" and translations? Where do I have documentation to either prove Yada right or prove Yada wrong? I do not wish to take anything at face value--especially when it challenges the Bible.

William



Thats the money william :D Go in there full force and rip the work apart :D Thats what its there for, and thats what we try and do... The more people digging the better! :)

Hey PS! :)
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline kp  
#43 Posted : Thursday, June 4, 2009 4:17:25 AM(UTC)
kp
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Back on topic... I'd say that it would be just as erroneous to think of the Ruach Qodesh as a "woman" as it is to think of Father Yahweh as a "man." But something's going on here. It is an undeniable fact that ruach is a feminine Hebrew noun. And going on my foundational premise that "God doesn't make stupid mistakes," it is incumbent upon us to figure out what He's trying to tell us.

I think we're thinking about this backward: any tendencies and strengths attributable to the sexes are a reflection of the way God made us, and not conversely---His attributes are not a reflection of ours. So Yahweh, who is One, has manifested "Himself" in both masculine and feminine roles in order to help us understand His nature. And "He" created us male and female so we might comprehend what the difference is. Some of us can't easily understand what's going on because we grew up in dysfunctional households. I, happily, did not---my father and mother created a "normal" home (note that I didn't say "average") in which traditional gender roles were assumed and fulfilled---much as they had been for much of the human race since the dawn of time. My father was the acknowledged authority in the home, though he and mom were never (that I could see) out of sync. He was the basic provider, though mom helped and contributed, and she was the conduit through which whatever dad brought home came into the lives of my brothers and me. Mom, in contrast, was the comforter, the consoler, the nurturer, the one who confronted me with my shortcomings. She helped with the homework. And she was the one who administered the spankings when they were necessary. Mom felt the pain when I was born, and she felt it again whenever I let dad down. She was, in short, into our lives in a very personal, intimate, hands-on way. Dad was there, but she was THERE, if you know what I mean. As far as I was concerned, they weren't really two separate people---they were the "corporation" that produced our family. They remained married and devoted for 52 years, and though he seemed to be in perfect health, dad only outlived mom by a year or two. I can't really think of one of my parents without thinking of the other.

That, in a way, is how I think Yahweh wants us to conceive of "Him"---not as our Father, but as our Parents. "He" does both masculine and feminine things. But Yahweh isn't really "male," nor is His Spirit "female." These are merely teaching devices "He" has built into our world to teach us about His own nature. It's an eye-opener, however, to realize that Yahweh's human manifestation, the Son, Yahshua, actually is masculine---He extends and projects the authority of the "Father."

kp
Offline edStueart  
#44 Posted : Thursday, June 4, 2009 4:30:22 AM(UTC)
edStueart
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kp wrote:
Back on topic...


There he goes again...
;-)

kp wrote:
I'd say that it would be just as erroneous to think of the Ruach Qodesh as a "woman" as it is to think of Father Yahweh as a "man." But something's going on here. It is an undeniable fact that ruach is a feminine Hebrew noun. And going on my foundational premise that "God doesn't make stupid mistakes," it is incumbent upon us to figure out what He's trying to tell us.


Leonard Nimoy (yes, THAT Leonard Nimoy) has been doing some investigation into what he calls the "feminine nature of G-d". From what little I have been able to glean from the popular press, is that he is not saying that the "feminine nature" is all that there is of YHWH, but that is a part of God's nature. Has anyone here heard anymore about what he has to say?

Live long and prosper.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline James  
#45 Posted : Thursday, June 4, 2009 5:53:38 AM(UTC)
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William wrote:
I just see everyone referring to the books instead of the Bible all the time and it frustrates me.

William, the main reason we reference the books like Yada Yahweh, and The Owners Manual, so much, is not because we hold them higher than Scripture, it is because they cite the Scriptures, but also the history, and a reasoned and logical argument that we feel is persuasive, and trying to sum up a 5 to 10 page explanation in a few lines on the forum is inadequate, and tiresome. Instead we site the books, so that someone can go read that section, and read that argument, and then if they have specific challenges, we can address that. Ken and Yada have a great way of explaining things, much much better than myself.

William wrote:
So...in fairness to you all, I will re-read YY in an earnest study--and will have many questions and challenges for you all.

Please do, a lot of what this forum is about is when something in YY doesn't make sense we hash it out, and try to make sense of it. Not everyone always comes to the same conclusions as Yada, but we try to clarify what each believe, and why, and then people are free to believe what they want.

William wrote:
But there were references to posters having studied the facts for themselves...so where do I check the "facts" and translations? Where do I have documentation to either prove Yada right or prove Yada wrong? I do not wish to take anything at face value--especially when it challenges the Bible.

Many of the tools used for the translations in YY are listed in the opening chapter, that is a good place to start. The Dead Sea Scrolls can be found at any bookstore, translations of course. You can find many textual criticisms comparing the DSS to the Masoretic. Also researching the history of the Masorites is interesting. Probably the best way to go is to get the Logos Original Languages software, but it is a bit expensive. The Text of the Oldest Greek New Testament Manuscripts is about $70 and combine that with a good Greek to English Dictionary, and a Greek/English Interlinear. Swalchy has a great site www.thewaytoyahuweh.com where he has been working on his own amplified translation of Scripture. As well there is a whole section on the forum, where people have shared resources that they use.

I started my studying largely with taking a KJV and a Strong's Concordance and just amplified that, and found a great deal of insight that is not conveyed in the plain translation. That was really just scratching the surface of how inadequate English translations are.

Keep in mind when language is really just a tool to convey a message, so if the translator has an agenda, they can read into it there own views, and then that is what gets translated, there understanding of the message. That is one of the things I really like with Yada's translations, is that he gives the Hebrew word, and the full definition, then when there are multiple possible translations he lists them, explains why he used the one he did, and why he did not use the others. Often times there are many possible translations, and all are accurate, and convey much that is lost in simple English translations.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Prophet speaks  
#46 Posted : Thursday, June 4, 2009 9:06:21 AM(UTC)
Prophet speaks
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edStueart – Leonard Nimoy to me is a practicing Kabbalist. His Vulcan “V” symbol is Kabbalah ritual right in front of your eyes. So anything he says I will take as coming from a mystical Satanic spin.

KP – I hear you loud and clear. I guess one area I differ from you is that you are a Trinity believer – correct? And if that is so then it seems simple to try to assign this role to the Holy Spirit of being feminine in nature. If the Son is masculine then the Holy Spirit by default is feminine. And to add fuel to this argument the Hebrew noun is feminine. And also I understand the nexus people use in reciting Proverb 8 (“wisdom – she”). So when you add all this up it can circumstantially point to the Holy Spirit being feminine. Also from what I have been told this argument is also Kabbalistic in nature even though I do not in depth know what the Kabbalah says about the Holy Spirit exactly.

I have learned that the nature of the Father is male and female. Why “He” is called the Father per se I do not know. But all the energy, power, etc that was used by the Son to create our world is of the Father – male and female. It is channeled out through the hand of the Son and looked over by the Holy Spirit. This is my dynamic and explains Gen 1:26 in making “mankind” in their image – both male and female.

But then what is the Holy Spirit? I have never heard any Christian explain it to me. They use terms such as: “The essence of the Father”, “The will or breath of the Father”. They suggest that it is something that we are “tethered to” as if we get attached into a web of energy such as a spider web of sorts. They also suggest that God puts this tentacle of energy right into our hearts.

To me this description falls very short and does not make sense. If I was tethered into God’s (when I say God I mean the Godhead of 2) energy I feel I would be a hybrid man. I would never sin. I would be perfect since God himself is inside me. But I know I have free will to sin. And I know that I can turn away from the truth of what I know if I should desire it. I am a free soul. Therefore I do not believe God is inside me per se.

So, where is God and what is this Holy Spirit? Let me ask this: “Are there evil spirits? What would you folks say is an evil spirit?” Most Christians I ask this question to tell me that evil spirits are the fallen evil angels that fell with Lucifer. An evil demon to them is the same as an evil spirit or fallen angel. If this is true then if there are evil spirits why can’t there be Holy Spirits? Holy Angels. Angels that cannot fall. They have God’s “name” in them (power/authority). They cannot fall and do not have free will. They are an elect group of angels such as the President has his secret service that does his will.

Why does God need this type of angel? When he sends you this angel this angel becomes your guardian angel. He sits on your shoulder. He is competing with that evil angel that sits on your other shoulder trying to tempt you into sin. The Holy Angel talks to you and says, “No, no, don’t cheat on your wife”. That evil angel says, “Go ahead – no one will know”. This is a conversation you are having in your conscience mind about whether to sin or not. When you know right from wrong, and you chose wrong, THAT IS THE SIN OF SINNING AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT, which is basically not listening to your gut feel, your inner conscience, which is where you know right from wrong, and where the Holy Spirit talks to you as a messenger of God (the Son and Father). The true unforgivable sin is to not do what you know to do – or to do what you know not to do.

This thought gives us a picture as thus…you have the Godhead of the Father and Son giving directions through Holy Angels directly to the ones he truly is caring about and has picked. He has set up the original internet you might say. In real time he can send a message to you via the protocol of him to angel to you. And you pray from you through angel back to him. That is the system. Now lets keep this in mind as we look at scripture.

Who sends the Holy Spirit? If the Holy Spirit is equal to the Father and Son why does it take orders from them? For example:

Joh 14:26 However, the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything…

Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father,…

Heb 2:4 (LITV) God bearing witness with them by both miraculous signs and wonders, and by various works of power, even by distribution of the Holy Spirit, according to His will.

2Pe 1:21 No prophecy ever originated from humans. Instead, it was given by the Holy Spirit as humans spoke under God's direction.

Now if what I am alleging is true then it makes sense that God (the Godhead of the Son and Father = God) is controlling these Holy Spirits under his direction. They are awaiting his command and they only do what He says. To me that does not sound like they have equal status with God.

What is a spirit? We see the terms Ghost and Spirit as basically interchangeable terms. I feel another appropriate term is angel or messenger. The term could be Holy Angel or Holy Messenger. I cite these verses:

Psa 103:20 Bless Jehovah, O angels of His; mighty in strength; doing His Word; listening to the voice of His Word.

Psa 104:4 He makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flaming fire.

What was the reason for the Holy Spirit being present at Jesus’ baptism? To me it is simple. We are told in John 5:37 that no one has ever heard the Father’s voice or seen his shape. At the Baptism Jesus’ is on the ground a mortal man and then we are told that we can see the shape of the Holy Spirit – as a dove – and then a voice sounds. We then hear the message from the Father… You are My Son, the Beloved; in You I have been delighting. (LITV). Who spoke those words? It had to be the Holy Spirit. The Father has never spoke to anyone. The angel did the sound.

There are many other times angels spoke for the Father or Son. Who gave the commandments to Moses? An angel did (see Exodus 3:2 and Acts 7:53 and Hebrews 2). Who gave the Revelation to John? An angel did. It is angels that God uses as his messengers.

I can go on and on as to how the Godhead uses angels. I have just started the tip of the iceberg. And the point is this…Holy Spirits are Holy Angels. They are not Gods or Elohims. They do not do anything of their own accord. They are gender neuter or “its” if you will. They do not mate with humans (and neither do evil fallen angels).

By presenting this argument in this fashion I believe I have reasoned that the feminine energy of the Father has nothing to do with Holy Spirits. They are simply messengers. And one last thing…the concept of a Trinity is Occultic in its nature. This concept was never talked about by the Jews and the Trinity did not suddenly pop into existence because a few men in 325 AD said it to be. These men were sun and devil worshippers and totally hijacked the intent and nature of God’s word and instructions to us by formulating Religion. And from religion we get the Trinity – not from the Bible. They even changed the words in the King James bible to reflect this falsehood (See 1john 5:27).

God does not have 3 versions. It is a Father and a Son – 2 united as One. I await the comments.
Offline kp  
#47 Posted : Thursday, June 4, 2009 10:05:00 AM(UTC)
kp
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Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Quote:
God does not have 3 versions. It is a Father and a Son – 2 united as One.


Yes and no, Prophet Speaks. I agree: God does not have "three versions." But to limit God to a Father and Son united as One is to greatly oversimplify His revealed nature, to my mind. No, I'm not a "trinity believer," although I used to be, before I challenged my traditional upbringing. My current understanding is this: Yahweh is One. Period. He is "holy," that is, He is unique, set apart from His creation. There are no other Gods beside Him. However, He does choose to manifest or reveal Himself in the corporate experience of the object of His affections, mankind. Not two other ways (together making a trinity) but six: making Himself a living example of his recurring six-plus-one pattern of redemption and reconciliation. What would you call that? A Septinity?

What are the six ways Yahweh manifests Himself (or has done so, or will) among men? Here's my working list. Its a subject I plan to address in detail in my new book, The Torah Code (coming to a server near you sometime in the next decade :-)

1. The Son, Yahshua of Nazareth---the anointed one, the Messiah, fully human though fully God.
2. The Holy Spirit---Yahweh's creative, nurturing entity, dwelling since the Feast of Weeks 33 AD within Yahweh's called-out assembly.
3. The Shekinah---pure light, a localized (and greatly diminished) manifestation of Yahweh's glory (seen in the burning bush, the pillar of fire and smoke, the cloud-like entity "dwelling" in the most holy place, etc.
4. The "Angel (messenger) of Yahweh---human non-messianic manifestations, theophanies: God in Eden, Abraham's dinner guest, etc.
5. The risen, glorified Messiah---clearly a different sort of being than the Yahshua who lived and died in the first century.
6. Non-humanoid symbolic manifestations---such as those witnessed in Ezekiel 1 or Revelation 4.

Clearly, the Son and Holy Spirit manifestations are the ones that touch our lives most on a daily basis. But as far as I can tell, all of these are bona fide revelations of Yahweh's nature in the collective human experience---and none of them are apart from (or other than) Yahweh. For Yahweh is One.

kp
Offline James  
#48 Posted : Thursday, June 4, 2009 11:18:28 AM(UTC)
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Prophet speaks wrote:
But then what is the Holy Spirit? I have never heard any Christian explain it to me. They use terms such as: “The essence of the Father”, “The will or breath of the Father”. They suggest that it is something that we are “tethered to” as if we get attached into a web of energy such as a spider web of sorts. They also suggest that God puts this tentacle of energy right into our hearts.

To me this description falls very short and does not make sense. If I was tethered into God’s (when I say God I mean the Godhead of 2) energy I feel I would be a hybrid man. I would never sin. I would be perfect since God himself is inside me. But I know I have free will to sin. And I know that I can turn away from the truth of what I know if I should desire it. I am a free soul. Therefore I do not believe God is inside me per se.

So, where is God and what is this Holy Spirit? Let me ask this: “Are there evil spirits? What would you folks say is an evil spirit?” Most Christians I ask this question to tell me that evil spirits are the fallen evil angels that fell with Lucifer. An evil demon to them is the same as an evil spirit or fallen angel. If this is true then if there are evil spirits why can’t there be Holy Spirits? Holy Angels. Angels that cannot fall. They have God’s “name” in them (power/authority). They cannot fall and do not have free will. They are an elect group of angels such as the President has his secret service that does his will.

Why does God need this type of angel? When he sends you this angel this angel becomes your guardian angel. He sits on your shoulder. He is competing with that evil angel that sits on your other shoulder trying to tempt you into sin. The Holy Angel talks to you and says, “No, no, don’t cheat on your wife”. That evil angel says, “Go ahead – no one will know”. This is a conversation you are having in your conscience mind about whether to sin or not. When you know right from wrong, and you chose wrong, THAT IS THE SIN OF SINNING AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT, which is basically not listening to your gut feel, your inner conscience, which is where you know right from wrong, and where the Holy Spirit talks to you as a messenger of God (the Son and Father). The true unforgivable sin is to not do what you know to do – or to do what you know not to do.

I think you have an interesting take on the Spirit PS, I've never really seen it explained that way, and I can see your reasoning. If like you say though "The true unforgivable sin is to not do what you know to do – or to do what you know not to do." then I can't think of a single person who would be forgiven, everyone I know myself included has done something they knew at the time was wrong.

I sort of agree with you on the idea of the Spirit being the the one telling you not to do what is wrong. I see it as Yahweh's spirit that dwells within us, and is our counselor, so in that way the spirit is the one counseling us against doing that which is wrong, but I tend to view the part of us saying yeah do it as our nature more so then an evil spirit.
As far as the original topic of this thread, is the spirit masculine or feminine, I think we can all differ on this, personally the idea and reasoning behind the spirit being feminine made complete sense to me, and made me look at things in a whole new perspective, and I feel gave me a deeper understanding of my creator. I might be wrong, I might be right. We can ask our father one day and see what he says.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline James  
#49 Posted : Thursday, June 4, 2009 11:24:38 AM(UTC)
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On the trinity issue, I don't believe in the christian trinity, of three gods in one, makes no sense to me. I think the idea that there is one God, Yahweh, who has separated a portion of himself from the whole and set it apart from the whole, for a particular purpose. He set aside one part and had it take flesh and tabernacle with us as the messiah, that part has since rejoined with the whole, and another part has been separated, and sent to dwell with in us for a time, it has cleansed us, and made us so we may be with our father.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline Prophet speaks  
#50 Posted : Thursday, June 4, 2009 1:00:48 PM(UTC)
Prophet speaks
Joined: 3/25/2009(UTC)
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KP...

“The Torah Code?” I can’t wait to read it. And again thanks for that Mosaic Law analysis.

Okay – lets see. A six in one entity? Wow. I want to give you some of my thoughts on your six.

1. The Son, Yahshua of Nazareth---the anointed one, the Messiah, fully human though fully God.

Did Yahweh manifest himself as the Jehovah Witnesses claim by “making” or “creating” Yashua sometime in the beginning? In my understanding Yashua is eternal. There was never a time when the Father did not have a Son. The Son was never created. Is the son a part of the Father? Of course – the same material, but possibly having a different “job description” you might say. Is the Son an extension of the Father? In a way – yes. But is the Son a different entity altogether? I tend to think Yes. The Son is a separate being. The Son has not been manifested. So, I cannot say that the son is the Father in a different “mode” or “perspective” since the Son is his own self. Independent, but united.

2. The Holy Spirit---Yahweh's creative, nurturing entity, dwelling since the Feast of Weeks 33 AD within Yahweh's called-out assembly.

Are you implying here that before that event you are referencing there was no Holy Spirit dwelling with man? Are you saying it is new since Yashua ascended? If my assertion is accurate that the Holy Spirit is simply Holy Angels then as Robskiwarrior said what was happening before Yashua walked the earth? Was there no Holy Spirit then? Can I believe that Abraham was led by a Holy Spirit? He must have been. And what about David? He knew who Yashua is and he MUST have been led by the Holy Spirit. Here are some verses that mention a Holy Spirit from the OT…

Psa 51:11 Do not cast me out from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and provoked His Holy Spirit, so He was turned to be their enemy; He fought against them.

Also in the OT I believe the term “the spirit of the Lord” or “angel of the Lord” is the same thing as a Hoy Spirit/Angel. It is not of my opinion his spirit is his “thought” spirit. It is a messenger spirit. For example…

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;
Gen 1:2 and the earth being without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moving gently on the face of the waters,…

To me the Spirit of God in Gen 1:2 is a Holy Spirit angel. Not the thought of God per se flying over water.

3. The Shekinah---pure light, a localized (and greatly diminished) manifestation of Yahweh's glory (seen in the burning bush, the pillar of fire and smoke, the cloud-like entity "dwelling" in the most holy place, etc.

Here is where it gets deep. What was in that burning bush? Most folks say God himself. I say which God? Some will say the Father and some may say Yashua. I say neither. It was an angel again. Yes, an angel. God uses angels more than we realize (in my understanding). Lets look at Exodus…

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

It is pretty clear here. An angel appeared. Not just any angel, but an angel of the Lord and to me that is basically a Holy Spirit. Why would he mention this? And then what happened…

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Why would it be said that the angel appeared in the MIDST of the bush, and then it tells us God called out unto him from the MIDST of the bush? Because it is the angel doing the talking. I don’t feel Yashua EVER came to earth before he was “begotten”. Yet there are many folk that believe he has an escalator so to speak up and back from heaven to the earth. The Mosaic Law was given to Moses by angels, not by God himself. The angels are God’s communication protocol – whether into our minds or out loud audibly. Here are some verses that back up what I am suggesting…

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was confirmed, and every transgression and disobedience received a just repayment;

Act 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

Act 7:53 who received the Law by the disposition of angels and did not keep it.

Gal 3:19 In fact, angels gave the Law to Moses, and he gave it to the people.

So, even though it was God speaking out of the bush it was angels standing there as the “speaker system”. And this exact same thing happened in Luke when Yashua was Baptized. The angel appeared in the form of a dove, God spoke, and the sound came out of the angels mouth. Same thing. Same thing in Revelation. Yashua is speaking, but the angel (Rev 1:1) is the one there.

4. The "Angel (messenger) of Yahweh---human non-messianic manifestations, theophanies: God in Eden, Abraham's dinner guest, etc.

(no comment)

5. The risen, glorified Messiah---clearly a different sort of being than the Yahshua who lived and died in the first century.

(no comment)

6. Non-humanoid symbolic manifestations---such as those witnessed in Ezekiel 1 or Revelation 4.

I think you are referring to here the angels around his throne? Aren’t these Cherubims? Angels again.

Anyway I am not seeing what you are saying. To me there is the Father and Son and EVERYTHING else. Obviously some of these other things are animate, different form, inanimate, and who knows what else. But to me his biggest concern is what happens to us. I think he worries about us more so than any angel or other created being he has made. However, I don’t think you are going Pantheistic on us telling us that everything God made will be redeemed. (I am getting off track. What I am trying to say is if it ain’t the Father or the Son it is nothing else but something created. There is no weird forms of the Father other than himself which is without form!)

Now all this being said I don’t want to jump the gun concerning your work. But I don’t know where you are drawing the line as to what is God and what is everything else. To me it is the Son and Father with angels playing a big part in their works.

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