Rapture


The majority of Christians believe that there is to be a "rapture" of the church/Christians just before the beginning of the "Great Tribulation" that comes in the last days. This beleif has become especially popular through the fictional writings of Tim LaHaye in his "Left Behind" series. Christians that believe in the rapture will tell you that they are going to be spared the suffering that all other non-believers will have to go through during the Great Tribulation, for the Christians will be "raptured" up into the clouds to meet "Jesus" in the air, and will forever be with him in paradise. The scriptures that are commonly quoted to support this belief are these:

1Th 4:13 Now, brothers, we do not wish you to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sad as others who have no expectation. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that YahuwehShua died and rose again, so also Elohim shall bring with Him those who sleep in YahuwehShua.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Master, that we, the living who are left over at the coming of the Master shall in no way go before those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 Because the Master Himself shall come down from heaven with a shout, with the voice of a chief messenger, and with the trumpet of Elohim, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we, the living who are left over, shall be caught away together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air – and so we shall always be with the Master.
1Th 4:18 So, then, encourage one another with these words.

Mat 24:37 "And as the days of Noahò, so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be.
Mat 24:38 "For as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noahò entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be. Mat 24:40 "Then two shall be in the field, the one is taken and the one is left.
Mat 24:41 "Two shall be grinding at the mill, one is taken and one is left.
Mat 24:42 "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Master is coming.

Luk 17:28 "And likewise, as it came to be in the days of Lot: They were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building,
Luk 17:29 but on the day Lot went out of Seḏom it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed all.
Luk 17:30 "It shall be the same in the day the Son of Aḏam is revealed.
Luk 17:31 "In that day, he who shall be on the house-top, and his goods in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back.
Luk 17:32 "Remember the wife of Lot.
Luk 17:33 "Whoever seeks to save his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 "I say to you, in that night there shall be two in one bed, the one shall be taken and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 "Two shall be grinding together, the one shall be taken and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:36 "Two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken and the other shall be left."
Luk 17:37 And they answering, said to Him, "Where, Master?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the eagles shall be gathered together."

Mat 25:1 "Then the reign of the heavens shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 "And five of them were wise, and five foolish.
Mat 25:3 "Those who were foolish, having taken their lamps, took no oil with them,
Mat 25:4 but the wise took oil in their containers with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 "Now while the bridegroom took time, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 "And at midnight a cry was heard, ‘See, the bridegroom is coming, go out to meet him!’
Mat 25:7 "Then all those maidens rose up and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 "And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
Mat 25:9 "But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, indeed, there would not be enough for us and you. Instead, go to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’
Mat 25:10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 "And later the other maidens also came, saying, ‘Master, Master, open up for us!’
Mat 25:12 "But he answering, said, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
Mat 25:13 "Watch therefore, because you do not know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Adam is coming.

Luk 21:36 "Watch then at all times, and pray that you be counted worthy to escape all this about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Aḏam."

Christians take the passages of Scripture listed above and interpret them to say that they (Christians) will be "raptured" and snatched up from the earth by Messiah and will therefore not have to go through any of the hard times of the "Great Tribulation" mentioned in Revelation. Here are some passages of Scripture that plainly contradict the "Rapture" teaching:
1Th 4:13 Now, brothers, we do not wish you to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sad as others who have no expectation. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that YahuwehShua died and rose again, so also Elohim shall bring with Him those who sleep in YahuwehShua.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Master, that we, the living who are left over at the coming of the Master shall in no way go before those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 Because the Master Himself shall come down from heaven with a shout, with the voice of a chief messenger, and with the trumpet of Elohim, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we, the living who are left over, shall be caught away together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air – and so we shall always be with the Master.
1Th 4:18 So, then, encourage one another with these words.

Notice that Shaul states twice that is the "Living who are left over". The "Living who are left over" are those believers that are still alive and SURVIVED the Great Tribulation. They are "left over" and are survivors of the persecution that the beast and the false prophet will inflict on the followers of YahuwehShua Messiah. The greek word "perileipomeni", according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, means "to leave over". This word occurs only twice in the New Testament, and is found only in the verses we are discussing: I Thess. 4:15 & 17. It is interesting that this verb is a present passive participle, and according to Thayer should be translated "to survive". So, a more accurate translation would be "we, the living who survive". Survive what? The Great Tribulation. What do they survive? Notice the following passages:

Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon (Ha Shatan) was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Elohim and possessing the witness of YahuwehShua Messiah.

Satan is furious because he cannot kill the "woman" that Elohim protects, so what does he do? He goes to persecute those followers of Messiah that are NOT protected from him! So what does he do to these followers of Messiah when he persecutes them?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones – and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them – and the lives of those who had been beheaded because of the witness they bore to YahuwehShua and because of the Word of Elohim, and who did not worship the beast, nor his image, and did not receive his mark upon their foreheads or upon their hands. And they lived and reigned with Messiah for a thousand years.

So from this passage we learn that there is a group that will have authority in the 1,000 year kingdom of Messiah to reign with Him on thrones, because they were BEHEADED for their beliefs! They would not "worship the beast, nor his image, and did not receive his mark upon their foreheads or upon their hands"! Perhaps there will be a resurrection of the guillotine to perform this mass execution of Messiah's people.

When does the Return of Messiah occur? When does the first resurrection of Messiah's people occur? AFTER the "Great Affliction". The following passages will clarify this.

Mat 24:29 “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30 “And then the sign of the Son of Adam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Adam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem.
Mat 24:31 “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Notice that Messiah comes "immediately after the distress of those days", and THEN the messengers gather His chosen ones to Him. There is no "pre-tribulation rapture" taught by our Master.
Another insight as to when Messiah comes is given by Shaul:

1Th 4:16 Because the Master Himself shall come down from heaven with a shout, with the voice of a chief messenger, and with the trumpet of Elohim, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first.
Which trumpet of Elohim is this? It is important to find out, for this is when the "dead in Messiah" rise, and it is at the coming of our Master! Let's examine I Corinthians 15, for Shaul gives us another clue:

1Co 15:51 See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here Shaul says that the resurrection and the "change" of the living will occur at the "LAST trumpet"! So the question naturally arises: "which trumpet is the last trumpet"? Messiah reveals this to us in His Revelation:
Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger sounded, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

This trumpet is the LAST trumpet mentioned in Revelation and it is the 7th trumpet, which is the LAST trumpet. When this trumpet sounds Messiah will come and reign on the earth, establishing His kingdom!
Also note 2 Thessalonians 2:

2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the Master shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth and bring to naught with the manifestation of His coming.
Messiah will destroy the false-prophet/anti-messiah at his coming! So the persecution of the set-apart ones has to be before the coming of Messiah, for our Master destroys him when He comes! Hallelu-Yah!

Favor and peace to all, Sabatismos

So, www.futuretruth.net is the source for all truth? Everyone keeps referring me to it like it has more authority than the Scriptures. I've already read it, and it promotes the "Rapture" of Christians, which I disproved in the Scriptures above. There is to be a "snatching up", but it will not be Christians that are snatched up, but those that truly love Messiah and keep His Torah.

N

I don't believe future truth to be the source of all truth, because I know KP would tell you its not - mainly because he wrote it, (no offense KP ;) ). What is isn't is a shallow stab in the dark like many sites are.

I think our point is there is too much evidence for what is written in Future History that just fits, it works, it doesn't make us feel comfortable or happy - but it fits. not just the "rapture", but everything else. Unfortunately with the evidence presented in YY and FH you cant take anything away because everything is linked. If you took away one prophetic section or event there would be a hole throughout the rest of it, all with it screaming to the event you have taken out.

Last night I tried to prepare a study for our Sabbath group, I thought it would be a good idea to do it on Passover - because its the next feast, and it will open up discussion on a lot of topics for one particular member. What a task... the amount of stuff that I wanted to try and explain, that was linked to Passover, that linked to everything else - It was mashing my head!

I think what I am trying to say, in a nice a way as possible to you Nag, is that there is more to this than just "rapture". I admire your tenacity, but you have to realize that YY and FH are very different from any other site or "Christian" believe you may have encountered before, we don't take verses and make them do what we want - we take the scriptures as a whole - especially when dealing with the prophetic, because thats how it works.

So I don't believe that future truth is the source of all truth, but it makes sense, especially along side the evidence. We could turn that comment around and say that you are also not the source of all truth, because you are also a man.

Please don't take offense :)

Hi Nag, welcome to the forum and may the peace of the Messiah be with you.

I have battled this Rapture business for some time now, and I'm still no expert in it. However, the more I view Messianic congregations, and some churches, who don't support the Rapture aren't able to fully explain their different views. Their views just don't hold water when taking into consideration the whole Scriptures. On one Messianic online Sabbath service I attended (online of course) the teacher just said he doesn't like the Rapture theory because it's dangerous. He provided no Scriptural proof as to why he said it, it was "just because" he didn't like it.

Those who die before the Rapture, those taken in the Rapture and those martyred (die) during the Tribulation are those who will rule and reign with the Messiah for a thousand years. They (we) will rule over those who survive through the Tribulation, these survivors (believers who find the Messiah and manage not to get their heads chopped off, including Jews who repent) will continue to live on earth in their mortal states, in other words they will live, they will die, they will have families, etc. At the end of the Millennium, Satan is to be released and he will manage to deceive many. If those who survive through the Tribulation all receive immortal bodies when caught up in the air, then how does Satan manage to deceive many at the end of the Millennium? Those with immortal heavenly bodies cannot sin! This is just one area believers who don't support Rapture cannot seem to explain in support of their theory.



Notice verse 31, the messengers gather together His chosen ones from"the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other," there's no mention of earth there. The believers he calls are those already in the air. Correct me is I'm wrong but I think they are called to come witness the end battle.



Nag, what's your take on "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage"? This doesn't sound like a time of "distress" to me, the Tribulation will be a distressful time, the passage speaks of a time before the Tribulation commences. When it says "so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be" it doesn't mean He will appear before Man for all to see, but the Rapture is a sign of His coming which takes place a few years later. Enoch (representing the Ekklesia) was Raptured before the flood came, and Noah (symbolizes the nation of Israel) was spared through it, who then continued to live on earth afterwards in his mortal state.

Nag, what's your take on the Feast of Trumpets? What does this festival mean to you, what does it symbolize, and why is it celebrated 10 days before the Feast of Atonement?

And concerning Yada's and KP's works, their books (and forum posts and responses) have been most insightful, they have helped me deepen my relationship with my Father. I'm sure if I went it alone I could come up with the same conclusions, given a few lifetimes of course. But we are called to be a family, and they have surely been good brothers to me, sharing their knowledge, and love, of our Father. And sharing it free I might add, just like the gift of salvation we have in Yahshua.

Edited by user Friday, January 11, 2008 7:43:04 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Sugs - I'm really not being rude or condrasending when I say this but I think in most of your posts you are missing the point :) I would recommend you read the books affiliated with this discussion forum:

Yada Yahweh
Future History
The Owners Manual

If we were to explain exactly what was going on in our heads about most of these topics, we would have to write 3 documents, probably called Yada Yahweh, Future History and The Owners Manual, and that would not fit into a single forum post :) Plus, the mod team would have to read it... ;)

The idea of the forums if for discussion of course, and that includes setting the record straight where it is bent. A lot of us in hear have come from Christian backgrounds we we know what the arguments are because we have been where you are, but we also know that most of the Christian arguments miss the point. If you are able to read these it would help in your understanding of what we are, even if you do not agree. Plus you would be able to build a better argument :)

No one is saying, not even the authors, that these books are the absolute truth - but they do help open a dialogue. If you can prove any part of them wrong, we would be very happy to hear it, and I know the authors would be also happy to hear about any errors.

As a group of people here I know that we are passed being spoon-fed the truth, and most of us have done either some or a load of research into what we are now thinking.

I hope you will have chance to read these and see where we are coming from :)

- Robski

what point am I missing?



Matthew 7:16 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)

Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
[AMP at Lockman] [The Lockman Foundation] [Amplified at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

16You will [a]fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?


I mean do you believe one can be saved but not show any fruits? I mean are not the fruit of the spirit the evidence of salvation?




atthew 3:10 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)

Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
[AMP at Lockman] [The Lockman Foundation] [Amplified at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

10And already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.


like I said i do not believe works saved No but I 100 percent believe the holy spirit will make us a new creation and will puts desires for us to do good.

Aaahh, yes, shalom82,

Rest, take a breather, brother, and have some peace and a cuppa cha'. Struggle not with things that may not affect you in one way or another. This issue has been getting much attention since it was raised over a century ago, and if one century of discussion by academics and clerics cannot clear the air, how can a few posts on an obscure website do it? Que sera sera.

Well, we do know that we have the Power of the Set-Apart Spirit and that is a tremendous bonus already as far as understanding goes. So when we look at the pieces of the puzzle again, it seems that a group of believers shall be taken away to mark the beginning of the Tribulation, and then throughout the Tribulation and Great Tribulation many shall die as believers, and that some shall live to see the day Yahushua MessiYah returns to earth. Therefore , when that moment happens, those who are dead in MessiYah Yahushua shall be resurrected, and those who are alive shall be caught up with them. Those removed earlier at the beginning of the Tribulation shall then join them all from one end of the heavens to the other. Can it not be such? Would it contradict Scripture or would it fulfill all verses? The simplicity of this may be the answer we all seek.

In the end would it really matter? Not unless you intend to plan your end-days' strategy for the worst case scenario like the Americans and their nuclear bunkers. That effort would really make your stomach churn.

Sugarman,

I'd re-look at how you define your faith. I would suggest that you read the books on this web site properly before you make certain conclusions that shall not hold up in a discussion on the many threads here. There is actually a thread and a poll on whether you would call yourself a Christian. Read it. But read YY first in its entirety. Take your time, but hurry up! :-)

Peace!

Can you please give a reference for Christ meaning to drugged whitewash etc.... i can not find that in my greek lexicon.

This is what I can find

haima hah'-ee-mah of uncertain derivation; blood, literally (of men or animals), figuratively (the juice of grapes) or specially (the atoning blood of Christ); by implication, bloodshed, also kindred:--blood


apostolos ap-os'-tol-os from 649; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ("apostle") (with miraculous powers):--apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

archiereus ar-khee-er-yuce' from 746 and 2409; the high-priest (literally, of the Jews, typically, Christ); by extension a chief priest:--chief (high) priest, chief of the priests.

Baptistes bap-tis-tace' from 907; a baptizer, as an epithet of Christ's forerunner:--Baptist.


dikaiosis dik-ah'-yo-sis from 1344; aquittal (for Christ's sake):--justification.

Emmanouel em-man-oo-ale' of Hebrew origin (6005); God with us; Emmanuel, a name of Christ:--Emmanuel.

epiphaneia ep-if-an'-i-ah from 2016; a manifestation, i.e. (specially) the advent of Christ (past or future):--appearing, brightness.

logos log'-os from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

Messias mes-see'-as of Hebrew origin (4899); the Messias (i.e. Mashiach), or Christ:--Messias.

Messias mes-see'-as of Hebrew origin (4899); the Messias (i.e. Mashiach), or Christ:--Messias.


http://www.eliyah.com/cg...xicon&isindex=Christ


more on that link do not feel like posting all the meansing for Christ

so what do you call your self then if not christian

as for me I do not really see my personal relating ship with Yah a religion


for me His holy spirit always guide me everytime I ask for wisdom and guidance

Hello Sugarman,

My brothers here are explaining to you much of which has been lost to those professing traditional Christianity. Many of us came out from there. And some from Judaism. And we do it willingly with our eyes open. It is not because we hate Christians or Jews per se, but we realise that the religions of Christianity and Judaism binds us to authorities that do not want us to do what our Creator wants us to do: believe in Yahweh and obey Him!

I ask you, before you came to this site, when you said The Lord's Prayer, whom did you pray to? "Our Father in Heaven, Holy be Your Name.." Has your church taught you the name of the Father? Do they use the name of the Father in reverence? If not, who then is your Father if you do not know His Name? As religions, Christianity and Judaism has devolved into silly rituals that actually demean Truth and the reason for our existence and our relationship with our Creator. Worse yet, these religions profess the Creator but deny His name! Furthermore, the authorities of these religions deny the followers access to the Creator! They constantly teach others to break the very rules that we are all supposed to follow. In fact, they bind the minds of men and women into submitting to their authority instead of the Divine. Religion means exactly that: Origin: 1150–1200; ME religioun (< OF religion) < L religiōn- (s. of religiō) conscientiousness, piety, equiv. to relig(āre) to tie, fasten (re- re- + ligāre to bind, tie; cf. ligament) + -iōn- -ion; cf. rely). Religion ties you down! But Yahushua came to give us freedom!

Many of us on this site do not profess a "religion" but we now walk in the Way of Yahushua. We understand Yahweh's plan for us. We accept our position as sinners, and the need of The Sacrifice for us. But we stop short of calling ourselves "Christians" unless it is expedient for the benefit of the other person. (We become like Romans so that we can talk to them... but not do as them. Get it?)

So, again, terminology is important in this site and some of us have moved on to deeper levels of understanding and it may be confusing for someone new. Forgive us. But trust us, we only have each other's interests at heart. Should one of us step out of line, some here will tell us. But we discuss much. And learn much. And you are most welcome to learn. But most learning is done by listening first, then asking. And when on this site, it means reading first, then asking. Hope this clarifies what I said earlier about reading the information on Yada Yahweh. Those are amplifications, workbooks of The Word. It is not set in stone but sure hits heavier than the biggest obelisk found to date! So read it, many answers are already there, ponder, then come back with questions. Is this agreeable? Yahweh willing, we shall be around for a while more. But take your time, and hurry up!

Peace and Blessings!

By the way, some of us here are learning a little Hebrew (and perhaps Yiddish) because it helps us understand Scripture better and helps us connect with some of the remnant of Yahweh's chosen people. Don't be fazed by it as it is mostly for comradeship. Shalom Aleichem!