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Offline shalom82  
#1 Posted : Friday, December 28, 2007 9:37:19 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

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Shalom Qodeshim,
I write this with a heavy heart and with the utmost gravity. After reading scripture and reviewing kp's ToM, I am getting an uneasy feeling that Torah does not apply to Israel and the adopted Yahudim in a blanket manner. We can try to justify a person's desire to live as much as they can according to the Torah through various verses and lines of reasoning but we can't just assume that Yahuweh relates to all people IN A TEMPORAL SENSE in the same way. Correct me if I am not getting the jist of your reasoning kp. I don't really like writing this and if this summation is made apparent through prayerful communion with Yahuweh and a diligent washing in the word I myself might have to walk away from some of the Torah, which is heart rending to even consider. But for too long I came to my own conclusions based on the precondition of what I wanted to believe. I don't really want to do that again with a swing to the other direction. The Way is not a club for people who think matza, shofars, and tzit tzit are cool (no matter how cool they may be). Please trust me, I write these words with a lot of aching in my heart and a sense of uncertainty and dare I say fear...but I am comforted in the fact that this is how I felt on the cusp of the greater revelation of Yahuweh, his salvation, his sabbaths, and his set apart convocations, and the scriptural mandate for relationship and fellowship with our Elohim. I have a few questions and I would really appreciate your views and evidence for your justifications. I know what I would like to hear...what I want to hear, but I hope I would strive to hear (and accept) what I need to hear.

Most of my quandries deal with what kp called the signs and symbols.

Shaul made it evident that circumcision was not a prerequisite to salvation as well we know it should not be by the example of Abraham. But my twofold question is understanding that the circumcision is a sign of covenant relationship is it wrong to circumcise gentile boys at 8 days of age according to the Abrahamic covenant? Was the issue that Paul discussed an issue of putting the cart before the horse? I can almost picture nervous Galatians standing in line at the local Messiah believing Mohel's house...walking in the front door that was marked "unsaved"...and being carried out the back door marked "saved"! I know it's just a sign of the more important circumcision of the heart, but tell that to a wife that a ring is merely a sign of the spiritual union of marriage. Has circumcision of the heart become akin to circumcision of the flesh (understanding that circumcision was merely a sign for the expected inward condition (that was quite often not present in the hearts of the sons of Yisrael)) in the Messianic age for the gentiles? I ask for a very pointed reason and that reason is Pesach. I think we all are aware of the biblical mandates pertaining to Pesach, and we know that it was supposed to be kept throughout the generations and I think the word forever was even used. Now according to the English language of the text, I will admit it could hint to the spiritual and the eternal.

Exo 12:48 “And when a stranger sojourns with you and shall perform the Passover to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and perform it, and he shall be as a native of the land. But let no uncircumcised eat of it.

Could the non specific "let all his males be circumcised" mean a spiritual circumcision of the heart in the Messianic age? Any thoughts? But still all things considered is is wrong for Gentiles to desire that their sons are circumcised according to the Word of Yahuweh knowing that is is in the end only a sign and not the condition of the heart? (especially when we consider that Paul's words were not considered scripture at the time of his writing(I don't say that to knock Paul, but simply to state that the covenant scriptures were what the early believers of Messiah had to base their belief on)) Those questions being asked...let YHWH's will be whatever His will may be...and let my will be His will...I pray.

Are the signs of the covenant off limits to Gentile believers no matter how beneficial they may be to the Gentile believer? Is it inherrently wrong for the Gentile to wear tzit tzit or attach a constant reminder to the mezuzah/doorpost of their homes of what the Word says should be his/her utmost striving in life...to love Yahuweh with all their heart, all their soul, and with all their strength? Are they to live bereft of the signs and symbols that remind them of greater spiritual truths...especially when in many cases the Yahudim are absent in the community or defy the spirit of Yahuweh with their legalism....and religious slavishness? The Gentile inherited lies from their fathers....for example the cross. Does the Gentile have no claim to Israel even spiritually? What I am asking is what is wrong. Is it wrong for the Gentile to live his/her life as a child of Yisrael understanding that there is perhaps not mandate to do so, but a deep yearning and desire to do so, understanding full well that salvation is not earned by such observance? Or is the real wrong arrogantly and santimoniously lording Torah over a people...embarrassing them and implying they are not in relationship with Yahuweh because they do not strive to keep all of the Torah when there is no clear mandate for the necessity of them carrying out certain precepts? What was Shaul/Paul getting at? Let YHWH's will be whatever His will may be...and let my will be His will...I pray.

How much blood makes a child of Yisrael? A drop? A smattering?...A pint? Perhaps it's not so much blood as it is the knowledge of blood and ancestry? Who decides how much blood it takes to live according to the covenant given to Yisrael? One Gentile desires to be circumcised....one does not...is it impossible for them both to be within Yahuweh's will? One Gentile decides to wear tzit tzit...one does not...is one being willful and disobedient? Is the simple desire wrong....or is it the mandate and demand of observance the real culprit? I once read, "The best way to be Torah observant is to believe what the Torah says" I believe in retrospect that that that does not go far enough. What should have been added at the end is,"...and then to live according to the spiritual demands of the Word." Can a man live a spiritually circumcised life without being circumcised in the flesh?...Yes,I think he can. Does that exclude or make evil the man who desires the outward sign of the inward condition...even when he does not demand such an observance by others and does not expect to be held in esteem for the physical observance? How far do we go in the body of Messiah? If some things are mandated only for Israel and the Goyim are excluded from the outset does that not cause division and separation the the body of Messiah, and historically was not that separation PARTIALLY to blame for the Gentiles fornication with paganism? From what is the Gentile excluded from in fellowship? Can he still read the Book? Can he teach and preach to Yahudim? Can he/she marry a Yahudi or is that off limits? Let YHWH's will be whatever His will may be... and let my will be His will...I pray.

Shalom in Immanuel's great name

P.S. I know some of my questions may seem sarcastic or sophmoric, but I sincerely desired to begin from the beginning and ask questions that had long since been resolved in my eyes but came up again in the passing of time. I really hope that whoever reads this will not doubt my intentions and sincerity I ask,please, that you would excuse any faults that my writing my have. I truly do desire that my will would be Yahuweh's will...and I truly to pray that I would not try put his will into the mould of my will. I pray for the shalom that comes from knowledge...not for knowledge for the sake of knowledge...but as a means to greater fellowship and relationship with Yahuweh.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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Offline gammafighter  
#2 Posted : Friday, December 28, 2007 10:39:24 PM(UTC)
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Joined: 11/6/2007(UTC)
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Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Shalom Shalom82,

These are questions well asked. I commend you for bringing up ideas which could potentially be unpopular in this community.
To me, this is what the book YY is all about: questioning everything. How long did I believe the tradition of the Church just because I thought it was the right thing? I don't want to do that same thing with this community.

I've been wondering the same thing and was planning on making it a long-term study of mine. Apparently, not all of the Torah applies to every person. For example, only a certain group (i forget who) within the Israelites was permitted to perform the executions for the laws which, when broken, demanded death. Israelites couldn't have any excuse to just go around killing people and saying it was for violation of the Torah.

The implications are pretty powerful. Does this mean we have no reason or right to force Gentiles to keep the Torah? For example, do we have no Scriptural right to tell a Gentile woman that she can't have an abortion? Personally, I think that if the Constitution really does allow for such a thing, we need a new Constitution, so that's a moot point for me, but there might be many people who are pro-life primarily for religious reasons.

So I don't know the answers, but I have been thinking along the same lines. I think maybe we should look at each part of the Torah for context and such and decide on each part from there. That's what I plan to do.
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Offline shalom82  
#3 Posted : Friday, December 28, 2007 11:31:56 PM(UTC)
shalom82
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And shalom to you Gamma,

I think you should still make this a long term study...haha. We need to be deliberate, thorough, prayerful...and maybe...for lack of a better word...slow. I don't want to jump to conclusions in either direction. We have to ask ourselves questions like how much Torah can be absent in the life of a supposed believer before we can conclude that the Ruach is not with them. What is universal and what is not? What is beneficial but not mandated? What is forbidden (if anything)? I said I had a sinking feeling that Torah or portions of was not universal, but that is still in my mind a feeling...nothing more...nothing less. Yahushua dealt almost exclusively with Torah and Shaul/Paul dealt with Torah a great deal as well and used it for metaphors pointing to a spiritual reality and almost quoted from it directly (the list was completely from the Torah) when dealing with the people who weren't gonna be in the kingdom of heaven. I even think that Shaul's recommendation to expell immoral congregation members was in a way akin to spiritual stoning...not the letter...but indeed the spirit. We can't go too far in the other direction and say everything is permissible and return to the old Gentile way. Which...please...don't think I am saying you advocate that. I am sure you don't. The sabbath and the convocations (and the necessity to observe the Scriptural calendar due to the Moedim), the moral commandments....at least these remain...at least. As for scriptural diet...it may be simply a warning label...a recommendation...it could be more.

Quote:
All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations, a people who continually provoke me to my very face...who eat the flesh of pigs and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat. Isaiah 65:2-4 written 1400 b.c.

Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things, they will meet their end together," declares the Lord. Isaiah 66:17 written 1400 b.c
.

I can understand perhaps the signs and symbols not applying to the Goyim, but things like a scriptural diet I cannot understand why there would be a double standard.

This is a justification that is my own...it's not so much scriptural other than in a coincidental sense...but take it for what it's worth.

We are each of us in the body of Messiah...the living tabernacles of Yahuweh. If the Temple were standing in Yerushalaim...not one of us would dare run into the Temple with a bushel basket of Shrimp and dump it on the altar and start smashing them with the flat edge of the blade. We would not sacrifice a pig and drag it through the Kadosh Hakadashim. If the shekinah was present at the first temple, and the prolonged shekinah, Yahushua was present at the second...and we seriously believe that through Yahuweh's pesach offering that Yahushua and his Spirit are in us...thus Yahuweh is in Us...something moral remains in the dietary precepts...if it applies to timber, gold and stones...how much more so does it apply to the body of the human being? Perhaps in the post temple Messianic age...the clean and unclean food mandates gain significance....instead of forfeiting it. Maybe complete conjecture...I don't know.

Truth exists...absolute and pure truth exists...I know it is so. But can man always attain it? Perhaps not...and this is coming from a person who hates moral relativism. At some time in some circumstances as we are now temporal fleshy beings...Yah given conscience informed of the facts must come into play.

Don't think I am refuting everything I said in the first post....I am trying to say I am ready to consider that I have been following my will more than that of my Father's. I am ready to hear what I need...whatever it may be...instead of what I want to hear. This is a very big step for me. It's like a wall has been broken down. Peace of mind and Shalom in my heart will follow this time of uncertainty...because now I dilligently seek...and whenever I have done so I have been rewarded with...peace of mind...and shalom in my heart. In this case not only what I need...but what I want as well.

Shalom
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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Offline kp  
#4 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2007 8:04:06 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA
I'm detecting an undercurrent of---what is it?---frustration, confusion, agony over the nature of the Torah, and how it relates/applies differently to Jews than to gentiles. Shalom82 wrote, "I can understand perhaps the signs and symbols not applying to the Goyim...." You've missed the entire point, my friend: the signs and symbols are the only things that apply to the goyim. There is no double standard, but there is a performer-audience dynamic in play here that I fear has gone completely unnoticed.

In a nutshell, the "Law" was given to Israel to perform, to act out. Virtually everything in the Torah is a symbol, a metaphor, for some greater spiritual truth. Israel was chosen by God to be the vehicle through which those signs would be made manifest to the world---i.e., everybody else, the goyim. Time after time we see the formula, "And Yahweh said to Moses, speak to the children of Israel, and say...." Even the Decalogue was worded in terms Israel would relate to first. In the drama of human life, Yahweh is the Playwright and Director, Israel is the cast, and the gentiles are the audience. Yahweh has written the lines, and Israel is supposed to speak them. The fact that they haven't properly read their lines for the past couple of millennia doesn't change that fact. Some of the gentiles have gotten hold of copies of the play, however, and they've been trying to follow the plot. The first thing they've noticed is that Israel has blown its lines. It's become a night at the improv, in fact. Nobody's following the script. And this is truly unfortunate, because the script reveals how God is providing salvation and cleansing to the whole world (including both the Jews in the cast and the gentiles in the audience).

Is it proper, is it necessary, for the goyim audience to ascend to the stage, replace the Israelite cast, and try to read the lines themselves? No. That's not what the Playwright wants. What He wants is for the Jews to read their lines with courage and conviction, and for the goyim audience to attentively comprehend what's being said. Every word, every nuance, every gesture, every prop and lighting cue means something. And that meaning has eternal significance. If the only way the audience can comprehend what the play is about is to read the script, then that they must do. But it's not their job to act out the play. If they respect the Playwright, they'll keep their seats, try their best to follow along, and applaud when the cast gets something right.

Who benefits from seeing the play? The cast, if they perform well, receive honor and accolades (and if not, the opposite). The audience benefits as well---if they comprehend what the play is about. The problem is, if they don't carefully study the script, the poor performance of the actors often prompts them to boo the Playwright, not (only) the cast. Unfair, and unwise.

In truth, there is very little in the play that the audience is equipped to "perform" without usurping the roles of the cast members. Much of the play requires elaborate sets: the temple, the priesthood, the Levite chorus, etc. But let's take a look at a few of these rare "audience-participation" parts. (1) the dietary laws: if the audience respects the Playwright, they'll be inclined to "sing along" with the cast here, word for word. But there is an underlying theme that must be seen if the Play is to make a lasting impact: we must be discerning about what we assimilate into our lives if we want to remain spiritually healthy. That is, don't put worthless crap into your life. (2) the seven miqrym: think of these as "scene changes" or intermissions between acts. They are very carefully scheduled by the Playwright. If the audience gets up and wanders around in the lobby at times other than these, they'll miss the continuity, and much of the content, of the play---and then they'll be bored to tears when the scheduled breaks do occur. (In other words, if the audience celebrates Christmas and Easter in place of the Feast of Tabernacles and Passover, they'll miss the continuity of the script-ures.) And (3) the Sabbath: the Playwright has called for the Hero to rescue the heroine from certain death in the last act. They are to ride off into the sunset together, forever. Now imagine this ludicrous scenario: the audience screams, hollers, and stamps its feet until the heroine on stage extricates herself from her predicament. She thinks she's free, but because she's rescued herself, she never does meet her Hero---she ends up dying a lonely old maid. It's dumb, I know, but that's what happens when the audience forsakes the Sabbath.

I apologize if that metaphor got out of control. But it's one way of clarifying the functional difference between Israel and the gentiles in this world: our means of salvation are identical, but our roles in bringing the good news of Yahshua's redemption to mankind are quite different.

kp
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Offline shalom82  
#5 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2007 8:50:23 AM(UTC)
shalom82
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No kp, I dont think I missed the entire point. I may have mistyped, and what I should have said is that perhaps the signs and symbols are not to be acted out...applied in an active sense....as it would be with Israel. I understand that the signs apply to the gentiles and they are to observe, understand, and appreciate as you said. There was a mistake of my writing but not of my heart, kp. If I was not somehow moved or if a greater truth had not been revealed I would have gone on quite happily as I had been....as it was with religious christianity. Yes you are right kp; there has been confusion, frustration, and agony lately over the nature of Torah...I know there will be peace of mind as long as I earnestly and lovingly seek out the truth with a mind not to make up my own version of it. At least some of the questions I have asked are legitimate in light of the topic...probably some of them are ridiculous to a person who has walked on the path for a prolonged period of time. I apologize if they are. At any rate, I thankyou for the cold pigs...they push me towards maturation.

Quote:
Shalom Shalom82 et al

Thank you for provoking thought!!!
Please consider what I say ,whilst knowing I am not yet completely transformed into the image of Messiah !!!
Signs and symbols and gentiles

1. Was Ruth in Moab truly a 'gentile' after her declarations to Naomi, whilst still in the land of Moab (Ruth 1 v 9 - 18) note all the names when translated from the Hebrew.

2. Was Nebuchadnezzar truly a 'gentile' particularly after his declarations from Daniel 3 v 28 onwards.

3. And then there was Cornelius (Acts 10)

If all these people entered into a relationship with YHWH what does it make them?

If we, who now know his name,and keep his Sabbath and Appointments, seek his way (Torah). ,do it because we now know better than 'christians' what does it make us?

In temple times the Levitical priesthood made national 'atonement'. Which was an obligatory temple attendance for male Israelites living in the land at this miqra.This is separate from 'walking alongside YHWH' which was a voluntary option open to all from Adam onwards.
As the priesthood has been made redundant by the one High Priest by whom individual atonement is given, the walk is still optional after accepting the High Priests' individual gift.

As the Ruach Qodesh used to 'sit upon' individual(s), so now the individual has a choice.
It may not be taught like this within 'religious' circles.
We are told that the 'Comforter' will come Jn 15:26 (the Greek is PARAKLETOS one who comes alongside),
I deduce from this that 'alongside' is different from 'in'.
Therefore the choice still has to be made whether or not to make the invitation.
If the invite is made to the comforter to change place from alongside to within ,it still does not mean very much unless the Ruach Qodesh is allowed to work within the 'new temple arena'.
Each 'new temple arena' has free choice as to how much they want the Ruach Qodesh access to their heart ,mind,and will so as to allow the transformation into the image of Messiah.
Torah consolidates 'walking the way'. The Way is written upon our hearts.
Salvation is the starting point
What comes next is what appears to be what YHWH is really interested in.
'Yehudim' seems to describe post 'salvation' Walking.
Walking in what? I hope TRUTH

'christians' have the same choices if they accept the gift of the High Priest. If they desire to 'go all the way' it would appear they don't want to stay in 'christianity' ??!!
It seems that if 'gentiles' or 'jews' or ' christians' or 'yehudim' fulfil none or only some of the ways according to YHWH then something is missing!!!

If we confess our sins/debts transgressions ( Matt 6)and get forgiveness, what are we getting forgiven? I understand the forgiveness to be for those things we realise are unacceptable to Yahuweh.And that by coming to that realisation we desire that in future to be have 'metenoia'( a change of mindset,from ours to Yahuwehs) on the subject confessed . However, if we confess without the desire then no 'change' will occur.Thus the active role in our lives of RQ is fundamental .Yahuweh is Spirit and we need HIS.


Without the RQ we are empty. But where ever the 'me 'is RQ is not, where ever RQ is 'me' is diminished.
We might be terribly 'knowledgeable' in and of the Scriptures.
Our knowledge of the biblical times and languages may be profound.
But if we lack the desire to let loose the RQ in the whole of what makes us 'us' we do not get transformed enough into the image of Yahushua (who had the knowledge of YHWH's righteousness, knew his will.Thus always walked his way)
We need the RQ to meet further needs;-
We need Agape without which we cannot begin to fulfil the 1st of the 10 commandments.
We need trust/reliance upon YHWH
We need to become 'humble' (small) not physically but of our mind, our will/desire and emotion giving up our own righteousness (our own knowledge of Good AND of Evil)
THEN the transformation into the mindset and emotions and righteousness of YHWH will be what we use to walk our walk with him.
We are then in the process of being/becoming CLEAN
It is not just WHAT we eat or don't eat, wear or don't, circumcise or not but WHY and HOW.
The RQ will endow us with What ,Why , How ,even Where.
Ruach Ha'Qodesh is THE link that gives everything pertaining to the Reign of Yahuweh to us.

What a wonderful way for me to spend the afternoon
Shabbat Shallom
Jane (J&M)

Edited by user Saturday, December 29, 2007 1:14:26 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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Offline Noach  
#6 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2007 11:29:44 AM(UTC)
Noach
Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127
I am confused by all of this. Forgive me Shalom82, but this seems like an awful lot of hyperanalyzation. If you are in a covenant relationship with Yahuwah, what part do you have with being a gentile? "Therefore remember that you, once gentiles in the flesh...excluded from the citizenship of Yisra'el and strangers from the covenants of promise...but now in MessiYAH Yahushua you who were once far off have been brought near by the blood of the MessiYAH...so then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the set apart ones and members of the household of Elohim" (Eph. 2:11-19). Seems to me KP, that we are part of the play, not just spectators. We are adopted into the family and are defenitely part of the cast. Yahushua opened the backdoor "cast only" door wide open. All we have to do is walk through it. As a part of the cast, it is important that we play by the script, even more important, because a huge majority of the original cast members are acting out a different play with their own script and no one besides them seems to care.

Noach
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Offline shalom82  
#7 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2007 1:33:09 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
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I don't know if it is hyperanalyzation, Noach, perhaps it is, but the points that kp makes are AT THE LEAST worth looking into. I have not made any conclusions as of yet and I don't suggest that anybody be hasty. Anyone who is familiar with me knows that I have always been a proponent of livng out the Torah in both a spiritual and practical sense, but I seek simply to search the scriptures and my heart to analyze why I make the conclusions I do. I hope and pray that I will strive to understand, internalize, love, and do Yahuweh's will. I don't think this is hyperanalyzation any more than it was for me to examine my life in and in doing so separate myself from the religious system of Christianity. I think that I have asked at least a few valid questions. Perhaps we can take the time to examine them and answer according to our knowledge of the will of Yahuweh. Please understand Noach that my first impulse is just to go an as I have been living but I believe that would go against where my conscience (or is that the Spirit) is leading me and as I feel now I believe paradigm shift/change of heart or not my motives, reasons, and justifications must be analyzed. I pray that I will not fall into a trap of obfuscation or confusion, but I shall just have to trust in the guidance of the Ruach. As I have said before, whenever I have trusted I have been rewarded with peace of mind, I don't think this shall be any different.

What I am going to do from tonight is read no more ToM, no more books, no more internet sites, no position papers, opinion articles....nothing...sola scriptura that's it. As it pertains to this topic I am going to read and rely on the scriptures only and enter a period of prayer and reflection. That will be the most worthwhile thing I can do. This is my path from here on out as it pertains to this specific issue. I pray for understanding and acceptance. I hope you will pray for me too.

Shalom
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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Offline CK  
#8 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:33:33 PM(UTC)
CK
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 128
Location: Washington State
I can understand most of what Shalom82 is trying to convey here, but I'll leave the 'splaning' to Shalom82. Jane's words resonate to me. Kp's are exceptionally readable. I concur with Noach's assessment: "we are part of the play, not just spectators." But I can't help but think that kp isn't saying that we (as previous 'goyim') are 'merely' spectators. In my mind's eye I can see the picture he is trying to draw. Kind of like what Sidney Portier (a handsome black man) said to his future father-in-law (a disconcerted elderly white man) in "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner": "You do the Wahtoosie. We are the Wahtoosie." Okay, so I don't know how to spell wahtoosie correctly, and most of you have probably never heard of the movie I just cited. LOL. The analogy I'm attempting to draw is: Us adopted Yahudim kids try to observe Torah to the best of our understanding, but Yah's first chosen Yahudim kids were suppose to be the walking Torah.

At any rate, I'm going to admit right here and now I understand Yah's Word about The Feasts, but I don't know how to correctly observe The Feasts. I can read Scriptures about these matters until the cows come home, but I don't know how to apply it to the here and now. I've consulted lots of sources, and remain confused. Go head start throwing the tomatoes! :-)

Thank you Shalom82 for giving me the courage to speak up about my ignorance of these things!

CK

P.S. to Shalom82: Yes - Shut it down. Go direct to Dad and His Scriptures. Reflect and learn from His Spirit!!!!!

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Offline Yada  
#9 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:52:14 PM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537
I love Ken's metaphor as it brought everything into perspective for me.

I have also wondered about how exactly each of the Miqra are meant to be observed/celebrated. Some time ago I started a separate thread devoted to each of the Miqra for this purpose. Perhaps we can revive these threads and get the answers we're looking for.

The threads can be found under the "The Miqra" topic. Each is listed as, for example: Passover 101.

Edited by user Saturday, December 29, 2007 7:50:48 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Yada  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, May 20, 2008 5:57:13 AM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537
I was discussing this question tonight with one of our admins in the YY Study Group room. I copied and pasted Ken's post & metaphor in this thread:

Quote:
I'm detecting an undercurrent of---what is it?---frustration, confusion, agony over the nature of the Torah, and how it relates/applies differently to Jews than to gentiles. Shalom82 wrote, "I can understand perhaps the signs and symbols not applying to the Goyim...." You've missed the entire point, my friend: the signs and symbols are the only things that apply to the goyim. There is no double standard, but there is a performer-audience dynamic in play here that I fear has gone completely unnoticed.

In a nutshell, the "Law" was given to Israel to perform, to act out. Virtually everything in the Torah is a symbol, a metaphor, for some greater spiritual truth. Israel was chosen by God to be the vehicle through which those signs would be made manifest to the world---i.e., everybody else, the goyim. Time after time we see the formula, "And Yahweh said to Moses, speak to the children of Israel, and say...." Even the Decalogue was worded in terms Israel would relate to first. In the drama of human life, Yahweh is the Playwright and Director, Israel is the cast, and the gentiles are the audience. Yahweh has written the lines, and Israel is supposed to speak them. The fact that they haven't properly read their lines for the past couple of millennia doesn't change that fact. Some of the gentiles have gotten hold of copies of the play, however, and they've been trying to follow the plot. The first thing they've noticed is that Israel has blown its lines. It's become a night at the improv, in fact. Nobody's following the script. And this is truly unfortunate, because the script reveals how God is providing salvation and cleansing to the whole world (including both the Jews in the cast and the gentiles in the audience).

Is it proper, is it necessary, for the goyim audience to ascend to the stage, replace the Israelite cast, and try to read the lines themselves? No. That's not what the Playwright wants. What He wants is for the Jews to read their lines with courage and conviction, and for the goyim audience to attentively comprehend what's being said. Every word, every nuance, every gesture, every prop and lighting cue means something. And that meaning has eternal significance. If the only way the audience can comprehend what the play is about is to read the script, then that they must do. But it's not their job to act out the play. If they respect the Playwright, they'll keep their seats, try their best to follow along, and applaud when the cast gets something right.

Who benefits from seeing the play? The cast, if they perform well, receive honor and accolades (and if not, the opposite). The audience benefits as well---if they comprehend what the play is about. The problem is, if they don't carefully study the script, the poor performance of the actors often prompts them to boo the Playwright, not (only) the cast. Unfair, and unwise.

In truth, there is very little in the play that the audience is equipped to "perform" without usurping the roles of the cast members. Much of the play requires elaborate sets: the temple, the priesthood, the Levite chorus, etc. But let's take a look at a few of these rare "audience-participation" parts. (1) the dietary laws: if the audience respects the Playwright, they'll be inclined to "sing along" with the cast here, word for word. But there is an underlying theme that must be seen if the Play is to make a lasting impact: we must be discerning about what we assimilate into our lives if we want to remain spiritually healthy. That is, don't put worthless crap into your life. (2) the seven miqrym: think of these as "scene changes" or intermissions between acts. They are very carefully scheduled by the Playwright. If the audience gets up and wanders around in the lobby at times other than these, they'll miss the continuity, and much of the content, of the play---and then they'll be bored to tears when the scheduled breaks do occur. (In other words, if the audience celebrates Christmas and Easter in place of the Feast of Tabernacles and Passover, they'll miss the continuity of the script-ures.) And (3) the Sabbath: the Playwright has called for the Hero to rescue the heroine from certain death in the last act. They are to ride off into the sunset together, forever. Now imagine this ludicrous scenario: the audience screams, hollers, and stamps its feet until the heroine on stage extricates herself from her predicament. She thinks she's free, but because she's rescued herself, she never does meet her Hero---she ends up dying a lonely old maid. It's dumb, I know, but that's what happens when the audience forsakes the Sabbath.

I apologize if that metaphor got out of control. But it's one way of clarifying the functional difference between Israel and the gentiles in this world: our means of salvation are identical, but our roles in bringing the good news of Yahshua's redemption to mankind are quite different.

kp


After she told me that she disagreed, she said:

Quote:
there is also another possibility... that I am in fact jewish


I tried to explain that our roles were different and asked her how many of the Apostles were Gentile? And, how many Gentiles authored Scripture?

I tried to explain that Yahshua taught using parables and that these metaphors were useful "to reach people, to spread the Word - to communicate."

Her response simply was:

Quote:
thats nice but I think the words of YAH have power and lead us

Then, shortly afterwards, she said, "I am going to have to go now."

She's been a wonderful admin and very supportive in the room. I thought I would post the exchange/question here to generate some thoughts. I asked her to post her thoughts as well. Maybe we can both learn something here.



Edited by user Tuesday, May 20, 2008 7:53:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline kp  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:24:20 AM(UTC)
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Okay, so (correct me if I misread this) she's a gentile by birth, but feels that when she formed a relationship with Yahweh she became Jewish, with all of the attendant rights and responsibilities. Is that it? It's a lovely theory, but it won't hold water, Yada. I'd suggest she go back and read Acts 15 half a dozen times: there are such things as gentile believers. And they aren't required to become Jews first.

There's another hurdle, this one prophetic, that she needs to get over. In the Millennial kingdom, scripture speaks of "the nations" coming to give homage to King Yahshua in Israel. The Tribulation's function is to wipe the earth clean of all who have not chosen to have a familial relationship with Yahweh. Therefore, it is clear that as the Millennium gets underway---at least after the separation of the sheep from the goats (which is apparently complete 45 days into it)---the Kingdom is initially populated exclusively by believers. But if they all magically transform into children of Israel when they're saved, who are the "nations" who come from the four corners of the earth to honor Israel and worship the Messiah-King?

Or how about this one? The Song of Solomon is a poetic prophecy that speaks of the King's torrid love affair with "the Shulamite." I take her to be the ekklesia---populated primarily by gentile believers. If this is not the case, then who in tarnation are the "Daughters of Jerusalem" who see the love match as such a wonderful thing? It's pretty obvious to me: they represent Israel, as a separate and distinct entity from the King's bride.

kp
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Offline bitnet  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, May 21, 2008 10:17:25 PM(UTC)
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Shalom All,

That's one of the things I like about this forum: we each have a voice and we use it well without any hint of abuse in our search for the origin of the the Voice that calls each of us.

Anyway, I can relate to the questions that brother Shalom82 asked and metaphors that KP wrote, and the Scriptural facts that show all of humanity are now welcome into The Greatest Show on Earth. For a while the Show had a limited cast, but since the Director played out the key roles 2,000 years ago and opened the cast, anyone can join in the latest Act.

But the thing to remember is that the full message of the Show is for everyone at all times, whether in Act 1 or Act 2.

The Producer has thrown open the company doors and expanded the production since 2,000 years ago. Anyone who participates in the Show (whether in the wings on stage, or camera grips, or audio and lighting technicians, carpenters, painters or CGI animators, legal advisors, accountants, janitors, choreographers, etc.) now become part of the Show. They shall also be entitled to most of the benefits made to the original cast as the terms of employment are much the same for the company employees in Act 1 or Act 2. But they all have to promote the one and same Show!

So, I'd say that even though I am not born a Jew and am just another goy, I am indebted to Writer/Producer/Director Yahweh to observe the things entrusted to me in my little role in the Show. Part of it is eating the same food from the caterers because the Producer has employed only one catering crew with a limited menu. Whatever else I have to observe on the set, including breaks and intermissions called by the Director, is at His discretion. He has not required us to take take on the roles of the original cast, but to promote the Show even as work in it.

In short, I am obliged to behave much like a company man. The good thing is that the Writer/Producer/Director treats His cast and crew as One Family. But I am still just another goy in support of the original cast who have yet to play all their roles! The Show is still going on! If I do my part well, and the Message goes out well to the audience, they will appreciate the Writer/Producer/Director and overall production. And if I do not take my role seriously, I can be replaced by another goy watching from the floor.

What is a goy to do to be part of the company? Respect all cast and crew, all that has happened, and especially the Writer/Producer/Director by doing the little that is asked of us. Should goys do more, like wear tzit-tzit or put up mezuzah? Well, since movie fans put up posters of their favourite shows, so why not? But that won't change the terms of the employment contract! Apparently the original cast have these terms in the contract, but not those in Act 2, says Shaul. But in appreciation of the original cast taking the Show from Act 1 to Act 2, some goys shall be glad to dress and behave like their favourite stars. But it is not ultimately required of them, and that is what caused some confusion among the believers almost two millenia ago.

So all the world's a stage and soon it'll be time to take a bow. Exit stage, front and centre whether Yahudym or gowym, for we shall all leave as Qodeshim.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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Offline Matthew  
#13 Posted : Thursday, February 12, 2009 2:15:56 AM(UTC)
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Note commenting on any of the previous posts but I thought my findings were relevant to the topic:

I was writing yesterday about the cities of refuge as mentioned in Numbers 35 and I presume (because I'm not good with geographical locations) they are to be within the land of Israel. This to me also confirms Israel being the sign-bearers of the Covenant whereas Gentiles are to inwardly observe the law. Because if a Gentile unintentionally kills a man where is he to flee?

KP paints an awesome picture in in mitzvah #260 in chapter 7, mitzvah #292-295 in chapter 8, and in mitzvah #398 in chapter 10 of TOM.
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Offline kp  
#14 Posted : Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:11:15 AM(UTC)
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Actually, Matthew, of the six cities of refuge, three were in the Land of Promise (west of the Jordan) and three were in what had been Ammonite or Gileadite territory (modern Jordan) east of the river---in the lands errantly settled by Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh. I take this to mean that both Jews and gentiles are under the same symbolic truth: the cities of refuge are our mortal bodies; we must not leave them (by dying) without being "pardoned" through the death of the High Priest (Yahshua).

kp
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Offline Matthew  
#15 Posted : Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:43:31 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for clearing that up kp. I'm not particularly good with the history of the Middle East especially in regards to Biblical people and their locations. I did notice in the verses it made a distinction between one side of the Jordan and in the land of Canaan.

From what I see in your post the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh settled in land not a part of the Promised Land. If I'm right in my understanding now, I do see this making sense, because I can't see Yahweh saying "build cities of refuge in a foreign land managed by strangers" if all the tribes had actually settled in their proper places, that means some Israelites would have to physically live outside the Land of Promise. Am I on the right track here?
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Offline kp  
#16 Posted : Friday, February 13, 2009 7:49:53 AM(UTC)
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Yeah, Matthew. I don't know how Yahweh would have instructed us about this if the Israelites had all been obedient and had entered the Land as instructed. On the other hand, our screw-ups are the medium His "culture" grows in in this Petrie dish we call human existence. If we never did anything "wrong," it would really be hard to understand our need for salvation. Bottom line: what's important is not the shadow (the cities of refuge) but the reality that casts the shadow (God's provision for our indemnification from guilt).

kp
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Offline bitnet  
#17 Posted : Friday, February 13, 2009 10:02:44 PM(UTC)
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Shabbat Shalom,

Moving on with the discussion... we who were born gentiles but who have accepted the Good News with gladness in our hearts, moving with The Set-Apart Spirit to live in accordance with The Word and Abba Yahweh, are now no more gentile but Yahudym. The question is whether we should be following Jewish customs and culture, and it is my opinion that we must discern what is acceptable, righteous and Scriptural and not just following plain tradition.

I have met Messianics who use Jewish customs in their praise and worship, and who feel that they should be Jews after accepting Messiah Yahushua. It is quite a romantic notion and although it is natural to have love for His people, it is also potentially disruptive to follow non-Scriptural traditions that have ingrained itself into the culture. What does it really mean to have a culture that is Jewish or one that is Hebrew or one that is neither but in step with Scripture? Growing beards, lighting the menorah, wearing a shawl, reading parashat... is this what make a person a real Yahudym?

There seems to be much to discuss but people tend to move with the familiar and think that since things has been done a particular way for the past 2,000 years then it must be the right way. I beg to differ. I prefer to think that being Jewish or practicing Jewish culture has little to do with Salvation. Oh, sure we try to keep the Commandments, the Feasts, the diet, and perhaps water baptism and even circumcision (especially if you are born a Yahudi) but this does not make us Jewish. It makes us Yahudym.

You can use any language to learn and praise and share The Good News (not just Hebrew), cook and eat your food without it having to be certified kosher and in any style you like (haven't had much Jewish food before), and not have wear the Star of David on your shirt, tie, scarf, or socks to prove your loyalty to Israel and to Abba Yahweh. So the real question is one of culture, not race, for in Abba Yahweh we are all the same once we make up our minds to love Him and each other as He says. So for this coming Pesach I may not have a traditional seder but I may have a roasted lamb shank, chapathis, buttered vegetables and perhaps even Cantonese steamed grouper (if I can get the recipe and induce the wife to cook it).

Would this make me any less a Believer and a follower of Torah?
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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Offline In His Name  
#18 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:43:09 AM(UTC)
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bitnet wrote:


Would this make me any less a Believer and a follower of Torah?


Quote:
Matthew (NIV) 10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"

13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[e] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "


I think you are on solid ground (Rock) Bitnet. Enjoy your lamb and grouper, praise the Lamb and Savior.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
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Offline In His Name  
#19 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:58:27 AM(UTC)
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bitnet wrote:
Shabbat Shalom,

Moving on with the discussion... we who were born gentiles but who have accepted the Good News with gladness in our hearts, moving with The Set-Apart Spirit to live in accordance with The Word and Abba Yahweh, are now no more gentile but Yahudym. The question is whether we should be following Jewish customs and culture, and it is my opinion that we must discern what is acceptable, righteous and Scriptural and not just following plain tradition.

I have met Messianics who use Jewish customs in their praise and worship, and who feel that they should be Jews after accepting Messiah Yahushua. It is quite a romantic notion and although it is natural to have love for His people, it is also potentially disruptive to follow non-Scriptural traditions that have ingrained itself into the culture. What does it really mean to have a culture that is Jewish or one that is Hebrew or one that is neither but in step with Scripture? Growing beards, lighting the menorah, wearing a shawl, reading parashat... is this what make a person a real Yahudym?

There seems to be much to discuss but people tend to move with the familiar and think that since things has been done a particular way for the past 2,000 years then it must be the right way. I beg to differ. I prefer to think that being Jewish or practicing Jewish culture has little to do with Salvation. Oh, sure we try to keep the Commandments, the Feasts, the diet, and perhaps water baptism and even circumcision (especially if you are born a Yahudi) but this does not make us Jewish. It makes us Yahudym.

Quote:
These verses seem to describe the Gentile (gowyum) relationship, abundant affluent, rich, adored and blessed:
Quote:
(Genesis 12:2) - “I will make of you a great, mighty, powerful, and abundant, even affluent nation of people I will kneel down and adore you . ” “I will nurture and magnify through your name. You shall exist as the voice of excellence, as the vow which promotes prosperity and peace, as the oath which blesses.” (Genesis 12:3) - “...and I will recede from, slight, trifle with, and him who curses you.” “And through you all the families and classes of people of the earth shall be adored and blessed’” (Genesis 17:3-4) - “Then ‘Abram fell in His presence, and God spoke to him, saying: ‘Here I Am, look at Me. I have a Covenant Relationship with you. And you shall be a father of exceedingly rich Gentiles.” (Genesis 17:5) - “No longer shall your name be called ‘Abram, but your proper and personal name shall be ‘Abraham. For I have given you the designation of father of the exceedingly rich Gentiles.” (Genesis 17:6) - “I will make you exceedingly fruitful. And I will entrust you to the Gentiles and there will be kingdoms produced because of you.”


Then the verses that describe Abraham’s seed/offspring (zera) relationship, land, blessed and joyous relationship, eternal and everlasting:
Quote:
(Genesis 12:7) - “Then Yahuweh appeared to ‘Abram. He said your seed I give this land. So he built an altar there to Yahuweh who had appeared to him.” (Genesis 15:7) - “Then He affirmed to him, ‘I am Yahuweh who for the purpose of a blessed and joyous relationship asked you to come out of ‘Ur of the Kasdym to give you this land as an inheritance.’” (Genesis 15:13) – “Yahuweh said to ‘Abram, ‘Know and be known. Be aware of and acknowledge that your seed will exist as aliens in a land which isn’t theirs, reduced to servitude there, and they will be afflicted for four-hundred years.” (Genesis 15:14) - “But that Gentile nation which will reduce them to servitude, I will judge. And afterward, they shall come out with important possessions.” (Genesis 15:16) - “And they shall return home here in the fourth generation because indeed the iniquity, perversity, and depravity of the ‘Amoriy is not yet finished or complete.” (Genesis 17:7) - “I will stand up and establish My Covenant Relationship between Me and you, and between Me and your offspring after you in their dwelling places and generations , for an eternal and everlasting Covenant Relationship, existing yesterday, today, and tomorrow on behalf of and according to God and your offspring after you.”


Scripture does seem to prescribe a different Covenant for the gentiles (goyum) and jews (seed) . I would think that messianics would be fall under the gentile and not the jewish promises. Continuing to follow Rabbinical practices would not only not be necessary, it would be affront to Yahweh. How wrong can you be and still be safe in Yah's Book of Life?
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
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Offline Noach  
#20 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2009 7:30:57 AM(UTC)
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I would just like to reaffirm my original post on this discussion:

"I am confused by all of this. Forgive me Shalom82, but this seems like an awful lot of hyperanalyzation. If you are in a covenant relationship with Yahuwah, what part do you have with being a gentile? "Therefore remember that you, once gentiles in the flesh...excluded from the citizenship of Yisra'el and strangers from the covenants of promise...but now in MessiYAH Yahushua you who were once far off have been brought near by the blood of the MessiYAH...so then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the set apart ones and members of the household of Elohim" (Eph. 2:11-19). Seems to me KP, that we are part of the play, not just spectators. We are adopted into the family and are defenitely part of the cast. Yahushua opened the backdoor "cast only" door wide open. All we have to do is walk through it. As a part of the cast, it is important that we play by the script, even more important, because a huge majority of the original cast members are acting out a different play with their own script and no one besides them seems to care."

As much as I respect KP's analysis on this subject, we are definitely not just spectators when it comes to a relationship with Yahuwah. The play has always been open to gentiles who would like to join the cast. And when we do, we are now members of the cast. Most of the original members of the cast ("Jews") continue to act out their own play with their own rules, they wanted to be the director. We don't need to become Jewish because that has never been a prerequisite. Joining the cast has never been about becoming "Jewish", it has always been about joining Yahuwah's family. And since todays "Jews" are acting out a different play, why would you want to join their cast anyway. One day they will realize that their play was never as important or successful as the one they were asked to be in and many will return to the right stage.

Noah
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#21 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:18:14 AM(UTC)
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Noach wrote:
I would just like to reaffirm my original post on this discussion:

"I am confused by all of this. Forgive me Shalom82, but this seems like an awful lot of hyperanalyzation. If you are in a covenant relationship with Yahuwah, what part do you have with being a gentile? "Therefore remember that you, once gentiles in the flesh...excluded from the citizenship of Yisra'el and strangers from the covenants of promise...but now in MessiYAH Yahushua you who were once far off have been brought near by the blood of the MessiYAH...so then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the set apart ones and members of the household of Elohim" (Eph. 2:11-19). Seems to me KP, that we are part of the play, not just spectators. We are adopted into the family and are defenitely part of the cast. Yahushua opened the backdoor "cast only" door wide open. All we have to do is walk through it. As a part of the cast, it is important that we play by the script, even more important, because a huge majority of the original cast members are acting out a different play with their own script and no one besides them seems to care."

As much as I respect KP's analysis on this subject, we are definitely not just spectators when it comes to a relationship with Yahuwah. The play has always been open to gentiles who would like to join the cast. And when we do, we are now members of the cast. Most of the original members of the cast ("Jews") continue to act out their own play with their own rules, they wanted to be the director. We don't need to become Jewish because that has never been a prerequisite. Joining the cast has never been about becoming "Jewish", it has always been about joining Yahuwah's family. And since todays "Jews" are acting out a different play, why would you want to join their cast anyway. One day they will realize that their play was never as important or successful as the one they were asked to be in and many will return to the right stage.

Noah



yea I think I agree with you Noach...

I looked into this a while ago, because of some comments about once gentiles become "believers" they are no longer gentiles...

Other than that I don't really get it, all I know is that I wanna do what my Father wants me to do... I can see what that is from scripture - so im gonna do it as best I can lol

I sometimes feel the whole what am I debat a little like trying to fight for a lable or a definition. All I need to know is that He is my Dad, and I am loved - the rest can flow from there.
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
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Offline kp  
#22 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2009 5:45:50 AM(UTC)
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I never meant to imply that gentiles are to be "just spectators when it comes to a relationship with Yahuwah." Our relationship with our God Himself is personal, interactive, and intimate. But if the symbols of which the Torah's precepts are comprised can be characterized as a "play," then Israel was assigned as the actors and stagehands and the gentiles are assigned as audience members. That's not to say the reality the Torah's symbols represent---the substance that casts the shadows, so to speak---isn't to be the real, concrete foundation of the life of every gentile believer. It's perhaps like a military training film. The cast and crew of the production are Israel, and the audience is the nations. But the point is that we soldiers are to learn from the training film how to wage war in the real world. Our participation in the film is not the point---our ability to apply its lessons is what will be of value when we get to the theater of spiritual conflict.

kp
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Offline Matthew  
#23 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2009 5:46:14 AM(UTC)
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We need to define what it is to be a member of the cast. The question that's bugging everybody is what physical laws (like circumcision) are we to keep and what not. Yes we are members of the family and also play a role, but we don't play the role of physical Israel but rather the role of the adopted children. For example, we play a role in the Feast of Trumpets (the Jews too, but they miss it) and we don't play a role in the Feast of Atonement, yes we'll in spiritual terms see Yahshua as He is but we won't play a part in being physically present on earth during the Tribulation. I frankly don't want to keep the Jewish Festival of Lights or the Jewish New Year (errant as it is) because, firstly, I'm not Jewish, and, secondly, it's not prescribed in Torah for me to "keep".

EDIT:

Note to all: I posted before seeing kp's response. I pretty much agree with his view on the matter.
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Offline Bridget  
#24 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2009 6:28:15 AM(UTC)
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kp #4 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2007 1:04:06 PM


Well said..~
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Offline Noach  
#25 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2009 7:36:55 AM(UTC)
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The problem I have with this whole line of thinking, is that contrary to Christian belief, the term "saved gentile" never appears in Scripture. There is no separate covenant with Gentiles. Gentiles are not called to just sit and watch and pull out the important stuff to perform. Once redeemed by Yahushua, we are full fledged members of the play. There is never any indication in Scripture that those gentiles who chose to join Israel (as the multitude that left Egypt), never had to partake in the precepts of the Torah because they were just gentiles. Those who trusted in Yahuwah (whether gentile or native born by birth) were expected to partake in all of the Torah precepts that Israel was assigned to perform with the exception of a designated few. I can think of only one or two instances where a distinction between native born Israelites and others is designated; the appointed time of Booths being one of them.

What is the difference between this line of thinking and what Christianity promotes? Doesn't Christianity promote a separation between gentile and "Jew", which allows the Christian to not have to do anything remotely "Jewish"? We don't have to perform much of the Torah precepts today because Yahushua's sacrifice fulfilled the reason why they were performed, not because we are "gentiles".

Noah
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Offline edStueart  
#26 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2009 7:49:43 AM(UTC)
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kp wrote:

[snip]
It's perhaps like a military training film. The cast and crew of the production are Israel, and the audience is the nations. But the point is that we soldiers are to learn from the training film how to wage war in the real world. Our participation in the film is not the point---our ability to apply its lessons is what will be of value when we get to the theater of spiritual conflict.


So the question remains, should we show up at the theater in costume, like so many LOTR/Trekkers/Wookies?

Ed-"Still-Trying-To-Find-An-Ecklesia"-Stueart
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
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Offline In His Name  
#27 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2009 7:56:11 AM(UTC)
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Priorities:

1. Salvation. A gift from Yahweh, given based on love and relationship, Not upon law, ritual or symbolism. For me the standard for this is the thief on the cross, who certainly held none of the latter, but was saved in an instant because of the former.

2. Everything else. All else is secondary. While we can have nice discussions to heated debate about everything secondary, it is still secondary.


There is one Covenant, made with Abraham, regarding two peoples. Sera, seed, Jews receive the Promised Land and the relationship with Yahweh... once they recognize Him at the end of the Tribulation. And goyum, gentiles, us, we receive relationship with Yahweh and the riches of Heaven (see my post above}. All of this is due to the relationship that we have with Yahweh, not from legalism. As KP eloquently pointed out above, the Jews were Yah's chosen performers, acting out a drama showing us what not to do, what would not work. Yahshua came to affirm that the Way was through love not law, love first of God, then of man.

That said how can we best show our love, by following the Scriptural laws prescribed by Yahweh in the Torah. These are for his glory and our safety, both are pleasing to him. Is circumcision required, no. Would Yahweh be impressed with the conviction of your relationship if you chose to be circumcised, surely.

Brothers and Sisters of YY thank you for this discussion, it has brought many things together for me and clarified a lot of my uncertainties.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
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Offline Matthew  
#28 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2009 8:01:32 AM(UTC)
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Noach, I'm a little lost from what you're saying. Are you saying that if a gentile believer lives within theocratic Israel they are to partake in the physical laws, for example like having one's ear literally pierced with an awl to a door or doorpost if one desired to remain a servant of a Jew after serving 7 years? If that is the case, what about a saved gentile working for a Jew not living in Israel (in another country), or even in Israel but not in a theocratic state? Sorry if I sound stupid, maybe even blunt and rude. Maybe you have a better example to illustrate your view.
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Offline Noach  
#29 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2009 10:39:19 AM(UTC)
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Matthew,

All I am saying, is that based on Scripture, it is clear to me that if you have chosen to be a part of Yahuwah's family, by accepting His sacrifice, you are no longer seen as a "gentile" from His perspective. I think Pauls pretty clear about this. There is no separation from native born Israelite and non-native born Israelite. Yahushua's sacrifice provided the path and opened the door for all those who trust in Him to become a part of His family. A "gentile" is someone who is not part of His family and is therefore not in a covenant relationship with Yahuwah. It is impossible to be a gentile and a part of Yah's family. I think the proper term is a "oxymoron". An adopted son or daughter is still part of the family (part of the cast).

I am not quite sure how you got your example from my post but I think you may be referring to something very extreme and very different from what I am saying. If you are part of the family you wouldn't be a slave. Being a part of Yah's family has nothing to do with living in Israel or being a believer who lives in theocratic Israel. There are many cases throughout the Old Covenant of Non-native born Israelites becoming a part of Yah's family. They didn't need to be chained to a door or be a servant of a native born Israelite to join the family.

I hope this clears up what I am saying.

Noah
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Offline JamesH  
#30 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2009 11:01:02 AM(UTC)
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Well here is my thought. As it’s been already said we are adopted. We are in Yahweh’s family, we all sit at His table and eat; we come to His special family parties we take his advise on do’s and do not’s. We are new in the family and we are still figuring out how we fit in. We are able to ask our Father questions and our Mother helps us work things out.
I have also noticed that our new saved Jewish brothers and sisters are having the same problem figuring out what to do also. Seams like their earthly family forgot what to do.
So I say to you, ask, and it will given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be open to you. Luke 11:9

Jim
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Offline Matthew  
#31 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2009 11:40:11 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Noach, its making more sense to me.

I think what's actually being discussed in this thread is how we as Gentiles (who have become saved) are to relate to the Torah. Are we to keep the letter of the Law as far as we can, or are we to inwardly observe the Law?

I can understand you saying we are Yahudi and are no longer Gentiles, but my train of thought concerning this thread is how saved-Gentiles (Yahudim) are to observe the Law, hence the reason I listed the piercing of the awl precept. For example, what role (part in the cast) do we play as a Yahudi in regards to the piercing of one's ear to a doorpost or door? I see native Israelites performing this physically in theocratic Israel, and I see myself spiritually keeping this precept by choosing to remain a family member (a slave/servant) of Yahweh.
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Offline RidesWithYah  
#32 Posted : Monday, June 22, 2009 1:30:50 PM(UTC)
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I think I'm with Noah here.
Don't forget who left Egypt and wandered in the wilderness for 40 years.
I read "mixed multitude" as NOT just descendants of Abraham, but others from Egypt as well.
But they became part of Israel -- by attaching and living as He instructed.

Exodus 12:
31And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said.
32Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also.
33And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.
34And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneadingtroughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders.
35And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:
36And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians.
37And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
38And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
39And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual.

Same rules for Passover --
Numbers 9:
14 " 'An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the LORD's Passover must do so in accordance with its rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for the alien and the native-born.' "

And one Torah, native-born Israelite or not:
Numbers 15:
26And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
27And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
28And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
29Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
30But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

I'm thinking, when you have relationship, you are "grafted in", and become part of the play.
But don't forget, the play is there FOR THE AUDIENCE.
Example -- the Sabbath is a sign between Yah and His people. A sign to whom? To the other nations!
We show our love through obedience -- and that's a demonstration, a witness, a light to the gentile world.
http://whattheydontteachyouatchurch.com/
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Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#33 Posted : Monday, June 22, 2009 4:01:23 PM(UTC)
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Shalom friends,

RidesWithYah says;

Quote:
Example -- the Sabbath is a sign between Yah and His people. A sign to whom? To the other nations!


Although I agree that when we observe the Sabbath, it's a witness to the nations of the world, but I would stay with the scriptures, that it's a sign between Yah and the children of Israel (the believers).

Exod.31:13 "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Yahuweh that doth sanctify you."

Exod.31:17 "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days Yahuweh made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."

The law is a shadow (sign) of the things to come. The Sabbath day is to remind us that it was Yahuweh that brought us out of bondage by the strength of his own hand and that he is the one who will give us rest throughout eternity. This sign is between Yahuweh and those that he gives his grace to, the children of Israel (the believers).
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Offline edStueart  
#34 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 3:54:35 AM(UTC)
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RidesWithYah wrote:

I'm thinking, when you have relationship, you are "grafted in", and become part of the play.
But don't forget, the play is there FOR THE AUDIENCE.


So I have to ask again: Are we to show up in costume?

(Beards and hats?)

When I attend a Messianic Congregation, I currently think that I would feel like a "PX Ranger" wearing that stuff.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
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Offline RidesWithYah  
#35 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 4:10:15 PM(UTC)
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I dunno.

I've been reading the mitzvot --
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm --
and praying that Yah will open my eyes to what He's written on my heart.

(I like this version, because it is well footnoted, including which derive from the Talmud rather than the Torah.)

Even though we can't keep them all,
I believe we should keep what we can.
And as others have already said, consider the lessons they were meant to teach.
http://whattheydontteachyouatchurch.com/
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#36 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:47:41 PM(UTC)
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RidesWithYah wrote:
I dunno.

I've been reading the mitzvot --
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm --
and praying that Yah will open my eyes to what He's written on my heart.

(I like this version, because it is well footnoted, including which derive from the Talmud rather than the Torah.)

Even though we can't keep them all,
I believe we should keep what we can.
And as others have already said, consider the lessons they were meant to teach.


yea I wouldn't follow the mitzvot - you could get sucked into its crap, and as Ken has pointed out, for the ones that are not completely fabricated the others translate scripture almost opposite to what it actually says.

You are better off reading through Scripture, and tbh you will find most of the things prescribed you would follow anyway. The only main difference in our culture were the dietary guidelines and feasts.
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Offline edStueart  
#37 Posted : Sunday, September 6, 2009 4:11:44 PM(UTC)
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Let's try this on for size:

A.Did Yahshua/Jesus ever violate, contradict or abolish Torah/Law?
_1.NO!
_2.Only the Messiah could 'walk out', or fully comply with (fulfill) all of the requirements of Torah
_3.Anytime he was accused of violating Torah, He was quick to point out that the religious authorities had missed the point.
B.Does/should/would Sha'ul /Paul ever contradict Messiah Yahshua?
_1.NO!
C.If we find a writing of Sha'ul that seems to contradict something that was said by Yahshua we must choose one of two options:
_1.The contradictory writing of Sha'ul must be discarded
_2.We are misunderstanding the point Sha'ul is trying to make.

Messiah Yahshua said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-20


Yahshua's fulfillment of Torah applies to the sacrificial system. The requirement of sacrifice in order for sins to be forgiven is still in effect, but the requirement has been fulfilled by Yahshua's death. Since the sacrifices described in the Law/Torah no longer have to be carried out, people might think that the Law itself has been abolished (e.g. sacrifice was once required for forgiveness, but is no longer a requirement), but Yahshua explains that he is meeting the requirement, not removing it.

Rather than discarding the writings of Sha'ul as contradictory to the teachings of Yahshua, we would do well to look at Sha'ul's writings in the context of the entirety of the scriptures. If one passage can be interpreted to be contradictory to the principle of keeping or complimentary to the principle of keeping Torah, the more conservative approach would be to choose the interpretation/translation that matches with the rest of the scriptures.

Indeed, Sha'ul said in his letter to the Romans: “Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah!” Romans 3:31

Neither Yahshua nor Sha'ul is striking down Torah. They both confirm the true (not the hyper-legalistic) Torah, which is, first, last and always a matter of the heart.


"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
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Offline RidesWithYah  
#38 Posted : Monday, September 7, 2009 1:13:31 AM(UTC)
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I've run into a lot of folks who can't point to Messiah abolishing the Torah,
but claim Paul did (?).
To show them they're wrong about Paul, I use Acts and 2 Peter 3. (Please pardon my KJV)

2Peter3:13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Acts 21: 17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
http://whattheydontteachyouatchurch.com/
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Offline bitnet  
#39 Posted : Wednesday, September 9, 2009 11:58:31 PM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Ditto with ed and RWY! If there is an apparent conflict, we have to recheck the context of Paulus's writings and see if it is (a) a bad translation, (b) his opinion or (c) our clouded mindset. Brother Paulus has much more insight into the Truth than almost any of us so we should give him the benefit of the doubt if we are to gain from his writings. Of course, he probably never thought that his letters would be bound to Scripture!
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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Offline Y.I.K.  
#40 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2009 5:19:53 PM(UTC)
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The following website, found here presents the best case I have seen by a christian in regards to keeping or not keeping the Sabbath and Torah. Any thoughts?
Truth is like sandpaper. When you run across it, it can do one of 2 things: grind you down into nothing, or polish and refine you.
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Offline Y.I.K.  
#41 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2009 5:37:12 PM(UTC)
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With the intent of double checking what I just posted, and having a short amount of time to do so, I looked up one of the verses, Ephesians 2:14, cited as evidence of the Law no longer applying, and am reaching a further question(s). Here is the verse and some surrounding context according to the NLT:

11Don’t forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called “uncircumcised heathens” by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts. 12 In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. 13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.
14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. 15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. 16 Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.

17 He brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and peace to the Jews who were near. 18 Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us.

That, at least to me, appears to be saying that the Law no longer applies. This presents itself with at least 2 problems:

Yahushua didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. Also, I know english translations... could be better... so is this THE Law its talking about, or is this speaking about the "law" the way the Pharicees etc. saw it? I also looked it up on Swalchy's website, and am still unclear as to whether by law it is meant Torah, or something else. The Ephesians page is here.

So whats going on here?

Truth is like sandpaper. When you run across it, it can do one of 2 things: grind you down into nothing, or polish and refine you.
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#42 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2009 12:13:30 AM(UTC)
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Although I do not have time atm to look though it all - I will - but the what we first must do is step back and see who Paul was writing to, from where and if we can why. I can see, thanks to swalchy's notes, that there are quite a few changes around here, mainly because its talking about "The Law" - and magically words seem to be removed and added as soon as you start encroaching on Christian doctrine.

We now have to ask - what does Yahuweh say about his Torah, well we know He is quite pro, also that Yahushua as you have stated said he did not come to abolish or remove even the smallest...

So then we have to then think, even without looking at the Greek it seems Paul is contradicting what Yahushua said in that huge statement He made. So do we trust Paul, or do we trust Yahushua?

Looking into the Greek, I have not got time atm, and I'm not very fast at it - but here is swalchy's amplification:

Quote:

Therefore, for this reason and for this purpose, remember and be mindful of, recall and keep in mind that concerning this, once and formerly in a previous time you Gentile nations and races by flesh, those said and taught, maintained and advised, directed and affirmed, exhorted and pointed out as "the Uncircumcision" by those said and taught, maintained and advised, directed and affirmed, exhorted and pointed out as "the circumcision" made and brought about in the flesh by the hands of men, concerning that you were and once existed at that one certain age, season and time as separate from and without, apart from, independent from and without a relationship with Messiah*, estranged and excluded, alienated and shut out from the state, citizenship and commonwealth of Yisra'el*, those that strive with the Supreme One, and strangers and foreigners, aliens and those without a share in the covenants and agreements, treaties and testaments, dispositions and arrangements, compacts and contracts of the promise and gracious pledge, offer and vow, not having or holding, owning or possessing, obtaining or gaining, acquiring or receiving the hope, the expectation, confidence and trust in the future prospect of salvation and without and neglectful of the Supreme One, without a relationship with the Supreme One and without any sort of reason in, by and with the world and cosmos, the entire realm of man. But nevertheless, now, at this present time, in, by and with Messiah* Yahushua*, you who once and formerly in a previous time used to be and exist far away and a long way off came to be and became established, arrived and were brought near and close at hand in, by and with the life-blood of Messiah*. For He Himself is our exemption from chaos, our peace and tranquillity, harmony and concord, security and safety, prosperity and freedom, felicity and our assurance of salvation, He who made and created, formed and produced, appointed and ordained, prepared and constituted, manufactured and established, accomplished and caused both us and you to be One, and He who has loosened and unbound, annulled and dismissed, released and broken down, destroyed and abolished, dispersed and invalidated the partition, obstacle and dividing wall of the hedge, wall and fence that separates and prevents people from joining together, having destroyed and abolished, invalidated and put an end to, rendered useless and ineffective, idle and inactive, severed and terminated in, by and with His flesh the enmity, hostility and hatred created by this law and commandment, custom and rule, tradition and order, statue and ordinance of charges and precepts, injunctions and prescribed rules, mandates and orders, regulations and commissions, so that and in order that in, by and with Himself He might create and produce, form and make the two into one common man*, making and executing, producing and performing, constructing and forming, keeping and establishing, accomplishing and bringing about exemption from chaos, this being peace and tranquillity, harmony and concord, security and safety, prosperity and freedom, felicity and the assurance of salvation, and so He might completely reconcile and bring both us and you together to God* in, by and with one body and physical presence through the means of and on the grounds of, on account of and for the reason of, on the basis of and because of the upright stake*, having separated and terminated, destroyed and extinguished, segregated and done away with, abolished and put the enmity, hostility and hatred to death and caused it to perish in Himself. “And He came and arrived, arose and appeared to declare and proclaim, bring and tell, announce and communicate exemption from chaos, this being peace and tranquillity, harmony and concord, security and safety, prosperity and freedom, felicity and the assurance of salvation to you who were far away and a long way off and exemption from chaos, this being peace and tranquillity, harmony and concord, security and safety, prosperity and freedom, felicity and the assurance of salvation to those who were near and at hand,” * for concerning this, through the means of and on the grounds of, on account of and for the reason of, on the basis of and because of Him both us and you have and hold, obtain and gain, acquire and receive, own and posses in, by and with one Spirit* the access and privilege to have a relationship with the Father*.


What is interesting is this leads directly on to Yahushua as the Cornerstone - and a simple game of join the dots reveals quite a lot here...

Who is Yahushua? The Word, which is also the Cornerstone or Foundation - the most important stone in the building. The Word is Torah. Its all connected. So saying that the Messiah removed the Torah, is basically saying that He removed Himself.

Also it needs to be noted that we are told to Understand and Acknowledge Torah, rather than keep it as a strict set of rules. We do keep it as best we can to a) set ourself's apart visibly, symbolising our spiritual separation from the Word and our joining with Yahuweh, b) Because we love our Father and He gave us them not only for our understanding, but blessing. c) I just lost my train of thought because of my son... lol

Anyway Paul is either wrong or God is. Or the translation has been tampered with and Paul's point lost because of context being removed. Paul likes to write long sentences to make a point, he also seems to have a sarcastic streak, so verses and chapters - which were never in the original text or even the copies, really play havoc with the context too.

I have babbled on enough without making any real attempt at "disproving" that ridiculous site lol
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Offline RidesWithYah  
#43 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2009 3:02:28 AM(UTC)
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Have you ever heard of a law being done away with, as the result of a prisoner completing his sentence for violating it?

Quote:
severed and terminated in, by and with His flesh the enmity, hostility and hatred created by this law...
segregated and done away with, abolished and put the enmity, hostility and hatred to death and caused it to perish in Himself.


He did away with the enmity, hostility, and hatred; not the Torah.

Think of the "nailed it to the cross" line this way --
when criminals were executed by crucifixion, the Crime they committed was written and nailed above their heads.
Doing this reflected that the Debt (created by violating the Law) was being paid for by execution.
This is EXACTLY what Paul is saying -- our debt is "Paid in Full" by MessiYah's execution.
(And the writing above his head was "This is Yahushua of Nazareth, King of the Jews", in several languages...)

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