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Offline shalom82  
#51 Posted : Thursday, July 24, 2008 5:09:09 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Joh 2:15 And having made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the Set-apart Place, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the moneychangers’ coins and overturned the tables.
Joh 2:16 And He said to those selling doves, “Take these away! Do not make the house of My Father a house of merchandise!”
Joh 2:17 And His taught ones remembered that it was written, “The ardour for Your house has eaten Me up.”
Joh 2:18 And the Yehuḏim answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You are doing these?”
Joh 2:19 יהושע answered and said to them, “Destroy this Dwelling Place, and in three days I shall raise it.”
Joh 2:20 Then the Yehuḏim said, “It took forty-six years to build this Dwelling Place, and You are going to raise it in three days?”
Joh 2:21 But He spoke about the Dwelling Place of His body.
Joh 2:22 So, when He was raised from the dead, His taught ones remembered that He said this to them. And they believed the Scripture and the word which יהושע had said.

Once again, Who is doing the raising up?



YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline shalom82  
#52 Posted : Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:37:55 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Here's another one:

Mic 5:2 “But you, Bĕyth Leḥem Ephrathah, you who are little among the clans of Yehuḏah, out of you shall come forth to Me the One to become Ruler in Yisra’ĕl. And His comings forth1 are of old, from everlasting.” Footnote:

From the Hebrew you could say: His appearances and emergences, (*His*) comings and goings are from the ancient times....: You can check and correct me but I believe that is a fair rendering of the passage
I added the 2nd his to give it a better flow...for the sake of honesty
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline kp  
#53 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 4:38:29 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Frank wrote:
Quote:
Father Yahweh did not die! His son Yahshua died by means of execution. This fact in itself proves that Yahshua is not his Father Yahweh. It is quite impossible for mere men to execute Father Yahweh!

There are two things you don't understand, my friend, and they're throwing off your perceptions on the matter. First, being called the "Son" of God is a metaphor---it doesn't mean that Yahshua came one generation after Yahweh. He's not a "second generation" deity. Being a "son" implied (to every society but our own) that Yahshua represented Yahweh among men; He performed the function of a son as described in Psalm 127: "Behold, children are a heritage from Yahweh, the fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one’s youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them; they shall not be ashamed, but shall speak with their enemies in the gate." Please get beyond the biological connotation of the word "son" and come to understand the societal implications, for they are the key to understanding this.

Second, you don't understand what death is. It is not destruction or the ceasing of all life functions, necessarily. Technically, death is merely the separation of the soul (the nephesh) from the body. When Yahweh fulfilled the "coming Prophet" promise of Deuteronomy 18:15-19 in Yahshua, His purpose, though left unstated, was to walk among His people in a form that didn't terrify them, just as they had requested. So He manifested Himself in human form for a season. Since Yahweh is omnipresent in space-time (as far as we can understand these terms), the "Son" did not contain all there was of Him, but what there was of Him in human form was indeed "Immanuel," God with us. In this form, however, it was possible for the soul to be separated from the body, leaving the body lifeless---dead. But the body isn't the whole entity. To be whole, a person (even the Person of the Messiah) has to have a body (a corporeal entity), soul (that which animates the body), and a living, eternal spirit that makes the soul alive. You are right about one thing, Frank. It is not possible for mere men to execute Yahweh. However (and this is of crucial importance) it is possible for Yahweh to voluntarily give up His life, in the sense of allowing the body and soul He inhabited when Yahshua walked the earth to be separated from one another. No man can take His life, but it is His prerogative to lay it down on our behalf.

As so often happens, the problem is not God's truth, but the medium by which that truth must be transmitted---human language, words.

kp
User is suspended until 5/13/2282 1:33:02 PM(UTC) Frank4YAHWEH  
#54 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 8:48:27 AM(UTC)
Frank4YAHWEH
Joined: 10/16/2007(UTC)
Posts: 26
Man
Location: Richmond, Indiana

Robskiwarrior wrote:


Then how do you describe Him stating that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beggining and the end the First and the Last... And then say that He was once dead...

Revelation 1:17-18
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Any explinations?


MAYBE Yahweh WAS Yahushua... Maybe you are just unwilling to except the fact that this is true? I mean, all your arguments hold no water. The evidence is there, in swalchys post with the greek and in many other scripture references... even in Garretts post.

Yahweh is bigger than us, even bigger than our minds. And yes it might be hard to accept that there is a possibilty that He might beable to manage this obviously impossible to us act - but all the actual REAL evidence points to the fact that Yahushua WAS Yahweh in the flesh.

He is the begining and the end, the first and the last, the alpha and the omega.


Yahshua never stated that he was the Alpha and the Omega! Yahshua the Messiah the son of the Living Yahweh died, not Father Yahweh!

Revelation 1: 8 in the King James Version says, “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.” This verse referring to God as the “Alpha and Omega” does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated that the “oldest MSS. omit” it. [1]

Though many commentators and dictionaries apply this title both to God and to Christ such need not be the case. [2] Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: "It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here... There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such." However, most Christian denominations teach that it does apply to Jesus and God.
SOURCE

THE FIRST AND THE LAST By Ivan Maddox West End Bible Fellowship Atlanta, Georgia

Edited by user Friday, July 25, 2008 11:20:33 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

[ALL] Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH[WEH]!" Yahshua Gave All Esteem [Glory] To Father Yahweh (Yahchanan [John] 3:34; 4:26; 5:19,30; 7:16,18,28, 8:17,18,28,42,50; 12:47-50; 14:24; 17:8; Mattithyah [Matthew] 20:23; 26:39; Acts 3:22,26). To Believe "Jesus Is God" Is To Be Deceived! http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm
User is suspended until 5/13/2282 1:33:02 PM(UTC) Frank4YAHWEH  
#55 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 8:52:08 AM(UTC)
Frank4YAHWEH
Joined: 10/16/2007(UTC)
Posts: 26
Man
Location: Richmond, Indiana

kp wrote:


There are two things you don't understand, my friend, and they're throwing off your perceptions on the matter. First, being called the "Son" of God is a metaphor---it doesn't mean that Yahshua came one generation after Yahweh. He's not a "second generation" deity. Being a "son" implied (to every society but our own) that Yahshua represented Yahweh among men; He performed the function of a son as described in Psalm 127: "Behold, children are a heritage from Yahweh, the fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one’s youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them; they shall not be ashamed, but shall speak with their enemies in the gate." Please get beyond the biological connotation of the word "son" and come to understand the societal implications, for they are the key to understanding this.

Second, you don't understand what death is. It is not destruction or the ceasing of all life functions, necessarily. Technically, death is merely the separation of the soul (the nephesh) from the body. When Yahweh fulfilled the "coming Prophet" promise of Deuteronomy 18:15-19 in Yahshua, His purpose, though left unstated, was to walk among His people in a form that didn't terrify them, just as they had requested. So He manifested Himself in human form for a season. Since Yahweh is omnipresent in space-time (as far as we can understand these terms), the "Son" did not contain all there was of Him, but what there was of Him in human form was indeed "Immanuel," God with us. In this form, however, it was possible for the soul to be separated from the body, leaving the body lifeless---dead. But the body isn't the whole entity. To be whole, a person (even the Person of the Messiah) has to have a body (a corporeal entity), soul (that which animates the body), and a living, eternal spirit that makes the soul alive. You are right about one thing, Frank. It is not possible for mere men to execute Yahweh. However (and this is of crucial importance) it is possible for Yahweh to voluntarily give up His life, in the sense of allowing the body and soul He inhabited when Yahshua walked the earth to be separated from one another. No man can take His life, but it is His prerogative to lay it down on our behalf.

As so often happens, the problem is not God's truth, but the medium by which that truth must be transmitted---human language, words.

kp


This is not a teaching from Scripture. These are certianly not words of explaination of Yahshua's sonship that have proceeded from the mouth of Yahweh that we are to live by!

The soul that sins shall surely die!

Hebrews 2:9—
But we see Yahshua, who also was made a little lower than the malakim, crowned with glory and honor because of His having suffered death, in order that He, through the love of Yahweh, might taste death for everyone.

kp wrote:
As so often happens, the problem is not God's truth, but the medium by which that truth must be transmitted---human language, words.


Hmm! Then I wonder way it was transmitted in such a manner? I am being sarcastic of course!

Edited by user Friday, July 25, 2008 11:07:13 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

[ALL] Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH[WEH]!" Yahshua Gave All Esteem [Glory] To Father Yahweh (Yahchanan [John] 3:34; 4:26; 5:19,30; 7:16,18,28, 8:17,18,28,42,50; 12:47-50; 14:24; 17:8; Mattithyah [Matthew] 20:23; 26:39; Acts 3:22,26). To Believe "Jesus Is God" Is To Be Deceived! http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm
User is suspended until 5/13/2282 1:33:02 PM(UTC) Frank4YAHWEH  
#56 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 8:58:16 AM(UTC)
Frank4YAHWEH
Joined: 10/16/2007(UTC)
Posts: 26
Man
Location: Richmond, Indiana

shalom82 wrote:
Joh 2:15 And having made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the Set-apart Place, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the moneychangers’ coins and overturned the tables.
Joh 2:16 And He said to those selling doves, “Take these away! Do not make the house of My Father a house of merchandise!”
Joh 2:17 And His taught ones remembered that it was written, “The ardour for Your house has eaten Me up.”
Joh 2:18 And the Yehuḏim answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You are doing these?”
Joh 2:19 יהושע answered and said to them, “Destroy this Dwelling Place, and in three days I shall raise it.”
Joh 2:20 Then the Yehuḏim said, “It took forty-six years to build this Dwelling Place, and You are going to raise it in three days?”
Joh 2:21 But He spoke about the Dwelling Place of His body.
Joh 2:22 So, when He was raised from the dead, His taught ones remembered that He said this to them. And they believed the Scripture and the word which יהושע had said.

Once again, Who is doing the raising up?


I believe I have already answered this in a previous post. Pay attention, would you?

Romans 8:11 & 10:9 Colossians 2:12; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Acts 17:31; 1 Thessolonians 1:10; 2 Timothy 2:8

Romans 10:9 clearly says that you must believe in your heart that Yahweh raised Yahshua from the dead and you must confess Yahshua with your mouth. Yahshua means 'Yahweh Is Redeemer' It is redemption by Yahweh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) Yahshua.

Did Yahshua Raise Himself From The Dead? A Restoration Light Publication

DID JESUS CHRIST RAISE HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD? By Ivan Maddox - Atlanta, GA


Edited by user Friday, July 25, 2008 10:30:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

[ALL] Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH[WEH]!" Yahshua Gave All Esteem [Glory] To Father Yahweh (Yahchanan [John] 3:34; 4:26; 5:19,30; 7:16,18,28, 8:17,18,28,42,50; 12:47-50; 14:24; 17:8; Mattithyah [Matthew] 20:23; 26:39; Acts 3:22,26). To Believe "Jesus Is God" Is To Be Deceived! http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm
Offline shalom82  
#57 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 9:20:27 AM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
"Pay attention would you...."

Robski was not referring to 1:8 at all...rather 1:17-18

This has protos kai eschatos...The first and the last...

Alpha and Omega aren't even in the discussion

Edited by user Friday, July 25, 2008 1:03:33 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
User is suspended until 5/13/2282 1:33:02 PM(UTC) Frank4YAHWEH  
#58 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 9:25:25 AM(UTC)
Frank4YAHWEH
Joined: 10/16/2007(UTC)
Posts: 26
Man
Location: Richmond, Indiana

shalom82 wrote:
"Pay attention would you...."

Robski was not referring to 1:8 at all...rather 1:17-18

This has protos kai eschatos

Alpha and Omega aren't even in the discussion


Robskiwarrior wrote:
Then how do you describe Him stating that He is the Alpha and the Omega


You have missed the point completely! Why don't you pay attention and let Robskiwarrior speak for himself? You have yet to clear up the contradictions that you have made in your own posts.
[ALL] Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH[WEH]!" Yahshua Gave All Esteem [Glory] To Father Yahweh (Yahchanan [John] 3:34; 4:26; 5:19,30; 7:16,18,28, 8:17,18,28,42,50; 12:47-50; 14:24; 17:8; Mattithyah [Matthew] 20:23; 26:39; Acts 3:22,26). To Believe "Jesus Is God" Is To Be Deceived! http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm
Offline shalom82  
#59 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 11:18:03 AM(UTC)
shalom82
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Frank,
Honestly, I am done with you and I wouldn't be surprised if that is how most feel. Obviously this is not where you belong. This is basically an online congregation and fellowship for like-minded people. I can only speak for myself, but this has never been about convincing you that Yahushua was and is a pre-existent manifestation of YHWH or to put it bluntly YHWH exists as Yahushua. The reason that I think most of us even got involved in this endeavor is to show where we are coming from...that the consensus of the forum believes. I knew a couple of posts in that there was basically no possible way to convince you of our belief. You require a such a solid affirmation as to make all choice and seeking impossible. We (however you may feel about YHWH) do not believe that He operates in that way. You accuse us of embellishing, unsound exegesis, being unscriptual, missing the point, taking things out of context, not understanding original grammar and a myriad of other charges that you have leveled. Why would you want to be around such a worthless and fruitless body of people? I don't consider that to be our job here at the YY forum to convince those who don't see eye to eye with us on a consistant basis on such formative issues. The post has served us well in knowing that we are united in what we are overwhelminingly convinced is truth. It has served us in the regard that you do not see this truth. It should have served you well also in knowing for certain what you believe. In all sincerity and kindness I say this. I don't believe this is the place for you. There are other congregations that are physical and on the internet that see things the way you do. It is now quite obvious that this whole debate is becoming contentious and mean spirited. Before it gets to a point where we are trying to get at each other rather than discern truth...I wish that all of us would disengage. It's becoming a distraction. You must understand that this forum really serves as a congregation for those of us in the world that have no physical place for worship, fellowship, discussion, and edification. Congregations need to have shalom, harmony and general agreement and concurrence. I am not talking about lock step group think, we freely debate and disagree and find common ground on the finer points, but the formative issues must be agreed upon. You are not contributing to that purpose here. Obviously you have not been satisfied with our answers...which as I said were not given to convince you but rather to make you understand why we believe what we believe. You can rest assured that we have been very unsatisfied with your ideas about context, grammar, allusions, and purposes...you should know beyond any shadow of a doubt that we are have not been satisfied with your retorts and have waited for for answers on many issues that have not been adressed. In that respect we have finally found some common ground. We don't agree, we think the other is being unscriptual, and as it seems...we never will agree. What I say next, I say in sincerity with as much empathy as I can, but I am sure you will take it to be an insult, I hope you will take me at my word. Once a person denies Messiah's divinity, they are usually (in overwhelming regularity) starting a process in which they finally deny the Messiahship altogether and usually join either the Orthodox or the Karaites. I personally have seen this happen on several occasions and I have heard the report of where it has happened in the larger world of Messianism. Many of your arguments whether directly or indirectly whether in knowledge or in ignorance are from the anti-missionaries. Their goal is not just to convince people that Yahushua is not Elohim...their goal is that people will eventually disavow his Messianic role. You are already using their arguments so I don't know why you wouldn't be in danger of that. For me I knew and know that I won't convince you. You by this point should know the same of me. I am no longer going to involve myself in this debate. It has served it's purpose for all involved. We believe in the divinity of Yahushua....We believe in the figurative meaning of Son of God that by all evidence the Yahudim of Yahushua's time took it to mean and that Yahushua never felt compelled to correct. You don't. You don't believe in His divinity and believe terms in a hyper literal sense. As for me the discussion is over, it is time for us to embrace our respective families and live in unity with them. I wish you the best.

Shalom82
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
User is suspended until 5/13/2282 1:33:02 PM(UTC) Frank4YAHWEH  
#60 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 11:24:32 AM(UTC)
Frank4YAHWEH
Joined: 10/16/2007(UTC)
Posts: 26
Man
Location: Richmond, Indiana

shalom82 wrote:
Frank,
Honestly, I am done with you ...


Praise Yahweh for that! I was growing tired of your speaking for others and myself when it is obvious that you cannot even speak for yourself and what it is that you believe!
[ALL] Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH[WEH]!" Yahshua Gave All Esteem [Glory] To Father Yahweh (Yahchanan [John] 3:34; 4:26; 5:19,30; 7:16,18,28, 8:17,18,28,42,50; 12:47-50; 14:24; 17:8; Mattithyah [Matthew] 20:23; 26:39; Acts 3:22,26). To Believe "Jesus Is God" Is To Be Deceived! http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm
User is suspended until 5/13/2282 1:33:02 PM(UTC) Frank4YAHWEH  
#61 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 11:31:39 AM(UTC)
Frank4YAHWEH
Joined: 10/16/2007(UTC)
Posts: 26
Man
Location: Richmond, Indiana

shalom82 wrote:
How funny that I was right that you would take my last message as some kind of victory in your personal crusade against the people of this forum.


SORRY! You are dead wrong again!

Well, you are not being very honest when you say you are done with me! I do not take some kind of "victory in ['your personal crusade'] {in coming} against the people of this forum." Again, I wish you would stop speaking for others and I.
[ALL] Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH[WEH]!" Yahshua Gave All Esteem [Glory] To Father Yahweh (Yahchanan [John] 3:34; 4:26; 5:19,30; 7:16,18,28, 8:17,18,28,42,50; 12:47-50; 14:24; 17:8; Mattithyah [Matthew] 20:23; 26:39; Acts 3:22,26). To Believe "Jesus Is God" Is To Be Deceived! http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm
Offline shalom82  
#62 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 1:07:37 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
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Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
I admit that I wrote this:

Quote:
How funny that I was right that you would take my last message as some kind of victory in your personal crusade against the people of this forum.


It was a stupid error in judgement and I thought better of it a couple of minutes after I posted it. I quickly deleted it, after an accusation of my conscious, obviously not quickly enough. I apologize. I honestly do wish you the best, Frank as I said before.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline YAH is my FATHER  
#63 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 1:39:18 PM(UTC)
YAH is my FATHER
Joined: 7/14/2008(UTC)
Posts: 95
Man
Location: Somewhere Poetic

I have been following this thread quite intently, and even posted a few times, rather unsuccessfully it would seem. In the end, as the tensions appear to be settling into some kind of uneasy truce, I now feel a need to enter again with a spanner to throw into the works, which I pray isn't going to make the thing flare up again, but rather bring about a little lateral and thoughtful consideration - to whomever is not so set-in-concrete on their respective determination.

For mine, throughout this discussion and particularly my interest in it, something has made itself abundantly known that might shock one or two of the readers, and it goes a little like this;

Frank's position and the opposing, are both correct and at the same time; both in error, for it is not the answers that have been presenting from either side that are right or wrong, but rather the questions that are being asked in the process. Please allow me to explain in shorthand, which admittedly may seem little more than an irritation right now; yet with the assurance, provided I am permitted to do so, that I intend in the next day or two; to commence a thread, which will explain what I mean in much finer detail. It will be entitled "Heaven, earth and Messiah', and I will post a link to it here (if possible) once the initial introduction is posted. However, as the subject matter is so complex, I will be attempting to expand on the thing over perhaps a week or two of further posting.

In short it goes something like this: When Yahshua was born, he was indeed a human being like any and all of us - born in the old fashioned manner through a sexual interaction between a man (his dad) and a woman (his mother), however he was truly ear-marked in a blessed manner as the future king, in a similar blessing as King David - his predecessor. So on that point, I am in agreement (I suspect) with Frank's position.

Now, in the process of things for Yahshua, something truly awesome eventuated, when he actually BECAME Messiah, which as an entity; is nothing less than entirely divine, as being - directly from his Eternal FATHER YAH. So he was originally born of his natural parents, but just prior to his ministry, took on a divine nature, when that thing that appeared as a dove from heaven descended upon him, apparently after his baptism. So he then, at that point was re-born of heavenly PARENT, which is why he always spoke of 'my FATHER - in heaven', but would often NOT share this parentage with anyone else, as in 'our FATHER', except for what has been called The Lord's Prayer - which means that this prayer has to be identified with any and all - as like himself - having undergone a (so to speak) re-parenting to now belong, rather than to 'earth' (earthly parents) as previously - but surely now ascended - to 'heavenly'.

In any case the argument that whether Yahshua was 'divine', or Messiah was 'human', for mine, appears to come about through the error of both sides in seeing the two as entirely inseparable - which they never were. Yahshua WAS fully human, yet Messiah IS fully divine. So the argument between these two sides, is all about the incorrect question rather than correct/incorrect answers. So how did the question become so much in error, leading to answers that never fully satisfy?

Well I believe that this is what Rev. 12:16 actually refers to; "But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth." This is all about how this truth has been hidden (in the earth) for 2000 years - until being revealed to us right now in this forum. So this is about that 'body of Messiah' that Paul wrote so much about, and I am expecting that we will eventually find - together; that it is not what we have been, until now bargaining upon.

As stated above, this will all be explained in far greater detail via the 'Heaven, earth and Messiah' thread, however (again in short), it came about through the Council of Nicaea, convoked by Constantine in 325, which adopted in it's newly voted upon manner - for the rest of us ever since to embrace - a previous incorrect Jewish assumption upon who/what Messiah actually was, which has had the rest of Christianity and others running around ever since under an entirely incorrect assumption - that Messiah is a one-man-band savior for the rest of us - as remaining under a fallen parentage. However 'Messiah' is NOT and never was a one man show at all.

So you see, it isn't the answers from Frank and/or the opposing faction, which seems to be in the greater numbers here, that are to blame for the heat among the conscientious, determined and focused servants of THE ETERNAL FATHER, for passion in that direction is indeed a blessing. Rather, it is an essentially incorrect assumption by all that is to blame. So provided we can all exercise a little patience, it is my earnest prayer and expectation that we can, as a united community - move out from under 'the earth' and into the sunlight of our ETERNAL FATHER, blessed with an entirely new freedom and vigor to accomplish the commission of living as entirely - HIS SON (or DAUGHTER) - in the true and eternal BODY of MESIAH.

Grace and peace to all.


"So knowledge isn't the main measure, love of Yah and of each other is."


Offline Garrett  
#64 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 1:54:17 PM(UTC)
Garrett
Joined: 1/28/2008(UTC)
Posts: 41
Location: Idaho

Well said shalom82.
But I would actually like to thank Frank. He has contributed, in a sense. You see, I believe Avinu Malkenu YHWH allows our faith and our understanding to be tested. That is a way in which He grows us up and makes us stronger. It is also how He weeds out the chaff. Being a part of this dialogue has forced me to dive even deeper. Not only have I learned more from my brothers here, I have gone back to His Word to see what He would have me to know. I am not implying that Frank is a brother or that he is iron that sharpens my iron. But I am saying that anytime we are forced to really dive deep (and if we really are His) we will inevitably come up stronger. Kind of like pruning a tree and the increased fruit that results.

Thank you Frank. Because of the challenge you have posed here, I am now even more convinced that: Yahshua is the Right Arm of YHWY. That He is indeed the physical manifestation of the eternal Yah. That no mere man could pay the price for my transgression. That the "Goel" must have the right to redeem and no sinful man could be my goel (or go-al). Frank, you have better prepared me for the battle to come and I truly am grateful.

I do have to confess something though. I checked out your links (and did a little more research). I realized early on that you did not come here seeking the truth. You did not come here to grow and learn. You came here with and agenda.
After many years of prideful stubbornness, I have found that I can only learn when I am humble and willing to acknowledge that I do not have all the answers. YHWH has blessed some with the understanding and the calling of moreh (teacher). I believe there are men on these boards who have been called to such and endeavor.

That said, I didn't just trust and believe the things being taught by Ken and Yada. I checked them out. I did a little research on my own. While there are still somethings I don't completely understand (and am not willing to accept on blind faith). What I will say about these men (and others on this board) is this:

They ohev YHWH b-chol l'vavcha u-v-chol naf'sh'cha u-v-chol m'odecha. And they take it one step further. They ohev l'recha, ka'omocha (They love YHWH with all their heart, soul and might... and they love people more than themselves). They are not here to make a buck...trust me, I have tried to buy their publications and they won't sell them to me.
I have verified 98% of what I have learned here and it all lines up. These guys spend the time (and apparently the $$) to make sure that they are teaching truth.

I also checked them out (on a personal level)...I wanted to make sure that I am learning from men of honor and integrity. I needed to make sure that they aren't just a couple of fringe yokels that are out there spouting their own opinions. These boys study, and do a ton of research.

Now (and please take this in the spirit by which it is meant) I have done the same in regards to you. Please don't get your pride up here and please know that I am not trying to offend you. What I have found is a divorced guy in his early 50's that has a manual labor job in Indiana. I'm not saying that a true teacher must have an MDIV from Dallas theological Seminary (actually I would be less likely to trust that guy). But it appears that you have no training and are not willing to reveal much about how you have come to be so enlightened (wink).

I am also not saying that YHWH only chooses those who have lived unblemished lives. What I am saying is that we are not to be thrown around by every new "revelation" that some guy on the internet tries to cram down our throats. Especially when it requires the type of textual gymnastics that you have demonstrated here.

You seem like a guy that is so adamant that you are right, that you aren't even willing to trust what the scriptures clearly say. You seem (and I am just guessing, here) stubborn, bored, and maybe a little lonely.

Frank, at some point you have to be willing to trust YHWH. You can't manipulate the text in order to make it line up with your beliefs. What verses are you willing to trust? No, YHWH is omnipotent and He has preserved His truth for those who desire to seek Him out. And you have to take it all, or leave it all. He said there is "no cutting and pasting allowed" (I'm paraphrasing).
I have had JWs and Mormons come to my door, and after spending hours showing them the fallacy of their religious systems, they were still just as stubborn and blind as they were when they came. Some people have chosen to believe what they want to and they don't want to be confused with the facts/truth. This goes for "Christians" especially.

Lest you accuse me of doing the same thing, I will tell you that I graduated from Chico State University in northern California with a BS in business. I say that so you will know that I am the product of the public school and state university system. I was a committed atheist and evolutionist. Until I was challenged to look into the reliability of the scriptures. I was again challenged to look into the plausibility of the Darwinian model. And I was humble enough to open my mind and my heart.

Later, as an "Evangelical Sunday worshiping, Protestant, Christian" I was challenged to look into some of the teachings and practices of the church. Again, I was humble and open to the truth...and I walked away from pagan Christianity, and into a deeper walk with YHWH.

Frank, you seem to like to cut and paste canned responses from anti-missionary websites and other authors on the internet. So, in keeping with that tradition I figured you may be interested to know that even the Kabbalists acknowledge the word Echad implies a "compound unity" when referring to YHWH. Of course they deny Yahshua as the promised Mashiyach and are forced to make erroneous conclusions as to what that unity entails. It is often said that if you won't accept the truth, you will accept anything in its place. The Kabbalists also fully assert that Yachid clearly denotes "The Single One" or absolute singular. Here is a quote from inner.org a Kabbalah website:

In general, the level of Echad is the secret of God's Essential Name Havayah--the Name that reveals (to Himself) His very Essence--before the beginning of Creation."Here O' Israel Havayah is our God Havayah is One." Our sages teach us that "One" refers to God's true and absolute unity within His Creation. Here, the level of Echad represents the ultimate origin of this unity before Creation.
In Kabbalah we are taught that the four words "Havayah is our God Havayah is One" correspond to the four letters of God's Essential Name Havayah. The first two words, "Havayah is our God," correspond to the higher union of the first two letters of Havayah--yud hei--"the concealed things are to Havayah our God." The following two words, "Havayah is One," correspond to the lower union of the second two letters of Havayah--vav hei--the revealed things are to us and our children."
The higher union is that of the sha'ashuim atzmi'im, which possess in themselves two levels corresponding to the two letters yud hei (as will be described). The lower union is that of the two levels of aliat ha'ratzon and ana emloch corresponding to the two letters vav hei (to be described).


Echad: http://www.inner.org/worlds/echad.htm
Yachid: http://www.inner.org/worlds/yachid.htm

If even those who deny Mashiyach acknowledge the compound unity implied in the word echad, it’s going to be a real task to demonstrate otherwise.

You seem to trust that because someone included the Hebraic term echad in parentheses (echad) wherever the English word "one" is used that Echad must denote an absolute singularity. I suggest you dive a bit deeper. When YHWH commands Avraham to sacrifice his "only son" Yitzchak, the Hebrew word we translate as one is "yachid". Learn to read (modern/ Babylonian)Hebrew and get an Artscroll Tanakh.

While I have studied paleo (Ancient) Hebrew, I recognize that I still have much to learn When it comes to the scriptures in their original languages, I also have been blessed to have the help of a gentleman by the name of Baruch ben Daniel. He is a (Hebrew) Netzari Talmid of Yahshua h'Mashiyach and expert in Semitic languages. He studies only from early manuscripts and only in their given languages. He is very helpful and willing to teach (oh, and he firmly holds to the belief that Yahshua is the right arm of YHWH).

You can reach him at mashiyach.com

I am hopeful that you might one day as Him to soften your heart to the truth and come to know Him as YHWH who reached down and saved you with His Right Arm.
It is the glory of Elohim (God) to conceal a matter, but the honour of melekim (kings) to search it out.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#65 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 2:05:43 PM(UTC)
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YAH is my FATHER wrote:

In short it goes something like this: When Yahshua was born, he was indeed a human being like any and all of us - born in the old fashioned manner through a sexual interaction between a man (his dad) and a woman (his mother), however he was truly ear-marked in a blessed manner as the future king, in a similar blessing as King David - his predecessor. So on that point, I am in agreement (I suspect) with Frank's position.

Now, in the process of things for Yahshua, something truly awesome eventuated, when he actually BECAME Messiah, which as an entity; is nothing less than entirely divine, as being - directly from his Eternal FATHER YAH. So he was originally born of his natural parents, but just prior to his ministry, took on a divine nature, when that thing that appeared as a dove descended upon him, apparently after his baptism. So he then, at that point was re-born of heavenly PARENT, which is why he always spoke of 'my FATHER - in heaven', but would often NOT share this parentage with anyone else, as in 'our FATHER', except for what has been called The Lord's Prayer - which means that this prayer has to be identified with any and all - as like himself - having undergone a (so to speak) re-parenting to now belong, rather than to 'earth' (earthly parents) as previously - but surely now ascended - to 'heavenly'.
"So knowledge isn't the main measure, love of Yah and of each other is."




So you believe the Messiah was born out as the son of a man? And not of a "virgin birth".
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Offline YAH is my FATHER  
#66 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 2:15:48 PM(UTC)
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Shalom Robski,

Thank you for your question;
Quote:
So you believe the Messiah was born out as the son of a man? And not of a "virgin birth".


I will answer it with these quotations;
Quote:
"However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual." 1 Corinth. 15:46
Quote:
"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction" (2 Thess 2:3)


Yahshua was 'natural', which came first - then the spiritual (Messiah).

Please be patient and all the relevant details will be much more deeply explored as we delve together.

Blessings to you, my friend.

"So knowledge isn't the main measure, love of Yah and of each other is."
Offline Swalchy  
#67 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 2:18:24 PM(UTC)
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Location: England

Frank4YAHWEH wrote:


Yahshua never stated that he was the Alpha and the Omega! Yahshua the Messiah the son of the Living Yahweh died, not Father Yahweh!

Revelation 1: 8 in the King James Version says, “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.” This verse referring to God as the “Alpha and Omega” does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated that the “oldest MSS. omit” it.


I'm sorry, but The Scriptural Scholar Robert Young died in 1888 CE, so whatever he said on the subject matter is now over a 100 years out of date.

Luckily for us, the oldest manuscript that contains Revelation 1:8 - Codex Sinaiticus - contains the "I am the Alpha and the Omega" including Codex Alexandrius, Vaticanus, and actually, Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus contains "I am the Alpha and the Omega". The Wikipedia article is therefore wrong. What is omit is "the first and the last". But that doesn't negate the fact that "I am the Alpha and the Omega" is in Revelation 1:8

The Nestle-Aland Critical Apparatus gives the following Manuscripts as evidence of "I am the Alpha and the Omega":

אABCP al fere35 (et. 91. 92. 93. 94. 95. 96. 97. 98.) lipss allachm cop GAndc Aretha … ϛ ΑG, praebent 1. 29. 38. 47. 49. 90. 99. 100. al sat mu Anda p bav. Graecis litteris.

Basically - All the important ones.

I also know of no "modern" translations that omit the "I am the Alpha and the Omega" from Revelation 1:8.

Once again Frank, your knowledge of Greek and the Greek manuscript tradition has been proven wrong.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#68 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 3:34:41 PM(UTC)
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YAH is my FATHER wrote:
Shalom Robski,

Thank you for your question;

I will answer it with these quotations;

Yahshua was 'natural', which came first - then the spiritual (Messiah).

Please be patient and all the relevant details will be much more deeply explored as we delve together.

Blessings to you, my friend.


Thanks for the reply. One concern that does strike me right away is that the verse is that is isnt speaking about Yahushua or His state when entering the earth, the way He entered, or His Father or mother... It is speaking about the "resurection body" and explaining about what men are to recive if they trust reliance and obediance are in Yah.

NIV wrote:

The Resurrection Body
35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.


I just find it a little concerning that verses can be snatched out of context like that to fit the needs of the person who is wanting to put their point across. I hope to find deeper explination later, as I am sure there will be... :)
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Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#69 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 9:22:11 PM(UTC)
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Shalom my friends,

I've been following this debate that has taken on the form of an contentious arguement, which seems to be heading down a road to nowhere. I think that both sides are firmly steadfast in their beliefs and neither side is going to persuade or convince the other of who is right and who is wrong. I would agree with shalom82 that this is a congregation of people that are likeminded in what they believe and use this site to fellowship and discuuss their beliefs with one another. I joined this site back in March of this year and came to the realization that my beliefs differ from those of this fellowship.

After talking with bitnet and swalchy about election and predestination, I understood that I didn't believe what was being taught and discussed here. That didn't stop me from reading the post here daily, although I disagreed on how we are to come to be with Yahweh. I find this forurm very useful to me in my studying in how I uderstand the scriptures. I also find the interaction between the brothers on this site, dealing directly with scripture or with the things of this world in general, very informitive and intersting. I have refrained from posting on the forurm b/c I know my beliefs and understanding differs here and I didn't want to interrupt the harmony of this fellowship.

I did however, after reading the post here in the last couple of days, wish to help MAYBE shed some light on the things being discussed here. Not that I have more knowledge, wisdom, or education than anyone on this fourm. I have no knowledge of historical text, languages, or teachings from believers from the past. So I asked myself what can I offer here, where everyones knowledge is way above that of myself and what questions could I answer that hasn't already been throughly answered. Then I remembered that the scripture says that the things of the Lord would be revealed and declared from the mouths of babes. So hopefuly I can in my simple understanding and my simple language bring to light some of the things being discussed here. My knowledge comes strictly from the English version of scripture, so if I error or take out of context, I'm sure I will be corrected.

The questions I see at hand are: Is Yahushua the manifestation of Yahweh, the literal Son of God, one God? If so, how did he become to be the Son of God, the only begotten? and the questioned from Robskiwarrior, When did Yahweh, the Alpha and Omega, die? I think that these questions are clearly answered by answering Robskiwarriors question. When did Yahweh? If we can answer that question correctly, it will bring the other clearly into view. So, I would like to answer this question for you Robski if I may.

I would like to look at how Yahushua came to be the Begotten Son, what does the scriptures say on this. Lets look at Romans 1:4 which says, "And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:" this is teaching us that Yahushua became the Son of God because of his resurrection from the dead. So, was Yahushua the Son of God before he was crucified on the cross, I believe that Matt.16;15,16 answers this and many other verse also answer this question. Matt.16:15,16 "He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Here a disciple claimed that Yahushua was the Son of God while he was with him.
In Mark 3:11.. "And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God." Here
unclean spirits reconize Yahushua as the Son of God, showing not only was he the Son of God while he walked in this world, but they knew this because they remembered him from heaven, showing pre-existence of Yahushua in heaven.

Now, if Yahushua became the Son through the resurrection, pre-existed in heaven, and was known to his disciples as the Son of God while alive on earth, Robski's question has now become the key to understanding WHO the Son of God is and WHEN he came to be. Now if we look at Rev.13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the LAMB SLAIN FROM the FOUNDATION of the world. This verse tells us that Yahweh (God the Father) was the Lamb sacrificed for our sins. Then when he overcame the penalty of death, was resurrected from the dead, and became the firstborn of all creation, he could now be declared the "Son of God". He was the firstborn from the dead and given a new name of Yahushua the Son of the Most High. Still Yahweh the Father, but can now be declared Yahushua the Son.


I hope that my simple understanding in my simple language, spoken from the mouth of a babe, has brought to light the Glory and Praise of the Lord. May his glorious and trustworthy words bless you all. I truely enjoy reading and learning from your knowledge of the scriptures and I hope that my understanding has blessed you in some way.


God Bless, your friend in the word of God.


Offline CK  
#70 Posted : Friday, July 25, 2008 9:25:09 PM(UTC)
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I have no intention of entering this fray. Just happened to be passing through. Had to pick my jaw up from off the floor at some of the things that have been written on this thread.

For 'Frank4YAHWEH': I pray Yahuweh will favor you with greater discernment and wisdom. In the character and love of Yahushua, I ask Abba to please let this be so.

For 'YAH is my Father': I pray Yahuweh will bring clarity to your mind and open your heart to receive only His truth. I pray that He will favor you with a better understanding of His Divine Son, Yahushua. May His Truth guide you.

Yahuweh, our mighty Abba, praise be to Your Name. Please grant our bothers and sisters on this forum Your peace and love. Please favor us with greater patience and understanding. Let us neither be deceived nor become deceivers. Guard us with Your hedge of protection. Keep us in Your Truth. Please let this be so Abba. Amein
Offline bitnet  
#71 Posted : Saturday, July 26, 2008 5:47:02 PM(UTC)
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Shalom All,

Thanks you for your prayer, CK!
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline YAH is my FATHER  
#72 Posted : Sunday, July 27, 2008 2:52:36 PM(UTC)
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I must warmly echo that thank you to CK, particularly since I am one who is seemingly singled out for special blessing via this prayer.

Even so, whilst I am most thankful indeed for the sentiments, I am feeling that it is an offering which perhaps I shouldn't be excessively edacious over, for it would seem to me that there is a world of prospective concomitants in the greater cosmos that is life, who may also delight in a little relishing upon such a banquet of decidedly comestible indulgence.

I seem to be getting hungry - again.

Thanx again CK, and blessings to all.

"So knowledge isn't the main measure, love of Yah and of each other is."
Offline Garrett  
#73 Posted : Monday, July 28, 2008 6:44:34 AM(UTC)
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THE CLOSED MEM (for YAH is may Father).

Shalom Yah is my Father.

I must tell you that appreciate the respectful way in which you disagree with others on this thread. It is refreshing.

I wanted to address something that you said. In regards to Yahshua being a mere man, we need to think about two things. First, a mere man can't atone for sin because he would have sin himself. Of course we know that Yahshua had no sin. We also know that since "all have sinned" Yahshua must be unique.

I have a rabbinical friend who likes to argue that Yahshua could not have been born of a virgin. Of course you and I have the apostolic scriptures or the Ketuvim Netzarim (writings of the Netzari). The reason old Joe was going to divorce Miriam secretly is because he thought she was out messing around. Of course we know that an angel told him not to leave her because the child was not conceived by another man but by the Ruach Elohim.

My rabbinical friend (who naturally rejects the New Covenant writings) argues that the prophesy in Yeshayahu (Isaiah) does not speak of a virgin:

Therefore the YHWH himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Yeshayahu 7:14


My friend argues that the word we have translated "virgin" is actually the word "almah" meaning young maiden. The thing he doesn't realize is that in 1st century Jewish culture an Almah better darn well have been a virgin or she would have been stoned to death. It was implied that an almah was indeed a virgin. My have things changed in 2 thousand years, huh?

But my friend has an even bigger problem when we look at this verse. Let’s see, YHWH will give us a sign...and that sign will be that a young girl will have a child? Not much of a sign, huh? No, the sign would be something miraculous, something distinctive. Young girls have babies every day.

I have heard it said that our sin is a blood disease. It is passed by the seed of the man (semen). Which is precisely why a natural conception would not do.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Genesis 3:15


So we have the whole "Miriam is pregnant ashunda (scandal)" where Yoseph has to be calmed down and reassured by the angel. We have the prophesy in Yeshayahu as well as the prophesy in Genesis...

But I also offer you the following study. I believe YHWH offers those with a sincere heart the subtle confirmation of things like this:

THE CURIOS CLOSED MEM IN YESHAYAHU 9:6

The letter mem in Hebrew corresponds to our English letter “M.” It is one of five letters in the Hebrew alphabet that take a different form when occurring as a final letter of a word. When it occurs in the beginning or middle of a word, it has an opening at the lower left side. But when it occurs as the final letter of a word, it is fully enclosed.

In words like “Messiah,” (Mashiyach, in Hebrew), or “truth” (emet in Hebrew), the letter “mem” is “open.” This is sometimes called the “open mem,” since it has a little opening on the lower left side of the letter. When the letter “mem” ends a word, however, such as “mother” (em in Hebrew), or “peace” (shalom in Hebrew), it is made with its final form, closed in on all sides. This is referred to as the “closed mem.” Note that the word “shalom” -- ends with a closed “mem” (read word from right to left).

According to the rules of Hebrew grammar, the closed mem can only occur at the END of a word, as the final letter of a word.

However, in one place in the Hebrew Bible, this rule is violated in the text. There is one place where a “closed mem” occurs within a word, and not at the end. This peculiar oddity is found only in a prophecy in Isaiah -- a famous prophecy of the coming Messiah. We read in Isaiah 9:6-7, in the KJV --

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be
upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty
God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

“Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne
of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and establish it with judgment and with
justice for henceforth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”

The “closed mem” appears in the word translated “of the increase” -- l'marbeh in Hebrew. The first letter of this word, in Hebrew, is lamed, and is translated “to the,” or “of the.” The main part of the word marbeh, which means “increase,” begins with the letter mem. But it is a CLOSED MEM!

This word marbeh is found in several other places in the Old Testament. It always has an “open mem” at the beginning, as one would expect, due to the rule of grammar. The only place where the word marbeh begins with a “closed mem” is in this Messianic passage dealing with the birth of the Messiah who will rule the world and bring true peace to the earth! Interestingly, rabbis associate this letter “mem” with the “womb.” Rabbinic sources are Sefer Yetzira 3:4; Bahir 85; Etz Chaim, shaar Ha Yereach 3. So says Daniel Botkin in his article “The Mystery of the Closed Mem” (published in Gates of Eden, May-June 1995).

Botkin goes on to say:

“A closed mem is a closed womb; an open mem is the womb opening to give birth (Bahir
84). What does this tell us about the child in Isaiah's prophecy? It tells us that this Child
will be concealed inside a closed womb, i.e., the womb of the Virgin spoken of in Isaiah
7:14: ‘Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with
Child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel (God with us).’

“It is interesting to note that there is a Hebrew word for womb which begins with mem –
hey ayin mem (me'eh = ‘womb’). This word appears in the story of Ruth, one of the
few women listed in the genealogy of the Messiah in Matthew chapter 1. It is also
interesting that the Virgin mother, who descended from Ruth, had a name that begins
and ends with the letter mem. Christians know her as Mary, but her Hebrew name was
Miriam.

“Of course the rabbis don't see any hints of Miriam in Isaiah’s prophecy, but they are
aware of this mysterious closed mem and of its Messianic implications. The rabbis
teach that when it is time for the redemption, the closed mem of Isaiah's l'marbeh will
open for the coming of the Messiah (Radak, Isa.9:6).

“In light of all this, we can see why the Holy Spirit inspired Isaiah to break the rules
of Hebrew grammar and spelling by writing (l'marbeh). The purpose is to draw our
attention to the letter mem, where we see the initial of Miriam, the mother of this Child.
We also see it as the initial for me'eh, 'womb,' which in this case is a closed mem -- the
closed womb of the virgin Miriam , which opened at the time of Redemption to give
birth to the Child spoken of in this prophecy.”

Edited by user Tuesday, July 29, 2008 6:37:33 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

It is the glory of Elohim (God) to conceal a matter, but the honour of melekim (kings) to search it out.
User is suspended until 5/13/2282 1:33:02 PM(UTC) Frank4YAHWEH  
#74 Posted : Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:50:48 AM(UTC)
Frank4YAHWEH
Joined: 10/16/2007(UTC)
Posts: 26
Man
Location: Richmond, Indiana

Garrett wrote:
Well said shalom82.
But I would actually like to thank Frank. He has contributed, in a sense. You see, I believe Avinu Malkenu YHWH allows our faith and our understanding to be tested. That is a way in which He grows us up and makes us stronger. It is also how He weeds out the chaff. Being a part of this dialogue has forced me to dive even deeper. Not only have I learned more from my brothers here, I have gone back to His Word to see what He would have me to know. I am not implying that Frank is a brother or that he is iron that sharpens my iron. But I am saying that anytime we are forced to really dive deep (and if we really are His) we will inevitably come up stronger. Kind of like pruning a tree and the increased fruit that results.

Thank you Frank. Because of the challenge you have posed here, I am now even more convinced that: Yahshua is the Right Arm of YHWY. That He is indeed the physical manifestation of the eternal Yah. That no mere man could pay the price for my transgression. That the "Goel" must have the right to redeem and no sinful man could be my goel (or go-al). Frank, you have better prepared me for the battle to come and I truly am grateful.

I do have to confess something though. I checked out your links (and did a little more research). I realized early on that you did not come here seeking the truth. You did not come here to grow and learn. You came here with and agenda.
After many years of prideful stubbornness, I have found that I can only learn when I am humble and willing to acknowledge that I do not have all the answers. YHWH has blessed some with the understanding and the calling of moreh (teacher). I believe there are men on these boards who have been called to such and endeavor.

That said, I didn't just trust and believe the things being taught by Ken and Yada. I checked them out. I did a little research on my own. While there are still somethings I don't completely understand (and am not willing to accept on blind faith). What I will say about these men (and others on this board) is this:

They ohev YHWH b-chol l'vavcha u-v-chol naf'sh'cha u-v-chol m'odecha. And they take it one step further. They ohev l'recha, ka'omocha (They love YHWH with all their heart, soul and might... and they love people more than themselves). They are not here to make a buck...trust me, I have tried to buy their publications and they won't sell them to me.
I have verified 98% of what I have learned here and it all lines up. These guys spend the time (and apparently the $$) to make sure that they are teaching truth.

I also checked them out (on a personal level)...I wanted to make sure that I am learning from men of honor and integrity. I needed to make sure that they aren't just a couple of fringe yokels that are out there spouting their own opinions. These boys study, and do a ton of research.

Now (and please take this in the spirit by which it is meant) I have done the same in regards to you. Please don't get your pride up here and please know that I am not trying to offend you. What I have found is a divorced guy in his early 50's that has a manual labor job in Indiana. I'm not saying that a true teacher must have an MDIV from Dallas theological Seminary (actually I would be less likely to trust that guy). But it appears that you have no training and are not willing to reveal much about how you have come to be so enlightened (wink).

I am also not saying that YHWH only chooses those who have lived unblemished lives. What I am saying is that we are not to be thrown around by every new "revelation" that some guy on the internet tries to cram down our throats. Especially when it requires the type of textual gymnastics that you have demonstrated here.

You seem like a guy that is so adamant that you are right, that you aren't even willing to trust what the scriptures clearly say. You seem (and I am just guessing, here) stubborn, bored, and maybe a little lonely.

Frank, at some point you have to be willing to trust YHWH. You can't manipulate the text in order to make it line up with your beliefs. What verses are you willing to trust? No, YHWH is omnipotent and He has preserved His truth for those who desire to seek Him out. And you have to take it all, or leave it all. He said there is "no cutting and pasting allowed" (I'm paraphrasing).
I have had JWs and Mormons come to my door, and after spending hours showing them the fallacy of their religious systems, they were still just as stubborn and blind as they were when they came. Some people have chosen to believe what they want to and they don't want to be confused with the facts/truth. This goes for "Christians" especially.

Lest you accuse me of doing the same thing, I will tell you that I graduated from Chico State University in northern California with a BS in business. I say that so you will know that I am the product of the public school and state university system. I was a committed atheist and evolutionist. Until I was challenged to look into the reliability of the scriptures. I was again challenged to look into the plausibility of the Darwinian model. And I was humble enough to open my mind and my heart.

Later, as an "Evangelical Sunday worshiping, Protestant, Christian" I was challenged to look into some of the teachings and practices of the church. Again, I was humble and open to the truth...and I walked away from pagan Christianity, and into a deeper walk with YHWH.

Frank, you seem to like to cut and paste canned responses from anti-missionary websites and other authors on the internet. So, in keeping with that tradition I figured you may be interested to know that even the Kabbalists acknowledge the word Echad implies a "compound unity" when referring to YHWH. Of course they deny Yahshua as the promised Mashiyach and are forced to make erroneous conclusions as to what that unity entails. It is often said that if you won't accept the truth, you will accept anything in its place. The Kabbalists also fully assert that Yachid clearly denotes "The Single One" or absolute singular. Here is a quote from inner.org a Kabbalah website:

In general, the level of Echad is the secret of God's Essential Name Havayah--the Name that reveals (to Himself) His very Essence--before the beginning of Creation."Here O' Israel Havayah is our God Havayah is One." Our sages teach us that "One" refers to God's true and absolute unity within His Creation. Here, the level of Echad represents the ultimate origin of this unity before Creation.
In Kabbalah we are taught that the four words "Havayah is our God Havayah is One" correspond to the four letters of God's Essential Name Havayah. The first two words, "Havayah is our God," correspond to the higher union of the first two letters of Havayah--yud hei--"the concealed things are to Havayah our God." The following two words, "Havayah is One," correspond to the lower union of the second two letters of Havayah--vav hei--the revealed things are to us and our children."
The higher union is that of the sha'ashuim atzmi'im, which possess in themselves two levels corresponding to the two letters yud hei (as will be described). The lower union is that of the two levels of aliat ha'ratzon and ana emloch corresponding to the two letters vav hei (to be described).


Echad: http://www.inner.org/worlds/echad.htm
Yachid: http://www.inner.org/worlds/yachid.htm

If even those who deny Mashiyach acknowledge the compound unity implied in the word echad, it’s going to be a real task to demonstrate otherwise.

You seem to trust that because someone included the Hebraic term echad in parentheses (echad) wherever the English word "one" is used that Echad must denote an absolute singularity. I suggest you dive a bit deeper. When YHWH commands Avraham to sacrifice his "only son" Yitzchak, the Hebrew word we translate as one is "yachid". Learn to read (modern/ Babylonian)Hebrew and get an Artscroll Tanakh.

While I have studied paleo (Ancient) Hebrew, I recognize that I still have much to learn When it comes to the scriptures in their original languages, I also have been blessed to have the help of a gentleman by the name of Baruch ben Daniel. He is a (Hebrew) Netzari Talmid of Yahshua h'Mashiyach and expert in Semitic languages. He studies only from early manuscripts and only in their given languages. He is very helpful and willing to teach (oh, and he firmly holds to the belief that Yahshua is the right arm of YHWH).

You can reach him at mashiyach.com

I am hopeful that you might one day as Him to soften your heart to the truth and come to know Him as YHWH who reached down and saved you with His Right Arm.


Peace greetings Garrett,

You are right about my not coming here seeking truth. I came here to reveal and speak the truth as I was taught from Scripture and to expose lies taught in so called "Church" doctrines. I have yet to have anyone show and prove to me from Scripture where Yahshua or anyone else in Scripture proclaimed that Yahshua is his own Father Yahweh or that he pre-existed his birth. I would like you to go back and please consider my initial post in this thread. I simply stated what it was that I believe. Others responded to my post in opposition to what it is that I believe. Scripture only requires me to believe that Yahshua is the Messiah the son of the living Yahweh, not that he is his own Father Yahweh or that he pre-existed his birth or was the creator or was a co-creator with his Father Yahweh in your supposed pre-existence doctrine. Yahshua the Messiah the son of the living Yahweh did refer to Yahweh as "My Father" on many ocassions and Father Yahweh refered to Yahshua as His son in whom he was well pleased. Scripture also has not taught me that Father Yahweh died for our sins but, that it was His son Yahshua who died for our sins. Scripture says not one single thing about a "triune God", a "Holy Trinity", a "deity of Jesus Christ, or that "Yahshua is divine." I am not taught from reading and studying Father Yahweh's inspired word that there is a "God the Son" or a "God the Holy Spirit" as seperate beings or persons. These false, deceptive unsound words only proceed from the mouths of false teachers and prophets and do not proceed from the mouth of Father Yahweh Whose word we are to live by. It is no fault of mine when someone has a problem with what it is that I believe and that they become indignant to what it is that I believe. All one has to do is simply not respond to my posts if they want to become indignant to what it is that I believe. They are at fault for responding and getting involved in communicting with me. Did I ask for a responce to the posts that I made. No! If no one would have responded to my posts and addressed me personally, I would have never responded back. My beliefs for the most part coinicide with 'Yah is my Father' but, I believe that 'Yah is my Father' believe differently about Yahshua's birth. I believe that 'Yah is my Father' believes that Yahshua is a product of Yahseph and Mariam having sexual intercourse and dose not espouse to Yahshua being born of a virgin who had no prier intercourse with a man before Yahshua's birth. I do not believe this. Please do correct me if I am wrong 'Yah is my Father'. I have often wondered why it is when I enter into a discussion on a forum everyone gangs up on me and not others who have similar beliefs as I do who are part of the same forum and thread. I believe I have figured that one out though! Yeah! Let's gang up on the new guy and see if we can decieve him into believing false doctrine of mere men! Of course, they are not aware that I have come well equiped to fight off the wiles of these devilish doctrines. I also was once a Christian unaware so, I speak from experience. I have accepted Father Yahweh instuction of reproof and correction in accordance with his word, not the mere words taught in so called "Church" doctrines.

As to the growing and learning, I do grow and learn when truth is spoken but, for the most part, the majority of those that have entered into this discussion do not speak truth when they say that Yahshua is his own Father Yahweh and that he pe-existed his birth. Yes, I have come here with an agenda, and that is to teach the truth that Yahshua is not his own Father Yahweh and that he did not pre-exist his birth. You act as if because I came here with an agenda that I have committed some kind of sin. Think about it! Do you not also have an agenda to proclaim that Yahshua is Yahweh and that he pre-existed his birth? My agenda is simply not in accordance with your agenda. Deal with it!

There is no doubt that Yahweh invited Yahshua to sit at His right hand. .... The "arm of Yahweh" is Isayah’s reference to the Messiah. For example, if I say that my son is my right hand man, I am in no way implying that my son and I are one and the same being. He certainly would not use my name to identify himself and I certainly would not use the name that I have given him to idendify myself. It was Father Yahweh Who has given His son a name above all other names. Not that the name Yahshua is above His own Father's Name but, that He has given him a name that is above all other names besides his Own Name.

Garrett wrote:
That He is indeed the physical manifestation of the eternal Yah. That no mere man could pay the price for my transgression.


Scripture does not teach that Yahshua "is ... the physical manifestation of the eternal Yah." Scripture teaches that Father Yahweh's word was manifest (MADE KNOWN) is the flesh THROUGH his son Yahshua.

Garrett wrote:
Now (and please take this in the spirit by which it is meant) I have done the same in regards to you. Please don't get your pride up here and please know that I am not trying to offend you. What I have found is a divorced guy in his early 50's that has a manual labor job in Indiana. I'm not saying that a true teacher must have an MDIV from Dallas theological Seminary (actually I would be less likely to trust that guy). But it appears that you have no training and are not willing to reveal much about how you have come to be so enlightened (wink).


I am sorry but, I do take offence at your assumptions. Not only because they are simply that "assumptions" but that you have no right to make such rash judgments against me personally. This discussion is not about me personally you twit! I am in no way proud of myself! I have denied myself as instructed in Father Yahweh's word. You are the one who is boastful and proud!

Please don't try and play Steve Schirripa with me! You are not even close to what he does!

UserPostedImage
Steve Schirripa

Garrett wrote:
Frank, you seem to like to cut and paste canned responses from anti-missionary websites and other authors on the internet. So, in keeping with that tradition I figured you may be interested to know that even the Kabbalists acknowledge the word Echad implies a "compound unity" when referring to YHWH. Of course they deny Yahshua as the promised Mashiyach and are forced to make erroneous conclusions as to what that unity entails. It is often said that if you won't accept the truth, you will accept anything in its place. The Kabbalists also fully assert that Yachid clearly denotes "The Single One" or absolute singular. Here is a quote from inner.org a Kabbalah website:

In general, the level of Echad is the secret of God's Essential Name Havayah--the Name that reveals (to Himself) His very Essence--before the beginning of Creation."Here O' Israel Havayah is our God Havayah is One." Our sages teach us that "One" refers to God's true and absolute unity within His Creation. Here, the level of Echad represents the ultimate origin of this unity before Creation.
In Kabbalah we are taught that the four words "Havayah is our God Havayah is One" correspond to the four letters of God's Essential Name Havayah. The first two words, "Havayah is our God," correspond to the higher union of the first two letters of Havayah--yud hei--"the concealed things are to Havayah our God." The following two words, "Havayah is One," correspond to the lower union of the second two letters of Havayah--vav hei--the revealed things are to us and our children."
The higher union is that of the sha'ashuim atzmi'im, which possess in themselves two levels corresponding to the two letters yud hei (as will be described). The lower union is that of the two levels of aliat ha'ratzon and ana emloch corresponding to the two letters vav hei (to be described).


Echad: http://www.inner.org/worlds/echad.htm
Yachid: http://www.inner.org/worlds/yachid.htm


I am well aware what Kabbalists teach and their teaching is not in reference to what it is that you teach. They are also mislead and you choose to use their teaching out of context to bolster your false teaching. I must laugh at both yours and their erroneousness! I am also quite familiar with mashiyach.com. I have this site linked on my web site.



Edited by user Tuesday, July 29, 2008 1:16:54 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

[ALL] Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH[WEH]!" Yahshua Gave All Esteem [Glory] To Father Yahweh (Yahchanan [John] 3:34; 4:26; 5:19,30; 7:16,18,28, 8:17,18,28,42,50; 12:47-50; 14:24; 17:8; Mattithyah [Matthew] 20:23; 26:39; Acts 3:22,26). To Believe "Jesus Is God" Is To Be Deceived! http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm
User is suspended until 5/13/2282 1:33:02 PM(UTC) Frank4YAHWEH  
#75 Posted : Tuesday, July 29, 2008 12:33:28 PM(UTC)
Frank4YAHWEH
Joined: 10/16/2007(UTC)
Posts: 26
Man
Location: Richmond, Indiana

CK wrote:
I have no intention of entering this fray. Just happened to be passing through. Had to pick my jaw up from off the floor at some of the things that have been written on this thread.

For 'Frank4YAHWEH': I pray Yahuweh will favor you with greater discernment and wisdom. In the character and love of Yahushua, I ask Abba to please let this be so.

For 'YAH is my Father': I pray Yahuweh will bring clarity to your mind and open your heart to receive only His truth. I pray that He will favor you with a better understanding of His Divine Son, Yahushua. May His Truth guide you.

Yahuweh, our mighty Abba, praise be to Your Name. Please grant our bothers and sisters on this forum Your peace and love. Please favor us with greater patience and understanding. Let us neither be deceived nor become deceivers. Guard us with Your hedge of protection. Keep us in Your Truth. Please let this be so Abba. Amein


Well, you have entered the fray like it or not! If you did not want to enter the fray, why even respond with your foolish payer. Please do to not direct prayers concerning me. Leave my name out of your prayers. If you must pray, keep it to yourself!
[ALL] Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH[WEH]!" Yahshua Gave All Esteem [Glory] To Father Yahweh (Yahchanan [John] 3:34; 4:26; 5:19,30; 7:16,18,28, 8:17,18,28,42,50; 12:47-50; 14:24; 17:8; Mattithyah [Matthew] 20:23; 26:39; Acts 3:22,26). To Believe "Jesus Is God" Is To Be Deceived! http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm
User is suspended until 5/13/2282 1:33:02 PM(UTC) Frank4YAHWEH  
#76 Posted : Tuesday, July 29, 2008 12:53:40 PM(UTC)
Frank4YAHWEH
Joined: 10/16/2007(UTC)
Posts: 26
Man
Location: Richmond, Indiana

TRUTH B-TOLD wrote:
I would like to look at how Yahushua came to be the Begotten Son, what does the scriptures say on this. Lets look at Romans 1:4 which says, "And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:" this is teaching us that Yahushua became the Son of God because of his resurrection from the dead. So, was Yahushua the Son of God before he was crucified on the cross, I believe that Matt.16;15,16 answers this and many other verse also answer this question. Matt.16:15,16 "He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Here a disciple claimed that Yahushua was the Son of God while he was with him.
In Mark 3:11.. "And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God." Here
unclean spirits reconize Yahushua as the Son of God, showing not only was he the Son of God while he walked in this world, but they knew this because they remembered him from heaven, showing pre-existence of Yahushua in heaven.

Now, if Yahushua became the Son through the resurrection, pre-existed in heaven, and was known to his disciples as the Son of God while alive on earth, Robski's question has now become the key to understanding WHO the Son of God is and WHEN he came to be. Now if we look at Rev.13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the LAMB SLAIN FROM the FOUNDATION of the world. This verse tells us that Yahweh (God the Father) was the Lamb sacrificed for our sins. Then when he overcame the penalty of death, was resurrected from the dead, and became the firstborn of all creation, he could now be declared the "Son of God". He was the firstborn from the dead and given a new name of Yahushua the Son of the Most High. Still Yahweh the Father, but can now be declared Yahushua the Son.


I hope that my simple understanding in my simple language, spoken from the mouth of a babe, has brought to light the Glory and Praise of the Lord. May his glorious and trustworthy words bless you all. I truely enjoy reading and learning from your knowledge of the scriptures and I hope that my understanding has blessed you in some way.


God Bless, your friend in the word of God.




Yahshua became the first begotten (first fruits) son of Yahweh from the dead because of his obedience to Father Yahweh. Note that the Scripture teaches that he LEARNED OBEDIENCE THROUGH SUFFERING. He did not become Father Yahweh nor was he his own Father Yahweh. Why would Father Yahweh need to learn obedience when He is the one Who we are to obey? Can you not see how foolish what you are espousing to sounds!

Revelation 13:8 DOES NOT say "Yahweh (God the Father) was the Lamb sacrificed for our sins." This is simply adding onto the word and developing your own "private interpretation". In fact, nowhere in Scripture will you find such a stupid and foolish quote.
[ALL] Praise Be To YAHWEH! "HalleluYAH[WEH]!" Yahshua Gave All Esteem [Glory] To Father Yahweh (Yahchanan [John] 3:34; 4:26; 5:19,30; 7:16,18,28, 8:17,18,28,42,50; 12:47-50; 14:24; 17:8; Mattithyah [Matthew] 20:23; 26:39; Acts 3:22,26). To Believe "Jesus Is God" Is To Be Deceived! http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#77 Posted : Tuesday, July 29, 2008 1:32:11 PM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Man
Location: England

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Frank4YAHWEH wrote:
You are right about my not coming here seeking truth. I came here to reveal and speak the truth as I was taught from Scripture and to expose lies taught in so called "Church" doctrines. I have yet to have anyone show and prove to me from Scripture where Yahshua or anyone else in Scripture proclaimed that Yahshua is his own Father Yahweh or that he pre-existed his birth.


If you are hear to push an agenda and not to learn, and are not willing to learn - you are not required here. Also you think yourself to be speaking the truth, when you can not even respond to points raised in any kind of of constructive manner.

As we have stated many times, most people here do not credit the doctrine of the trinity. One God is one God.

Frank4YAHWEH wrote:
As to the growing and learning, I do grow and learn when truth is spoken but, for the most part, the majority of those that have entered into this discussion do not speak truth when they say that Yahshua is his own Father Yahweh and that he pe-existed his birth.


again, you have yet to discredit anything scripturally posted against anything we have said - other than bringing up out of context and out of date scraps, which can easily be proved errant, to twist things to your own agenda.

Frank4YAHWEH wrote:

Well, you have entered the fray like it or not! If you did not want to enter the fray, why even respond with your foolish payer. Please do to not direct prayers concerning me. Leave my name out of your prayers. If you must pray, keep it to yourself!


Just no need.

I could go on, but you wont listen anyway. Due to your irrational and inappropriate behaviour, I have locked this thread and banned your account.

I hope you learn to look at the evidence, whether it is for your opinion or against it, and make a logical and rational decision towards the truth.

I'm sorry it had to turn out this way.

Shalom.

- Rob
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
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