Joseph,
My personal view is that of a "pre-wrath" rapture which this verse and many others support. This view does not negate the significance of timing relative to the miqra's but does not support a rapture event prior to any of the seals being broken. Ken makes a significantly different case for a "pre-trib" rapture and I am actually re-reading FH to eaxamine his evidence for such. (I greatly value everything else I have read from him and it is illogical to toss out something he has diligently researched just based on my prior studies.)

IMHO, I found it difficult to support a snatching away of believers significantly in advance of the sixth seal. Everything else points to an event (sign in the sun moon and stars) matching the sixth seal. Shortly after we see the 144,000 sealed, a gathering no man could count from every nation then the seventh seal initiating the process for Yahweh's wrath (trumpets and bowls). Other things that don't figure into a pre-first seal rapture by observation: Why didn't Yahushau talk about an event prior to the one He described in the Olivet Discourse and the Temple Discourse when his disciples asked him point blank about these things? Why didn't Yahushua discuss a prio event in detail as he did every other event in Revelation? These things don't add up.

You have to ask, "What about the description of the ekklesia in Phildelphia being kept from what was to come?" Frankly, either side of the coin has to assume something. Is "being kept from" a prior snatching away or is it physical protection? Either view can want it to say what supports their view but neither have enough ground to stand on there.

Jim

Edit:

Swalchy,
I've read what Yada says about us and Angels explorering time and space but it just doesn't make sense. I guarantee the first thing I want to do is hang around the throne and be in His presence after all we have been through down here. I would also want to stick around and watch His plans unfold not go off exploring when I can do that later (so to speak from a time perspective). ;)

The puzzle for the sequence of events just isn't that complicated to need to fit in a pre-first seal gathering and then expect us to flit about when everything of importance to include in prophetic scripture is about to happen.
Jim

Edit #2:
BTW: I wouldn't mind being wrong about this mind you!

Edited by user Saturday, November 3, 2007 4:29:19 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

KP,
Yes, based on my position, you could say the question is rhetorical. We all come from some basis of understanding or belief so even if we ask a binomial question we may be begging the answer just by serving up the question. I could have also suggested spriritual protection as well.

Multiple assumptions here. 1) It is not likely Philadelphian believers could survive through those things described in the first five seals. The first two "World Wars" were far from global yet were substantial enough conflicts to be described as world wars. Even if the pending conflicts are more substantial than the combination of WWI and WWII (highly likely they will) there is plenty of opportunity for Yahuweh to do what he has done before and make a way. (This is really the point, btw.) 2) Prolific nuke use before the trumpets and bowls. There is no indication that nukes will be involved within the first five seals. Post that time, there are pretty convincing descriptions for massive deployments. (Not discounting possible isolated usage which would cause escalation as described later) 3)Nukes are part of the "testing". You can't really "pass" (yes, they are quite democratic) so where's the test. 4) That I am saying all self proclaimed Christians are Philadelphian. No way. How else would there be a test of those who dwell on earth or for there to be a great falling away from the faith. Even with the "ek" being "out of" it is not indicative of a preliminary removal from the planet.

Both you and Yada have described that we all get garmets of light (white robes), not just those who were killed. As you noted, there was "a great multitude which no one could number". I guarantee it would be a simple thing for Yahushua to reveal a number for the "number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed" since that number had to be completed by His own words (Admittedly, not a strong argument). However, it would, by necessity, be a far more finite number than a gathering of all believers who were raptured. So what is more likely about John's description in Revelatio 7:9-10; A) tribulation martyers as "a great multitude which no one could number" when he just described them as "the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held" and who were waiting for their number to completed or B) the universal set of raptured believers? (KP, I'm not trying to be rhetorical but sincere with this question)
Jim

Edit:

Joseph,
After I answered KP's response, I realized I owe you an apology. I sidetracked your thread with a rebuttle rather than start a new one. That was rude and I should have been more thoughtful of your intent. KP may answer my post but if I need to reply or answer something, I'll start a new thread and reference this one.
Please forgive me.
Jim

Edited by user Saturday, November 3, 2007 4:28:06 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

haha

I love you kp.

Yahwarrior.... just asking a quick question. do you use "lord" as an acceptable title for YHWH? i was just asking based on somethings i found on your site

thanks for clearing that up for me! you're a great asset to the kingdom! keep up your good work!

Perhaps the proper interpretation of being kept out of the hour of trial is more accurately protrayed as passing through the hour of trial as other numbers of people had done so in scripture. Although, in scripture and in the extrabiblical manuscript Jubiless (if I recall correctly) there are three references to individuals being taken up or raptured - Enoch is the first, then EliYah, and finally Yahshua. Yahshua Himself was kept out of His first hour of trial that threatened His early death by Herod's sword, His parents being instructed by the angel to flee to the wilderness and to Egypt. There is no doubt that a rapture will occur at some time. The $60,000 question is of course, when?

Yet when it comes to numbers of peoples, not single individuals, whether a few or a multitude of millions, being kept “out of” the hour of trial, we see the people protected 'through' the trial.

8 individuals were protected and carried through the trial of flood on the ark of Noah when Yah brought judgment to the world.

Righteous Lot and family were protected and led out of Sodom, yet both the wicked cities were destroyed whilst Lot and company were led out and escaped the hour of trial.

Moshe led the multitude through the trial that came upon Egypt, a type of the world, Egypt suffering judgments which were similar to the judgments in Revelation, then again leading them through the wilderness, again a pre-type of the wilderness the remnant is led into in Revelation, also threathened with early death, yet preserved through the trial.



I think being kept out of the hour of trial could also mean being preserved through it.

Yah Bless!

YahWarrior
Harry

I would have to agree with KP on this one, there is too much focus on Israel being "preserved" - but believers who have have come to Yah during the trib seem to be getting their heads removed from their bodies... in general there is too much evidence for a pre-trib harvest, and knowing Yah, it just makes logical sense.

I also2504 will keep5083 thee4571 from1537 the3588 hour5610 of temptation,3986

G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.

G1537
ἐκ, ἐξ
ek ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

G3986
πειρασμός
peirasmos
pi-ras-mos'
From G3985; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation, X try.

G3985
πειράζω
peirazō
pi-rad'-zo
From G3984; to test (objectively), that is, endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline: - assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt (-er), try.

Act 14:22 strengthening the beings of the taught ones, encouraging them to continue in the belief, and that through many pressures we have to enter the reign of Elohim.

G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
Rev 12:14 And the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, to fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And out of his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river after the woman, to cause her to be swept away by the river.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Elohim and possessing the witness of יהושע Messiah.

G1093
γῆ
gē
ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.

It seems that the Man Child Remnant will be on the Earth during the second half of the tribulation.

We shall agree to disagree.

Yah Bless!

YahWarrior
Harry

Edited by user Sunday, December 9, 2007 9:03:10 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I also came across this "last trumpet" in 1 Cor 15:52 and assumed it would gel with the seventh trumpet blast as mentioned in Rev 10:7 and 11:15. However, the following quote for chapter 8 of FH seems to help clarify the issue:



And then if we couple that explanation with kp's quote from this forum topic we should come to the conclusion that the Rapture is Pre-Trib.



We need to make sure we understand the different roles of the ekklesia and Israel (as a nation). This description of Enoch and Noah has really helped me understand more concerning the different roles.

Concerning the trumpet blast: Does Israel today still practice that same 100 blast tradition?

It would be arrogant to say that we know when the rapture will be, however there are many clued that can lead us to the high probability that it is pre-trib. Much more importantly, if one has faith in the rapture and not YHWH, one probably won't be raptured anyway. If one has faith in YHWH, one simply has to say, 'oh dear' and get on with it...

Please don't forget, YHWH chooses his people, if one's name is not written in the book of life, there is nothing one can do :-)

When I was researching Future History, I came to the epiphany (though I can't guarantee I'm right) that the specific "trial" Yahshua referred to in Rev 3:10 is being faced with the lose-lose scenario of the Mark of the Beast. This, by all indicators, will be instituted around the mid-point of the Tribulation, subsequent to the abomination of desolation. Thus by this one indicator, a post-trib rapture is impossible, though a mid-trib rapture is not ruled out. But a mid-trib rapture scenario ignores the "unexpected" aspect that is required of the rapture. And it totally throws out the "Feast of Trumpets" tie-in. If my timeline is correct (counting backward from the Feast of Tabernacles, 2033), the abomination of desolation will occur on March 28, 2030---totally the wrong time of year.

As far as the "falling away" (Gk: apostasia) is concerned, yes, we are seeing "apostasy" today as never before (or so it seems). But even now, it is not complete. There is still a believing remnant. But reverse engineer the pre-trib rapture scenario: by definition, the aftermath of the rapture would render total apostasy---falling away from God's truth---a fait accompli in the earth.

And finally YahWarrior, I wouldn't worry about being "prepared," just in case. They're going to be killing guys like us in the streets long before the abomination of desolation. (That is, if the nukes don't get us first.) We're "religious terrorists," don't you know? The temerity of suggesting that we all need a Savior---well, it's downright antisocial! :-)

kp

To restart the post!

What about 1 Peter 1:3-7? Post-trib advocates use this to say we'll pass through the Trib in order to be refined, therefore we'll face the trial of the Tribulation according to them. They focus on the last part of "at the revelation of Yahshua Messiah."

"Blessed be the Elohim and Father of our Master Yahshua Messiah, who according to His great compassion has caused us to be born again to a living expectation through the resurrection of Yahshua Messiah from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, having been kept in the heavens for you, who are protected by the power of Elohim through belief, for a deliverance ready to be revealed in the last time, in which you exult, even though for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by manifold trials, in order that the proving of your belief – much more precious than gold that perishes, and proven by fire – might be found to result in praise and respect and esteem at the revelation of Yahshua Messiah, whom having not seen, you love; in whom you exult with unspeakable and esteemed joy, yet not seeing, but believing, obtaining the goal of your belief: a deliverance of lives."

Continuing:

“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’” (Revelation 3:1-6)

Does the phrase of "I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you" have any connection to the Rapture? This seems strange at it is associated with the Church of Sardis. Does the era of Sardis overlap with the Church of Philadelphia in any way?

Thanks kp!

Next question, someone with Greek knowledge perhaps:

The beloved Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." I've heard that some manuscripts do not have the "nor the Son" part, is this true? What about the original, if we know which [edit: is] the original, does it include "the Son?" If so, [edit: in Greek] is there a different way to right [edit: right should be write] the Son in reference to Yahshua and son in reference to any son? In Enlglish it is capitalised to indicate the Messiah.

Next question: When Yahweh turned His attention to the Gentiles, was it specifically on the Feast or Pentecost or was it sometime afterwards? Reason I'm asking is because of the Daniel prophecy of there being 7 years (a 70th week) for the Jews. Daniel didn't say 7 years and a bit but exactly 7 years, and his 69 weeks prophecy was dead accurate down to the very day. Therefore, if the Rapture was to occur in 2026, just before the Trib starts the 7 year prophecy would be exact. Hmm, maybe then not done to the very day but still very close being in the same year. But if Yahweh removed His people earlier then there would be a brief gap of a few months if in 2026, or a year or a few years, where His attention is not on anyone specifically. :) I was just briefly writing about this prohecy and then thought about His attention from the Gentiles to the Jews and how exacting Daniel's prophecy was already proved. If Daniel's 7 year prophecy is exact to the very day then when is the very day He returns His attention to the Jews, is it on the exact day the Tribulation starts?

A person gave this passage in Revelation to say that the phrase "this is the first resurrection" indicates that people (all saints since the crucifixion) are only resurrected at His Second Coming, adding that the Pre-Trib Rapture is a bogus claim. I'm not really sure how to respond to it.

"And I saw thrones – and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them – and the lives of those who had been beheaded because of the witness they bore to Yahuweh and because of the Word of Elohim, and who did not worship the beast, nor his image, and did not receive his mark upon their foreheads or upon their hands. And they lived and reigned with Messiah for a thousand years (and the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended) – this is the first resurrection." Revelation 20:4-5

Edit:

I came across Swalchy's take on verse 5, check it out: "The rest of those remaining that were dead and lifeless, departed and deceased, inanimate and destitute of life, useless and powerless, ineffective and inoperable did not come to life before or until the thousand years had been completed and finished, accomplished, fulfilled and brought to an end. That means this is the first and foremost, primary, chief and principal, the first in honour, influence, and rank, the superior, most prominent and important resurrection and restoration to life, process of change to a higher status and standing up to renewal."

In this version it doesn't mean first, as in to be first in position, but first in terms of being superior. With this understanding all those resurrected, either at the Rapture or at the end of the Trib, will have the thrill of being priets, ruling and reigning with Yahushua, whereas those who die during the Millennium will be resurrected only at the end, unless of course they survive right through not tasting death. Am I right?

Edited by user Tuesday, September 2, 2008 9:41:55 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I'd agree, Matthew. Besides, the post-rapture believers (at least the gentile contingent) are represented by the "Church," the ekklesia---the called out ones---of Laodicea. As part of the ekklesia, they will by definition be indwelled by the Spirit of Yahweh, as Yahshua promised. But the fact remains, one minute after the rapture, there won't be a single Spirit-indwelled believer on the face of the earth, making the events of II Thessalonians 2:7 (the "taking away" of the Restrainer) possible.

kp

We have no scriptural indication, of course, Matthew. But I get the distinct feeling that the number of us who are to be raptured (that is, those living at the time) will end up being a mere handful compared to those who repent and turn to Yahweh after the rapture. We are invariably described as a minority; we are they who have "entered by the narrow gate" that "few find." But the Tribulation martyrs (never mind those who actually make it all the way through to the end and enter the Millennium as mortals and survive the separation of the sheep from the goats) are described as "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues." I would not be surprised to find the Tribulation believers eventually outnumbering the pre-rapture saints by a factor of forty or fifty. And I expect the number of believers born during the Millennial reign to dwarf both previous populations---billions of new brothers and sisters. Again, just a guess.

kp