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Offline James  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:15:49 AM(UTC)
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Here is an intresting discussion I recently had with a friend, we often talk of free will and such.

Do Angels have free will, if they do the idea that Yah made man to love him means that Angels for some other reason can't.
But if Angels don't have free will, then the advesary couldn't have rebelled.

I have my own thoughts on this, and will share them latter, but I would be very intrested in hearing what everyone else thinks.

Edited by user Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:40:40 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Light1  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, October 31, 2007 8:31:26 AM(UTC)
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I think Angels have free will, but since they live in the presence of the Creator and know how awesome he is, a choice to rebel against his love and glory is something so bad they can't come back from it. Humans on the other hand are born outside of His presence and live in a separate world where true knowledge of Him is supressed and excluded so he can forgive us as we stumble along.
Offline James  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:38:26 AM(UTC)
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But Adam lived in the presence of God also, and Yahweh continued to have a loving relationship with him even after teh fall.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Light1  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, October 31, 2007 1:04:16 PM(UTC)
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Adam was close to Yahweh, but he was placed on the earth, not in heaven so he wasn't as close as an angel might be. Also Yahweh used his fall as a way to set satan up to do away with him for good in the end.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:40:17 PM(UTC)
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James wrote:
But Adam lived in the presence of God also, and Yahweh continued to have a loving relationship with him even after teh fall.


but was it a constant presence? The account spoke of Yahweh walking with Adam in the evening. If there is a specific time for Yahweh to walk with Adam, would that mean that Yah's presence wasn't 100% around at all times? It seems He came and left...

Also - "Eve" had to remember what Yah had said to her when being deceived by the serpent... if He was around at all times, wouldn't or couldn't she have just asked Him? Also, would the serpent have sprung the question on her, if Yah was manifest with them?
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline kp  
#6 Posted : Thursday, November 1, 2007 4:19:11 AM(UTC)
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As it so happens, I began Volume II of The Owner's Manual with a discussion of this very thing. (It's not up on the site yet.) Here's what I wrote...

Quote:
(614) Don’t desire the knowledge of evil. “Then Yahweh, God, took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And Yahweh, God, commanded the man, saying, ‘Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’” (Genesis 2:15-17) Adam and his bride were given an enclosed, protected environment called Eden (from the Hebrew root ‘adan, meaning enjoyment or pleasure) in which to live. It was quite literally “paradise”—a word that means “a walled garden.” Here, sheltered and provided for in every way, they were set apart from the animal kingdom (including any proto-hominids Yahweh had introduced into the biosphere) by God’s gift of the neshamah—the “breath of life” (Genesis 2:7). This made humans unique: in addition to having a soul (nephesh) which made our bodies alive (like all animals), the neshamah gave us the capacity for spiritual life, that is, the ability to be indwelled by and respond to the eternal Spirit of God.

In this perfect environment, Adam and Chavvah (Eve) already had the knowledge of good—it was all they knew, for evil was kept at bay by God’s provision and presence. Yahweh had provided this paradise for them because of His love: in fact, we were unique among His creatures in having been created for no other purpose than to share a loving relationship with Him. But having created animals and angels, Yahweh knew that love came with a catch: in order for love to be given, it must be possible for it to be withheld. Love requires choice; in order for the concept to have any meaning, it must be possible to choose not to love.

Animals have no capacity for real spiritual love. Without a neshamah, they operate purely on instinct, emotion, and intellect, no matter how much devotion, loyalty, or affection they might display. On the other hand, though angels do have the requisite spiritual nature, Yahweh created them without the privilege of choice. They’re like soldiers in an army who, though capable of autonomous action, are not given the prerogative of disregarding their commander’s instructions. Like any soldier, of course, they have the capability to disobey, but not the legal right. If they do, they become rebels, outlaws, demons whom Yahweh will incarcerate when it suits His purpose. Without the privilege of choice, the concept of love is meaningless for angels; and for animals without the capacity for spiritual life, it is equally meaningless. Man is the only created being with both the capacity and the privilege of choosing to reciprocate God’s love. It is what we were made for.


Which brings us back to Eden. Why did Yahweh place the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the center of the garden if He didn’t want Adam and Eve to eat from it? Because He wanted to give them a simple, binary way to demonstrate their trust. If you trust Me to provide for all your needs, then obey My voice in this one small matter. Your choice will reveal your love for Me, for it will reveal your understanding and acceptance of my love for you. Chavvah thought she was trading innocence for wisdom. In reality, she was exchanging her innocence for mere experience—a bad bargain however you slice it. As we would learn much later, “The reverence for Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding [binah: discernment, insight].” (Proverbs 9:10) Experiential knowledge of evil, on the other hand, leads only to death.

We shouldn’t gloss over the apparent contradiction of the warning, “In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Adam and Chavvah both went on to live very long lives—Adam lived to be 930 years old! So did God lie? No. Physical death (the separation of the soul/nephesh from the body) was only a metaphor for the more serious sort of death about which Yahweh was warning them: spiritual death, the separation of His Spirit from their neshamah. That happened immediately, and life could only be restored, it turned out, through the shedding of innocent blood.


kp
Offline James  
#7 Posted : Thursday, November 1, 2007 5:04:06 AM(UTC)
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KP

This is very much my line of thought on this, almost as though our understanding of free will needs to be modified to understand what Yah means by it. The Free Will we have is the will to Love our Reject Yah with out fear of punishment, a concept that 2-door belivers can't grasp. If we reject Yah, he does not punish us as the death of soul is the natural consequence of living. If you are dying and refuse the cure, the doctor is not punishing you.

Am I understanding you right KP?
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline kp  
#8 Posted : Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:10:23 AM(UTC)
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Well put, James:

Quote:
If you are dying and refuse the cure, the doctor is not punishing you.


We need to comprehend the revealing statement Yahshua made to Nicodemus: "He who believes [i.e., trusts] in Him [the Son of God] is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already..." (John 3:18) Yahshua is telling us what the "default" is---He is not saying anything about dispensing wrath, only describing a condition that exists naturally in our mortal state. Living under any kind of condemnation is, of course, a bad thing, but we must remember that there is rejection and then there is REJECTION. That is, merely failing to make a good choice is a rejection of God's love, a failure which confirms our state of condemnation. But actively preventing others from choosing to reciprocate Yahweh's love is rejection of a totally different kind. It is evidence of having been "born of satan," of being what Yahshua called "a brood of vipers." This, like being "born from above" (John 3:7) ensures eternal existence, for it reveals a spiritual indwelling. But unlike the abundant and eternal life that results from the indwelling with Yahweh's spirit, it is an existence that "abides in death"---door number three, if you will---a sharing of the eternal fate of one's father, satan.

I do feel the urge to nitpick a little, however, James. You wrote, "If we reject Yah, he does not punish us, as the death of soul is the natural consequence of living." Actually, it's the natural consequence of failing to live---or more precisely, of never having been born (in spiritual terms). I knew what you meant, of course---our mortal lives end when our souls are separated from our bodies---but we need to be circumspect in our word choices if we wish to avoid causing confusion.

kp
Offline James  
#9 Posted : Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:24:30 AM(UTC)
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kp wrote:

I do feel the urge to nitpick a little, however, James. You wrote, "If we reject Yah, he does not punish us, as the death of soul is the natural consequence of living." Actually, it's the natural consequence of failing to live---or more precisely, of never having been born (in spiritual terms). I knew what you meant, of course---our mortal lives end when our souls are separated from our bodies---but we need to be circumspect in our word choices if we wish to avoid causing confusion.

kp

Thanks for the rewording, I try to be as clear as possible, not alway able to as you see.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
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