I think that the 'born of water' reference with Nicodemus was refering to the waters of childbirth. But I would like to know how the mikvah and 'baptism' of Yahowsha figures in.

So my sister in law baptized her kids this weekend, and there has been a bit of a stirring in the family since Patty and I refused to attend. This has lead to a couple of interesting and many pointless conversations on the topic with my family.

Since this is a Greek text issue and I don't have a lot of experience in the Greek I thought I would pass a couple of the questions that I have to you and see what your thoughts were.

First you said on the BTR show last week that Yahowsha never baptized anyone. As far as baptism as a religious ritual this is 100% correct. Baptizo should never have been transliterated, and should have bee rendered immerse/immersed in every instance. Translating the word correctly explains almost every instance of the use in a perfect way. So the question is then did Yahowsha immerse anyone, specifically in water. There is only one spot I can find which suggests this and that is in Yahowchanan chapter 3 after the conversation with Nicodemus it says in verse 23 that Yahowsha came into Yauwdah and was immersing. This is followed by some of Yahowchanan the immersers followers coming to him and telling them that Yahowsha is also immersing. In this context it seems that Yahowsha was performing water immersions at this time. I have checked the Greek, to the best of my limited ability (my library is really geared to Hebrew), and this seems to be accurate, and the chapter is extant in both P66 and P75. So am I reading this right?

My second question is I can't find anywhere were Yahowchanan was instructed to immerse people in water. Was he? And why was he or why was he instructed to? He was sent to proclaim the arrival of the Ma'aseyah, but where did water immersion come from, it is not instructed in the Towrah as far as I can tell. It seems Yahowchanan did it, Yahowsha may have done it for awhile, and then it became a custom among the disciples, as we see Shimown instructing it. A little research shows that it was a very common pagan practice throughout history and in much of Greek religion of the time, and it is in the Talmud. I understand the link between the cleansing nature of water, but something that is so pagan why would Yahowah have Yahowchanan do it, and why would Yahowsha have it done to him? While writing this the idea occurs to me that Yahowchanan spoke of how he immersed in water, but the one coming after him would immerse in the set apart spirit. So then Yahowchanan's water immersion was a symbolic forerunner to immersion in the spirit, but then what of people like Dowd who were immersed in Yah's spirit long before Yahowsha? I am always bothered by things in the Greek text additive to the Towrah, and this seems like one of them.

Sorry if I got a bit long winded I am thinking this out still as I write and so kind of using you as a sounding board.

Thanks,
James

James,

Yes, it says that he was immersing, but nothing about why he may have done so or what He may have claimed it meant. Further, context is everything. It follows the Disciples' most revealing accounting of spiritual birth via the discussion with Nicodemus - water then spirit - meaning mortal conception for all and spiritual birth for those who act upon the Torah's Covenant. So He demonstrated the proper order of things. He began with water to demonstrate cleansing of mortals (with no commentary or commitment) and then He facilitated the Covenant promises via the Miqra'ey with great commentary and commitment.

Verse 25 speaks of "purification" which is the symbolism of water when immersed in it. Verse 27 then tells us that only what comes from heaven matters, and thus demotes the effect of the earthly stream to inconsequential for anything beyond the symbolism. And you'll notice that there isn't a single statement recorded from Yahowsha' at this time regarding immersion, and therefore it cannot be tied to anything other than the previous conversation with Nicodemus and the subsequent conversation with John the Immerser and his disciples. Moreover your quote is the relevant one... "Yahowchanan spoke of how he immersed in water, but the one coming after him would immerse in the set apart spirit."

I think that Yahowcanan picked this place because it represents the place the Chosen People crossed the Jordan to enter the Promised Land. It is directly below Mount Mowryah, and thus reveals its diminished importance. And Yisrael was filthy with religion and had to come clean to receive Yah. So the symbolism of cleaning off the muck of their infidelity was perfect, especially in this place.

I don't trust the Greek texts, even when we have relatively old manuscripts. So when I read something that is inconsistent with Torah in the highly edited Greek texts I tend to discard it, especially if it is in the disciple's voice as is your example with Shimown. The Torah is more than sufficient.

Good questions and excellent research, JB.

Yada