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Offline Heretic Steve  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2007 11:37:48 AM(UTC)
Heretic Steve
Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

I find this whole scenario rather perplexing. Quick recap. Samuel is dead, Saul is facing the Phillistines and things look grim. Saul's erratic/rebellious behavior has alienated him from Yah. No Samuel, No Yah, so Saul consults a medium-the Witch of Endor. According to the NIV, she conjurs/summons up Samuel who is then distressed at being disturbed. Then Samuel tells Saul he's toast. Saul fights the Phillistines and Saul is indeed toast.
Sounds simple enough at first glance, but closer analysis proves puzzling to me.
First of all, was it really Samuel who appeared to Saul? If it was, this leads to even more perplextion. Divination was a serious bust. Would Yah actually allow Samuel to be a party to this sort of thing and thus indirectly be a party Himself? When the rich knucklehead asked Abraham if he could return from Sheol and inform his brothers of the fate that awaited them if they did'nt repent, Abe said no.
Ok then, lets say it was'nt Samuel. Then who/what was it? Satan? A demon? Can demons, (spirits), actually become visible? If so, why don't they do so more often? This would save all the fortune teller/spiritist types the hassle of smoke and mirrors and lend credibility to their craft and thus divination. It seems to me that Satan would'nt pass up the opportunity to do this sort of thing if he could.
If I recollect accurately, (always a dangerous assumption, hahaha), I can't think of anywhere in scrip where spirits, other than angels, became visible to humans.
So then, what gives? Have I misread the passage? I always thought that the witch was surprised that the apparition actually appeared and became frightened. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps she was frightened only of Saul, (afraid he'd execute her for being a spiritist), yet she later fixes him some chow after being reassured by Saul she was in no danger from him, (why did'nt Saul reassure her in the first place instead of going to the trouble of the disguise?).
That being the case, did the witch perform some sort of sleight of hand thing and decieve Saul into believing he was seeing an apparition? One that talked? A visible AND audio sleight of hand? Pretty good trick if so.
This leads to yet another conundrum. The apparition told Saul he was gonna die, and the Israeli troops defeated. Did Saul believe the apparition? If so, then it appears Saul committed suicide as well as not taking steps to avoid the deaths of his sons. Had I been Saul, I would've said, "Hey David, you take over". Then I would've grabbed my sons and headed to the hills in the opposite direction from the Phillistines.
I dunno. Like I said, it's a puzzlement to me.

Edited by user Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:44:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline Icy  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2007 1:31:27 PM(UTC)
Icy
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I have heard before that it was actually a demon. But, you do raise a valid point if that is the case. I have another idea though, read this version from the ISR scriptures:
Quote:
1Sa 28:13 And the sovereign said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Sha’ul, “I saw a spirit coming up out of the earth.”
1Sa 28:14 And he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Sha’ul knew that it was Shemu’ĕl, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did obeisance.


Look, he is asking her what she sees, which would lead me to believe that he doesn't see anything? Then he asks what it looks like, again this is because he doesn't see anything. So, how did he knew it was Shemu'el? The word "yada" for knew here, could also mean "feel". So, perhaps he "felt" that it was Shemu'el. After this, he bows his face to the ground or, as the word also mean, "prostrated" himself. I see this as he stayed this way. Shemu'el never told him to stand up. So, he couldn't see the figure, and he kept he face to the ground anyway. I would assume that his guards did the same. If he couldn't see the figure, then why should we assume that he could hear it speak? If the woman had to tell him what she saw, the would it also make sense that she was telling him what she saw was saying? No, it doesn't say that she spoke, but that is not really necessary, since the idea is not that she was speaking to Saul, but rather intermidiating. So, I think she is just like all of the mediums now adays, she was just making it all up. If she didn't say something, she was likely to be killed or at least imprisoned.
Offline Icy  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2007 5:03:37 PM(UTC)
Icy
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I realize that it says Shemu'el speaks. But, I am thinking that he was speaking "through the medium". I think it is redundant to record, "then the medum said that Shemu'el said. . ." That is her job description, so why say it again?
Offline Icy  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2007 3:50:54 AM(UTC)
Icy
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 641
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Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
As a further example. Say for instance that you believe that mediums really can speak to the dead. "Knowing" this, you decide you want to speak to your dead father. So, you go to a medium. While there, you don't see or hear anything, but you really believe the medium speaks with the dead and she communicates to you what they say. So, she tells you she sees your father. She describes someone vaguely, and "knowing" she can speak with the dead, you assume it is your father. Then, she begins to tell you what he is saying, and you "know" that she is telling you what your father is saying to you.

Now, when it is all done and you go back to your friends and tell them about it, how do you relay the story? Do you tell them " The medium said my father said. . .", or do you instead tell them, "My father said. . ." If you were skeptic, you might say the first, but if you really believe and you "know" that the medium was speaking with the dead, then you would most certainly say the second.
Offline Noach  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2007 8:07:04 PM(UTC)
Noach
Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127


Yeah, Icy's got this one nailed. He's all over it. Good explanation. This is exactly what false mediums do today. Nothing is different. Great question Steve. Shaul thought he was communicating to Shemuel directly through the witch. She could have even played the part that she was inhabited by Shemuel. Shaul, who had completely turned away from Yah at this point was more than willing to believe anything this witch told him.

Noah
Offline Heretic Steve  
#6 Posted : Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:59:03 AM(UTC)
Heretic Steve
Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

Good insight, Icy. Noach's right, you nailed it.

Swalchy, you're correct. Sometimes I sorta wing it for the sake of brevity. Maybe not always the best idea...

Thanks all for the replies.
If not us, who? If not now, when?
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