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Offline needhelp  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:32:09 AM(UTC)
needhelp
Joined: 5/19/2011(UTC)
Posts: 197
Location: US


Hope this is the right place for this. What do ya'll think about
Chawah? Is she saved or not? Adam was right there with her
and took the fruit willingly. I don't think the snake could have
gotten him to take it without her. We don't know for sure how
long he was in the garden before her, because time didn't
start until they were evicted. But he apparently knew Yahowah
well. Back to Chawah, doesn't her persuading Adam to eat
the fruit make her one of Satan's allies, drawing Adam away
from Yahowah? Does that mean she is separated from Yahowah
forever? There were no Passover Miqra then. No Matsah, no
Bikurym, etc. Was she saved? How? What about Adam?
I've read many theories about this, but am still confused.
Could they have had children who didn't eat the fruit, and
we're not told about them because it doesn't matter now?
They stayed with Yahowah. Did Adam and Chawah rise with
the saints of Matthw 27? What about Moseh and Abraham?
Chawah actively got Adam to eat, taking him away from
Yahowah. Does the fact that he chose to eat, using his freewill,
absolve her from alliance with satan? Was she not the first
convert of satan? Are women held to a different rule than men?
Is it harder for women to know Yahowah than men? Is Chawah
Yahowah's daughter or not. Condemned or saved?
Offline dajstill  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 6:31:21 AM(UTC)
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Did she persuade him? It is hard to figure out because in verse 3:6 it says "And she also gave to her husband with her, and he ate". Was he standing there next to her? Did he try to stop her?

I also find it interesting that it says in verse 7: "Then the yes of both of them were opened ..."

Were her eyes not opened until Adam ate? Did she say "Hey, I ate it and I didn't die, so you eat it". Who gave her the instructions on not eating because she got confused right from the start when she said she wasn't even supposed to touch the tree.

Yahowah doesn't seem to be overly harsh with Chawah and treat her like a child of satan. She credits Yahowah with providing her Seth. So, I don't really see her as being an "adversary" with satan so much as being beguiled by him.
Offline Steve in PA  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:06:17 PM(UTC)
Steve in PA
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Satan...??? I may be opening a can of worms here but I've starting studying this issue and I'm looking for some clarity and understanding.

Satan basically means, "the adversary". Idk but maybe in Eden animals can communicate with humans...? All it says in Genesis 3... "Now the serpent was more crafty than any other wild animal which Yahowah God had made. He said to the woman..."
???

It doesn't say, "Halal ben Shachar was more crafty than any other wild animal which Yahowah God had made. He said to the woman..."
It doesn't say, "Satan was more crafty than any other wild animal which Yahowah God had made. He said to the woman..."
It doesn't say, "The adversary was more crafty than any other wild animal which Yahowah God had made. He said to the woman..."

I'm thinking we give way to much credit to some mythical "satan" who rivals Yah and is His arch enemy. Think about it... sure maybe some spiritual being Yah created fell out with Him because of pride and disobedience (melak/saba' do not have freewill) yet that same being is under Yah's control. Yah has no rival.

I'm finding some very interesting passages in the Tanakh regarding "the adversary"...
Offline Steve in PA  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:40:19 PM(UTC)
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Offline James  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:48:20 AM(UTC)
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I think a lot of this was addressed on the forum before I will see if I can find the thread.

needshelp wrote:
Hope this is the right place for this. What do ya'll think about
Chawah? Is she saved or not?


I would say yes. Just as Adam was reconciled so was Chawah. The very first thing Yah did was cloth them in coats of skin. I would be willing to bet that the cloths were made of lamb skin. We see Yah go on to have a relationship with both of them, so I am inclined to say the relationship was reconciled, once again with Yah doing all the work.

wrote:
Adam was right there with her
and took the fruit willingly. I don't think the snake could have
gotten him to take it without her. We don't know for sure how
long he was in the garden before her, because time didn't
start until they were evicted. But he apparently knew Yahowah
well. Back to Chawah, doesn't her persuading Adam to eat
the fruit make her one of Satan's allies, drawing Adam away
from Yahowah?


It makes her the adversaries stooge, but not necessarily an ally. Many who were duped by Christianity wen out evangelizing and spreading Christianity and then later came to a relationship with Yah once they realized that it was wrong, even Yada used to be a Christian. So why would it be any different for Chawah. She was beguiled by the Serpent, she did wrong, but she turned from it and returned to Yah, and judging from the narrative it seems to me that Yah embraced her and Adam, they could no longer be in Eden, but they continued to have a relationship with Him.

wrote:
Does that mean she is separated from Yahowah
forever? There were no Passover Miqra then. No Matsah, no
Bikurym, etc. Was she saved? How? What about Adam?


As I stated above I am inclined to see Yah making them coats of skin, which would have necessitated the killing of an animal, as Yah making a sacrifice to atone for their missing the mark.

wrote:
I've read many theories about this, but am still confused.
Could they have had children who didn't eat the fruit, and
we're not told about them because it doesn't matter now?


Quite possibly, but as you stated it doesn’t matter, and if it did Yah would have told us.

wrote:
They stayed with Yahowah. Did Adam and Chawah rise with
the saints of Matthw 27? What about Moseh and Abraham?


I would say yes on all accounts.

wrote:
Chawah actively got Adam to eat, taking him away from
Yahowah. Does the fact that he chose to eat, using his freewill,
absolve her from alliance with satan? Was she not the first
convert of satan? Are women held to a different rule than men?
Is it harder for women to know Yahowah than men? Is Chawah
Yahowah's daughter or not. Condemned or saved?


Judging from the text she handed him the fruit and he ate, I don’t know that I would describe that as active. Adam made his choice and Chawah hers, you can no more blame Chawah for Adam’s choice as you could Adam for Chawah’s.

I don’t think women are held to different standards than men, there is but one Torah. Is it harder for women to know Yahowah than men? At the risk of angering some, including my wife, I would say yes, by in large. The reason being women are for the most part, I am not speaking of all, more emotionally driven than men. So it is more difficult for a woman to accept that what she believes is untrue than it is for a man. It is more difficult for a woman to put aside how something makes her feel and accept the Truth. Really this is a compliment to all the women here who have come to know Yah, you had to give up a lot more than men do to come to know Yah.

dajstill wrote:
Did she persuade him? It is hard to figure out because in verse 3:6 it says "And she also gave to her husband with her, and he ate". Was he standing there next to her? Did he try to stop her?


This is why I remember that this came up before. When I went through and examined it, it really does seem to indicate that Adam was standing next to her the whole time. It never says she went to get him, or that he arrived, it mentions no time passing at all. So it seems very likely that Adam was standing there the whole time watching, but not saying anything. I can’t say for certain, but that seems to me to be what is written.


wrote:
I also find it interesting that it says in verse 7: "Then the yes of both of them were opened ..."

Were her eyes not opened until Adam ate? Did she say "Hey, I ate it and I didn't die, so you eat it". Who gave her the instructions on not eating because she got confused right from the start when she said she wasn't even supposed to touch the tree.


Another reason I see this as happening rather quickly. She ate, handed it to him and he ate, and their eyes were opened. Not she ate, her eyes were opened, then she found him and he ate and his eyes were open. This all seems to have happened very fast.


wrote:
Yahowah doesn't seem to be overly harsh with Chawah and treat her like a child of satan. She credits Yahowah with providing her Seth. So, I don't really see her as being an "adversary" with satan so much as being beguiled by him.


Agreed. It seems to me that both went on to enjoy a relationship with Yah.

Edited by user Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:34:08 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline James  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:51:40 AM(UTC)
James
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Posts: 2,606
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eh steve wrote:
http://www.wimp.com/huskybaby/


Beautiful dog, Steve, but not sure i see the connection to the topic.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline needhelp  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:06:26 AM(UTC)
needhelp
Joined: 5/19/2011(UTC)
Posts: 197
Location: US

oops, James wrote:
" As I stated above I am inclined to see Yah making them coats of skink"
Isn't a skink a little lizzard with a blue tail? LOL

Really though, Thankx for the input James. Sorry' I don't recall this having
been addressed before. Thankx again
Offline James  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:33:39 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,606
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Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 208 time(s) in 146 post(s)
needhelp wrote:
oops, James wrote:
" As I stated above I am inclined to see Yah making them coats of skink"
Isn't a skink a little lizzard with a blue tail? LOL

Really though, Thankx for the input James. Sorry' I don't recall this having
been addressed before. Thankx again


I'm a computer nerd, that don't mean I can type. BigGrin

I thought it was discussed before a while back, but can't seem to find it now. So perhaps I had the conversation somewhere else and just thought it was here. Maybe I was just talking to myself about it Unsure. Either way don't worry about bringing it up again, a lot of people don't read through the archives so bringing it up again helps everyone.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline needhelp  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:46:18 AM(UTC)
needhelp
Joined: 5/19/2011(UTC)
Posts: 197
Location: US

It would appear my lizard is takinga snooze, zz.
Talk to myself all the time, got a severe case of CRS.
(Can't Remember S---) smile
Offline Steve in PA  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:08:29 AM(UTC)
Steve in PA
Joined: 3/31/2010(UTC)
Posts: 157
Location: PA

Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 3 post(s)
James wrote:
Beautiful dog, Steve, but not sure i see the connection to the topic.


I didn't elaborate on the video but it did tie into what I said above it... I probably should have just edited the post and added it at the bottom instead of making a separate post.
I realize both the dog and that toddler were just mimicking each other... yet it tied into my thought on maybe Adam and Chawah, in Eden, were able to communicate with understanding with all the animals.
Again... in Genesis 3 it only says a serpent talked with Chawah... it didn't say an adversarial fallen melak/saba' came as a serpent to mislead her into doing the one thing they were asked/told not to do.

When Yah spoke to and cursed the serpent He spoke to it including it in the classification of beasts/animals as if that was what it was... a snake/serpent.
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