Someone be a dear and once a week send me a message that says "don't argue with Christians, facts mean nothing".

Had a heated debate with 2 people I would normally think are level headed, fairly rational people - until you get on the subject of religion. It started when one posted something negative (and true) about the Catholic Church. I pointed out the irony that the Protestant Church was actually quite similar in a number of ways - and thus the debate began.

How it ended. Me being informed that "too much education has led me down a dark path", that I had obviously studied a lot, but I should not have studied because it affected my faith. Of course, I pointed out that I didn't need "faith", I could actually know truth. But, the kicker was the final comment before I gave up:

"I don't care what kind of facts, truth, or proof you give me, I will allow nothing to shake my faith."

OKAY - that is just stupid!!! Whenever I debate with Christians I only discuss things that are easily verifiable, and I use sources even from people that are still Christians to provide balance. But there is no way you can deal with someone who tells you no matter what proof you can provide - they still won't believe it! UGH!!

They even started with the circular and false strawman that because there is proof of inaccurate translations and verses that were added and taken away, I was saying that "nothing could be known". They then went to the "the word of God is infallible because God in infallible" And finally they went to the "God would not allow his message to be corrupted" argument.

No amount of reason would penetrate the thick skin of "faith". I would point out something that was completely verifiable and they would simply move to the next point, never addresses the issue. Then, they just started making stuff up! It got so bad that one person actually inferred that "unicorn" means "firstling". When I pointed out this wasn't seen as accurate, even with KJV authorities, they just moved on to more stuff they were making up.

The Messianic Christian was the worst which was the most surprising. She believed saying "Jesus" was just semantics, God = Jesus and he died on the cross and we needed his blood for redemption. Pointed out the entire work of Pesach, First Fruits, and Unleavened Bread fell on death ears. She could not accept that God can't die. She could not accept that Yahowsha' was a Set Apart piece of YHWH, but not the entirety of Him because Yah is so awesome He can't be contained. She could not accept that everyone needed Yahowsha' and that the animal sacrifices found in scripture did not indicate people were saved or forgiven via animal sacrifice. She believed (like most Christians) that God changed His mind and at first He accepted animal sacrifices, but after "Jesus" no sacrifices were needed. She believed the torah was flawed (via Paul) and that God was someone more kind now that "Jesus died" so all you need is faith! I honestly felt like banging my head into a rock after the conversation!

I think why its so hard to speak with Christians is because they believe you are talking about the same things, just using "semantics". They cannot understand that Yahowsha' and Jesus are NOT the same. If someone believes "in Jesus" they tend to hold an entire set of beliefs that are inconsistent with someone that believes in the work of Yahowsha'. They don't understand that the "trinity" is not the same things as looking at Yahowsha' and the Ruach Qudesh as Set Apart pieces of Yahowah Himself. They don't understand that the work of Pesach, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits is not the same thing as "dying on a cross". It's the similar language that makes it so difficult to navigate a conversation. Add on that their absolute need for their entire "bible" to be absolutely infallible - irregardless of any evidence to the contrary and reasoned debate is not at all possible.

One thing I do gain from these debates though, I learn how to better verbalize the things that I know. Sometimes things can get a bit muddled in my head as I try to piece together things that cannot not be known with certainty due to the flawed documents we have. However, I know the things that make a Covenant relationship with YHWH and being a part of His Family possible. That is the important part.

dajstill,

I am fortunate (as it turns out) to have been removed from church routine from time to time and been placed in circumstances that have allowed me to question religion. Recently, I attempted to engage with a friend. He was my best-man, and I was his wedding photographer. We both studied at the same seminary (not at the same time). I thought I was presenting the most palatable and irrefutable information concerning things God loves, hates and highly esteems – just some fascinating information to test the waters centering on God’s name and why xtians don’t speak it.

He immediately agreed that it is a worthy interest and that he knows God’s name is ‘Jehovah’ but is comfortable keeping that to himself in his religious environment (CoC preacher). After only a few exchanges, he abruptly lost interest and cut me off completely “until I come back to the truth.” In other words, he will not even discuss theological matters with me until I agree with him … more or less.

He asserted that I was incompetent as a linguist and could not know God’s real name after I stepped on his toes a little by advising him that ‘James’ was not ‘Jacob’ but ‘Ya’acob’. He didn’t like being corrected at all (as he is a native Spanish speaker and certainly "knows more than I do about the Greek/Spanish similarities" … completely irrelevant). I explained that the man was not Greek and did not have a Greek name and that there just might be some significance for us in his real actual Hebrew name.

It is likely that we will never communicate again.

My main concern is for family/friends who are steeped in Babylon. I don’t want to burn any (more) bridges before I can formulate some approach that will stimulate questions instead of presenting answers. Apparently, xtians are not interested in honest answers to questions they aren’t asking … as you have discovered.



Yep.