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Offline vic108  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, July 4, 2012 2:50:30 PM(UTC)
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This is something that I have always wondered:

Who is Melchizedek?

Just a priest?

And while the Scriptures mention who begot whom, from where did Melchizedek come?

From WIKI:

Dead Sea Scrolls

11Q13 (11QMelch) is a fragment (that can be dated to the end of the 2nd or start of the 1st century BC) of a text about Melchizedek found in Cave 11 at Qumran in the Israeli Dead Sea area and which comprises part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. In this eschatological text, Melchizedek is seen as a divine being and Hebrew titles as Elohim are applied to him. According to this text Melchizedek will proclaim the "Day of Atonement" and he will atone for the people who are predestined to him. He also will judge the peoples.
"May your wisdom equal your zeal and your courage atone for your ignorance."
Offline dajstill  
#2 Posted : Thursday, July 5, 2012 7:47:53 AM(UTC)
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I really like this guys treatment of the subject:

http://www.judaismvschri...ife_spans_patriarchs.htm

he posits with some pretty good proof that Melchezedek is a title, not a name. And that the Melchizedek (the righteous ruler) at the time of Abram was Shem (son of Noah). The dates check out and this information is also found in the book of Jasher I believe.
Offline Richard  
#3 Posted : Thursday, July 5, 2012 8:53:44 AM(UTC)
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Thank you for that link, dajstill. Outstanding information.
Offline James  
#4 Posted : Friday, July 6, 2012 5:24:21 AM(UTC)
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All we know for sure of who Malki-tsedeq was is what is in scripture anything else is speculation.

Originally Posted by: Ba' Go to Quoted Post
18-20And Malki-tsedeq (malki-tsedeq – King of righteousness, from malak king, and tsedeq righteousness, vindication, justice, uprightness, that which is in accordance with the standard) King (malak – governmental head of a kingdom, often in ancient government the king embodied political, social, religious, and military authority) of Salem (shalem – salvation, that which completes and finishes, rendering the payment in full; that which brings peace, prosperity, and well-being; that which represents a voluntary sacrifice to requite so as to repay the debt, returning and reestablishing the alliance of friendship; that which perfects and makes whole, rendering the beneficiary unharmed and at peace; that which provides compensation, recompensing damage incurred; that which restores, makes amends, and reinstitutes the fellowship) brought forth (yatsa’ - delivered and produced) bread (lechem) and wine (yayin - naturally processed, fermented grape juice, in excess amounts can cause drunkenness), and he was a Kohen (kohen – priest, cleric or minister) to God Most High (el-elyon - a title for the true God with a focus on him being supreme, and shows high status), and blessed him (barak - knelt down to greet him and lift him up), saying (‘amar), ‘Blessed (barak) be ‘Abram, to God Most High (el-elyon - a title for the true God with a focus on him being supreme, and shows high status), creator (qanah – on who brought forth, as in giving birth, one who owns, one who has purchased, posses and has acquired) of the spiritual world (samayim - the heavens, and the abode of stars) and the material realm (`erets - matter, the physical and natural world). And Blessed (barak) be God Most High (el-elyon - a title for the true God with a focus on him being supreme, and shows high status) who relationally (asher) delivered (magan – handed over, bestowed, and presented) your enemies (tsar – foes, adversaries, and opponents) into your hands (yad - a metaphor for individual power, control, care, capacity, and strength), and give (nathan – set, commit, entrust, deliver, and bestow in a healthy and enduring fashion) to Him a tenth (maasrah - the setting aside a tenth of goods or money given as a gift or offering) from all (kol).’


The only other mention being in Psalm 110, where there is a debate as to rather malki-tsedeq is a title or a name.

In the Ba'reshiyth verse I think it is clear that it is a name, as it is followed by the title Malak. If it where a title it would be equivalent of saying Governor, President of America, Priest of the Catholic Church all in a row and never attributing those titles to anyone. I see no reason to believe that it's use here is as anything other than a name.

As for the link to Shem, outside of rabbinic sources I see no evidence of this. It is talked of in the Talmud, but I put as much stock in that as I do Dianetics. And from what I gather the Book of Jasher is of Rabbinic origin as well, the oldest reference we have to it dates to 1565 C.E. And the oldest manuscript to about a century later. So I wouldn't put much stock in it either. I think that if Shem where Malki-tsdeq that there would be some reference to it at some point in Scripture.

I would say that who he is is irrelevant. If it where relevant then we would have been told.
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Offline Steve in PA  
#5 Posted : Saturday, July 7, 2012 4:40:59 AM(UTC)
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I don't know that I agree with this, the part saying Abraham "paid" a tithe... from TWOT...

Abram paid a tithe of his war booty to Melchizedek after receiving a priestly benediction from him (Gen 14:20; cf. Heb 7, esp. v. 4), and Jacob vowed a tithe to God at Bethel following his dream of a ladder leading to the presence of Yahweh (Gen 28:22).

Allen, R. B. (1999). 1711 עשׂר. In R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer, Jr. & B. K. Waltke (Eds.), Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer, Jr. & B. K. Waltke, Ed.) (electronic ed.) (703). Chicago: Moody Press.

... whoever Melchizedek was... weather Yah Himself diminished or one of His messengers... I think He blessed Abraham with some of everything He had. I've heard modern *cough "teachers" of "judianity" use this con-cept to justify asking for tithes and offerings for the *cough "work" they do. What a load of pe'resh!
Offline James  
#6 Posted : Monday, July 9, 2012 3:02:29 AM(UTC)
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In the Hebrew it is very unclear as to who gave who a tenth, there is not mention of a tithe at all maasrah means a tenth. There are four possibilities:
1. Abram gave Malki-tsdeq a tenth.
2. Malki-tsdeq gave Abe a tenth.
3. Abram gave Yahowah a tenth.
4. Malki-tsdeq gave Yahowah a tenth.

In the context I would tend toward saying that it is Malki-tsdeq giving a tenth to Abram or Yahowah, since the previous portion of the text dealt with Malki-tsdeq speaking to Abram, to conclude with Abe giving Malki-tsdeq a tenth would not fit, if that where the intention it would more likely read directly and Abram gave to him a tenth from all. As Malki-tsdeq is speaking to Abram it seems that most likely he gave a tenth to Abram, but since he is speaking of Yahowah it is possible that he gave a tenth to Yahowah. Reexamining my translation I think I will edited to make Him lowercase since looking at it now I am inclined to say that Malki-tsdeq is giving a tenth to Abram, but will footnote it with alternatives.
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Offline needhelp  
#7 Posted : Monday, July 9, 2012 6:47:45 AM(UTC)
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I understand your translation to be: Malki-tsedeq saying,
blessed be Abram to God, and blessed be God who delivered
your enemies into your hands, and Abram give to Him a tenth.
As in give Yahowah the tenth.

"And Malki-tsedeq King of Salem brought forth bread and wine, and he was a Kohen to God Most High , and blessed
him, saying, ‘Blessed be ‘Abram, to God Most High , creator of the spiritual world and the material realm. And Blessed be God Most High who relationally delivered your enemies into your hands, and give to Him a tenth from all.’ "

I think that's how it reads without amplification.
I am known to be wrong often.
Offline James  
#8 Posted : Monday, July 9, 2012 9:21:31 AM(UTC)
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needhelp wrote:
I understand your translation to be: Malki-tsedeq saying,
blessed be Abram to God, and blessed be God who delivered
your enemies into your hands, and Abram give to Him a tenth.
As in give Yahowah the tenth.

"And Malki-tsedeq King of Salem brought forth bread and wine, and he was a Kohen to God Most High , and blessed
him, saying, ‘Blessed be ‘Abram, to God Most High , creator of the spiritual world and the material realm. And Blessed be God Most High who relationally delivered your enemies into your hands, and give to Him a tenth from all.’ "

I think that's how it reads without amplification.
I am known to be wrong often.


Quote:
And Malki-tsedeq King of Salem brought forth bread and wine, and he was a Kohen to God Most, and blessed him, saying, ‘Blessed be ‘Abram, to God Most High, creator of the spiritual world and the material realm. And Blessed be God Most High who relationally delivered your enemies into your hands, and give to Him a tenth from all.


Would be the unamplified translation, but for the reasons stated above I am now seeing this as him lowercase meaning Malki-tsedeq gave a tenth to Abram.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline needhelp  
#9 Posted : Monday, July 9, 2012 9:45:12 AM(UTC)
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I'm sorry, but I don't understand why.Does it have something
to do with the words themselves? It appears to be saying
blessed be Abram to God ,giving Abram God's blessing
and blessed be God for delivering
Abram's enemies and give God the tenth. Are there tenses
and meanings in the words I'm not seeing?
Offline James  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, July 10, 2012 3:07:43 AM(UTC)
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As there are no quotation marks in Hebrew it is impossible to say for certain rather what Malki-tsdeq ended with 'And Blessed be God Most High who relationally delivered your enemies into your hands' or goes on to say 'and give to Him a tenth from all.' Both are possible.

If it ends with the first then the final portion is a sentence separated from the statement, in which case you have to determine who is giving a tenth to who, and I would say that it is Malki-tsdeq giving a tenth to Abram.

If the quote is to go on to include the final bit then Malki-tsdeq is telling/asking Abram to give a tenth to Yahowah.

In the context I think both can be argued equally. What I think would be very hard to do is to render this as most religious types are want to do and that is Abram paying a tenth to Malki-tsdeq. I would say that it is either Malki-tsdeq asking/telling Abram to give a tenth to Yahowah, or it is Malki-tsdeq giving a tenth to Abram. In the next portion we see Abram refusing to take anything from the King of Sodom, so one could use that to argue that he wouldn't have taken it from Malki-tsdeq either, but the issue with that is that Malki-tsdeq was said to be a Kohen to God, with Yahowah being implied, and the King of Sodom is not. So this could easily be Malki-tsdeq giving Abram a tenth, and then the King of Sodom attempting to one up that, but not for good reason and so Abram refused it.

I would say there is a 50/50 chance of either of these renderings being the correct one.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline needhelp  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, July 10, 2012 4:10:02 AM(UTC)
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Thank you. It makes more sense now.
Offline Molly  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, July 11, 2012 11:16:52 AM(UTC)
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Hi vic108-

According to the book The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop, Shem, the son of Noah, killed Tammuz. Shem would have still been alive in the time of Abraham. As the story goes, Tammuz was killed by a boar. Horns are symbols of power; the boar's tusks symbolize the power of the mouth, or word. Having destroyed the adversary, Shem became Melchizedek, King of Righteousness.

Or, so the story goes.

Molly
Offline cgb2  
#13 Posted : Thursday, July 12, 2012 7:25:06 AM(UTC)
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Seems the only reason Melchezadek is a big deal is from the book of hebrews, and how religious clerics also twist it to fleece a tenth from their flock.
I've read, but haven't verified, that a major thesis in hebrews is also bunk - Due to the clues given and Yah's instructions of Lewy marriage that Marriam had both lines of King and Priest from her parents.
Offline cgb2  
#14 Posted : Saturday, August 4, 2012 5:50:49 AM(UTC)
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cgb2 wrote:
.... I've read, but haven't verified, that a major thesis in hebrews is also bunk - Due to the clues given and Yah's instructions of Lewy marriage that Marriam had both lines of King and Priest from her parents.


Ah, found the article again:
http://www.judaismvschri...problem_with_hebrews.htm
Offline vic108  
#15 Posted : Monday, August 27, 2012 7:59:51 PM(UTC)
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if Shem was Melchizedek , why would Scripture state:

“For this Melchizedek, king of Salem ,… without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.” Hebrews 7:1-3

Would not Scripture state that Melchizedek (Shem) was the son of Noah?
"May your wisdom equal your zeal and your courage atone for your ignorance."
Offline cgb2  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2012 3:15:02 AM(UTC)
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vic108 wrote:
if Shem was Melchizedek , why would Scripture state:

“For this Melchizedek, king of Salem ,… without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.” Hebrews 7:1-3

Would not Scripture state that Melchizedek (Shem) was the son of Noah?


Most if not all on this forum do not consider the NT "scripture" because all its authors considered the TaNaK "scripture". Also Paul was a false prophet and liar, and don't really care to determine what portions are half truths, distortions and lies on minor issues.
Offline vic108  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2012 6:14:55 PM(UTC)
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i'm refering to the "old testament" also...

from wiki:

Melchizedek is mentioned only once more in the Old Testament when King David refers to him, and the future earthly rule of the Messiah, in the Psalms:

"A Psalm of David"
"The Lord says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool." The Lord sends forth from Zion [see Who, What or Where Is Zion? and Daughter of Zion] your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your foes! Your people will offer themselves freely on the day you lead your host upon the holy mountains. From the womb of the morning like dew your youth will come to you. The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, "You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek." (Psalm 110:1-4 RSV)
"May your wisdom equal your zeal and your courage atone for your ignorance."
Offline lassie1865  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:17:02 AM(UTC)
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How exactly does this Psalm 110:1-4 read in the DSS, or Hebrew? Is it "YHWH says to my King", or??
Offline James  
#19 Posted : Thursday, August 30, 2012 3:06:43 AM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
How exactly does this Psalm 110:1-4 read in the DSS, or Hebrew? Is it "YHWH says to my King", or??


Psalm 110 was not extant in the DSS, so we have nothing of it.

Looking at the Hebrew of it one of the first things I notice is a consistent miss-translation of a word that all translations have in common. In verse 4 almost without exception it gets translated as "You are a priest forever According to the order of Malkitseḏeq." But there is no basis for the words "to the order of" in the Hebrew. It reads al'dib'ra'ti malkitsdeq. al'dib'ra'ti is a compound of 'al and dabrah, 'al has a number of meanings including: on, at, among, before, toward, to, upon, by, against, for, because, concerning, when, during, ... You get the idea. So according is a possible translation, but dabarah does not mean "the order" it means the cause. So it is not the order of Malkitseḏeq, but a priest forever according to Malkitsedeq's cause.

Also keep in mind that Malkitseḏeq means king of righteousness and vindication. Sounds to me like a description of Yahowah. To my thinking this is saying that he will be a priest forever according to Yahowah's cause, that cause being vindication. And it certainly has nothing to do with a priestly order descended from Malkitseḏeq, as I have seen some online try to argue.

The fact is all we know of Malkitseḏeq is what we read in Ba'reshiyth, and that's not much, because he is not that important.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline FredSnell  
#20 Posted : Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:46:20 AM(UTC)
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If that's the case then, it to me appears that YHWH is serving Abraham in this.
Offline vic108  
#21 Posted : Thursday, August 30, 2012 5:37:08 AM(UTC)
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I've always thought that there's more to the story of Melchizedek than what's been revealed...
"May your wisdom equal your zeal and your courage atone for your ignorance."
Offline FredSnell  
#22 Posted : Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:04:30 AM(UTC)
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Looking at your new avatar, you made a change from yesterday I'd say..))

I agree with what you wrote, and in light of what James revealed, it appears that this person is either, or is, God serving man. But like scientist, I barely know a scant 4% of my universe. Maybe the verse about the last becoming first means that those who are last/least will be at Gods side in our exploration, becoming actually, first. And the first, well, will get to explore on their own b/c they are more...tuned, but, trusted to explore with careful consideration. Just a thought..))
Offline vic108  
#23 Posted : Friday, August 31, 2012 2:38:38 AM(UTC)
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in the past, i've debated this question of who was Melchizedek.

even heard someone say that because "Adam and Eve defaulted on their mission, the truth of ONE GOD had to be kept alive in the minds of people SOMEHOW, so Melchizedek was sent to lay that foundation - that alot of what we read in Scripture is really Melchizedek talking to Abraham and not Abraham talking directly to God".

Interesting statement...
"May your wisdom equal your zeal and your courage atone for your ignorance."
Offline FredSnell  
#24 Posted : Friday, August 31, 2012 4:31:53 AM(UTC)
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I don't think so, Vic. Reason is, b/c the two that went to get Lott, they had the power to blind all who sought to harm them. And YHWH let Abraham have fore knowledge of the two cities doom. So if He was a priest that listened to Yah instead, H ewould have had to pocess a nuclear power in my thinking.
Offline cgb2  
#25 Posted : Saturday, September 1, 2012 6:24:40 AM(UTC)
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G3198
Μελχισεδέκ
Melchisedek
Total KJV Occurrences: 9
melchisedec, 9
Heb_5:6, Heb_5:10, Heb_6:20, Heb_7:1, Heb_7:10-11 (2), Heb_7:15, Heb_7:17, Heb_7:21

Major thesis in the book of Hebrews and also used to dismiss and annul the Torah.
ISR1998
Malkitseḏeq.”
Heb 7:18 For there is indeed a setting aside of the former command because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
Heb 7:19 for the Torah perfected naught, but the bringing in of a better expectation, through which we draw near to Elohim.

KJV
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Psalms/Mizmowr/Song 19:7
7 Yahowah’s (י ה ו ה – Yahowah’s) Towrah (Towrah – Source of Teaching and Instruction and the Place from which Direction and Guidance Flow) is wholly complete and entirely perfect (tamym – without defect, lacking nothing, totally correct, sound, genuine, right, helpful, healing, beneficial, and true), returning, restoring, and transforming (suwb – turning around, bringing back, changing, and renewing) the soul (nepesh – our consciousness). Yahowah’s (י ה ו ה – Yahowah’s) testimony (‘eduwth – witness) is trustworthy and reliable (‘aman – is instructive, informative, verifiable, confirming, supportive, and establishing), making understanding and obtaining wisdom (hakam – making education, learning, and enlightenment to the point of comprehension) simple for the open-minded (pethy – easy for those who are receptive)

During another discussion it was said that the talmud also has a lot melchizadek legends. Whoever the author of Hebrews was, Paul or pauline disciple, makes sense - a Pharasee of Pharisees (den of vipers :^)
Offline vic108  
#26 Posted : Sunday, September 2, 2012 3:42:10 AM(UTC)
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The talmud is bunk.....

The Towrah may be complete as far as teaching the path one takes to approach Yahowah, but it does not contain all the answers to all of the questions one may have about the universe...
"May your wisdom equal your zeal and your courage atone for your ignorance."
Offline FredSnell  
#27 Posted : Sunday, September 2, 2012 3:59:37 AM(UTC)
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Right!...They are stuck in, tal(mud.)..If Yah is on your side He will help you with or answers in your journey. His Word guides even the least of us.
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