It's my understanding that Matthew, Mark, John are fairly reliable using oldest manuscripts. That Mark 16:9-20 was clearly added in the 400's (appalacian pentecostal - poison drinkers and snake handlers anyone :^), and that after Revelation 17 there isn't any pre-constantine manuscript witness, although that doesn't make it wrong - just unverifiable. Not sure I trust Luke because he was Paul's PR man, and Marcion cannon.

I read this target verse and around it in John for first fruits:
Joh 20:17 יהושע said to her, “Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My Elohim and your Elohim.’ ”

Also snippets from Matthew during Passover, UB

OK, forget all of Mark....maybe we should say authors with greek names :^)

Most reliable (and that's a stretch with english translations):
Mitithyahu (Matthew)
Yahowchonnan (John)
Revelation (John)

Some of the early "church fathers" wrote of "heretics who believed in messiah, yet followed the old law, and had copies of Matthew in Hebrew". Later all that could be found by the church like that would be tortured/mudered and their copies destroyed (Rev 6:9-11?)....stacking the deck so to speak with well funded post constantine scribes.

Fron the oldest Greek manuscript
http://www.thewaytoyahuw...ersion1/matthew#chapter6

“Our Father, He Who is within and inside the heavens, Your abode;
Hallowed and sanctified is Your name and title, character and person, reputation and authority;
Your kingdom and royal power, dominion and rule, kingship, reign and
authority come and appear, arise and be established;
Your will and purpose, desire and choice, mind and wish, purposeful intent
and decision, gracious disposition and good pleasure, decree and law,
precept and inclination come to be and exist, arise, appear and originate,
Upon the earth and land, ground and inhabited regions as it is
within and inside the heavens, Your abode;
give and grant, supply and furnish, bestow and deliver, commit and permit,
extend and present to us today our daily, sufficient and sustaining bread;
and forgive and leave off, leave behind and set aside, ignore and disregard,
abandon and leave destitute, give up and dismiss, omit and reject, neglect and
separate us from our debts and obligations, sins and offences, transgressions and guilt,
as, like and similar to the way we have forgiven and let off, left behind and set aside,
ignored and disregarded, abandoned and left destitute, given up and dismissed,
omitted and rejected, neglected and separated those who have debts and
obligations, sins and offences, liabilities and guilt against us from theirs;
and may You not bring or lead, carry or drag us into and towards trials and troubles
that test and objectively examine, scrutinize and enticement us to prove,
determine and ascertain our genuineness, behavioural response and character,
but nevertheless, notwithstanding and on the contrary, save and deliver, rescue,
draw and snatch us away from the evil and troublesome, sorrowful and poor,
pitiable and unfit, unattractive and useless, worthless and morally reprehensible,
morally corrupt and wicked, annoying and unethical, diseased and blind,
perilous and criminal, vicious and malignant, harmful and incompetent,
bad and wretched, pernicious and noxious one.”


Although of questionable origin (and proving it here :^) the Du Tillet Hebrew MatitYahu:
http://www.inspiredreadi...m/MattithYAHu-Hebrew.pdf

6:9 “But you, thus will you pray:
‘Abinu, Who is in haShamayim, Qodesh will be Your Shem.
6:10 ‘Your Malchut will come, Your desire be done, as in haShamayim, also upon the earth.
6:11 ‘Our continuous bread give to us today.
6:12 ‘And forgive to us our debts, as we forgive to our debtors.
6:13 ‘And let us not come into temptation, but rescue us from all evil- for to You is haMeluchah, and haGeburah, and
Kabod, forever, and forever and ever. Amein.’

I'll be honest Walt that I am really, really struggling with the entire life of Yahoshuwa. It's like, okay trust Matthew, but not anything that is says He said and most of what it says He did. Okay, trust John, but not what it says that He said and not what it says He did.

I am just being honest with everyone about my big, big struggle at this point. Is there any witness that Yahoshuwa came as prophesied beyond the Christian NT? I mean, I can't "trust" something that can't be trusted. I could easily throw out Mark and Luke - no problem. Then I could throw out the pieces that were said to be added to Matthew - okay. Now its, well - even the things in Matthew that is says He said aren't true - so throw those out. Or is it some things aren't true and some things are? I I mean really - at least of the OT there is the DSS to do some sort of check and verification.

But for such an important event as Yashoshuwa - is there truly no place to confirm those things prophesied by Daniel or are we back to the Christian concept of "faith"?

Again, I may just be emotional at this point but this is an honest, soul bearing question - if I can't trust any written account about what He said, what He did, and who He even was - what account is there or do I just say "well, I believe He came but it He didn't say or do anything that the bible says He did"? Was it the same guy or is the Christian bible documenting a different guy?

I mean really, is there not one written witness that exist today? Because every time I post any scripture - even from Matthew and John I find out on here that it is a fake, phoney, or fraud. So what witness does everyone else rely upon? I KNOW that we can trust Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah (sorry, I can't spell their true names quite yet) - but aren't we still supposed to verify what the prophets have spoken? Or do we say - well, they were right for everything else so we assume they were right about these events even though every witness account can't be trusted? Again, I am just dealing with where I am emotionally with this right now. Any help would be appreciated.

I mean, now I am wondering - were they right about Him celebrating Pesach, were they right about Seven Seven's or did they make that part up? Were they right about His mother and father or did they just add those. With Paul - he was wrong on so many accounts I just threw him out - even though he was occasionally right. I didn't keep the "right" stuff and throw away the wrong stuff. If I throw away Matthew and John in additional to Mark and Luke and have read in ITG that we can't really trust Josephous - that leaves me in a pretty big bind. Is there not one witness to Yahoshuwa's time on earth?

Yes, that is one of the key points in Matthew 6. Even the tradition of saying grace before meals, opposes what Yahowsha instructed, yet alone national day of prayer, rally around the pole, prayer teams, thanksgiving, etc. Despite so many saying "personal relationship" :)

I have a simple rule that I follow when dealing with the Greek text and the life of Yahowsha presented in them. If it conforms with the Towrah, Prophet and Writings, and can not be shown to be an addition trust it, otherwise don't. In other words don't base anything solely upon the Greek text. When it comes to a relationship with Yah the only real place to turn is the Towrah, Prophet and Writings, the Greek accounts of Yahowsha's life can be helpful, but they are not sufficient to understand Yah.

Something else to keep in mind is that he spoke to a Towrah literate crowd so that is a part of the context of everything he said, without knowing the Towrah you can't know what he said. So focus first on the Towrah.

Flintface - I know Josephus wrote about Him, but then in some parts of ITG Yada mentioned not trusting Josephus because it was highly flawed. I will have to relook through that part again.

Flintface,

I am struggling with this because I was a Christian for a long time. It was all about "faith" and "just believe". When I found Yah and found truth I came into understanding. When I found out so much of what Christians had been relying upon was false and made up - I was happy to throw it out.

It's just that so much of what Yah did, even from creation - can be verified. I think about the start of my journey. I just don't know what decision I would have made if I had been told that everything in the "New Testament" was probably a lie - even the words of Yahowsha'. That the only "proof" that can be trusted that He even walked that earth of Yah promised was an entry by government officials in the Roman Empire - but I have never seen those entries. But, that Yahowsha' probably never said what the NT says he did, he probably didn't do much of what the NT says he did.

I mean really, this was a really really really major event. Our eternity is built upon that. Also, when I am speaking with Christians, those that are seeking, truly seeking, it is really hard for me to imagine that I have to communicate to them that the only thing they can trust is that a government official in the Roman Empire said there was a man named Yahowsha'. Also, I am supposed to tell them to have faith and believe that it happened, but not the kind of faith that Paul talked about because Paul was a liar. But, I have to use the same flawed text to say that Paul was a liar. I am falling into circular reasoning in my mind. I know it is probably me over thinking things, but this is really major for me.

I am not at all saying I don't believe Yahowha' came and did what Yah said He would do. I am just saying it does concern me a great deal that there is absolutely no written record from it in a time of LOTS of written records and letters. I know Yah is faithful, it is just hard for me to grasp that when Yahowsha was here on earth - He did nothing that was accurately recorded? Did He really say what they record that He said on the upright pole or was He just silent or did He say something else? Did He tell His disciples to share the good news or not? Was the entire NT made up? In order to believe Revelation you have to believe He had disciples.

While I totally understand how we should attribute the things that are consistent with Towrah that Yahowsha' said to Him, but what about things that He said that went beyond Towrah - like adultery. He strengthened Towrah beyond what Moseh wrote - do I believe it? Or, do I look only to the Towrah and completely ignore everything the NT, Josephus, and anyone and everyone else said regarding and about Yahowsha'? Is my stance - I believe He came because the prophets said He would and if a Christian says even something that Yahowsha' I reply that it can't be trusted? Honestly, this is the only part I am struggling with. For instance, when we say that the precise day of His death was 33 C.E. - isn't the only confirmation we have of that the NT or is there another source? Are the Roman officials corresponding about putting a man name Yahowsha' to death on 33 C.E.?

I know I am rambling, but I guess my question is do I try to tease out "some" truth from the NT or do I throw the whole thing out? Because there are some things that I believed that are NOT in the Towrah - like spreading the good news. In Towrah - those that joined themselves to Yisra'el were welcome, but there wasn't a commission to actually tell people about it or am I mistaken? Again, sorry for the rambling.

Oh wait, would the "great commission" be in Yirmayahuw 23: 38 - 39?