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Offline lassie1865  
#1 Posted : Monday, April 2, 2012 9:50:53 AM(UTC)
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I've been thinking -- what exactly did we 'inherit' from Adam? Did we really inherit a broken nature/propensity to sin, and/or physical death, or did we just lose the benefit of living in the garden/God's presence? I suppose Adam would have just been 'translated' if he had not sinned, but his physical body probably would not have 'lived forever' anyway. Adam's 'death' was really a death of the soul. We obviously didn't inherit Adam's 'sin', but did we inherit a propensity to sin? Did we 'inherit' physical death? Is each of us just as capable of not sinning as was Adam if one is taught and walks in the Torah? How do we properly define "The Fall of Man"?

I am trying to answer my Christian friends' favorite quotation: "In Adam ALL DIE, and in Christ ALL LIVE."

What are your thoughts?
Offline dajstill  
#2 Posted : Monday, April 2, 2012 2:32:15 PM(UTC)
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I think we inherited quite a bit from Adam

Adam was the start of Yahowah creating a family. Abraham, Moseh - they can all be traced back to Adam

We love to focus on the "sin" of Adam - but Adam did some things right was well. Adam could have been so distraught from being kicked out of the garden he committed suicide, but that didn't happen. Adam could have been so angry he killed Hawwah - but he didn't. He obviously taught his son's something - since they knew to bring an offering before Yahowah (and knew there was a "right" and a "wrong" way). Adam was the father of Seth - and obviously did some things right in raising him as well as Abel.

Through Adam we know the original plan for man. Through Adam and Hawwah we know exactly how satan (and those that work for him) operate. We didn't inherit his sin, but we can absolutely learn from his mistake. Isn't that one of the best things we can do for our children? I haven't been a perfect person or a perfect parent, but I surely hope I can help my children not make the same mistakes I did in life.

We also learn from Adam that Yahowah never expected or wanted perfection, but relationship. YHWH didn't ask Adam to worship Him, bow down to Him, or grovel at His feet. We see YHWH cared about Adam - wanting him to have the best of everything, wanting him to have a great place to dwell - a place they could dwell together. We also learn that YHWH's Towrah is easy, simple, and straight forward. I think if we were still in the garden, that would still be probably the only "big" commandment - don't go over to that "tree", make a choice to get all the knowledge you need by observing YHWH, meeting Him at those special times when He says He will meet you. I don't know if YHWH walked in the "cool of the day" everyday or if it was a Sabbath were He was coming to meet with Adam and Hawwah. The big point is, most of the other pieces of the Towrah that we have are because we are living outside the garden. There is a bunch of crap here that probably didn't exist in the gargen - not a lot of worry about "clean" and "unclean" foods, slavery, divorce, or a million other crazy crap that we deal with in the world we live in today. It's because of the testimony of Adam and Hawwah that we got from Moseh that we know what this whole desire for a life with YHWH is all about. It would definitely be a buzz kill if Eden were like some American ghetto or war torn middle eastern hell hole filled with death and destruction.

Things got so bad, so quickly outside of the garden that just a few generations after Adam YHWH had to destroy the whole crop in that area save Noah and his family. We wouldn't have a clue as to just how perfect YHWH is without the testimony of Adam. We need the lineage to know that this isn't some random plan with a schizophrenic god that randomly chooses things out of the blue. Nope, it is all a part of the plan.

We spend so much time blaming Adam for eating a stupid piece of fruit that we don't learn the lesson. Anything the nehash offers you is a trap, a joke, a fake, a phony, a fraud, and the price of separation from YHWH isn't worth it - not even if he offers you the rule of the whole world. Adam screwed up and instead of learning from his screw up people are blaming their screw ups on Adam - 6,000 years later. Its like people the grow up in a house with an alcoholic or an abusive parent. You would "think" they would realize just how much that kind of life sucks and would choose to be another way. Instead we now say "like father, like son", say it is a "generational curse", or say there is a genetic disposition to some depravity or another.

We "could" have chosen a different route. Man could have chosen to learn from Adam and live in a world as close to Eden as possible - waiting in anticipation for Yahoshua 2,000 years ago and waiting patiently for His return soon. Nope. Man has used free will to say "in Adam's fall we sinned all; we can't help it; we were born into sin". For all the things of man, the biggest thing he "ain't" is smart. That's the funniest thing - they thought they were eating fruit that would make them smart! This is why even in Proverbs it talks extensively of wisdom crying out in the streets! Learn you fools! We we still have to keep doing this? Do we have to do this every stinking generation? Why the hell do you stupid human beings keep eating from that damned stupid tree!

I just paid off my school loans - over $80,000 in stupid school loans. I have vowed that my children won't make such a stupid choice. I would be so absolutely disappointed and mortified if one of my kids said "well, since mommy stupidly got all those school loans I guess I am destined for the same fate - sign me up!" Adam gave us what only Adam could have given us - the ability to learn from someone else's mistake. Instead, wisdom is still crying out in the streets and most of us are still not listening!
Offline cgb2  
#3 Posted : Monday, April 2, 2012 4:13:05 PM(UTC)
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There were 2 trees in the garden, they could eat from the tree of life. Afterwards a guard was placed so they could not eat from the tree of life, lest they live forever.
Offline cgb2  
#4 Posted : Monday, April 2, 2012 4:21:10 PM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
..."In Adam ALL DIE, and in Christ ALL LIVE."...


1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I think I wont't trust anything Paul has to say.
Offline MadDog  
#5 Posted : Monday, April 2, 2012 11:56:23 PM(UTC)
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Tree of Life and Tree of knowledge of good and evil (i.e. wisdom).

Had Adam and Chawwah taken a step back and given more thought to eating from the Tree of good and evil they would have realized that they already knew good from evil. To disobey Yahweh is evil and the penalty would be death spiritually (i.e. separation from Yahweh).

Adam and Chawwah could also have simply waited to ask Yahweh himself next time they saw him, but instead they disobeyed him.

The other aspect is why would Yahweh even put the Tree of good and evil in the garden to begin with if not to "tempt" Adam and Chawwah.

As far as Adam and Chawwah were concerned they were perfect, but they didn't necessarily have free will.

After the fall Yahweh continued to have a relationship with them despite of what they did. A fallen creation freely choosing Yahweh of their own volition is why Yahweh put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden.

This is why I think Yahweh choose to redeem us by sending Yahosuah. His actions led to the downfall and his actions again would restore us. Only he is the one capable of doing this and he is the only who could.

The christian way of thinking is that the christian god is all knowing and all loving incapable of making a mistake or regretting his decisions.

Quote:
Gen.6
[7] And Yahweh said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.


That we are all god's children is just not so. Yes all are invited into his home but not all will accept, some will reject his invitation and others will become hostile and even prevent others from accepting the invitation.

Also let's not forget that there were humans living outside of the garden already. Physical death was already part of the human condition.

I think that Yahweh's plan all along was having "children" but children who had free will. A unique being who didn't live forever like the malachi's. A uniqe being capable of being evil and good at the same time but with a certain life span and with free will.

Yahweh would accept only those who choose him for genuine relationship not because they owed Yahweh anything.

A messy process to be sure but at the end it would produce a new creation like gold tried in the fire.
Offline FredSnell  
#6 Posted : Thursday, May 3, 2012 2:36:54 AM(UTC)
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Some days set themselves apart from others in my mind. Makes me even have to think more on things that I probably wouldn't have considered until I was speaking with a person. Yesterday, and old black man came by to pick up some equipment for a company. Can't say how old, as I have a hard time looking at black ppl and trying to determine their age. Some just don't age in the face! Well he started talking about his preacher at his church being a Houston policeman. Why he did, I still don't know? I think he may have seen my pistol I carry in the small of my back and wanted to remark on it, but I cut him off before he could go any farther with his story with a, "you as old as Moses and still getting it." After his laugh I asked him if his preacher has ever mentioned that the god he believes he is following, has a name? After signing off he looked up and just shook his head, no. Well of course I went into the Yah Name in words he has grown up using and even the names of prophets, that to me can't even hide the name no longer, even in modern english. By the time I had walked him out to his truck and explaining that God does indeed grow, and is more now than when we started speaking this morning, the old man himself was beging to slump over. So I bent over to see under his hat and look into his eyes and reminded him that Adam, as close as I'm looking at you this moment, had this close a relationship with Yah. It was this close, and yet he became beguiled by the adversary. Here, a man knowing and walking with God, was lead astray. And here are you and I, never once seeing Yah, feel like we have a relationship with Him. Well I didn't keep going b/c I felt the old timer might begin to cry, so I stopped and put my hand on his shoulder and sort of pushed him to his truck door. I said listen, all I have mentioned is easily verifiable by doing some due dilligence on your part, but if you don't think that preacher isn't leading you and that baptist church away from Him/Yah, well you know where I am, and pls let that preacher come and question even me, b/c I will tell him where even he if his eyes will open, and he has ears that can really hear what God is saying, let him call me and I will help even him, and I'm nobody, just a man. Well after walking back to the shop I was thinking about Moshe and how he lived 3 sets of 40yrs. And how man is living also 3 sets of 40 yowbels...and I thanked Him for giving me something to chew on the rest of my day, even though one of my sons riled me to no end b/c of his on misunderstanding/atheism. But then my wife calms me and reminds me, "keep walking in the path He showed and Josh will either awaken, or he won't, it's not my problem, it's his." And I have to be reminded from time to time to just stop and think. It's none of our jobs to try and save one, we can't. All we can do is help others awaken. Don't take His Name and keep it to ourselves. Let others know what you have found and just ask them to start reading up on why and what happened that caused all this confusion in the world. One thing in my mind caused it all, and I believe we know what was hidden. Well I never got around the the guy that quoted, Paul, and almost got phsically removed from my presence. Standing at my door and quotes Paul. Boy don't do that unless you are ready for what comes next.
Offline Richard  
#7 Posted : Thursday, May 3, 2012 6:17:18 AM(UTC)
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Fred, you are ever an inspiration to me (even if you are a pistol-packin' redneck). Thank you for sharing that, bro.
Offline FredSnell  
#8 Posted : Thursday, May 3, 2012 7:20:39 AM(UTC)
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flintface wrote:
Fred, you are ever an inspiration to me (even if you are a pistol-packin' redneck). Thank you for sharing that, bro.


Okay brother, now you are sounding like Mary, my wife. She gets a kick out of me b/c sometimes even she has to stand at the back window and do a hush finger to her mouth to tell me not to get angry at some ppl, but that's only b/c they will not listen to truth that Yah spoke and instead rehash that wolfs bark and howl...awww christians, I grew up with you guys, even called myself one, but those days are buried and gone....lol..she just hollered, "tell Richard hi for me."
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