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Offline Chrestucian  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, August 31, 2011 1:45:37 PM(UTC)
Chrestucian
Joined: 8/29/2011(UTC)
Posts: 14

Since the forum doesn't include an Introductions section (Maybe it's there and I simply missed it. (Happens all the time)), I'm going to introduce myself here as I try to better understand the name of my God.

Within this thread I'm going to use YHWH. I imagine there are some who will immediately bristle because that's not Ha Shem. Yet YHWH is well established in print, in the most ancient, best preserved texts.

I heard a story some time ago that has stuck with me. Many have probably heard it. It may even be exposed as a hoax on Snopes, but I'm going to repeat it again, as best I can remember it anyway...

Quote:
Seems there was a young man who was new in Israel. He was very early in his learning of Hebrew, and he had a job in a little shop. Life was good until one afternoon a bomb was exploded in a nearby shop. In an instant the scene was one of death and destruction. Very quickly he realized there was nothing material he could do to help the situation, so he prayed. He felt it was the most important prayer of his life. He set his heart on YHWH, he set his thoughts on the people in the street, and all his tongue could come up with was to repeat his Hebrew alphabet over and over. He knew all the right words were in there, they just weren't in order.

Some days later a man entered the shop looking rather uncomfortable, and tentatively asked is your name <insert name>. When the young man nodded, the other man looked even more confused and went on "I don't really understand this, but I think I'm supposed to tell you, your prayer was heard."


It's an old story, and I don't know if it's true, but I like to think there is a lot of truth in it.

While the God of Israel certainly has a name, and he wants us to know it, I like to think he has mercy for those who are still seeking him out, but don't yet have the proper words. Yehushua said the way is narrow, and by what appear to me to be the most coherent interpretation, the narrow way is that which is documented in the Tanakh. He said that he had revealed the name of the Father to the Apostles. They were obviously worthy of being selected before they knew the name, and he didn't tell them "go find the name, then come back and talk to me."

I'm a firm believer that when all things are brought into remembrance (we know and understand all that has taken place) there will not be one among us who isn't rocked to his foundation at the length of patience and mercy that has been given to man. I see great danger in pronouncing you don't do this, or you don't know that, and you're going to hell. If YHWH was as short as many here we'd have all cooked a long time ago.

Yes point up the issues. Speak the truth as you know it. But don't start the conversation with "Christianity is the work of the devil" because the only people who will stop to listen are atheists, anti-theists, and Muslims. It's a difficult situation because many you speak with are in love with Yehushua as they understand him. Those who are ripe for discussion only have to understand two simple changes, works aren't a bad thing, and don't have faith have trust. In the non-pauline writings of the New Testament the authors do a foundational job of linking works to faith. The message has to be, "Those who love Yahuweh do what makes Yahuweh happy. The two main groups that won't be open to listening if approached properly are the "Oh, shoot, what was it? I said that thing, that thing with Jesus in it, and now I'm saved", yeah, those people, and the ones who are defensive, angry and arrogant. It's two fairly large groups really.

Over the years I've been involved with many denominations, and several of them weren't even recognized as denominations by the other denominations. The closest I found to what I saw as truth was a Messianic Jewish group, but they were steeped in traditions that I simply didn't understand. I would probably still be there had I fit in better. I've always had difficulty in my spiritual growth because I tend to be shackled to my own understanding. I know it's cliche, but I've been diagnosed ADD. I know it isn't really a claim to fame, but they were feeding me Ritalin years before most people knew what Ritalin was. I have great difficulty remembering things that don't have a prepared spot in my mind. I do real well with books that say "As we begin chapter three keep these questions in mind." Immediately after reading the questions I couldn't repeat the questions back to you. But still, when one by one, the answers are found in the text, the light bulb goes off and they stick. Since finding YY everything seems so much more understandable. I'd always looked at the word YHWH and known it carried more weight than a bumper fish, but was completely at a loss as to why it seemed to be ignored. The messianic group I was with seemed very Talmudic in there ritual and if we ever did discuss the name, the answer wasn't recognizable enough to make the light bulb go off.

To tell the truth I felt ashamed after reading "Questioning Paul." I had never been able to reconcile his words with those of Yehushua. As I read and understood, it all became so clear. I read on, page after page, and continually in my heart said "Yes! Yes I knew it. It couldn't have been right. I knew it all along." I got a sense of pleasure out of seeing it exposed so plainly. It wasn't until hours later that it sunk in just what it meant. I didn't cry, but I certainly was pained by my slow uptake on the depth and gravity of the deception, and my sense of personal pride at believing I was somehow more fit because it hadn't trapped me.

I'm just rambling! It's one of my few talents. anyhow... Hi! that's kinda who I am and how I think, and I've got questions on the topic of "In his Name".



First, why not YHWH in print? As I've said before, it is well established in accepted scripture and all know who it refers to. When I see apologies on web pages that used to use Yahweh, but have more recently discovered it is Yahuweh, I get curious about the next translated transliteration to come down the line. It is difficult when "discoveries" aren't time stamped. As I've said the teachings of YY and its brethren are new to me, so it is difficult to not see these "understandings" as being relatively new. While I'm sure that there has always been a "remnant" that understood the issue, when did it begin to spread on the net? And when was Yahweh given over Yahuweh?

I've also got some issue with the explanation at The Way To Yahuweh

Firstly, isn't transliteration about sounds, not letters? While the Hebrew alphabet has no J, are we to believe that they don't use that sound? English has both G and J and in a few instances they could be swapped with no lingual impact. Should the English word rigid be transliterated to english, it could easily be recognized as rijid. When speaking of transliteration it is meaningless to say they don't have that letter. Instead it should be said they don't use that sound. On an adjoining page it says "The Greeks lacked a Y, a H, and a W, making Yahuweh and Yahushua’s names completely impossible to transliterate into the Greek language..." Again, shouldn't we be talking about sounds rather than letters? To think that Greek's never made a yu, ha or wu sound is even more unbelievable than the Hebrew being unable to say jump.

Secondly, the TWTY page I linked claims Yahweh and Yahuweh are pronounced the same. "From now on I will spell God’s name as either Yahuweh or Yahweh so that everyone can see that they might be transliterated from Hebrew slightly differently, yet they are both said exactly the same way." WHAT??? So is the added 'oo' sound silent? Transliteration is about recreating the vocalization of a name in a different language, correct? How can you put a 'u' in the middle of that 'English' word and not have it change the vocalization?

The page goes on to say, "It’s pretty much the same thing as my name – Stephen – which can also be spelt as Steven, yet both Stephen and Steven are said the exact same way – just like Yahweh and Yahuweh are also said the exact same way." Then your name would have to be transliterated as Steven because the ph in Stephen normally make an f sound and could be confusing. The key is to write the sounds.

It is said Yahuweh and Yahweh are transliterated slightly differently but are said exactly the same way. Well if that's the case, one of them is transliterated wrong! Which is it? Or do we know?

Please understand I intend no blasphemy or disrespect. But if I stood on a mountain and simply screamed YAH!!! would he know I was talking to him?

I understand the importance of the name. And I'm sure on this earth I'll never understand the power of the name. But I'm curious about how intensively we need to struggle for the nuance of a name we'll probably never get right anyway.

I have a son with cerebral palsy. He's got a manageable learning delay, and went through years of physical and speech therapy. He's actually in pretty good shape. We spent a lot of time around a lot of kids who were stricken a whole lot worse. As a parent I can tell you, I love him for who he is, and years later, listening to video tapes, his old speech impediments almost sound like home.



I'm rambling again. Watch a pro at work...

You want to hear a story? From a very early age he wore Velcro shoes because he simply couldn't deal with the laces. When he was in sixth grade the teachers asked that we get him a pair of lace up shoes, because "come hell or high water" they were going to teach him to tie a bow... didn't work. Then one day I saw a commercial. I can't remember what it was for, but it was a montage of quick little bits and one of them was a fella who just seemed to twist his wrists and his shoe was tied. I watched for it but couldn't see what the guy was doing. Finally I got it on video tape and dissected it frame by frame.

This isn't the same video clip, but it shows the magical twist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yuP-pWOmRE

Joseph picked it up immediately, and the next day went to school with his shoes tied. And HE taught two other kids and his teachers how to tie their shoes.

Wow! Is that some rambling or what? Told you I was good. :D

EDIT: Fixed some grammar and missing words. Also if you look at the shoe tying video, some of the other Sprintcut videos are good too. This one is already a new part of my routine... http://www.youtube.com/w...qEVjE&feature=relmfu
Offline In His Name  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:56:58 PM(UTC)
In His Name
Joined: 9/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 550

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Welcome C. I have enjoyed your voice over the last few days. Concerning the tenor taken towards some, you may be right. Your insight and successes in this regard would be read with delight by many as this is a common topic at times. Please find an existing thread on which to share with us.

Regarding transliteration... While I am no expert, I am fully capable of regurgitating what i have learned.

Not only was there no J, there was no J sound until the 16th century.

In the original YY writings it was explained that the w should be read as oo, so the proper pronunciation of Yahweh was Yah oo ay, identical to Yahuweh.

A few years later, many began seeing that this pronunciation didn't seem to follow the grammatical patterns of the rest of the language, so now the pronunciation has been changed to Yahowah or Yahuwah. (quite similar to the older jehovah with the je and v corrected)

I tend to favor Yahuwah, primarily because it matches Yahudah, which no one seems to challenge.

I write YHWH so every one can choose their own pronunciation. I still catch myself pronouncing Yahweh in my head.

If you shout Yah I think you are safe. ;)

I do have trouble with Yeshua. I assume this comes from your messianic background. And this is some of the rabbinical baggage they carry. Depending on what story you listen to Yeshua is either the Rabbi's covering up the relationship of Yahushua to YHWH by removing Yah's name from Yahushua or it is a Rabbinical epithet. Either way Yeshua is going to raise some hackles on this forum.

There are also Yahushua and Yahowsha, Perhaps someone could enlighten us both on these, as I still haven't gotten it.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline Matthew  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, August 31, 2011 4:24:21 PM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
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In His Name wrote:
There are also Yahushua and Yahowsha, Perhaps someone could enlighten us both on these, as I still haven't gotten it.


Swalchy's actually done a compelling study on the subject. The full version of יהושוע (Yahuwshuwa - Yahushua) for example is the most prevalent form in the DSS, though in other places יהשוּע (Yahshua - first vav dropped and but the second not) is also found. Swalchy pretty much dismisses the Yahowsha spelling, not surprisingly, saying what people haven't realised is that the vav is often dropped in later versions when the vav and ayin are found together (for example pronounced shuwa - shin, vav and ayin - in Yahshua's name). He found that it was common practice to drop the vav, which would give the "sha" sound even though "shuwa" was actually implied through the vowel pointing system. In the end there's no more correct one since there are a number of versions of the name.
Offline Matthew  
#4 Posted : Friday, September 2, 2011 1:16:45 PM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
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Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Have you guys seen the eliyah.com/yahushua link. Here's some interesting stuff:

Quote:
יהושע - Yahushua

י Yod - Produces a "Y" or "I" sound.

ה Heh - As a Hebrew vowel letter it produces the "Ah" or "Oh" sound (like in #8283 "Sarah" and #8010 Sh'lomoh). Otherwise produces the "H" sound and the "ah" sound would have to be supplied by the reader.

ו Waw - Also called "Vav". As a Hebrew vowel letter it produces an "oo" (u) or "oh" sound (like in #7307 Ruach). Otherwise produces a "W" sound. This is the ignored letter in the pronunciation "Yahshua". This letter is nowhere represented. Where is the W or initial U??

ש Shin - Produces the "sh" sound. The following "oo" sound is indicated by a vowel pointing but Deut. 3:21 and Judges 2:7 actually gives us another "waw" after this letter, proving the "shu" pronunciation as valid. This is why Strong's 3091 gives 2 possible spellings (see above lexicon graphic). This also eliminates "Yasha/Yahusha" and "Yahoshea/Yahushea" as being possibilities.

ע Ayin - Silent without a vowel point but indicates an "ah" sound at the end of "Yahushua".
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