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Offline Walt  
#1 Posted : Saturday, August 6, 2011 8:02:45 AM(UTC)
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What are peoples thoughts on people who are in pain & suffering choosing to end it?
The rcc has made suicide out to be the "unforgivable sin"
Is a life that is of constant pain a life to be lived?
To keep one drugged up so they are unable to function better than death?

When an animal is suffering we will "put it out of it's misery" but for a human we use every means to keep them alive.

How about having a "Do not resuscitate" order or refusing life support as part of a living will?


Offline cgb2  
#2 Posted : Saturday, August 6, 2011 5:10:35 PM(UTC)
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I would think that suicide (assisted or not), is far different than twarting death via the use of machines and perhaps YHWHs will...er, for extended duration anyway.
Offline cgb2  
#3 Posted : Saturday, August 6, 2011 6:45:20 PM(UTC)
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Thinking more on this..."you shall not murder" pretty much sums up the topic of suicide
Offline Richard  
#4 Posted : Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:19:18 PM(UTC)
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Walt, as one who in the past slept for years with severe chronic depression and who frequently engaged in heavy petting with suicide almost to the point of going all the way numerous times, I can tell you this: the only thing that stayed my hand from self-murder was the absolute certainty that killing myself would be spiritual suicide as well. Self-extermination is the ultimate act of proof that the actor does not trust Yahowah. It is a spiteful spitting into Yahowah's face while screaming, "You're a LIAR!" The terror invoked by considering facing Him after such an act kept me alive until He was finally able to open my eyes and mind to His truths, which led me out of Christianity and its impotent teachings.

The bottom line is, "Don't do it." I mean that, brother. Just don't.

Richard

Edited by user Monday, August 8, 2011 1:47:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Clarify wording

Offline Walt  
#5 Posted : Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:58:33 PM(UTC)
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Oh, I'm not in chronic pain.

But there are people in hospitals and nursing homes that are, and they are kept drugged up, and in many cases it doesn't ease the pain. Is that any kind of existence? The medical community puts sooo much guilt & pressure on extending life, but what about quality of life??? Is spending life as a pained zombie life???
My dad use to be nurse working in nursing homes, and during the summer I would go to work with him sometimes. The way the elderly are treated is inhumane. I decided way back then that I'm not going out that way. It's a miserable excuse of life.

Does Yah prefer someone to suffer in pain for months or years over ending it all?

Is it anymore "sinful" then a chain smoker who is slowly killing themselves?
Offline Richard  
#6 Posted : Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:24:32 PM(UTC)
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My wife worked for 18 months at a Jewish geriatric home in SW Houston years ago, and I know exactly what you're talking about. We had no car, so I would walk her to and from work, which was about a mile and a half. I would frequently get there early, and as I waited for her, I would pay attention to what I was seeing. Plus, she would share with me what she saw and experienced throughout her own day of work there. And you're right. That is no way to spend the last days/weeks/months/years of one's life.

But what are we to do, brother? CGB2 nailed it. "Do not kill" contains no exception clauses that I can find. So does that make Father cruel? I do not think He is cruel. You see, Walt, I have never knowingly met any of His children before, so I have never known one to be in the situations we are discussing. For all I know, then, He won't allow one of His own to get into such a situation. If He does, all you and I can do is trust Him to do what is right.

Peace, my friend.
Offline Walt  
#7 Posted : Sunday, August 7, 2011 3:16:44 PM(UTC)
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Is it murder if one takes their own life?
Is it murder if one is begged to help one end their suffering?

Many that are suffering & in chronic pain wouldn't have lived to the point they are in now a few decades ago. Modern medicine "saved" them for a life of suffering.
A few days after my surgery, in talking with a nurse, she told me that 10 years ago I would have probably died from my accident (bled out internally) or been left an invalid. When I had my 2nd trip back to the emergency room, the same people were on staff. They were glad to see me because they didn't know what happened to me after I was life-flighted to Denver. One of the nurses said they researched my injury afterwards and found it had a high mortality rate.

Is refusing modern medical care & drugs suicide? How about a "do not resuscitate" order?

If one does not have a relationship with the true Creator, does suicide make any difference?

Is someone like Dr Kevorkian evil?
Offline James  
#8 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2011 2:41:18 AM(UTC)
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I don't want to way in on the morality of suicide or assisted suicide. I will say that I'm with Walt to a degree, I really can't blame someone who is in that position for wanting to end it. I've seen people spend years in bed and pain, what kind of life is that. So I can understand why someone would contemplate it at that point, I like to think that I wouldn't.

But you know what they say about opinions, so that is where I will stop with mine.

As to Yah's instruction he stated lo’ rasah, and rasah covers the full range of "killing others with premeditation, by accident, by way of government sanctioned execution, political assassination, religious persecution, or military engagement."

Now that said, the one instruction repeated in all five books of the Torah is that murders are to be put to death. So I think the deeper meaning of this instruction is what should be considered, spiritually killing souls by leading them away from Yah, knowingly or unknowingly.

So in conclusion, I have no idea.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline FredSnell  
#9 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2011 2:53:48 AM(UTC)
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Walt, above sounds just like a conversation I had with a ex-JW while standing at my gate. His own mom was in bad shape from cancer and was being kept alive through a variety of drugs, but the pain I remember him describing. Without morphine and delottas(sp) she would have already ended her suffering just bc the pain was unbarable. I watched my wifes brother suffer from colon cancer and then its spread. He was always talking of flying his plane into the ground before he finally subcumed to the disease at MD Anderson Hospital at the age of 39.
I know we all recognize the gift of life. By one ending his life due to the pain he in enduring, is he accountable for the suicide as long as he wasn't doing it to remove himself from God, but from the pain he could no longer endure.

It deffinately is a question to submit to the show, if YY show decides to open up a day to questions.
Offline VinceB.  
#10 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2011 7:02:07 AM(UTC)
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flintface wrote:
Walt, as one who in the past slept for years with severe chronic depression and who frequently engaged in heavy petting with suicide almost to the point of going all the way numerous times, I can tell you this: the only thing that stayed my hand from self-murder was the absolute certainty that killing myself would be spiritual suicide as well. Self-extermination is the ultimate act of unbelief, a spiteful spitting into Yahowah's face while screaming, "You're a LIAR!" The terror invoked by considering facing Him after such an act kept me alive until He was finally able to open my eyes and mind to His truths, which led me out of Christianity and its impotent teachings.

The bottom line is, "Don't do it." I mean that, brother. Just don't.

Richard



Having followed this thread along from a distance - seeing it targets more at our human emotion - our 'feelings' as the intended bullseye, and in a sense does seem to bypassing and circumvent the whole trust and reliance aspect of what Yah in Towrah would have us acting upon and engaging with Him in; would any loving father want their child to commit suicide? And if we would be traumatized for life if one of our mortal children performed such an act, how much more our loving Father in heaven; that we did not seem it necessary to trust Him enough to hang-on and know Him more perfectly in what He's obviously allowed?...to commit suicide may facilitate a peace (albeit a false peace in that, when we're dead we're no longer compelled to think about it anymore) will nonetheless have residual effects when standing with Yah clothed in Mom's, Ruwach Qodesh, Garment of Light.

Why didn't Saul, king Saul, just submit to Yahowah's authority to replace him with Dowd? After all, Yah gave king Saul the reasons for why it was decided he must be replaced; which obviously Saul proved he could careless about by virtue of the fact he ended up committing suicide as well?

Finally, it could be said that it is easy for me to say since I'm not lying in a hospital bed with tubes hanging out of every orfice...which is true; and yet I've seen many in that condition whom often times, just 9 months prior, with many years previously to that, living it up, having a good o'l time living as if God never existed in the first place, are now listening to christian music, listening to bible on cd, surrounded by christian bibles and book-markers getting all spiritual (not much different from a catholic who'll go to church and confessional on saturday afternoon so they can meet church standards prior to heading out to the bars and living like the devil and get to eat their cake too in sleeping in sunday morning after partying all night - suddenly getting all serious with their religion when they're lying on their back counting ceiling tiles asking: "Why me lord..." and asking everyone that passes by, "To please pray for me; and if RCC, "would you say a few hail Mary's and Our Fathers for me?")

So I'd tend to lean in the direction of Richard here - for a person to reach a point that they actually believe (belief being the exact opposite of trust and rely) they know more than Yahowah regarding their condition/disposition so as to end their life requires one to first turn one's back on our "shamaring" (observing/keeping it always before our eyes - foremost in our thoughts and mind) Yah's Towrah, but just long enough to chamber the bullet, or fill up the glass of water before popping the pill, or loading the syringe...etc really does make a mockery of what Yah was serious about telling us to do: Shamar His Towrah leaving no time to load the chamber or fill the syringe if you're celebrating being Towrah observant.

But I could be wrong; but only wrong if Yah didn't just spend the past 15 billion years preparing everything perfectly for these 6000 years of human history just so as to facilitate the cutting out for Himself a family to share eternity with...15 billion years leaves a heck of a lot of information and evidence to prove I'm probably more right than I am wrong when I suspect suicide probably has more to do with pride than it has to do with Yahowah - and we all know how much He hates pride; the sense that despite His greatness, we somehow know best, would, imho, tend to tick/hurt Yah off more than it would invoke a hug out of Him the next time you and Him crossed each others' path?
HWHY
Offline Richard  
#11 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2011 1:55:43 PM(UTC)
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Let me repeat what I said in my second post to this thread. I have to date never known one of Yahowah's children who was in such a dire situation. Therefore, I cannot declare with any certainty whatsoever that He would ever allow one of His to enter into such a condition as might compel thoughts of suicide as a viable option to be considered. Have any of you? We might have known family members, friends, coworkers, and others who have been in such condition, but not one of them that I have known was one of us. So we might all just be debating for the sake of discussion here. Like James said, I have no idea, really. It's all just conjecture.

Scripture seems to forbid it altogether, if I am understanding it correctly.
Offline FredSnell  
#12 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2011 3:58:53 PM(UTC)
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Well I was there the day my wifes brother (one of my best friends) passed away quietly after the ppl in charge overdosed him permantly this time. I felt they had watched him along with us suffer long enough and did what they thought was the right thing by administaring too much pain killer after months of no relief. Often I sat there looking at him and wanted to do it for him just so he wouldn't be screaming in pain any longer. He was eat up with cancer and could not focus on anything anylonger except what was consuming him
Afterwords I often thought about his suffering as being in the ocean alone with nothing but sharks and one bullet. Once it took a bite, you knew the rest was either going to be hell, or you could hasten it. That was then though and I often thougth there was hope up to last second. I still don't know the answer and it's why I seek Him and His wisdom.
Offline VinceB.  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:48:58 AM(UTC)
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Insofar as I am concerned, if I were put into a situation in which I was in such extreme pain I couldn't eat nor function with no quality of life - none whatsoever, I'd pop the pain meds as many as it takes to remove the pain and if it just so happens to diminish my means of respiration, I trust Yah's going to carry me safely home to live and share eternity with Him as He promised in His Towrah He'll do on my behalf. My goal being the removal of pain so I can life, and not to commit suicide.
HWHY
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