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Offline Noach  
#1 Posted : Saturday, September 1, 2007 2:55:08 PM(UTC)
Noach
Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127

Something that struck me while reading the Neshamah chapter:

Why didn't Adam and Chawwah "know each other" during their stay in Eden. I am of course assuming this, but it stands to reason that if they did, their family would have started during their stay. If they were there for quite a while before being banished it stands to reason that their family would have been fairly large if they had "known each other". The first instance we have of them "knowing each other" isn't until after their banishment when they brought forth Qayin.

Were they not permitted? Did they not have a need to? Was neshamah man and woman designed not to have relations before their fall? Did Yahuwah only want them and not their family in Eden? Was Eden only designed for them and not their family? Did they have children who are still in the garden today? Is that why it was left and protected?

Any thoughts?

Noach
Offline Koos  
#2 Posted : Sunday, September 9, 2007 8:30:40 AM(UTC)
Koos
Joined: 6/30/2007(UTC)
Posts: 22
Man
Location: Vaal Triangle South Africa

Noach, trust you enjoyed your Sabbath. This is actually a very relevant question. I posted something on another "site" which I believe should rather have been shifted here. It covers the oldest civilizations and it is under the topic of the latest chapter which is finalized by Yada. I wonder whether the moderator would be so kind as to rather shift it here as it is more fitting, I believe, to this particular "site".
I would love to hear a response to Noach's question.
Blessings
Koos
Offline J&M  
#3 Posted : Monday, September 10, 2007 7:52:53 AM(UTC)
J&M
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

A&C, before the fall, were probably clothed only in light - they were naked and did not know it. They had eternal life and thus there was no imperative to reproduce quickly.

After the fall, whilst Chawwah confessed (I was beguiled/deceived), Adam blamed Chawwah and then YHWH. This is importan because whilst the Serpent and Adam were 'punished' (cursed) Eve had a provision made - greatly increased (frequency?) in childbirth. Her desire was then for her husband.....

No sin is passed through the female as it is through the male, probably as a result of this
confession. This was ultra-important in the case of Mary.

YHWH knew he had to equip mankind for life outside Eden, and for survival, mankind had to reproduce relatively quickly like the other animals. The Male would have to defend the now vulnerable pregnant mother - she would have to be subject to his protection - he would rule over her!



Offline Theophilus  
#4 Posted : Monday, September 10, 2007 8:33:53 AM(UTC)
Theophilus
Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 527
Man

Thanks: 3 times
Noach, I 've given some thought about your question. I don't recall YY or FH specifically addressing it, however I have my own speculations.

If Adam and Chawah existed in a sinless, immortal condition in close relationship with Yahweh is it reasonable to conclude that their state was close to that Yahushua described of the Yahudym/Ekklesia after the resurrection. That is neither marrying nor being given in marriage, rather existing like the angels.

I suspect that biological procreation is essential for the continued existence of mortal beings, not immortal ones. If this is so, than that would explain why no children are described in Eden.

I further suspect that Yahweh well knew when tested Adam would choose to disbey but would learn the value of their relationship once he experienced seperation and would seek restoration. In the process, Adam would no longer be immortal and would be able to have children. If Adam's kids did exist in Eden, would they too have had to make an informed choice to disobey Yah's instructions being aware of the consequences? The alternative would be leaving kids to be tempted in Eden, or in a state unable to make an informed decision other than to obey their parents or not.

I hope my thoughts made sense to you and helped to address your question.
Offline Yada  
#5 Posted : Friday, September 21, 2007 4:33:49 PM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

Below is an exchange between Yada and "BT." Yada's comments are in red.


Quote:
From: "BT"
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 6:40 PM
To: Yada
Subject: Chawah

Yada,

More questions:

Also since hamad means lust and desire, why would YHWH have used teshuqa to say that Qayin was lusting and desriing power,and sex? Was it YHWH madateing a punishment for Chawah or was he giving an admontion regarding her husbands rule?


Here is Yah’s statement regarding hamad in G3:6 and my commentary on the verse:

As a result of the misleading statements and half truths, Chawah began to see things from a different perspective. “The woman and wife (‘issah) looked and saw (ra’ah – viewed and perceived) that indeed (kiy – surely and truly) the tree’s (‘es) food (ma’akal) was good (towb), and that indeed (kiy) it was desirable (ta’awah – satisfying a longing and craving) visually (‘ayin – to the eye), and coveted (hamad – lusted for and desired) the tree’s (‘es) insights (sakal – wisdom and understanding, teaching and ability to be circumspect and prudent), she grasped hold of (laqah – accepted, received, and took) part of (min – some of) the fruit (pari) and ate (‘akal – consumed) it. Moreover, she immediately (gama’ – in addition she quickly) gave (natan) it to (la) her husband and man (‘ish) who was with (i’m – near) her and he ate.” (Genesis 3:6) In addition to “swiftly and additionally” gama’ means “to swallow” and thus could imply that Chawah “quickly swallowed the fruit,” and “also that she immediately swallowed up the distance” separating her from Adam—and at this point, that was considerable.

It is interesting to note, that Chawah made a conscious choice. She considered the evidence, and then she rendered the decision to rebel. Adam simply went along with the flow. He represents most people today. These are the souls who will simply die rather than experience eternal anguish.

Covetousness is what caused Satan to rebel against God—something made clear in Isaiah. Giving us a preview of this, God confirmed that Satan beguiled Chawah into coveting what God had forbidden. The result was the same: separation.

As you read the consequence of this choice, be aware that the protective covering of the garden is symbolic of the Spirit and Her Garment of Light. The moment Adam and Chawah chose poorly, they lost this protection and thus appeared naked in God’s eyes as well as their own. The Garment of Light precludes Yahweh from seeing our faults, making us appear good and not bad.

In this context, hamad, meaning covet and desire, is appropriate. I don’t see any “admonition regarding her husband’s rule” in this passage, and I don’t think any was intended.

Yah’s use of tasuqah is appropriate in G4:6-7. Here, there is more than just coveting and desire at stake, making tasuqah a much better choice.


So God said, “If (‘im – whenever) you are good and do good (yatab – are pleasant, pleasing, and joyful) you’ll find forgiveness and a high status (sa’et – the removal of guilt, raising up, standing up, dignity, splendor, honor, and majesty). And if (‘im) you aren’t (lo’) good and don’t do good (yatab – aren’t pleasant, pleasing, and joyful) sin (hatta’ – guilt upon missing the way) is crouching down (rabas) in the opening (petah – doorway). You are into (‘atah ‘el) yourself and your intense desires and impulses (tasuqah – uncontrollable emotions and feelings, strong cravings, the overwhelming urge for sex and dominance) are things you must learn to govern (masal – understand how to control).” (Genesis 4:6-7)

Yahweh’s advice to Cain was attitudinal and relational. This was a learning experience and thus it wasn’t appropriate for Cain to be depressed physically or emotionally. God doesn’t want us bowing down before Him. He wants us to raise up, stand up, and become ever more like Him—elevated in status, dignified, honored, splendorous and majestic. And relationally, no one wants to be around a grump. Yatab doesn’t just mean “be good and do good,” it is about “being pleasant, pleasing, and happy.” And since Yah has used towb time and again in this account to covey “good,” it must be the attitudinal aspects of yatab that are important. God wants us happy, and the best way to be that way is to heed His advice.

And therein lies the entire purpose of this discussion. Abel followed Yah’s lead and Cain did not. One found himself accepted and favorably regarded and the other was ignored and rejected. Heaven is for those whom God values. He values those who value Him.

Cain’s issues are central to mankind’s problems. We are all too often led by our emotions rather than by our minds. That is to say, we rely more on our nepesh/soul our consciousness and animal nature, than our nesamah/conscience—the ability to be discerning, discriminating, judgmental, and rational. As such, political and religious men coveting sex, power, and money have mercilessly and without constraint robbed and raped the masses without interruption for six thousand years. Cain’s problem is mankind’s problem. Unwilling to listen to God, man’s animal nature roars to the forefront, killing all that is good.

Quote:
I do not understand why Adam named his wife Chawah after she made a considered the evidence, made a conscious choice, and rendered a decision to rebel ?(according to paragrah 2 page 6 of Nesamah)


I’m uncomfortable crediting Adam with the name. Just because he called her Chawah, doesn’t mean that it was his idea. Yah even explains the reasons for Chawah. And as I see it, I think Yah was making a point, setting up woman/wife/mother as the source of life. Sure, Chawah made a choice which cost her her life, but she became the source of life for Abel and Seth, and through Seth, Abraham, Moses, and the Messiyah.

God said: “The man (‘Adam) called (qara’ – summoned, proclaimed, and announced that) his wife’s (‘issah – woman’s) name (shem – proper designation) was Chawah (chawah – one who gives and renews life, a tent shelter and tabernacle, and one who declares, interprets, and informs), because (kiy) she exists as (hayah) the mother (‘em – adoptive or biological source of life, caregiver, and provider, one who helps, nurtures, and protects) of all (kol) life (chay – familial existence).” (Genesis 3:20)

Quote:
It would seem to me that Nasa would be a better name.


Nasa has two meanings, “to lift up and carry,” and “to deceive.” She didn’t do any of these things. She was diminished because she was deceived

Quote:
As you have made very clear, YHWH communicates many things in a sungle passage, or a single name.That is why Halal ben shacar is an appropriate name for the adversary.

But Chawah's name seems to suggest something other than "Chawah's punishment was quid pro quo - women influenced men so now men would influence women."


My sense is that you are too focused on the penalty and not focused sufficiently on the overall metaphor of family, of husband and wife, of marriage, of mother and father, of home, of renewed life, of relationship, love and children, of protection and of nurturing—especially as these relate to the Covenant and to God. Both messages are there, but I think the positive overwhelms the negative.

Quote:
If fact, you did a beautiful job desribing the root of her name which means "to provide life, to renew and restore life, to sustain and preserve life, tent shelter, tabernacel, one who declares, interprets, and informs." I understand that she serves as a model of the Set apart spiirt but she was also Adams wife and he chose that name for her. How would that apply to them? Qayin and Hebel had fitting names, why not Chawah. She seems to represent the called out (from the side of Adam) as well as the Set Apart Spirit. I wish you would elaborate on that more for me.

For all you do,

This "thanks" for you,

"B"


Even God cannot make a metaphor perfect. While Chawah is a perfect name for mother/woman serving as a symbol of the Set Apart Spirit, it is not a perfect picture of the SAS because the actual, tangible example of perfection was flawed. But within this dichotomy, we see renewal and restoration of life, and that is meritorious because that is the Spirit’s function.

Yada

PS: Unless I hear from you otherwise, I’d like to have this exchange posted anonymously in the YY Forum in the hope that it will spawn additional discussion on a topic particularly germane to Yowm Kippurym.












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