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Offline Matthew  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, May 10, 2011 1:02:28 PM(UTC)
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bigritchie wrote:
You mean the 18 or so verses that seem to suggest that "Jesus is God" that the christians even admit are all bogus or textual additions?

While ignoring the hundreds upon hundreds of verses that prove he is NOT God?

Just because the Roman Empire got together and voted Caesar to be a god, does not mean he is a god either! Just because they vote the last Pope to be a "Saint" does not magically make him one either.


The above quote has been taken from bigritchie's post from the Questioning Paul Review thread.

bigritchie wanted a thread that hadn't been hijacked by the Swalchy and Robski debate. So I've created a new thread about something that I've been wanting to discuss for quite some time. So please, keep this thread clean, no drama. You can see bigritchie's remark over the hijacking HERE.

Moving on...

The following two verses suggest to me that Yahshua is Yahweh.?

Isaiah 48:12-13 “Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am He; I am the First and I am the Last. My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.”

Revelation 1:8,17-18 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Yahweh God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” ... When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.”

So can a man be God and is Yahshua God, is he Yahweh?
Offline FredSnell  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, May 10, 2011 1:49:33 PM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
So can a man be God and is Yahshua God, is he Yahweh?


While I just love Psalms 40, and read it almost every day as a reminder to me alone, in my own understanding, I think we get the answer in some way, from Psalm 100.

Psalm 100

100:1 Make a joyful noise unto YHWH, all ye lands.

100:2 Serve YHWH with gladness: come before his presence with singing.

100:3 Know ye that YHWH he is Elohim: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

100:4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.

100:5 For YHWH is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.


Thanks!
Offline bigritchie  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:26:02 AM(UTC)
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Of course he is not. He said so over and over himself. Of course this is always ignored in favor of the few verses that seem to suggest it.

Here are just 2 examples of various "verses" or numbered soundbytes people use to say

Blows Isaiah 9:6 out of the water. From a Ancient Hebrew Scholar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXPnrhvxrZg

or how about the John chapter 1 stuff people always bring up? Are you guys aware that is a quote from the Hindu Vedas in regards to Brahmin? It also also believed the entire chapter of John 1 was edited in at a later date. It is well known that various verses like Matthew 28:19 and the 1 John "Comma" are textual edits to promote the "trinity" and the idea that Jesus and God are the same being.

These are just 2 examples out of many.

Here is a website that goes through virtually the entire so called "New Testament" and every single "verse" that seems to suggest "Jesus is God".

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/trinity_art.html
Offline Daniel  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:13:27 AM(UTC)
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bigritchie wrote:
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/trinity_art.html



I like how this guy states his first 15 bullet points.

(Mostly because he agrees with me!)

Yahushua is OF god, but not ALL THAT THERE IS of god.
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline FredSnell  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, May 11, 2011 10:25:54 AM(UTC)
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When you say, "of course not," I wish I could be that certain.

It's do others see Yahushua in me, in my mind. How well do I reflect His image, since being made in YHWHs image. If I'm in His image, well I certainly wouldn't have created me and many others when I wouldn't have needed to. If I had, Yahushua as my Son and all my malaks at my command why would I, if I had the choice?
Why does Yah desire a relationship with me, if His Son sits at His right hand?
Offline bigritchie  
#6 Posted : Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:44:18 AM(UTC)
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encounterHim wrote:
When you say, "of course not," I wish I could be that certain.

It's do others see Yahushua in me, in my mind. How well do I reflect His image, since being made in YHWHs image. If I'm in His image, well I certainly wouldn't have created me and many others when I wouldn't have needed to. If I had, Yahushua as my Son and all my malaks at my command why would I, if I had the choice?
Why does Yah desire a relationship with me, if His Son sits at His right hand?


Because you are his son also!

That is another massive lie of christianity, that only Jesus is the son of God. (Solomon would like a word with all christians that disagree hehe)

By the way, the image is another good point. Adam was made in the image of God, that does not mean Adam is God. Y'shua prayed his Apostles would be "One" that does not mean they were One person, nor does it mean they were God. My wife and I are to become one, but that does not mean we are the same person or that we are God!

In fact I would point out, the very fact that Y'shua sits down at the right hand of his Father, proves 100% he is NOT his Father!
Offline cgb2  
#7 Posted : Thursday, May 12, 2011 8:05:40 AM(UTC)
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Interesting thread. A few to ponder:

...Isa 40:10 See, the Master יהוה comes with a strong hand, and His arm rules for Him. See, His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him....

Isa 53:1 Who has believed our report? And to whom was the arm of יהוה revealed?....

...Jer 23:5 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall raise for Dawiḏ a Branch1 of righteousness, and a Sovereign shall reign and act wisely, and shall do right-ruling and righteousness in the earth. Footnote: 1Or sprout.
Jer 23:6 “In His days Yehuḏah shall be saved, and Yisra’ĕl dwell safely. And this is His Name whereby He shall be called: ‘יהוה our Righteousness.’...

Isa 7:14 “Therefore יהוה Himself gives you a sign: Look, the maiden conceives and gives birth to a Son, and shall call His Name Immanu’ĕl1. Footnote: Ěl with us. See also Matt. 1:23....

...Isa 9:6 For a Child shall be born unto us, a Son shall be given unto us, and the rule is on His shoulder. And His Name is called Wonder, Counsellor, Strong Ěl, Father of Continuity, Prince of Peace....
Offline FredSnell  
#8 Posted : Thursday, May 12, 2011 8:34:01 AM(UTC)
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Okay then, let me say this. My own sons, who do by chance work for me, if either left during working hrs to do some job I have given either to do. I see both working for me, representing my interest, but are seperate from me, but actually are me if they don't (or do) complete their task. The recourse (or compliment) of the customer would fall upon my interest, not theirs. So I'm still trying to grasp this setting apart one from the other if both intrested parties are working for the same cause. I see your point BR, about the apostles being of one mind, but too, when Yahushua says He and the Father are one, does that mean only, that their interest are the same, or is that Him walking amongst us, since Abraham through Moses right on up to Yahushua, He was telling us how we come to know Him through leaving the things that can ruin a relationship with Him, behind us, before we can know Him. Abe got it right, but the ppl fell back, and so did Moses get it, but again they fell back in and Father knew this was going to happen? I say yes and He knew it, and that's the reason He walked with us to show us once and for all. If you can seprate yourself from these trappings, the treasures He has stored up are worth it, but remember when you do, gov'ts and religions will be biting at your heal until that day He returns and rights the wrongs on man.

Edited by user Thursday, May 12, 2011 10:36:11 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline FredSnell  
#9 Posted : Thursday, May 12, 2011 10:23:38 AM(UTC)
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Daniel wrote:

Yahushua is OF god, but not ALL THAT THERE IS of god.


Maybe verse 3 and 9 helps answers the question??? For me, still seeking answers!


2 John

1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

1:3 Favour be with you, mercy, and peace, from Yahushua the Messiah the Father, and from the Master Yahushua the Messiah, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Yahushua the Messiah is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antimessiah.

1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of the Messiah, hath not Elohim. He that abideth in the doctrine of the Messiah, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him peace:

1:11 For he that biddeth him peace is partaker of his evil deeds.

1:12 Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. amein.

Offline Yah Tselem  
#10 Posted : Friday, May 13, 2011 9:17:40 AM(UTC)
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Taken from YY, Yasha
(YashaYahu / Isaiah 49:4-7) "I said, ‘I am poured out (riq), laboring (yaga’ - toiling and growing weary) in the depths (tahowm - from tohuw, formless, empty void, ruinous wasteland of destruction, chaos, confusion, and false testimony (a.k.a., Sheol)). My strength (koah - power, resources, and energy) and breath (hebel - soul, the vapor of life) are finished (kalah - gone). Surely (‘aken) My case and cause (mispat - My sentence in deciding the dispute) is Yahuweh’s. My recompense (pa’ulah - authority, reward, and situation) is I am (‘ani) God (‘elohym)." (YashaYahu / Isaiah 49:4) As God, Yahshua is perfect, and thus His is the only one qualified and capable of accepting the sentence of those who are actually guilty.
Next, God explains the purpose serving as the Sacrificial Lamb. "And so then Yahuweh says, ‘He formed (yasar - fashioned and forged) You from the womb (beten) to be His Servant (‘ebed - from ‘abad meaning implement who serves) to return (suwb - change and restore) Ya’aqob (father of the 12 tribes) to (‘el) Him (hu), gathering (‘asap - bringing together and harvesting) Yisra’el (those who strive with and are empowered by God) to Him." (YashaYahu / Isaiah 49:5) One of the most repeated predictions in Scripture, second only to the arrival of the Messiyah, is the restoration of Yisra’el.
The only person qualified to say these words without bragging is Yahshua: "For I am massively important, honored, and glorified (kabed - extremely significant and distinguished, holding a highly exalted status) in the eyes (‘ayin - perception and presence) of Yahuweh. God (‘elohym) was, is, and will be (hayah - exists as) My supporter (‘azar - helper, assistant, and aid).’" (YashaYahu / Isaiah 49:5)
Yahweh is speaking and.."He says, "He is a diminished (qalal - smaller in energy and mass and lower in elevation) part of (min - from) Me, on behalf of (la - to, toward and concerning) you (‘atah), existing as (hayah) My (‘ani) servant (‘ebed / ‘abad - implement for work and service) to stand up for and establish, to restore (quwm - validate, confirm, and raise up) the tribes (sebet - clans, family, and people) of Ya’aqob, and to change, restore (suwb - turn around, alter, recover, renew, return) and preserve (nasar - protect and keep, spare and shelter) Yisra’el (those who strive with and are empowered by God)." (YashaYahu / Isaiah 49:6) Everything you need to know is encapsulated in these words. Yahshua is the "diminished manifestation of" Yahweh, "part of" Him, sent to us, for our benefit. And before Yisra’el, or us for that matter, can be "preserved, sheltered, and protected" we must first be "restored, changed and renewed." That process is the direct result of Yahweh "standing up for us, establishing us" so that we can stand with Him. God is saying that He will stand up for you and me, accepting our sentence.
But this turn of fortune was not limited to Yisra’el.."I will give You as a gift (natan ‘atah - bestow, deliver, and entrust you as a present) to (la - in order to) provide light to (‘owr - to shine brightly, illuminating) Gentiles (gowyim - non-Jewish nations and peoples), existing as (hayah) I Am (‘ani - as a marker of affirmation, of identity, and of being present as) Yashuw’ah (salvation) to the distant limits (qaseh - far extent or ends of) the land, earth, world, and space (‘erets), says (‘amar - promises and declares) Yahuweh, Redeemer (ga’al) of Yisra’el, the Set Apart One (qadowsh)." (YashaYahu / Isaiah 49:6-7)
Offline Yah Tselem  
#11 Posted : Friday, May 13, 2011 9:20:19 AM(UTC)
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"Yahuweh ‘Elohiym Yashuw’ah." (Psalm 88:1)
Offline danshelper  
#12 Posted : Friday, May 13, 2011 1:35:14 PM(UTC)
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1 Corinthians 12:3 (NIV) “Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.”

In an article on an Aramaic website regarding the word “miltha” – used in John 1 – “In the beginning was the Miltha (Word)”, it suggests that 1 Corinthians 12:3 reads “YHWH is Y’shua” (http://www.peshitta.org/bethgazza/Mystery%20of%20Miltha.htm).

On Swalchy’s site, The Way to Yahuweh, the verse reads: “… nor is anyone, anybody or anything powerful to say, “Yahushua* is Yahuweh*”, except in, by and with the Set-Apart and Cleansed Spirit*.”

From what little I have read, the Aramaic word “miltha” means a lot more than just “spoken word”, but actually means “substance, essence, emanation, manifestation.” (The article above gives a great explanation.) So, from the Aramaic and Swalchy’s versions of 1 Corinthians 12:3, along with the meaning of the word “miltha”, a summary might be that: Yahushua is the manifestation of YHWH, or the manifestation of YHWH is Yahushua. This seems to me to agree with Yada’s - ‘Yhay’el, or Yshayah'el – “God existing as man.”

YHWH, being incorporeal/Spirit – the intangible, invisible quality of pure righteousness – fully manifested Himself in Yahushua who was filled with the fullness of YHWH/Righteousness – Isaiah 11:1-5, Colossians 2:9, John 3:34. No other quality or spirit existed in the man Yahushua except the Spirit of YHWH/Righteousness. Agree?
Offline RebeccaJoy  
#13 Posted : Saturday, August 27, 2011 6:46:30 PM(UTC)
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danshelper wrote:

From what little I have read, the Aramaic word “miltha” means a lot more than just “spoken word”, but actually means “substance, essence, emanation, manifestation.” (The article above gives a great explanation.) So, from the Aramaic and Swalchy’s versions of 1 Corinthians 12:3, along with the meaning of the word “miltha”, a summary might be that: Yahushua is the manifestation of YHWH, or the manifestation of YHWH is Yahushua. This seems to me to agree with Yada’s - ‘Yhay’el, or Yshayah'el – “God existing as man.”

YHWH, being incorporeal/Spirit – the intangible, invisible quality of pure righteousness – fully manifested Himself in Yahushua who was filled with the fullness of YHWH/Righteousness – Isaiah 11:1-5, Colossians 2:9, John 3:34. No other quality or spirit existed in the man Yahushua except the Spirit of YHWH/Righteousness. Agree?


Disagree AND agree. No disrespect intended in my reply...

John 3:16 (KJV) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Begotten.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/begotten
verb (used with object), be·got or ( Archaic ) be·gat; be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting.
1. (especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2. to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.

Yes, Yahushua is the manifestation of YHWH. But "manifestation" as an adjective not a noun.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/manifesting
adj.
Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious. See Synonyms at apparent.
tr.v. man·i·fest·ed, man·i·fest·ing, man·i·fests
1. To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal: "Mercedes . . . manifested the chaotic abandonment of hysteria" (Jack London).
2. To be evidence of; prove.
3.
a. To record in a ship's manifest.
b. To display or present a manifest of (cargo).
n.
1. A list of cargo or passengers carried on a ship or plane.
2. An invoice of goods carried on a truck or train.
3. A list of railroad cars according to owner and location.

Begotten.
Not incarnated either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation

I am a nontrinitarian, monotheistic believer.
Deuteronomy 6:4-9

Peace and blessings to Yadayahweh fellowship.


Matthew 7:7
Offline Noach  
#14 Posted : Monday, August 29, 2011 6:49:10 PM(UTC)
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Rebecca,

Check the Greek words that your bible is supposedly translating. Here is the translation Yada has provided:

For God so loved the world that He gave (didomi – delivered,bestowed as a gift, put Himself in our place) His one and only Son (huios – term of relationship and association), that whoever relies upon (pisteuo – trusts and
believes in) Him shall not perish (apollumi – be destroyed, be lost, abolished,
put to an end, and become dead) but have eternal life (aionios zoe).”

You are relying on a word that may not be part of the actual Greek text.

I am a nonPauline, nonreligious, truster in Yahowah’s salvation (Yahusha).

Noah
Offline KM Richards  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, August 31, 2011 7:28:14 AM(UTC)
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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

God, and what He says (His Word), and the power that make it effective (the Holy Ghost)...cannot be separated.

God's Word took upon Himself flesh, and He suffered the penalty for sin which was death (separation from God) because the blood of bulls and goats can only cover sin and never remove it like the perfect Blood of Jesus Christ can.

If you reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior...you'll burn in hell for all eternity!

Hope your eternity is a pleasant one...
Offline FredSnell  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, August 31, 2011 8:57:50 AM(UTC)
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KM Richards wrote:
If you reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior...you'll burn in hell for all eternity!

Hope your eternity is a pleasant one...



Is this the last plague?
Offline James  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, August 31, 2011 10:30:55 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
KM] If you reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior...you'll burn in hell for all eternity!

I reject that anyone named Jesus Christ ever lived, and have evidence to prove it, so where’s that leave me?

KM wrote:
Hope your eternity is a pleasant one...

How loving of you.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline sonofYAH  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, November 22, 2011 10:21:40 AM(UTC)
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Heres the truth,

First off his names Yeshua.

As the prophet wrote he would come speaking in parables, that he did do to hide his identity. So only the children of God would understand.

When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. John 12:45

He said right there when you look at him, you look upon the father.

God is a spirit, he's everywere and un conceivable. He is the image and the embodiment of YHVH.

Those whose intellects Satan has blinded, because they do not believe, lest the light of The Gospel of the glory of The Messiah, who is the image of God, should dawn upon them. 2 cor 4:4


By him was everything created which is in Heaven and in The Earth: everything that is seen and everything that is unseen, whether Thrones or Dominions or Principalities or Rulers; everything has been created by his hand and in him. col 1:16
Paralell*
gen 1:1 In the beggining YAH created the heavens and the earth.


1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 14:8-9 Philippus said to him, “Our Lord, show us The Father, and it is sufficient for us.” 9Yeshua said to him, “All this time I am with you and you have not known me Phillip? Whoever has seen me has seen The Father, and how do you say, 'Show us The Father'?”



zech 12:10 And I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look on me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


I made this it goes in it pretty deep http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RMz7WuaQXs



Verses saying he's God,

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Romans 9:5 And the Patriarchs; and from them The Messiah appeared in the flesh, who is The God Who is over all, to Whom are praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities, amen.



Offline James  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, November 23, 2011 4:32:44 AM(UTC)
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sonofYAH wrote:

First off his names Yeshua.


First off, aside from quoting Paul I agree with what you wrote, Yahowsha is Yahowah.

That said you stat as Truth that his name was Yeshua, which is not true.

His name is spelled Yod Hey Waw Shin Hey

The Yod makes a Y sound every time it is used in Hebrew.
The Hey predominantly makes a AH sound with a significantly less amount of time making a EH.
The Yod Hey combination almost always makes the Yah sound as in Yahowah, EliYah, YasahYah, YeremeYah, MoriYah, etc. In addition Yah, Yod Hey, is the shortened form of Yahowah which is why names like EliYah mean God is Yah, and YashaYah means Salvation is from Yah.
The Waw makes the OW sound as in Towrah, Shalowm, Elowah, and Gowyim, just to name a few
The Shin makes an Sh sound every time it is used, i.e. Shalowm, Yahrushalem, and Shimown.
and the brings us back to the Hey making the ah sound.

You put it together and you get Yahowshah or Yahowsha, since the h wouldn't be needed on the end to transliterate the sounds into English.

Yeshua would be Yod Shin Waw Hey and it appears nowhere in Scripture. In fact it's only appearance in any early Jewish manuscripts is in the Talmud where it appears as the name of an ungrateful son, and also as an acronym for "he who's name should be blotted out."


Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline dajstill  
#20 Posted : Thursday, November 24, 2011 12:50:45 AM(UTC)
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Please excuse my ignorance, this is my first attempt at answering a question on here and I still have a LOT to learn. However, this question was with me for a large part of the night as I had to think about it really hard. I am still not ready to say for certain that Yahshua (I think I am spelling that right, maybe?) and Yahweh are the same, but I do believe they are One. The reason I think Yahshua spent so much time telling people that He and the Father were One is because of what is happening in Christianity and Judaism today. I still belong to a Christian church and what sent me on my journey was what seemed to be a worshiping of the Son without the Father. I honestly believe the average Christian looks at Yahshua as a lawyer who is going to help them put one over on God. The favorite line is "God knows I am not perfect, that is why Jesus died". I believe they plan on using that line to get away with almost every abomination known to man today. To them, "Jesus" is a get out of hell free card.
The truth is many LOVE Yahshua with all their heart, they aren't however very found of Yahweh. He is mean and judgemental while Yahshua is kind and forgiving to them. They love Yahshua while they hate (in the most literal sense - meaning to love less) Yahweh. Yahshua was telling us you must take both. You don't get one without the other. Many in the Jewish religion want Yahweh without Yahshua and many in the Christian religion would gladly take Yahshua off of their hands and leave them with Yahweh alone. Yahshua is telling us no deal - they are One. We cannot come to a decision on if they are two separate or not because they are not divisible. They are always, at all times, in perfect agreement. The one time (if it is true, I understand there are some things in the Renewed Covenant Scriptures that are debatable) there was even a hint of disagreement or really hesitation, Yahshua said clearly "nevertheless, not my will, but Thine be done". They are One and the One that is leading, guiding, and orchestrating it all is Yahweh.
I think this is a clear message that you must eat all of the Word - you don't get a free pass by saying "well, I did the words of Yahweh, I just didn't realize the Messiah" and you also don't get to say, "well, I followed the words of Yahshua, I just didn't understand what Yahweh expected of me". No, they are One and you are not following one if you are leaving aside the other. So, even if they are two distinctly different "people", it doesn't matter. They are so absolutely on one accord that Yahshua could say with confidence "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father" - because Yahweh would not have done or said anything any differently than Yahshua. His message is (in today's lingo) - look Christians, you can't say you Love me more than the Father or that you are drawn to me and not the Father because we are in complete agreement. If you have a problem with something the Father did or the Father said to do, you have a problem with me as well, because we are in complete agreement. If you want to see how the average Christian views the Father - look at any Christian parenting book. They will tell you it is the job of the parent to discipline the child - but that discipline is always harsh. It is supposed to hurt much more than the infraction, so that the child develops "appropriate fear" so that you will eventually get "first time obedience". Christian parents are told to start to spank their children as early as six months old because the child is "born wicked" and must be beat into submission. If you are a "good parent", by the child becomes are teenager their "will" is automatically in line with yours. You know you did a good job if they automatically "think" like you. And, any Christian will tell you that the WORST thing a parent can do is to try and be a child's "friend". However, they will tell you that God is their Father, while Jesus is their Friend. To them God is an all seeing all eye that is constantly viewing not only their actions, but their thoughts and meticulously recording every single wrong deed. However, the loving Savior will come to their aid on judgement day and cause God not to see their sins, or to "remind God" that "Jesus" already died to cover those. Even with the thief on the cross (and I believe that may have been added), because he is told He will be in paradise with Yahshua - there is no mention of Yahweh. And that is just fine for many Christians, they will finally be able to be from out of sight of the merciless record keeping tracking every wrong and waiting to judge. Christians are going to have to come to terms with the fact that Yahweh didn't change, He is the same as when He dictated the Old Covenant and they must learn the truth and Love that God as well as Yahshua.
However, I think Yahshua was also saying, and look Jews - if you are going to sit here and reject me you are rejecting the Father as well. He wouldn't have done anything differently, you wouldn't have recognized him because he would have looked like me, acted like me, and spoken like me to you. So, if you don't accept me because you don't recognize me then you don't really know Him - because we are in total agreement. They have been fed the lie (that didn't used to be in their believe) that as long as they are meticulously keeping the Talmud, they are okay and Yahweh will be sending a Deliverer. No longer needing a Redeemer in their mind, they are just ready for the rescue, thinking they might not need the redeemer. They look at Christians and think "of course they are going to need a good lawyer, they are constantly breaking the law!" What they need is someone to come and fight a final battle for them, so bring it on, they are tired of living with the unclean. They don't understand they are going to have to accept all of Yahshua - His role in the First visit as well as His redemption in His final return. They are going to have to admit they didn't recognize Him because they weren't as close to Yahweh as they thought; if they were really that close they would have seen the Father through Yahshua and readily accepted Him, even today.
Yahshua had to make it clear that they are a package deal, completely inseparably and non divisible. It matters not if they are attached at the hip, sitting next to each other on two different thrones, or One the morphs shape. The point is they are One as in total agreement with one doing exactly what the other would have done, one saying exactly what the other would have said, and one calling exactly whom the other would have called.

I hope this makes sense and please do correct my thinking of this if there are flaws in logic or understanding. I am still learning!
Offline bigritchie  
#21 Posted : Thursday, November 24, 2011 5:27:38 AM(UTC)
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KM Richards wrote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

God, and what He says (His Word), and the power that make it effective (the Holy Ghost)...cannot be separated.

God's Word took upon Himself flesh, and He suffered the penalty for sin which was death (separation from God) because the blood of bulls and goats can only cover sin and never remove it like the perfect Blood of Jesus Christ can.

If you reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior...you'll burn in hell for all eternity!

Hope your eternity is a pleasant one...


So yea..........John 1:1 is a direct quote from the Hindu Vedas which was written a thousand years before John, it is a quote in regards to Brahmin. It is paganism. Most christians have never read the Hindu Vedas though and are ignorant of this.





Offline sonofYAH  
#22 Posted : Monday, November 28, 2011 11:18:38 AM(UTC)
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bigritchie wrote:
So yea..........John 1:1 is a direct quote from the Hindu Vedas which was written a thousand years before John, it is a quote in regards to Brahmin. It is paganism. Most christians have never read the Hindu Vedas though and are ignorant of this.








Ya and the date the texts were written no one knows. Ill stick with my God ;) You are considered anti christ... Satan is very deceiving and cunning and is working through your heart to turn believers away. You need to think very carefully about what youre doing. I can prove youre wrong.
Offline James  
#23 Posted : Monday, November 28, 2011 11:31:14 AM(UTC)
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sonofYAH wrote:
You are considered anti christ... Satan is very deceiving and cunning and is working through your heart to turn believers away. You need to think very carefully about what youre doing. I can prove youre wrong.


If you can prove him wrong then you are free to do so, but use evidence and reason, and please refrain from name calling.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline FredSnell  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:43:56 AM(UTC)
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If using, 2nd Peter 2.1, I would even be careful there b/c we can't be certain.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudepigraph
Offline sonofYAH  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, November 29, 2011 11:40:40 AM(UTC)
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This is laughable.. lets have him post his evidence first. I would rather he shove his own sword through his heart. Its my style before I pull mine out.

Go ahead, prove your claim worthy of being considered truth.
Offline FredSnell  
#26 Posted : Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:52:45 PM(UTC)
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sonofYAH wrote:
This is laughable.. lets have him post his evidence first. I would rather he shove his own sword through his heart. Its my style before I pull mine out.

Go ahead, prove your claim worthy of being considered truth.



pls chk your pm...thanks!
Offline sonofYAH  
#27 Posted : Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:38:34 AM(UTC)
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encounterHim wrote:
pls chk your pm...thanks!


I did, and you are very diffrent than I assumed. I want to appologize... I respect youre stance in this. Seeking the true path. I am doing the same my brothers. I am just doing the same...

Forgive me for the aggression I kind of freaked out.


I want to be perfectly clear with you all... Yeshua has spoken to me which is why I know its just deception. He spoke to me once spirit to spirit, without words. But it was definately very real and intense. He said "if you loved You wouldnt steal, murder, covet, lie, etc... apply it to any commandment. Love and you will never sin, in one word the entire law of God is fulfilled "love"" Not in exact words, its been a year since...

And then I felt "cut off" from him once... And I prayed from my heart with everything in me to him for a good amount of time without ceasing, and he said "My sheep hear my voice" just like it reads in the bible from what Yeshua him self said!

And at 17 I was praying to him to strip away the demons of lust, pride, anger, lying, and stealing, all things I was falling to the flesh with. And I heard a voice right beside me clear as day "Strip them all awayyyy" almost as if it were mocking me.

Another experience was when I was invited by some friends to a party, and they said they would pick me up and I could ride with them. I heard "Satan is trying to destroy you" and I had a flash vision of a car wreck. The next morning I find out they decimated there car in a wreck.... I didnt go because of that, there's no explanation for these experiences.

My faith is extremely bold, I know just like my mother exists that Yeshua does. I know his spirits all around us, the true form of God. YHVH him self.


I cant accept that to be true ok? I know Yeshua's word's are life. And I know he is the way, the path that leads to eternal life. He is my father HaShem.



I will prove that hindu literature to be wrong, you all have my word brothers. I swear by my own soul I wont quit till I get to the bottom of it. I'm here to show you all Yeshua is the true God. As we all search for the true path, I'm just a voice by the way side dont let anything I post offend you. And you wont offend me. Let us reason and grow together. I love the mindset here.
Offline FredSnell  
#28 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2011 1:52:50 AM(UTC)
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We are all here to learn, son. No person here will hold you down, or stand in your way as you exercise your freedom in discovering who your Creator actually is. Might try correcting you if you stumble too far, but that's a good thing. "Fear" is the beginning of knowledge. That fear though, isn't the scarey type you might be accoustomed to. It's the fear that you will not find the path that was deliniated in the Torah and in that, His love shines brightly for us all. And once you see feel this, Love, you know what that fear was about. You fear losing it!

I welcome you and look forward to what you find and relate to others.
Offline bigritchie  
#29 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2011 6:09:41 AM(UTC)
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sonofYAH wrote:
I did, and you are very diffrent than I assumed. I want to appologize... I respect youre stance in this. Seeking the true path. I am doing the same my brothers. I am just doing the same...

Forgive me for the aggression I kind of freaked out.


I want to be perfectly clear with you all... Yeshua has spoken to me which is why I know its just deception. He spoke to me once spirit to spirit, without words. But it was definately very real and intense. He said "if you loved You wouldnt steal, murder, covet, lie, etc... apply it to any commandment. Love and you will never sin, in one word the entire law of God is fulfilled "love"" Not in exact words, its been a year since...

And then I felt "cut off" from him once... And I prayed from my heart with everything in me to him for a good amount of time without ceasing, and he said "My sheep hear my voice" just like it reads in the bible from what Yeshua him self said!

And at 17 I was praying to him to strip away the demons of lust, pride, anger, lying, and stealing, all things I was falling to the flesh with. And I heard a voice right beside me clear as day "Strip them all awayyyy" almost as if it were mocking me.

Another experience was when I was invited by some friends to a party, and they said they would pick me up and I could ride with them. I heard "Satan is trying to destroy you" and I had a flash vision of a car wreck. The next morning I find out they decimated there car in a wreck.... I didnt go because of that, there's no explanation for these experiences.

My faith is extremely bold, I know just like my mother exists that Yeshua does. I know his spirits all around us, the true form of God. YHWH him self.


I cant accept that to be true ok? I know Yeshua's word's are life. And I know he is the way, the path that leads to eternal life. He is my father HaShem.



I will prove that hindu literature to be wrong, you all have my word brothers. I swear by my own soul I wont quit till I get to the bottom of it. I'm here to show you all Yeshua is the true God. As we all search for the true path, I'm just a voice by the way side dont let anything I post offend you. And you wont offend me. Let us reason and grow together. I love the mindset here.



#1 Just because something is in that thing called "The Bible" does not mean it is "God's word" or "Yeshua's word".

#2 What I said above was undeniable, and it is 100% truth. I gave you a direct quote from the Hindu Vedas. Now you can face the truth. Or you can respond with emotion and religious fervor. Sorry if it hurts your feelings, or makes emotional religious fervor explode within you, but the truth is the truth.

#3 Just because someone does not have the exact same beliefs as you, does not mean they are "Anti-Christ". My statements are nothing against Y'shua, my statement was to point out the fact that the entire concept of Trinity, or Jesus being the word made flesh comes from paganism. Sorry, I didn't like this stuff when I learned it either.

#4 You better stop being a religious zealot and swearing on your own soul. That could be very foolish if you are wrong. There are over 5,800 Greek NT text and none of them agree and there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of differences. Also what I told you is not some super secret. It is well known among academia and scholars and people who have read the Vedas.

#5 Claiming to be correct "because Jesus told me so" is silly and delving into religious fantasy land. I find it amusing how everyone I have ever heard make that claim "Jesus told me" was never told one thing that disagreed with their own personal religious beliefs. Hearing voices or seeing things does not magically make you correct.

Offline bigritchie  
#30 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2011 6:15:00 AM(UTC)
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And here is the direct quote

"PRAJAPATHI VAI AGRE ASSET;-----
[In the beginning was Prajapathi-the Brahman-the GOD]
TASYA VAI DVITIYA ASEET------
[ with whom was the word]
VAG VAI PARAMA BRAHMAN-----
[and the word was verily the supreme Brahman-the God]"

This is thousands of years older then John 1:1
Offline FredSnell  
#31 Posted : Friday, December 2, 2011 2:14:49 AM(UTC)
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bigritchie wrote:
And here is the direct quote

"PRAJAPATHI VAI AGRE ASSET;-----
[In the beginning was Prajapathi-the Brahman-the GOD]
TASYA VAI DVITIYA ASEET------
[ with whom was the word]
VAG VAI PARAMA BRAHMAN-----
[and the word was verily the supreme Brahman-the God]"

This is thousands of years older then John 1:1




Well this let me know why they hold cows so sacred...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brahman calves.
The Brahman or Brahma is a breed of Zebu cattle (Bos primigenius indicus), later exported from India to the rest of the world. The main breeds used were Kankrej, Gujurat, Nelore or Ongole and the Gir or Gyr cattle. It is named for the sacred cow of Hinduism.
Offline bigritchie  
#32 Posted : Friday, December 2, 2011 10:59:02 AM(UTC)
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encounterHim wrote:
Well this let me know why they hold cows so sacred...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brahman calves.
The Brahman or Brahma is a breed of Zebu cattle (Bos primigenius indicus), later exported from India to the rest of the world. The main breeds used were Kankrej, Gujurat, Nelore or Ongole and the Gir or Gyr cattle. It is named for the sacred cow of Hinduism.


Yep you can probably tie that together with Israel's obsession with the Golden Calf too and all the fun things about Tarus, etc etc.
Offline sonofYAH  
#33 Posted : Saturday, December 3, 2011 11:03:02 PM(UTC)
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bigritchie wrote:
And here is the direct quote

"PRAJAPATHI VAI AGRE ASSET;-----
[In the beginning was Prajapathi-the Brahman-the GOD]
TASYA VAI DVITIYA ASEET------
[ with whom was the word]
VAG VAI PARAMA BRAHMAN-----
[and the word was verily the supreme Brahman-the God]"

This is thousands of years older then John 1:1



Ya thats not a direct quote, you copied and pasted that from a google search. Its a hoax, post which one of the four vedas its even found in? Bet you cant ;)
Offline sonofYAH  
#34 Posted : Saturday, December 3, 2011 11:16:32 PM(UTC)
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bigritchie wrote:
#1 Just because something is in that thing called "The Bible" does not mean it is "God's word" or "Yeshua's word".

#2 What I said above was undeniable, and it is 100% truth. I gave you a direct quote from the Hindu Vedas. Now you can face the truth. Or you can respond with emotion and religious fervor. Sorry if it hurts your feelings, or makes emotional religious fervor explode within you, but the truth is the truth.

#3 Just because someone does not have the exact same beliefs as you, does not mean they are "Anti-Christ". My statements are nothing against Y'shua, my statement was to point out the fact that the entire concept of Trinity, or Jesus being the word made flesh comes from paganism. Sorry, I didn't like this stuff when I learned it either.

#4 You better stop being a religious zealot and swearing on your own soul. That could be very foolish if you are wrong. There are over 5,800 Greek NT text and none of them agree and there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of differences. Also what I told you is not some super secret. It is well known among academia and scholars and people who have read the Vedas.

#5 Claiming to be correct "because Jesus told me so" is silly and delving into religious fantasy land. I find it amusing how everyone I have ever heard make that claim "Jesus told me" was never told one thing that disagreed with their own personal religious beliefs. Hearing voices or seeing things does not magically make you correct.



And I never wanted youre help in the way I am. You go on being as you are. Yeshua is my king, and this is idiotic nonsense you cant even prove except for a simple google search some hindu posted to hoax a lot of people. You cant tell me which Vedas it's in or were its even found in that certain vedas. You repeat thing's you read with no foundation. Now who's the fool and who is the wise man?

You're awfully prideful.
Offline FredSnell  
#35 Posted : Monday, December 5, 2011 12:52:28 AM(UTC)
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Well I have not had any thing show me that , John 1 :1, was mentioned by anyone else in hinduism...man did I try.,,,I'm not that good at searches, but I gave it a try and alot of reading that I did find interesting though.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/vedicgods.asp
Offline In His Name  
#36 Posted : Monday, December 5, 2011 6:28:33 AM(UTC)
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It is discussions like this that are moving me further and further from trusting anything written in the "NT".

The Adversary has been creating false religions for a long time. He knows enough to make them credible and in many ways they say the same things as YHWH, usually with a twist. For example, there are many non-YHWH creation and flood and salvation stories throughout history. So it does not surprise me that this bit of text is found elsewhere.

I also did some searching for it, found a source reference for the location, but stopped myself before I found a source for the text. What do I care if it is in both places. If I found it would it challenge my trust in YHWH? No, it would only challenge my already thin trust of the "NT". There are some portions of the 'NT' that I will hate to lose (Revelation), but I am tired of trying to make sense of it.

YHWH wrote the Torah, of that I have no hesitation or doubt.
He preserved it until His advent, then tucked a copy away until the end times.
Perhaps that is His way of saying this is all you need.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline sonofYAH  
#37 Posted : Tuesday, December 6, 2011 7:45:59 AM(UTC)
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In His Name wrote:
It is discussions like this that are moving me further and further from trusting anything written in the "NT".

The Adversary has been creating false religions for a long time. He knows enough to make them credible and in many ways they say the same things as YHWH, usually with a twist. For example, there are many non-YHWH creation and flood and salvation stories throughout history. So it does not surprise me that this bit of text is found elsewhere.

I also did some searching for it, found a source reference for the location, but stopped myself before I found a source for the text. What do I care if it is in both places. If I found it would it challenge my trust in YHWH? No, it would only challenge my already thin trust of the "NT". There are some portions of the 'NT' that I will hate to lose (Revelation), but I am tired of trying to make sense of it.

YHWH wrote the Torah, of that I have no hesitation or doubt.
He preserved it until His advent, then tucked a copy away until the end times.
Perhaps that is His way of saying this is all you need.



This is in the Torah... trust God. Not youre own wisdom or eyes. This right here is the hebrew name meanings for this genealogy from Adam to Noah in gen chapter 5. Dont let Satan over whelm you. I will destroy this confusion. Check back tonight and I'm gonna lay it all out.

Hidden message in genesis chapter 5, the genealogy from Adam to Noah.

Hebrew English

Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort
Offline bigritchie  
#38 Posted : Wednesday, December 7, 2011 5:01:23 AM(UTC)
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sonofYAH wrote:
This is in the Torah... trust God. Not youre own wisdom or eyes. This right here is the hebrew name meanings for this genealogy from Adam to Noah in gen chapter 5. Dont let Satan over whelm you. I will destroy this confusion. Check back tonight and I'm gonna lay it all out.

Hidden message in genesis chapter 5, the genealogy from Adam to Noah.

Hebrew English

Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort


Fyi this is christian nonsense.

Go to a "A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament" by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, and Charles A. Briggs and check it also against "A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament", you fill find that this now reads:

Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Fixed/Acquired
Mahalalel Praise of God
Jared Come or Go down
Enoch Train/Dedicate
Methuselah Man of the Dart
Lamech Wild man, overthrower
Noah Rest

Not to even mention that Adam can mean earth and "El" does not mean "God" in the first place but "mighty one with authority" or if used in the plural can mean either "mighty ONES with authority" or "Mighty one with authority over the mighty ones"

Now could this have been used to show earth being appointed mortal sorry and the righteous TEACHER coming and bringing the mortals comfort? Sure. But it has zero to do with #1 a sin sacrifice, or #2 Jesus being God. (Not to even mention that many of these words have multiple meanings and even more meaning when broken down into root words or Paleo Hebrew.)

Funny enough Methuselah even in strongs means "man of the dart". Or the more well known mean of the flood "When he dies it shall be sent (the dart which causes the flood)"

Even at best if you use Chuck Missler's view here (which has even been discredited in christian circles which urge christians not to use this on Jews because it is not accurate!) at best you have a mighty being coming down to teach mankind who brings the despairing a rest or shabbat!
Offline In His Name  
#39 Posted : Wednesday, December 7, 2011 6:11:48 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
bigritchie wrote:
You mean the 18 or so verses that seem to suggest that "Jesus is God" that the christians even admit are all bogus or textual additions?

While ignoring the hundreds upon hundreds of verses that prove he is NOT God?

Just because the Roman Empire got together and voted Caesar to be a god, does not mean he is a god either! Just because they vote the last Pope to be a "Saint" does not magically make him one either.


"For unto us a child (yeled - young boy) is born (yalad - is given birth and brought forth), unto us a Son (ben) is given (nathan yatan - eternally bestowed, entrusted and granted, delivered up, allowed to pay, and assigned to be afflicted)... His name (shem) will be called out, recited and read aloud (qara’ - proclaimed and summoned): Wonderful (pele’ - marvelously performing, separate, powerful, and extraordinary; miraculous and astounding non-verbal sign or portent pertaining to one’s attitude) Counselor (ya’ats - advisor, consultant, one who speaks and urges), Almighty (gibor - mighty man; from gabar, one who prevails and is great, confirming and giving strength) God (‘el), Eternal (‘ad - perpetual and continuous) Father (‘ab - head of family), Prince (sar - overseer and patron) of Redemption (shalowm - favor and salvation, the blessing of completeness, soundness, health, prosperity, tranquility, contentment, friendship, companionship, and relationship; from shalam, to pay recompense, to reward and to restore, to provide a means of return by redemption, restitution and making amends)." (Isaiah 9:6)
"...Almighty (gibor - mighty; from gabar, one who prevails and is great, confirming and giving strength) God ('el), Eternal ('ad - perpetual and continuous) Father ('ab - head of the family), Patron (sar - sponsor, overseer, and provider of, master with authority; the first in position and time, leader and ruler) of Redemption (shalowm - favor and salvation, the blessings of completeness, health, peace, tranquility, contentment, friendship, companionship, and relationship; a reward that brings prosperity and rest)." (Isaiah 9:6)
"Of the exceeding greatness and magnitude of (marbeh - the abundance of the multitude of offspring resulting from) His favor and restoration (shalowm - recompense and restitution, completeness and perfection, prosperity and peace, rest and reward, friendship and blessing) and of His supreme authority and power (misrah - dominion and rule, government and sovereignty; from sarah, meaning to have power, to persist and preserve) nothing ('ayin) will ever diminish throughout all of space-time (qets - they are infinite, and without limit or constraint, in space and in time)." (Isaiah 9:7)
"He shall rule upon the throne (kicce') of David (dawid - of love) and in the midst of ('al - on behalf of and for the sake of) His realm (mamlakah - kingdom and dominion), rendering it sure and prosperous (kuwn - establishing it upright, prepared, and firm; stable and secure; enduring and steadfast), restoring and renewing it (sa'ad - supporting, upholding, strengthening, and comforting; healing, refreshing, and sustaining) with verdicts that are just (mishpat - judgments and decisions which are proper and fitting), vindicating and justified (tsadaqah - making you appear innocent, righteous, and upright) from this time forth ('attah - now) and forevermore ('ad 'owlam - for continuous existence throughout all eternity, for an unlimited duration of time without end). The passion (qinah - intense feeling, energy, deep devotion, and enduring love) of Yahuweh (YHWH), of the assembled servants (tsaba' - Yahuweh's spiritual messengers (a.k.a. angels)), will accomplish, produce, and perform this work ('asah - will fashion and achieve this effect, endeavor, cause, labor, and offering) as man, as 'Yshayah'el (a compound of 'el, God, hayah, existing as, and 'ysh, man)!" (Yasha'yahu/Isaiah 9:7)
YHWH wrote:
Yahuwah… will perform this work as man,,,
Yshayah’el = GOD EXISTING AS MAN


Quote:
Hidden message in genesis chapter 5, the genealogy from Adam to Noah.


There may be hidden messages in Scripture, I don't know or care. What YHWH wants us to know is the straight text.

“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline sonofYAH  
#40 Posted : Wednesday, December 7, 2011 8:45:20 PM(UTC)
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bigritchie wrote:
Fyi this is christian nonsense.

Go to a "A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament" by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, and Charles A. Briggs and check it also against "A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament", you fill find that this now reads:

Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Fixed/Acquired
Mahalalel Praise of God
Jared Come or Go down
Enoch Train/Dedicate
Methuselah Man of the Dart
Lamech Wild man, overthrower
Noah Rest

Not to even mention that Adam can mean earth and "El" does not mean "God" in the first place but "mighty one with authority" or if used in the plural can mean either "mighty ONES with authority" or "Mighty one with authority over the mighty ones"

Now could this have been used to show earth being appointed mortal sorry and the righteous TEACHER coming and bringing the mortals comfort? Sure. But it has zero to do with #1 a sin sacrifice, or #2 Jesus being God. (Not to even mention that many of these words have multiple meanings and even more meaning when broken down into root words or Paleo Hebrew.)

Funny enough Methuselah even in strongs means "man of the dart". Or the more well known mean of the flood "When he dies it shall be sent (the dart which causes the flood)"

Even at best if you use Chuck Missler's view here (which has even been discredited in christian circles which urge christians not to use this on Jews because it is not accurate!) at best you have a mighty being coming down to teach mankind who brings the despairing a rest or shabbat!


I must ask you to excuse my ignorance, I see now that those names have a myriad of meanings. Alternate translations were used as fillers in ones such as Methuselahs. His name is alternatively "His death shall bring". So take it as you will.

Its nice to have a living reprover of information. Always ready to stab at you, always keeping you on youre toes. I may not like you but you are useful and have your purpose.

Not on to more meaningful things, I found the answer to the John 1:1 verse being in the vedas... it actually wasnt in the Rig Veda...

Im getting the sources, and info together. Be back to post it all soon.
Offline cgb2  
#41 Posted : Thursday, December 8, 2011 3:05:11 AM(UTC)
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Re’shith - Genesis Chapter 15
1After (‘achar - following and pertaining to) these (‘el-leh) words (dabar - conversations and matters involving communication; messages and news), the Word (dabar) of Yahowah came to exist with (hayah ‘el) ‘Abram (‘abram - 82
father who uplifts) in the form of a visual and illuminating manifestation, which can be seen and experienced (machazeh - as a celebration of enlightening communication which can be beheld and visualized, as a window or aperture constructed for the purpose of flooding an area with light), saying (‘amar - promising and answering, claiming and avowing), ‘Do not be awed (yare’ ‘al - do not be frightened or intimidated) ‘Abram. I am (‘anokiy) your defender and shield (magen - your refuge, the one who covers and surrounds you, protecting you, shielding and delivering you). I am your reward (sakar - payment for passage, generous father and doorkeeper) who will make many increase and grow great (rabah - multiply and thrive, becoming greater than they are) in power and strength (ma’od - exceedingly abundant with regard to energy and force, capacity and ability).’
2But ‘Abram said (‘amar) to Yahowah, the father and head of the family (‘eden - the upright pillar of the tabernacle), ‘What am I to be given (mah nathan)? I walk (halak - journey) childless (‘aryry - without a son or daughter) and the heir to my household is ‘Eli’ezer (eli’ezer – God is my help) of Damascus (dammeseq – activity, moist with blood, oldest standing city in the world, city of the plateau, North East of Mt. Hermon).’
==================

I suppose the "Word of Yahowah" predated the Hindus.

This notion that we should always reject or believe the opposite of pagans is not convincing. Seems satan's means is more mixing mostly truth with deadly lie is more his tactic. Else it wouldn't be beguiling and would only fool a fool. Because of this I'm not ready to toss out John 1
Offline Walt  
#42 Posted : Thursday, December 8, 2011 4:24:33 AM(UTC)
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cgb2 wrote:
Re’shith - Genesis Chapter 15
1After (‘achar - following and pertaining to) these (‘el-leh) words (dabar - conversations and matters involving communication; messages and news), the Word (dabar) of Yahowah came to exist with (hayah ‘el) ‘Abram (‘abram - 82
father who uplifts) in the form of a visual and illuminating manifestation, which can be seen and experienced (machazeh - as a celebration of enlightening communication which can be beheld and visualized, as a window or aperture constructed for the purpose of flooding an area with light), saying (‘amar - promising and answering, claiming and avowing), ‘Do not be awed (yare’ ‘al - do not be frightened or intimidated) ‘Abram. I am (‘anokiy) your defender and shield (magen - your refuge, the one who covers and surrounds you, protecting you, shielding and delivering you). I am your reward (sakar - payment for passage, generous father and doorkeeper) who will make many increase and grow great (rabah - multiply and thrive, becoming greater than they are) in power and strength (ma’od - exceedingly abundant with regard to energy and force, capacity and ability).’
2But ‘Abram said (‘amar) to Yahowah, the father and head of the family (‘eden - the upright pillar of the tabernacle), ‘What am I to be given (mah nathan)? I walk (halak - journey) childless (‘aryry - without a son or daughter) and the heir to my household is ‘Eli’ezer (eli’ezer – God is my help) of Damascus (dammeseq – activity, moist with blood, oldest standing city in the world, city of the plateau, North East of Mt. Hermon).’
==================

I suppose the "Word of Yahowah" predated the Hindus.

This notion that we should always reject or believe the opposite of pagans is not convincing. Seems satan's means is more mixing mostly truth with deadly lie is more his tactic. Else it wouldn't be beguiling and would only fool a fool. Because of this I'm not ready to toss out John 1


Maybe the hindus "borrowed" this from Scripture and misapplied it?
Offline bigritchie  
#43 Posted : Friday, December 9, 2011 4:40:23 AM(UTC)
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Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
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In His Name wrote:
"For unto us a child (yeled - young boy) is born (yalad - is given birth and brought forth), unto us a Son (ben) is given (nathan yatan - eternally bestowed, entrusted and granted, delivered up, allowed to pay, and assigned to be afflicted)... His name (shem) will be called out, recited and read aloud (qara’ - proclaimed and summoned): Wonderful (pele’ - marvelously performing, separate, powerful, and extraordinary; miraculous and astounding non-verbal sign or portent pertaining to one’s attitude) Counselor (ya’ats - advisor, consultant, one who speaks and urges), Almighty (gibor - mighty man; from gabar, one who prevails and is great, confirming and giving strength) God (‘el), Eternal (‘ad - perpetual and continuous) Father (‘ab - head of family), Prince (sar - overseer and patron) of Redemption (shalowm - favor and salvation, the blessing of completeness, soundness, health, prosperity, tranquility, contentment, friendship, companionship, and relationship; from shalam, to pay recompense, to reward and to restore, to provide a means of return by redemption, restitution and making amends)." (Isaiah 9:6)
"...Almighty (gibor - mighty; from gabar, one who prevails and is great, confirming and giving strength) God ('el), Eternal ('ad - perpetual and continuous) Father ('ab - head of the family), Patron (sar - sponsor, overseer, and provider of, master with authority; the first in position and time, leader and ruler) of Redemption (shalowm - favor and salvation, the blessings of completeness, health, peace, tranquility, contentment, friendship, companionship, and relationship; a reward that brings prosperity and rest)." (Isaiah 9:6)
"Of the exceeding greatness and magnitude of (marbeh - the abundance of the multitude of offspring resulting from) His favor and restoration (shalowm - recompense and restitution, completeness and perfection, prosperity and peace, rest and reward, friendship and blessing) and of His supreme authority and power (misrah - dominion and rule, government and sovereignty; from sarah, meaning to have power, to persist and preserve) nothing ('ayin) will ever diminish throughout all of space-time (qets - they are infinite, and without limit or constraint, in space and in time)." (Isaiah 9:7)
"He shall rule upon the throne (kicce') of David (dawid - of love) and in the midst of ('al - on behalf of and for the sake of) His realm (mamlakah - kingdom and dominion), rendering it sure and prosperous (kuwn - establishing it upright, prepared, and firm; stable and secure; enduring and steadfast), restoring and renewing it (sa'ad - supporting, upholding, strengthening, and comforting; healing, refreshing, and sustaining) with verdicts that are just (mishpat - judgments and decisions which are proper and fitting), vindicating and justified (tsadaqah - making you appear innocent, righteous, and upright) from this time forth ('attah - now) and forevermore ('ad 'owlam - for continuous existence throughout all eternity, for an unlimited duration of time without end). The passion (qinah - intense feeling, energy, deep devotion, and enduring love) of Yahuweh (YHWH), of the assembled servants (tsaba' - Yahuweh's spiritual messengers (a.k.a. angels)), will accomplish, produce, and perform this work ('asah - will fashion and achieve this effect, endeavor, cause, labor, and offering) as man, as 'Yshayah'el (a compound of 'el, God, hayah, existing as, and 'ysh, man)!" (Yasha'yahu/Isaiah 9:7)




There may be hidden messages in Scripture, I don't know or care. What YHWH wants us to know is the straight text.



The Dead Sea Scrolls have proven beyond a doubt that Isaiah 9:6 does not say anything about Jesus being God. (The person who made this has a doctorate in hebrew and Paleo hebrew, he is not using translation aids)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXPnrhvxrZg



Offline bigritchie  
#44 Posted : Friday, December 9, 2011 4:53:12 AM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
Location: USA

cgb2 wrote:
Re’shith - Genesis Chapter 15
1After (‘achar - following and pertaining to) these (‘el-leh) words (dabar - conversations and matters involving communication; messages and news), the Word (dabar) of Yahowah came to exist with (hayah ‘el) ‘Abram (‘abram - 82
father who uplifts) in the form of a visual and illuminating manifestation, which can be seen and experienced (machazeh - as a celebration of enlightening communication which can be beheld and visualized, as a window or aperture constructed for the purpose of flooding an area with light), saying (‘amar - promising and answering, claiming and avowing), ‘Do not be awed (yare’ ‘al - do not be frightened or intimidated) ‘Abram. I am (‘anokiy) your defender and shield (magen - your refuge, the one who covers and surrounds you, protecting you, shielding and delivering you). I am your reward (sakar - payment for passage, generous father and doorkeeper) who will make many increase and grow great (rabah - multiply and thrive, becoming greater than they are) in power and strength (ma’od - exceedingly abundant with regard to energy and force, capacity and ability).’
2But ‘Abram said (‘amar) to Yahowah, the father and head of the family (‘eden - the upright pillar of the tabernacle), ‘What am I to be given (mah nathan)? I walk (halak - journey) childless (‘aryry - without a son or daughter) and the heir to my household is ‘Eli’ezer (eli’ezer – God is my help) of Damascus (dammeseq – activity, moist with blood, oldest standing city in the world, city of the plateau, North East of Mt. Hermon).’
==================

I suppose the "Word of Yahowah" predated the Hindus.

This notion that we should always reject or believe the opposite of pagans is not convincing. Seems satan's means is more mixing mostly truth with deadly lie is more his tactic. Else it wouldn't be beguiling and would only fool a fool. Because of this I'm not ready to toss out John 1


This text simple states the words of God came to Abraham in a vision.

This forum post I am making a visual manifestation of my words. Even if you have a dream and see this post in your dreams it does not mean you saw ME, nor does it make this post God.

This forum post is NOT me. And my words on this forum post do not make me God.

Now I would see merit in what you and Walt mentioned about the vedas possibly having some truth in them. (I have no doubt that ALL religions have some measure of the truth in them) I have no doubt that the "Instructions" (not the so called Torah of Moses that was edited by the scribes) existed long before Abraham.

(Most of John 1 is considered a textual addition anyways, most likely edited in to of course push the view that Jesus was God)
Offline James  
#45 Posted : Friday, December 9, 2011 8:19:57 AM(UTC)
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bigrichie wrote:
The Dead Sea Scrolls have proven beyond a doubt that Isaiah 9:6 does not say anything about Jesus being God. (The person who made this has a doctorate in hebrew and Paleo hebrew, he is not using translation aids)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXPnrhvxrZg


I’m going to weigh in just as a fact checker here. I don’t have the credentials that author of the video has, but I do have the materials at hand to check his facts.

First there are only two potential differences between the MT and DSS on Isaiah 9:6, neither of which substantially changes the text.

The first is debatable because 1QIsa and 4QIsa differ. 1QIsa has a different from of qara then 4QIsa and the MT, which agree. So the difference is rather it was wa qara or wa yqara, the difference being his name will be called, or his name is called.

1QIsa has Waw Qof Resh Alef

4QIsa and MT have Waw Yod Qof Resh Alef

The other difference is that 1QIsa has a Ha before Shalowm which would add a The between Prince and Redemption so Prince of the redemption. These are just word for word translations not complete, but it demonstrates the difference and how it doesn’t affect the message at all.

The author of the video points out two additional differences between the DSS and the MT, which if true would change what is being said. So the question then becomes are the differences he points out true or not.

Fist I open my DSS bible and check Isaiah 9:6, and it shows only the two difference I pointed out.

Next I opened logos pulled up Isiah 9:6 and check the DSS transcription to see if the two differences he mentioned are there. And again the only difference between the DSS and the MT are the two I mentioned, the two the author mentions are not there.

But transcriptions are manmade projects and subject to error, so thankfully the Great Isaiah scroll has been digitized and made available online, so I go to http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#9:5 and pull up the scroll, and again I see nothing other than the two differences pointed out by the DSS Bible, and the two I saw in the Logos Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls Database transcriptions. So it appears to me that two of the main points he brings up in his video were in fact made up.

But don’t take my word, look at the DSS yourself.

The two differences that the author points out which are not there are.
1. He states that in the MT El Gibowr is two words and that it is one in the DSS.
2. He states that in the MT Abi Ad is one word and that it is two words in the DSS.
So let’s examine the two claims. I have circled each in black the document but feel free to do to the above website and check for yourself, it’s in column 9 about 7 lines up from the bottom near the middle.

Now his second claim is clearly visable, yes the DSS does have Abi Ad as two words; the problem is with the second part of that claim. I open my Anderson Forbes Analyzed Text of the Hebrew Bible, in logos and it shows Abi Ad as two words, I open my Lexham Hebrew English Interlinear and it has two words, I open my ESB Reverse Interlinear and it has it as two words. So this claim is completely false the DSS and the MT are identical in this.

Now the first claim. He claims that El Gibowr is one word in the DSS and that the MT separated it into two words. If you look at the DSS you notice that there is a space between the Lamed in El and the Gimel in Gibowr, although it in not as big of a space as others, however if you examine more of the scroll you will notice that when a Lamed is in the middle of a word there is very little to no distance between it and the next letter, see red circles for examples.

Now look just below at the green circle and we have another example very similar to our case. Here we see al kisse, two words, but because they are linked and al is closely related to kesse in the text there is a smaller space than there would normally be, but still a space because they are still separate words. The space between the Lamed and the Kaf is nearly identical to the space between Lamed and Gimel.

So in my opinion the DSS Bible is correct in that there are only two differences between the DSS and the MT. The Qumran Scrolls transcriptions in logos appear to me after examining the actual scan of the scroll to be perfectly in sync.

So to me the author of the video seems to be willing to twist the facts, and indeed make them up to fit his position.


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Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline James  
#46 Posted : Friday, December 9, 2011 9:49:42 AM(UTC)
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Biritchie, I have a question. I have reread this thread three times now, and I am not entirely clear on what your position is. Could you please tell me? And I mean this in all seriousness, i am not trying to be mocking or anything. The way i see it with Yahowsha there are three possibilities

1. The Christian belief, that he was Wholey God.
2. The view I think most here hold, he was a diminished manifestation of Yahowah, meaning qowdesh a part that is separated from the whole and set apart.
3. He was just a man.

I'm certain you don't agree with 1, but I'm not sure if you agree with 2 or 3, or if you have a fourth idea that I haven't thought of.

Thanks.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline shalom82  
#47 Posted : Friday, December 9, 2011 10:05:08 AM(UTC)
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And after James' skillful technical criticism I would like to get back to this idea of the vedas.

The problem with that conclusion is that your idea of "the Word" is not how the Yahudim conceptualized this "Word" that appeared on a cursory recounting at least 2 more times (to Samuel and YirmeYahu). The "memra" (as per the the aramaic targums) was viewed to be a divine manifestation in its own right. You can say that Yahochanan didn't write John 1.1 or whatever else you want....but the issue comes down to this....whether by fluke or by design or because it is the truth....Yahonachan 1 is thoroughly and consistently in line with the Yahudi viewpoints and tenets. (at least the viewpoints contemporary with the text of Yahonachan) We do not need to grasp at such absurdities (such as plagiarism of the vedas)...I am sorry.....and in light of the actual Torah texts themselves and the later commentaries on those texts...your forum posting analogy is anemic and vapid....Read the targums... and read the literature of the day before and after Yahonachan was written....Yahonachan 1 is not a product of hindu veddas. It is a solid and undeniable product of the prevailing Yahudi thought on this very specific issue of the word.....as found in Torah and in contemporary Torah exegesis

Gen 1:3: "And the Memra of (YHWH) said Let there be light and there was Light by his Memra." (and the rest of the account of creation on down from light is attributed to the Memra)
Gen 3:8 ff: "And they heard the voice of the Memra of (YHWH)... . And the Memra of (YHWH) called out to the Man."
Gen 18:1: "And was revealed to him the Memra of (YHWH)."
Gen 19:24 "And the Memra of (YHWH) rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah."

Gen 15:1, "And it was after these things that the Word of God appeared to Abraham"......15.6: "Abraham believed in God and he reckoned it for him as righteousness," Targum version: "Abraham believed the Memra of God...."

Exod 3:12-14 :
"I, My Memra, will be with you." (Palestinian Targum/MS Neofiti)
"And he said: Because my Memra will be for your support."
"And the Memra of (YHWH) said to Moses: He who said to the world from the beginning, Be there,' and it was there, and who is to say to it 'Be there,' and it will be there; and he said, Thus shall you say to the Israelites, He has sent me to you." (place this Targumic commentary in the context of the afore mentioned Gen/Ber 1:3)



Exod 17:21 : "And the Memra of (YHWH) was leading them during the day in a pillar of cloud."
Deut 32:39: "When the Memra of (YHWH) shall be revealed to redeem his people."


This is what Philo had to say:

"To His Word, His chief messenger, highest in age and honour, the Father of all has given the special prerogative, to stand on the border and separate the creature from the Creator. This same Word both pleads with the immortal as suppliant for afflicted mortality and acts as ambassador of the ruler to the subject. He glories in this prerogative and proudly describes it in these words "and I stood between (YHWH) and you" (Deut. v. 5), that is neither uncreated by God, nor created as you, but midway between the two extremes, a surety to both sides."

"For this reason, whereas the voice of mortals is judged by hearing, the sacred oracles intimate that the words of God (TOUS του θεού λόγους) are seen as light is seen, for we are told that all of the people saw the Voice (Ex. 20:18), not that they heard it; for what was happening was not an impact of air made by the organs of mouth and tongue, but the radiating splendour of virtue indistinguishable from a fountain of reason. . . . But the voice of God which is not that of verbs and names yet seen by the eye of the soul, he (Moses) rightly introduces as 'visible.'"

Now we have here the inclusion of various sources. We have the oriental semitic (backwoods...if you will) aramaic Targums and we have the Alexandrian cosmpolitan urban Greek exegesis of Philo. Bringing the evidences from the broadly ranging sources we have what I think we can safely conclude to be a widely held if not universal concept. That the Word- Dabar/Memra/Logos is YHWH but yet something set apart from Him....a manifestation tasked with the role of the worker, the abassador, and the mediator. There is AMPLE material to suggest that this a a viewpoint that is an inexorable part of the Hebrew tradition.

My point in all this is not so much to say this proves that יהושע is a manifestation of YHWH or even that He is the Messiah. So you should not take it as such. However, I believe that the above evidence and the conclusions that naturally follow from the evidence is that the claim that Yahonachan 1 is a product of the hindu vedas is the product of poor investigation and scholarship at best...and more likely is product of an agenda that makes no qualms about embracing dishonesty.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline bigritchie  
#48 Posted : Friday, December 9, 2011 11:04:08 AM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
Location: USA

James wrote:
Biritchie, I have a question. I have reread this thread three times now, and I am not entirely clear on what your position is. Could you please tell me? And I mean this in all seriousness, i am not trying to be mocking or anything. The way i see it with Yahowsha there are three possibilities

1. The Christian belief, that he was Wholey God.
2. The view I think most here hold, he was a diminished manifestation of Yahowah, meaning qowdesh a part that is separated from the whole and set apart.
3. He was just a man.

I'm certain you don't agree with 1, but I'm not sure if you agree with 2 or 3, or if you have a fourth idea that I haven't thought of.

Thanks.


I do not believe that Jesus is God based upon the Torah and Jesus own words. (I also believe based upon the evidence things like the so called "virgin birth" were nonsense)

Now whether Jesus was a 100% man who became the Messiah, or whether he was the literal son of God who incarnated upon earth as fully human is more the debate to me.

I would say my personal leaning (And I am certainly not militant about this, just my personal opinion) is that Jesus may have very well been a being who incarnated upon earth as the righteous teacher who taught the righteous path and the true Torah, and taught that animal sacrifice and various other things were done by the lying pen of the scribes.

I would simply encourage people to direct their worship towards the Creator and not Jesus (as Jesus himself told his followers and made clear)



Offline bigritchie  
#49 Posted : Friday, December 9, 2011 11:15:05 AM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
Location: USA

shalom82 wrote:
And after James' skillful technical criticism I would like to get back to this idea of the vedas.

The problem with that conclusion is that your idea of "the Word" is not how the Yahudim conceptualized this "Word" that appeared on a cursory recounting at least 2 more times (to Samuel and YirmeYahu). The "memra" (as per the the aramaic targums) was viewed to be a divine manifestation in its own right. You can say that Yahochanan didn't write John 1.1 or whatever else you want....but the issue comes down to this....whether by fluke or by design or because it is the truth....Yahonachan 1 is thoroughly and consistently in line with the Yahudi viewpoints and tenets. (at least the viewpoints contemporary with the text of Yahonachan) We do not need to grasp at such absurdities (such as plagiarism of the vedas)...I am sorry.....and in light of the actual Torah texts themselves and the later commentaries on those texts...your forum posting analogy is anemic and vapid....Read the targums... and read the literature of the day before and after Yahonachan was written....Yahonachan 1 is not a product of hindu veddas. It is a solid and undeniable product of the prevailing Yahudi thought on this very specific issue of the word.....as found in Torah and in contemporary Torah exegesis

Gen 1:3: "And the Memra of (YHWH) said Let there be light and there was Light by his Memra." (and the rest of the account of creation on down from light is attributed to the Memra)
Gen 3:8 ff: "And they heard the voice of the Memra of (YHWH)... . And the Memra of (YHWH) called out to the Man."
Gen 18:1: "And was revealed to him the Memra of (YHWH)."
Gen 19:24 "And the Memra of (YHWH) rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah."

Gen 15:1, "And it was after these things that the Word of God appeared to Abraham"......15.6: "Abraham believed in God and he reckoned it for him as righteousness," Targum version: "Abraham believed the Memra of God...."

Exod 3:12-14 :
"I, My Memra, will be with you." (Palestinian Targum/MS Neofiti)
"And he said: Because my Memra will be for your support."
"And the Memra of (YHWH) said to Moses: He who said to the world from the beginning, Be there,' and it was there, and who is to say to it 'Be there,' and it will be there; and he said, Thus shall you say to the Israelites, He has sent me to you." (place this Targumic commentary in the context of the afore mentioned Gen/Ber 1:3)



Exod 17:21 : "And the Memra of (YHWH) was leading them during the day in a pillar of cloud."
Deut 32:39: "When the Memra of (YHWH) shall be revealed to redeem his people."


This is what Philo had to say:

"To His Word, His chief messenger, highest in age and honour, the Father of all has given the special prerogative, to stand on the border and separate the creature from the Creator. This same Word both pleads with the immortal as suppliant for afflicted mortality and acts as ambassador of the ruler to the subject. He glories in this prerogative and proudly describes it in these words "and I stood between (YHWH) and you" (Deut. v. 5), that is neither uncreated by God, nor created as you, but midway between the two extremes, a surety to both sides."

"For this reason, whereas the voice of mortals is judged by hearing, the sacred oracles intimate that the words of God (TOUS του θεού λόγους) are seen as light is seen, for we are told that all of the people saw the Voice (Ex. 20:18), not that they heard it; for what was happening was not an impact of air made by the organs of mouth and tongue, but the radiating splendour of virtue indistinguishable from a fountain of reason. . . . But the voice of God which is not that of verbs and names yet seen by the eye of the soul, he (Moses) rightly introduces as 'visible.'"

Now we have here the inclusion of various sources. We have the oriental semitic (backwoods...if you will) aramaic Targums and we have the Alexandrian cosmpolitan urban Greek exegesis of Philo. Bringing the evidences from the broadly ranging sources we have what I think we can safely conclude to be a widely held if not universal concept. That the Word- Dabar/Memra/Logos is YHWH but yet something set apart from Him....a manifestation tasked with the role of the worker, the abassador, and the mediator. There is AMPLE material to suggest that this a a viewpoint that is an inexorable part of the Hebrew tradition.

My point in all this is not so much to say this proves that יהושע is a manifestation of YHWH or even that He is the Messiah. So you should not take it as such. However, I believe that the above evidence and the conclusions that naturally follow from the evidence is that the claim that Yahonachan 1 is a product of the hindu vedas is the product of poor investigation and scholarship at best...and more likely is product of an agenda that makes no qualms about embracing dishonesty.



The fact of the matter is that the Hindu Vedas were written thousands of years before John. No amount of speaking or writing in hebronics will change that.

Offline shalom82  
#50 Posted : Friday, December 9, 2011 11:39:34 AM(UTC)
shalom82
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Your response means absolutely nothing. That is like saying human beings worshipped false gods before they worshipped YHWH....so YHWH is just another false god....or that 2 thousand years before the Israelis built a temple or for that matter a tabernacle to YHWH great cultures like those in the Indus river valley and for that matter Egypt already were building monumental temples to their gods...so the tabernacle and the temple in Jerusalem were again just copies of a previous idea (the notion of having a physical center of worship and communion for a specific god or a pantheon of gods). I am sure there were other religions that had dietary restrictions before the Torah ordinances....so yup...that is just a pagan fake too....others also had circumcision....yup...circumcision is pagan.....how about a priestly dress code....yup....another copy of the pagans. And we can go on and on....you want to talk about perhaps Gilgamesh and the serpent and the flood too while we are at it? Let's go on BR...until there is nothing left. You can impugn Yahonachan all you want....but you are attacking much more than that single testimony. And if the shoe fits I will use "hebronics" all day long.....so what now....you would pick on me for presenting counter evidence in the original language? I think somewhere along the line you forgot that that is the raison d'etre of this community.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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