logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline MarkJ  
#1 Posted : Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:17:33 AM(UTC)
MarkJ
Joined: 3/24/2011(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Italy

Hello all, I am new to the forum. I have been having conversations with a Muslim for the past few months through email. We met while debating our own points of religion on a youtube post. Others there were not being peaceful or respectful (unfortunately from both sides), and we decided to converse privately on the matter. As most of us know, Muslims believe that Yahushua (They call Him Isa and Jesus, errantly) was only a Prophet, and disbelieve in His divinity and the fact that He is the sacrifice for our sins.
I finally got him to start reading the Bible, with the exception of anything Paul wrote (they don't believe him either). And he shows me the following from the Gospel of Luke 10:

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

And added that since Yahushua said the above about getting in to Heaven, that's all he would need to do. That he doesn't have to recognize Yahushua as the Son of Yahuweh, or the fact that He died for our sins; as Yahushua didn't say he would have to do that.

Now, speaking of my Muslim friend's soul.... is it okay to let him be satisfied with that conclusion? If not, what's the best way to show Muslims the truth of Yahushua's divinity and sacrifice for us?
Offline Daniel  
#2 Posted : Thursday, March 24, 2011 8:37:23 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

MarkJ wrote:
I finally got him to start reading the Bible

Sometimes, that is all they need. The problem is the christians start them out in the Apostolic Narratives of the Life of the Messiah (commonly called the gospels), and not in the Tanahk. Recommendation: Start at the beginning of the book.

MarkJ wrote:
, with the exception of anything Paul wrote (they don't believe him either).


That is the standard muslim method. I'm going to have to agree with them, on that point. Leave Mr. Oftarsus out of the discussion.

MarkJ wrote:
And he shows me the following from the Gospel of Luke 10:

Luke wrote:
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”


And added that since Yahushua said the above about getting in to Heaven, that's all he would need to do. That he doesn't have to recognize Yahushua as the Son of Yahuweh, or the fact that He died for our sins; as Yahushua didn't say he would have to do that


Busted! Unless he is a really fast reader, you started him out in the "New Testament"! ;-)

Here is the line of reasoning I would take:

That answer was and is still accurate. Pretty simple, really: "Shema Yisrael" + "Golden Rule" + "Observe Torah" = Eternal Life. (Christians always like to ignore the "Observe Torah", mainly because the think that Paul said they didn't have to.)

At the time this conversation took place, the temple was being used for the blood sacrifices to atone for sins. The blood sacrifice is part of keeping Torah. When the curtain was ripped that separated the "Holy of Holies" from the rest of the world at the moment of the death of the Messiah's physical body, the sacrifices performed by the priests were immediately de-legitimized.

Thankfully, Yahushua was the the perfect, prophesied sacrifice, fulfilling the Torah's requirement for atonement by blood. Apparently the curtain/veil was stitched up or replaced and the sacrifices were resumed by the priests for about 40 years, until the destruction of the temple in the 70's. At that point no one could "Keep Torah", because the temple was destroyed and the priests were killed or ran away.

The only way you could follow the formula ("Shema Yisrael" + "Golden Rule" + "Observe Torah") was to ask YHWH to accept Yahushua's sacrifice as payment for the debt of sin that you had racked up. This still fits in perfectly with what is written in the Torah, Prophets and Psalms.

Muslims still conduct animal sacrifices every year during Ramadan at Mecca. They have to continually repeat the ritual because nowhere in Muslim theology is there the idea of a one-time-all-atoning perfect sacrifice like there is with Yahushua/Isa/Jesus.

If the man in Luke 10:25 came up to Yahushua after the resurrection and asked the same question, Yahushua could have given the same answer! I suspect that He might have gone through Isaiah 53 with the guy and asked "Does the person mentioned by Isaiah sound like anyone you might know...? Like, maybe, someone in this room...?" Once he/you/we realize that He was the perfect blood sacrifice, it all falls into place nicely.

Encourage this guy to read "The Bible", starting on page one, just like any other book you would read. When he gets to Isaiah, he is likely to know enough about "Isa/Jesus" to put it all together. Lots of people who were followers of Muhammad abandon that belief system just by reading the real account of how things happened. (BTW: For the purposes of this discussion with this guy, just about any copy of "The Bible" will do.)
---
This is just how I think I would talk to the guy. The answer is not exhaustive, but is a succinct attempt at cross-cultural communication.
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline James  
#3 Posted : Thursday, March 24, 2011 8:46:49 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
I would add a big DITTO to Daniel's suggestion. If you don't start from the beginning, you don't have the proper perspective from which to understand anything Yahushua said or did.

Also just a quick reply to him.
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength" Luke
"If ye love me, my commands keep" John
"he who is having my commands, and is keeping them, that one it is who is loving me" John
"If any one may love me, my word he will keep, and my Father will love him, and unto him we will come, and abode with him we will make; he who is not loving me, my words doth not keep; and the word that ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me." John

So quit a simple answer is He told us what we would do if we love Him. So if you are not doing what He asked you are not Loving Him.

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline MarkJ  
#4 Posted : Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:39:27 PM(UTC)
MarkJ
Joined: 3/24/2011(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Italy

Yea, most of his questions were about Yahushua as that's what he sees as the main difference between Islam and the truth. So that's where I pointed him. He replied back before I checked the message board again and said that he still wanted to find out if Yahushua is the Son of God and/or if He died for our sins. So after I read your helpful replies, I promptly provided Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 (along with some narrative to the side for further explanation) plus those great guiding verses James reminded me, and am awaiting his response to it. It was quite a long read, so it'll probably be tmrw before I hear back from him. Much thanks for your help. The more we can save, the greater Heaven will be!
Offline shalom82  
#5 Posted : Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:56:07 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Shalom Mark and welcome to the forum,
I would just like to bring up a few points. How does your muslim friend love YHWH with all his heart, soul and strength? Does he do so according to the canonical texts of Islam? (including the Quran and the aHadith (that make up the Sunnah)). Does he love YHWH according to his own understanding? What Yahushua and the teacher of the law are talking about is shorthand for Torah. To Love YHWH with all your heart, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself is a summation of the Torah at large and also is a summation of the Asaret HaDebarim (the 10 words). How on earth does your Muslim friend love YHWH if he is truly a muslim? Contrary to what he may or may not believe YHWH and allah are not the same God and if he worships allah then he does not love or revere YHWH with even a fraction of his heart, soul, or strength. He is nothing more than a polytheist with an emptied out pantheon pared of all of its idols....excepting the moon (Sin). The truth is that islam remains a polytheistic religion. Allah remains as a competing pantheon rolled up into one. He is everywhere and he is in everything hence he is nowhere...because he cannot be the creator and the created...the perfect and the perverted. This is no different than iupiter or odin. It is a religion of wood nymphs and water sprites transcendent of the laws of the universe...transcendent in a way that ignores such laws into oblivion or outright denies a rational and masterful design. Allah is at this time doing this at this time doing that with no unfolding purpose or unifying master plot...and in this way this false god is set against himself at every moment of every day. The capricious and power for its own sake nature of allah...doing things simply because he will rather than because he must is polytheism. I contend and I think most if not all would agree that YHWH due to His very nature has no choice but to create and to commune and love and experience. allah is sufficient...none the worse if he did not choose to create....unmoved and unchanged...static and dead. Muslims are so proud of this assertion believing that it makes their theology superior when in fact it is their god that they are distinguishing from YHWH....however even as they haughtily tout their self sufficient, completely transcendent and unbound and capricious god and think themselves so superior to the polytheist and in fact use the word polytheist as a perjorative they are only technically monotheists....a sort of cheap, worthless monotheism...that exists only as a technicality. Their god and their outlook remains firmly and thoroughly polytheistic.
This is not anything that is hidden away under lock and key. The slightest bit of investigation will confirm that allah is sin. This is the same god whose name was lent to the mountain and wilderness of Sinai and it was the same god that the Midyanites were worshipping in the time if Gidyon (as evidenced by the ornamental crescents that Gidyon and his men took from the necks of the vanquished Midyanites camels. Let us concede for one second that it was intended that allah be associated with YHWH...or that allah is assumed to be YHWH (which I don't in any reality concede or assume). But for the time being let's just take it at face value that allah simply is a word for god and that christians, jews, and muslims all worship YHWH (even if they don't know or don't care to know or don't care to use His name). Muslims just as christians are guilty of gross and glaring sin in the eyes of YHWH. The festivals and holy days and the attendent rites of the muslims are just as much pagan as christmas and easter are on the Christian side. YHWH hates such polution and says so explicitly in Debarim/Deut 12:29-32. The quran is a mishmash of Talmud, general middle eastern polytheism specifically manifested in the Arabic rite, with original absurdidies like Alexander the Great being a muslim and extra terrestrial cities thrown in for good measure. Simply stated the canonical texts of islam are not Torah and only resemble it to the degree in which it has co-opted the talmud which itself is a in transgression of the Torah because it adds to the Torah like nobody's business. The texts of Islam are both guilty of taking away and adding to Torah and so in no way can they confirm or be confirmed by the Tanakh. The messages in scriptures of YHWH and the islamic scriptures don't have the same message or the same purpose and what is both recounted and foretold in the Tanakh is either ignored, perverted or contradicted. There is no possible way in which the quran or the prophet of the quran fulfill the message or purpose of the Tanakh. Furthermore, let us again accept that allah is YHWH. The petty, capricious, tyrannical, insecure,impotent, and immoral control freak is nothing like the God of the Tanakh. It would be like saying that you were a big fan of Wilt Chamberlain and then explaining to an ignorant audience that this man you admired so much was a 5'2'' elderly Chinese man renowned for his kung fu skills. So my point is either way you slice it allah is not YHWH. So a muslim cannot love YHWH. THe muslim either does not know YHWH or has made a conscious choice to set himself against the One. The muslim does not keep YHWH's commandments though some of them may be the same or similar to ones set out in the Torah. That is true of any religion. A hindu by chance may observe or practice something that is in Torah....but he does not do it in obedience to YHWH. It is the same with Islam. So before you muslim friend smuggly rides off in complacent self satisfaction I would bring up these glaring facts. He is nowhere close to even accomplishing what he asserts is all that is necessary. Tell him to read the Tanakh starting from Bereshith bara Elohim et haShamayim w'et haEretz. Tell him to renounce allah, muhammad, the canon of islam and the "poligious" institution of islam as a whole and proclaim that his God is YHWH and observe and do the ordinances of Torah and love and cherish the Tanakh which contains the word of his God and study and devote himself to understanding and communing with his Elohim, YHWH. Before he does these things...anything that he brings up in this vein is just a stick that he is trying to use to beat YHWH over the head with but in actuality he is happily beating himself over the head with the stick even as he says, "I got you now!"
As an aside....is he comfortable being a hypocrite by his own religion's standards...if he is indeed a "peaceful" muslim?
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline tagim  
#6 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 3:28:34 AM(UTC)
tagim
Joined: 9/30/2010(UTC)
Posts: 218
Man
Location: westen new york

Thanks: 3 times
The mind of Shalom82, so beautifully said.
Offline Daniel  
#7 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 3:34:18 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

shalom82 wrote:
I would just like to bring up a few points. How does your muslim friend love YHWH with all his heart, soul and strength?


He doesn't! This guy still believes in Allah.

shalom82 wrote:
Tell him to renounce allah, muhammad, the canon of islam and the "poligious" institution of islam as a whole ...


At this point in the conversation, that ain't gonna work. Mark has a long way to go with this guy before he gets to say that.

For someone to "change their perspective", most often, they first have to be made to feel uncomfortable with their current view of ultimate reality. It seems that Mark's friend is a "reader", therefore I suggest that he read through "The Bible" (starting from the front!). This almost always turns out to be the most effective path for getting a follower of Muhammad to "change their perspective".

Just telling them that "you guys are all wrong" doesn't work very well. There is a much better chance of success if he comes back to Mark (after completing his reading assignment) and says "Hey, I like this document/god/prescription-for-living better than what I was taught. Tell me more..."

PS: Shalom82, would it kill you to put a blank line between your paragraphs?


Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline shalom82  
#8 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 7:19:47 AM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Well Dan, as to your first comment...I think that became the apparent and overarching point of my response to Mark....is your last name Dierdorf perhaps...hahahaha

And as to the second comment perhaps I should have made my writing more clear but what I was getting at was he is not even anywhere close to approaching what is outlined in the passage from Luke that was cited. I didn't expect Mark to go to his muslim friend and copy and paste what I have written here. He knows more about the tenor of the conversation and how frank or gentle he either can or must be. However he frames the issue and however gentle and pc he might be at some point which Mark more than likely knows better than any of us there is going to have to be a point where these very very startling and unsettling and perhaps dialogue breaking issues come up. I don't know how or when they should be said to one particular person....but honey doesn't help you swallow a sword after the first 3 inches. As I said....I didn't expect that Mark would say exactly what I said....bing bang boom right now right here this is the ultimatum.

Furthermore, the comment of the muslim comes off as rather disingenuous....as I said....using it as a stick...and it seems disingenous because....going back to the original idea.....he is nowhere close to even loving YHWH with all of his heart, soul and strength so long as he proclaims the name of allah and attends the idol's set apart days and observes and does the ordinances and precepts of allah....and I believe this because I think the muslim is smart enough to understand that there are vast differences in the practice, behavior and outlook of the 2 worldviews/paradigms (Hebraist and Islamist) to know deep down that their texts must have deep intrinsic and inherent differences that betray the truth that these outlooks cannot confirm or fulfill or complement each other. If I am wrong I apologize but I took the information I had and the whole thing just struck me as some sort of AHA!!! GOTCHA!!!! rather than sincerity. I hope my post is still useful and that it at least holds some worth or merit to the community.


As for spaces, I don't suppose it would kill me. I understand that I can put spaces between my paragraphs and I will try....though please forgive me if I forget....but please remember...what you write before you post and after you post look very different in their respective forms. What looks like plenty of space and break between paragraphs in the text box looks like one continuous run on paragraph in the post. So if I do forget please forgive me...old habits die hard.

















YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline MarkJ  
#9 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2011 3:22:09 PM(UTC)
MarkJ
Joined: 3/24/2011(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Italy

haha, no worries guys. I know Shalom82 is correct in his statements. And believe me, I wouldn't start bringing those points up yet. In his mind, he thinks allah and Yahuweh to be the same.... He views the breaking point of the conversation as Yahushua dying for our sins, as that is not allowed in Islam. He hasn't responded to my last reply yet, it usually takes a few days. He's from the Netherlands and has to translate it all to Dutch. Plus he's probably having a good tough time acknowledging and accepting my last message. I will keep all your feedback in mind for my future conversations, though. And I'll post any success or setbacks I come to with this.
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.