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Offline James  
#1 Posted : Monday, January 24, 2011 8:46:22 AM(UTC)
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I know there was a discussion about this before, but I can't seem to find it, so I am going to start a new thread for it.

I know there are several here who do not believe that circumcision is necessary for gentiles, while others believe it is completely necessary, and yet others who would say it is desired but not necessary. I for one am of the opinion that it necessary, and that we should not only be circumcised, but also that we should circumcise or sons, and I think this is a discussion that many here would enjoy, so I thought I would start it out.

I figure the best place to start is with a Torah quote. While reading through the latest revision of YY I found a verse that Yada points out which, in my opinion, makes it clear that we are to be circumcised. Exodus 12:48, speaking of Passover says:

And indeed when (wa ky) a guest who is living (guwr) with you (‘eth), and the visitor who is from a different place and culture (ger – a new arrival on a voyage of discovery who has walked away from his own nation and family) celebrates (‘asah – performs and benefits from) Pesach / Passover (Pesach) to approach (la – to reach) Yahowah (YaHoWaH), every (kol) male (zakar – man and boy for the purpose of remembering) must be circumcised (muwl) for him to reach this goal (la-w), and for him to approach and present himself (qarab – for him to draw near and be present). And (wa) then, at that time (‘az), he may approach (qarab – draw near) so that (la) he may celebrate and do this (‘asah – perform and profit from this). And then (wa) he shall be (hayah – he shall come to exist) considered the same as (ka – even identical to) a native-born member of the family, grafted and rooted into (‘ezrah – a person who springs from the natural tree with all rights of citizenship [becoming as Yisra’el and Yahuwdym in]) the (ha) the land (‘erets – realm). But (wa) anyone (kol) who is uncircumcised (‘arel) he shall not (lo’) partake in it or be nourished by it (‘akal ba-y). ’

New International Version (©1984)
"An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the LORD's Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat of it.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"If there are foreigners living among you who want to celebrate the LORD's Passover, let all their males be circumcised. Only then may they celebrate the Passover with you like any native-born Israelite. But no uncircumcised male may ever eat the Passover meal.

English Standard Version (©2001)
If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Foreigners may want to celebrate the LORD's Passover. First, every male in the household must be circumcised. Then they may celebrate the Passover like native-born Israelites. But no uncircumcised males may ever eat the Passover meal.

King James Bible
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

American King James Version
And when a stranger shall sojourn with you, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

American Standard Version
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to Jehovah, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: but no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Bible in Basic English
And if a man from another country is living with you, and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And if any stranger be willing to dwell among you, and to keep the Phase of the Lord, all his males shall first be circumcised, and then shall he celebrate it according to the manner: and he shall be as he that is born in the land: but if any man be uncircumcised, he shall not eat thereof.

Darby Bible Translation
And when a sojourner sojourneth with thee, and would hold the passover to Jehovah, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and hold it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land; but no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

English Revised Version
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: but no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Webster's Bible Translation
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

World English Bible
When a stranger shall live as a foreigner with you, and will keep the Passover to Yahweh, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one who is born in the land: but no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

Young's Literal Translation
And when a sojourner sojourneth with thee, and hath made a passover to Jehovah, every male of his is to be circumcised, and then he doth come near to keep it, and he hath been as a native of the land, but any uncircumcised one doth not eat of it;

Also the next verse makes it clear that the Torah is for both gentile and Yahudi, one law. That pretty much destroys, dispensation-ism, dual covenant, etc.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline tagim  
#2 Posted : Monday, January 24, 2011 9:33:52 AM(UTC)
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I have often though about the 75-90 year-old infirm male - or for that matter, adult, becoming or being torah observant and uncircumcised - whether he is forever forbidden to partake. Does that one then (heaven forbid) borrow what he needs from Paul?
Offline VinceB.  
#3 Posted : Monday, January 24, 2011 10:11:01 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for starting the thread James.

Clearly if one doesn't listen to what Sha'uwl says, and listens to what God says (not adding to it or taking away from it) there's not a single person who wants a relationship with Yahowah who'd not schedule a clinic visit at their earliest convenience...

My 70+ year old dad won't go for it - can't get his mind away from old school RCC brainwashing in Pauline Doctrine long enough to get him to clearly see the obvious: that we're to obey God and not man, including not obeying Paul of Tarsus.
HWHY
Offline Richard  
#4 Posted : Monday, January 24, 2011 10:40:36 AM(UTC)
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Scenario: old man, young man, it doesn't matter. No health insurance. No income or, at least, no free resources. Is he doomed to be rejected by Yahuwah just because he is poor? Is he expected to find some quack with an X-acto knife and chloroform who will circumcise him for free?

"Hey, mom, didn't Uncle Neerdowell go to medical school way back when?"

"Well, yes, Grasstoker, he did, but they tossed him out for mutilating corpses."

"Yeah, uh, you got his number, mom? I think I might be rejected by God if I don't get this thing trimmed a bit ..."

Okay, so that's pushing it, but my point is that, while I too agree that we should be circumcised, and I am, what is the poor man to think? What is to be done for those who cannot afford today's inflated medical costs? Will they really be damned?

This is best addressed to our Father, but I would still like to hear what the rest of you think.

Way to go, James. This could get really interesting!

Richard
Offline Matthew  
#5 Posted : Monday, January 24, 2011 12:57:44 PM(UTC)
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flintface wrote:
Scenario: old man, young man, it doesn't matter. No health insurance. No income or, at least, no free resources. Is he doomed to be rejected by Yahuwah just because he is poor? Is he expected to find some quack with an X-acto knife and chloroform who will circumcise him for free?

"Hey, mom, didn't Uncle Neerdowell go to medical school way back when?"

"Well, yes, Grasstoker, he did, but they tossed him out for mutilating corpses."

"Yeah, uh, you got his number, mom? I think I might be rejected by God if I don't get this thing trimmed a bit ..."

Okay, so that's pushing it, but my point is that, while I too agree that we should be circumcised, and I am, what is the poor man to think? What is to be done for those who cannot afford today's inflated medical costs? Will they really be damned?

This is best addressed to our Father, but I would still like to hear what the rest of you think.

Way to go, James. This could get really interesting!

Richard


Richard, you're right to address the person's heart attitude.

If we use David as an example we find he broke:

1) Commandment 10: David coveted (lusted after) Uriah's wife
2) Commandment 7: committed adultery with her
3) Commandment 9: tried to cover up his sin, after realising Bathsheba was pregnant, by bringing Uriah home from war so that he could return to his wife for some TLC
4) Commandment 6: murdered Uriah by purposefully sending him to the front line of war to die, so that he could have Bathsheba as his wife alongside his 7 other wives and many concubines
5) Commandment 2: well, sort of Commandment 2 by going out to have his army counted.

But then we read God saying to Solomon in 2 Chronicles 7:12-18 that He wants him to "walk before Me as David your father walked, doing according to all that I have commanded you and keeping My statutes and My rules." So we have a predicament here. David did not set a brilliant example when it came to literal obedience, he broke 5 of the Commandments while still in a relationship with Yahweh.

But then by reading 2 Chronicles 7:19-20 we find that to separate oneself from God one has to literally abandon Him, which we know David did not do. It says:

1) do not turn aside
2) do not forsake My statutes
3) do not forsake My commandments
4) do not serve other gods
5) do not worship other gods.

So what does it really mean to keep Torah if we are going to follow David's example?

Anyway...

A few things we need to ask ourselves:

1) Women?
2) What about those beheaded during Tribulation for the One who died on the wooden apparatus? If they are not circumcised before their beheading are they not saved? What if they still have not yet read Questioning Paul, of all books, and still hold Paul dear to them, but still choose to be beheaded for the Messiah (or Jesus, as many will probably know Him by) rather than bow to the Beast?
3) Are we today keeping the feast of Passover literally correct?
4) Does circumcision to another god, like Allah, count if one converted from Islam to following Yahweh?
5) What are the greatest Commandments, are we keeping them?
Offline cgb2  
#6 Posted : Monday, January 24, 2011 2:39:24 PM(UTC)
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Even in Acts it seemed first some stop gap biggies, until they could hear Moses:

Act 15:19 “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the gentiles who are turning to Elohim,
Act 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of idols, and from whoring, and from what is strangled, and from blood.1 Footnote: 1See v.29.
Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”
Offline york mister  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:11:55 AM(UTC)
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I'd love to get a clear answer on this one - I'm not c'd and have legs crossed reading this thread ;-)..... just wondering:

What if you were circumcised but not according to the letter of the Torah (i.e by a doctor, not a priest, not on the 8th day etc etc)) - then is that medical circumcision really enough?
Is there anyone who was not 'conveniently' circumcised when a child who believes we should be done?

Where do we draw the line between observance and doing - are we all going to bring in a live with the lamb this Pesach and kill it on premises (health and safety might get busy)...





Offline Noel  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:51:55 AM(UTC)
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There is a danger here that we may miss the point, I think.

1)Yes, the 'you have to be circumcised' view tends to come from people who (conveniently) already have been when they can't even remember it
2) It was most probably done on the wrong day by the wrong person, and therefore, probably needs to be done again, although I'm not quite sure which bit goes next.
3) If you are going to do it, then it has to be by your own choice, and not done before you began your relationship with Yah..........(otherwise it is no different than baptizing babies years before they decide (if ever they do) to start a relationship with Yah.
4) We are not, as I understand it, going to have the same bodies when we meet him, any more than Yahushua did after he was glorified.
5) There are lots of bits of the body which won't fit into a heavenly perspective, not just the foreskin. A gut half full of pooh for a start. (You call it something else in the USA, I believe)
6) If, (and I doubt) some are told at the gate to the heavenly tabernacle...."sorry, dude, you can't come in with that thing on", then you should ask Yahushua to please do it for you then and there if it is the one thing which would keep you out of an eternal fellowship with him.

n
Offline Noel  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 2:05:12 AM(UTC)
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Oh yeah, one other thing.

Don't even THINK of getting your passover lamb from Wal-mart. You don't know whether it is a male or a female, nor do you know that it is unblemished. If you can't get an unblemished male lamb and live with it in the house for a few days (mind that carpet), then you are certainly falling short on that one too. And then there is the question of why you have not physically gone and torn down and burned or destroyed all the statues of the virgin Mary or crucifixes you have on most street corners in the USA.......and on it goes...................

N
Offline Daniel  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 3:28:09 AM(UTC)
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cgb2 wrote:
Even in Acts it seemed first some stop gap biggies, until they could hear Moses...


This is the last time the "messianic movement" was in full agreement about anything!

Since then we have "returned to our Hebraic roots" and continually argued about everything!

;-)
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Offline James  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 4:00:03 AM(UTC)
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Noel wrote:
There is a danger here that we may miss the point, I think.

1)Yes, the 'you have to be circumcised' view tends to come from people who (conveniently) already have been when they can't even remember it


Guilty. I had no say in my circumcision, as my children if I have boys will have no say in theres. Yah has told me to circumcise my sons and I will. If I was not circumcised at birth, I don't see how my view on this would change at all. I read in the Torah where Yah says that every male should be circumcised, I want to follow what He says, I would save the money, it might take a while and a few sacrifices in creature comforts, but I would save the money and do it. And if by chance something happened to me while I was trying to save the money and I died, I will trust Yah to be just, but I'm not going to ignore his instruction because I might die before I can get it done.

Noel wrote:
2) It was most probably done on the wrong day by the wrong person, and therefore, probably needs to be done again, although I'm not quite sure which bit goes next.


I don't know how old i was when it was done to me. I see nowhere saying it has to be done by a priest. I imagine usually it was done by the father, Abraham circumcised Issac.

noel wrote:
3) If you are going to do it, then it has to be by your own choice, and not done before you began your relationship with Yah..........(otherwise it is no different than baptizing babies years before they decide (if ever they do) to start a relationship with Yah.


Actually for the uncircumcised if you are coming to Yah, he does say to get circumcised, but for the majority it was to be done as an infant. It was sign between the parents and Yah. And there is a difference between circumcising an infant, as Yah said, and baptizing a baby, which he never says. Baptism is not a replacement for circumcision, that is a Christian idea. Baptism is completely separate from circumcision. Immersing yourself in the spirit is a personal choice, and must be, but circumcision Yah said to do to your sons, on the eighth day.

noel wrote:
4) We are not, as I understand it, going to have the same bodies when we meet him, any more than Yahushua did after he was glorified.


True, our bodies will not be the same, if we even have them. This however does not change the fact that Yah told us to be circumcised, and to circumcise our sons.

noel wrote:
5) There are lots of bits of the body which won't fit into a heavenly perspective, not just the foreskin. A gut half full of pooh for a start. (You call it something else in the USA, I believe)


I'm sorry, but I don't see your point here.

noel wrote:
6) If, (and I doubt) some are told at the gate to the heavenly tabernacle...."sorry, dude, you can't come in with that thing on", then you should ask Yahushua to please do it for you then and there if it is the one thing which would keep you out of an eternal fellowship with him.


The question really is not rather or not we will be kept out, the question is did he tell us to do it, and why would we not do it.

I'm not saying, and not going to say that everyone here who is not circumcised is going to be turned away for not being circumcised, just like I wouldn't say that anyone here who has ever eaten non-food, will be kept out, or anyone who has ever worked on the Sabbath will be kept out, or that everyone who has told a lie will be kept out. I'm also not saying that circumcision saves us, just as I wouldn't say that not eating non-food saves us, or keeping the Sabbath saves etc. All I am saying is that Yah told us to do it, and our desire should be to do what he told us. So if we know for a fact that he told us to be circumcised why would we not want to do it, why do so many want to try to find a reason not to, or argue that you won't be kept out for not doing it.

What worries me is that there are several verses, like the one I cited above, where a very strong emphasis is put on being circumcised.

I think reading the account of Abraham is a really good way for us to view ourselves coming into a relationship with Yah. Like us Abraham was not raised in a relationship to Yah, he came to it latter in life. Like us he was raised in Babylon, and had to leave. Like us he didn't have a clue what to do when he started. Like us once he came to a relationship, he raised his family in it.

Matthew wrote:
1) Women?


Yah never said to have women circumcised, and he never said that women who weren't circumcised would be excluded. Again, Yah said males are to be circumcised.

Matthew wrote:
2) What about those beheaded during Tribulation for the One who died on the wooden apparatus? If they are not circumcised before their beheading are they not saved? What if they still have not yet read Questioning Paul, of all books, and still hold Paul dear to them, but still choose to be beheaded for the Messiah (or Jesus, as many will probably know Him by) rather than bow to the Beast?


I don't know, I trust Yah. But that doesn't change anything of what Yah said. We are here and now, we can be circumcised, we know he said to be circumcised. So why not do it? Let's say that Yah has provisions for those who are unable to be circumcised, does that mean we, who are able, should ignore his instruction to be circumcised?

Matthew wrote:
3) Are we today keeping the feast of Passover literally correct?


No offense Matthew, I love you, but this is the same as Christian's that argue we can't keep the Torah 100%, so why bother to try. No we can't keep Passover 100% literally, but we should still try to the best of our ability. We can't keep Torah 100%, but we should try to the best of our ability.

Matthew wrote:
4) Does circumcision to another god, like Allah, count if one converted from Islam to following Yahweh?


Don't know. Doesn't change anything. The question is should someone who is not circumcised be circumcised.

Matthew wrote:
5) What are the greatest Commandments, are we keeping them?


Even if we were keeping them 100%, which I'm sure most of us fall short of even that, it doesn't change what Yah said. Yahushua said If you love me keep my commands. He commanded circumcision of every male. There are dozens of verses where Yah says that non Yahudi were to be circumcised, in the verse above Yah went so far as to say if the stranger amongst them wanted to partake in the Passover he had to be circumcised.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that we don't need to be circumcised, nowhere does it say only Yahudi are to be circumcised, repeatedly it tells us that every male is to be circumcised. Unless you can find a verse that says we should not be circumcised, I might have missed something.

I apologies if some of this comes across strong, it is not my intention to be insulting, or condemning. But in the spirit of Love your neighbor as yourself, It seems this is pretty important to Yah, and I would want someone to do the same for me.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline Noel  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:09:21 AM(UTC)
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James


I would like to be sure as to your motives in raising this thread.

You say "I think this is a discussion that many here would enjoy"

To a cynical observer this may appear to be a statement made from a comfortable position of not being too concerned which way the subject goes.

Believe me, discussion of one's salvation (depending on whether or not one has been circumcised), is not a particularly 'enjoyable' one, however important it may be.

Would you have raised the question in the way you did, had you not been circumcised? Try and answer that question honestly. James.

Also, anyone else on this thread may like to examine their motives with this sensitive subject.

Noel
Offline James  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:43:44 AM(UTC)
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Noel wrote:
James


I would like to be sure as to your motives in raising this thread.

You say "I think this is a discussion that many here would enjoy"

To a cynical observer this may appear to be a statement made from a comfortable position of not being too concerned which way the subject goes.


I don't think there is anything when it comes to discussing Scripture where one is not concerned which way the discussion goes. I have my understanding of Scripture, it is always changing as I learn more, and if I am wrong I want someone to show me that I am. That said, I am going to defend my position, until I am convinced that I am wrong. And like anyone if I hold a position, especially concerning Scripture, that I think is true I want to convince others of that.

I find conversations where I discuss with people I differ with, but respect to be very enjoyable. I find debate with those I respect enjoyable. But that doesn't mean I will not refute their arguments when I think they are wrong. I hope that my responses come across as coming from a place of love and respect, and I am sorry if they didn't, I'm not the best communicator.

Noel wrote:
Would you have raised the question in the way you did, had you not been circumcised? Try and answer that question honestly. James.


Not being in that position I can not say with 100% certainty what I would do. I would like to think that if i weren't circumcised at birth, that I would hold the same position, because as I see it that is what Yah says, and would either be circumcised are working on getting myself circumcised. Again i am not there but I would hope that is what I would do.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the way I raised it. It came to mind when I read the passage I cited, and as I stated I know several people on the forum with whom I have had this discussion and I thought I would share this verse with them and everyone else here. I stated my view in the initial post, so obviously my intent, at least in part, was to convince people.

I have always viewed the forum as a place for debate and discussion with informed, intelligent people whose opinions and views I respect. Which is why I tried to answer every question that was posed, and raised my own. I do not, and did not, mean to hurt anyone, insinuate anything about anyone, or disrespect anyone, I only intended to defend my position, and perhaps persuade some people, or be proven wrong, if in fact I am. So please forgive me for any offense I may have caused, it was not my intent, and I apologize.

Noel wrote:
Anyone else on this thread may like to examine their motives with this sensitive subject.


I like to think we all have the same motive, to know and understand Yah's word, and His desire for us. We may have disagreements, but we are all seeking the same goal, the Truth.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline tagim  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 9:03:36 AM(UTC)
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Excellent post Noel. And with all the extraneous research (relish) James laid upon it that we might "enjoy." For one, aged, infirm, penniless and uncircumcised, he had me reaching for the phone to schedule an out-patient, one hour, $5,000.00, non-insurable procedure. But then I thought, where will the money for the mortgage, food, utilities, et al, come from in this cold spell. Yesterday was -26. Yes, it was not an enjoyable read.

Let us start another enjoyable thread: Did any of you collect excrement in your homes from your animals. Terrible analogy, but I wanted to amplify on that which you and others so bravely and astutely weighed in.
Offline yorkie  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 9:11:00 AM(UTC)
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Hi all
I'm a girl :)...(treading on delicate territory here) but also a mother of two sons (uncircumcised) what i am finding confusing with all this is the basis of my relationship with Yah has been trust and rely and heartfelt choice which to my mind is enough, and what I am trying to teach my boys. By requiring circumcision, a physical act takes place. Does this now not become an act of works in order to 'gain a place,'?......this seems a very 'religious'
Offline tagim  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 9:35:29 AM(UTC)
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Of course, that was to have happened on the Sabbath.

Maybe an enjoyable thread to start should be ... in absence of ... " Could there be a point system at time of judgment? After all, what other commandment have we broken and how often do we feel the guilt of a lifetime for our transgressions?

I did write this after viewing James' response. Of course I did not view it personally.
Offline Noach  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 9:38:53 AM(UTC)
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What does the Torah say? Yahuwah is very clear about circumcision. There seem to be people in this topic that are offended by James even bringing this up. Why? If you don't like circumcision or think it doesn't matter, then don't do it. But don't be offended by discussing the sign of the covenant. Yahuweh surely wasn't bashful about discussing it.

Yahuweh makes it very clear that circumcision is to be performed on all males who are a part of the covenant. I don't know how this instruction can be any clearer. If you are uncircumcised, and want to be accepted by Yahuweh, I would get circumcised. Yahuweh does not change, regardless if you think His instructions are too hard or not.

Noach
Offline york mister  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 9:54:08 AM(UTC)
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If you don't like circumcision or think it doesn't matter, then don't do it. ...... If you are uncircumcised, and want to be accepted by Yahuweh, I would get circumcised.

Hmmm.

I wonder if anyone responding to this thread should also clarify whether they were c'd at birth or actually had it done as part of their T&Ring on Yahuwah later in life :-)




Offline Noach  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:08:24 AM(UTC)
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York Mister,

Yahuwah made the process as painless as possible by instructing parents to have their infant sons circumcised. Your dilemma is the unfortunate consequence of having parents that did not care about Yahuwah's instructions. I wouldn't be worried about the pain. Pain is temporary and fleeting compared to acceptance from Yah. Mosheh's wife had to perform a very painful circumcision on her son because Mosheh was unwilling to perform this task. It's important.
Offline James  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 11:29:40 AM(UTC)
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yorkie wrote:
Hi all
I'm a girl :)...(treading on delicate territory here) but also a mother of two sons (uncircumcised) what i am finding confusing with all this is the basis of my relationship with Yah has been trust and rely and heartfelt choice which to my mind is enough, and what I am trying to teach my boys. By requiring circumcision, a physical act takes place. Does this now not become an act of works in order to 'gain a place,'?......this seems a very 'religious'


Being circumcised is not what "gets you in", there are millions who are circumcised and don't know Yah, but it is a sign of your trust and reliance. Do you teach your children to rest on the Sabbath, it's the same thing, keeping the Sabbath will not save you, but as a sign of your trust and reliance on Yah, you keep the Sabbath. I would say teach them the symbolism behind circumcision, and tell them that it should stand as constant reminder to them. To paraphrase Ya'qob/James, even though it's not scripture he puts it better than I, our trust is shown in our works, and one with out the other is useless.

I'm sorry to those who can not afford it, I did not mean to come across cavalier about spending the money. I understand that it is a lot of money, and that many can't afford it right now, and may never be able to afford it. Sadly with our medical system the way it is what should be a relatively simple and cheap procedure costs a lot, and with our current economy people are not faring well.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Richard  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 5:36:24 PM(UTC)
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I believe the point that was made about us not keeping the Passover "to the letter of the Torah" was valid, and it got me to thinking about such strict observance as applied this matter of circumcision. My parents had me circumcised at birth, and I had each of my 4 sons circumcised at birth. Then I and they grew up to be stellar sinners. So those circumcisions didn't amount to much. Are they valid? I believe so. But I was not circumcised as an act of obedience to Yahuwah's Covenant, nor were my sons, for my parents were Christians and I was a Christian when my sons were born. Yahuwah's Torah never entiered my mind, and since I never heard my Methodist parents speak of the Torah, I wouldn't think it entered their minds either.

Nevetheless, I have been circumcised. But you know what? If the Father had not circumcised my heart for me, I wouldn't be here in this forum. If His Word made flesh, Yahushua, had not taught me how to love Him, I wouldn't be here with you folks today. So take all that for what it's worth.

Brothers, if you're not circumcised and you can afford to get circumcised, then I would think it an act of devotion and obedience to be circumcised. If you can't afford it, doesn't your Father know that? He looks on the heart, after all, and not on the outward appearance. Doesn't the Scripture tell us that very thing when Samuel was scrutinizing the sons of Jesse to see which one was Yahuwah's anointed as the next king of Yisrael? It does, and that is significant to this discussion.

The eighth day is perfect for circumcision, because prothrombin (the clotting factor in our blood) is at its highest level in our whole lives on the eighth day, or so I read somewhere once. So it made sense to instruct the Yisraelites to circumcise their male children on the eighth day. That has absolutely nothing to do with anything herein discussed, but I thought you might find it interesting.

I cannot perform the Passover per the Torah. I cannot perform the festival of booths as instructed in the Torah. Am I doomed to be rejected because of it? I hope not. Will your sons be turned away if you don't have them circumcised? I hope not. Let the Spirit of Yahuwah convince you as She will, for She has been sent to guide us into all truth.

Yahuwah be with you all.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:47:44 PM(UTC)
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i guess it's not safe to bring up certain topics concerning Yah's word anymore.
Offline yorkie  
#23 Posted : Wednesday, January 26, 2011 12:34:21 AM(UTC)
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thank you Richard....challenging but encouraging too. :)
Offline James  
#24 Posted : Wednesday, January 26, 2011 3:27:17 AM(UTC)
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flintface wrote:
Brothers, if you're not circumcised and you can afford to get circumcised, then I would think it an act of devotion and obedience to be circumcised. If you can't afford it, doesn't your Father know that?


Very good post Richard. If it is in your ability to be circumcised why not do it. For some it is not possible, but for most it is.

flintface wrote:
I cannot perform the Passover per the Torah. I cannot perform the festival of booths as instructed in the Torah. Am I doomed to be rejected because of it? I hope not. Will your sons be turned away if you don't have them circumcised? I hope not. Let the Spirit of Yahuwah convince you as She will, for She has been sent to guide us into all truth.


The only reason I wouldn't agree with this 100% is there is nowhere in Scripture that says that if you don't keep the passover perfectly you will be excluded from the family, there are several verses that seem say that about circumcision, i.e. Genesis 17:9-14, Ezekiel 44:5-7, Exodus 12:48. That's why I see this such a crucial issue. Again, for some it may not be possible, but if it is possible for you, I wouldn't ignore it.

There are only two things that come to mind, and I might be missing something but I don't think so, that Yah refers to as the sign of the covenant, they are the Sabbath, and Circumcision. The only other sign of the covenant pertains to the rainbow which was a sign of the covenant between Yah and the land. But as far as THE Covenant goes it's one of two signs.

flintface wrote:
My parents had me circumcised at birth, and I had each of my 4 sons circumcised at birth. Then I and they grew up to be stellar sinners. So those circumcisions didn't amount to much.


Again, circumcision doesn't save you, and certainly doesn't make you not a sinner. Like you I was circumcised as an infant, and my parents were a Catholic and a Lutheran, and not religious at all, so I'm positive it wasn't done out of a sense of devotion to Yah.

Let's all for a moment in the interest of fellowship, and relationship try to find common ground to start with. Lets take necessary out of the equation for a moment. Can we all at least agree that all things being equal we should be circumcised, and should get our sons circumcised?
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Daniel  
#25 Posted : Wednesday, January 26, 2011 3:59:56 AM(UTC)
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If you are a 'tuff-guy', you will do it the in the Abrahamic tradition: Do it your self.

PS: Former Marines will do it with only a sharpened rock.

PPS: Active duty Marines can get it done for free.


Nehemiah wrote:
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We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline lassie1865  
#26 Posted : Wednesday, January 26, 2011 5:07:22 AM(UTC)
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"Marines do it for free" - chuckle. I would think one could find a Rabbi or someone at a messianic congregation to do it for a donation, or just an EMT medic friend . . . When our son was born (32 years ago . . . ) as a Christian mom I was thinking about the controversy regarding circumcision as a hygienic procedure; then I worried about "being cut off from MessiYah" for doing it; but, in the back of my mind, I was thinking of the Torah commands . . . so, we had our son circumcised; I am so glad.

My other thought was this: To trust in Yahowsha as MessiYah, and keeping the Feast of Unleavened Bread, is that not "keeping the Passover" today? So, in order to do that properly, one ought to be circumcised. As for slaughtering a lamb, I think that we should wait for the Millennial Temple . . .
Offline Daniel  
#27 Posted : Wednesday, January 26, 2011 7:02:08 AM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
"Marines do it for free" - chuckle. I would think one could find a Rabbi or someone at a messianic congregation to do it for a donation


At the congregation we attend in Atlanta, a couple of rabbis (who do not believe that Our Guy is Messiyah) perform the operation free of charge, in hopes that someday these boys will someday, perhaps, drop the idea that Yahushua is Messiyah... Concurrently, those in attendance are praying that the rabbi will realize that He is Messiyah...
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline cgb2  
#28 Posted : Wednesday, January 26, 2011 7:32:42 AM(UTC)
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I recal an old Saturday Night Live Skit that was a take-off of a car commercial at the time boasting of it's great ride on even bumpy roads, by a Jeweler cutting a diamond.
Take-off was a rabbi performing a circumcision on baby. :^)
Offline bigritchie  
#29 Posted : Wednesday, January 26, 2011 10:19:10 AM(UTC)
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Here is the deal.

You can obey the Creator you claim to worship and do what he says.

or....

You can think about religious excuses all day and excuses to not do what he says. You can make up wacky random scenarios that have nothing to do with you and rationalize away why YOU do not have to obey YHWH.

That is really all it boils down to it. Either you do it, or you reject it. Either you obey or you make excuses.

Either you obey YHWH or you obey Paul. Choice is yours.

Y'shua commanded his followers to do and teach the least of the Torah, and considering circumcision is a forever and everlasting sign of the Covenant, and no one can enter the temple or even partake of Passover without I might recommend obeying him.

What Billybob, the 99 year old uncle's cousins, sisters, former roommate that is broke and can't afford it does, does not apply or have anything to do with you.

It is a simple choice to me anyways. Do or Don't there is no "religion" involved in it.

So to reiterate one last time. YHWH commands you to do it. Y'shua commands you to do it...............I would recommend just doing it!
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#30 Posted : Wednesday, January 26, 2011 1:02:17 PM(UTC)
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Circumcision is a sign or token of a covenant between Yahweh, Abraham, & his seed. A sign or token is a foreshadowing or type of something to come. Just as sacraficing a Passover Lamb is a foreshadowing or type of the crucifiction of Yahshua.

I know without Paul this would be difficult to understand, as many would say it is a teaching Paul uses to misled people away from Yahshua. That Paul teachs by the spirit of the law, not according to the letter of the law. Some might say there's no such thing as the spirit of the law, that if Yahweh said it, then that's the way it is. That we don't need Paul, all we need is the Torah & the Prophets, well that's all the pharisee's had, and look where that got them. The couldn't even see that Yahshua was the Messiah b/c they couldn't see pass the letter of the law.

So did Paul teach us truth when he said:

Rom. 2:25-29 " For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of Yahweh. "

Col. 2:11-14 " In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of the Messiah: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of , who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; "

Are these saying contrary to the Word of Yahweh or was Paul just teaching us what he finally understood from the letter of the law which he learned as a student in the school of Gamaliel. Did he get a spiritual understanding of the letter of the law when he was healed from his blindness ? Did Yahshua remove the scales from his eyes allowing him to see a spiritual truth ? Is this circumcision of the heart by the hands of our High Priest Yahshua the circumcision that we all should be seeking? Lets see if it holds true with the Torah & the Prophets.

Deut.10:16 " Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Jer. 4:4 " Circumcise yourselves to Yahweh , and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Can we circumcise our hearts as we are commanded to do ? No.

Deut.30:6 " And Yahweh thy Elohim will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love thy Elohim with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.



Ezek. 36:26 " A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

We are command to love Yahweh with all of our heart and soul. We can only do this if Yahweh circumcises our hearts. I believe Paul was correct in this teaching, the circumcision that we are to seek both male & female is the circumcision without hands that Paul taught us about, the one performed by the Most High Preist.
Offline Matthew  
#31 Posted : Wednesday, January 26, 2011 2:39:02 PM(UTC)
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Isaiah 56 is a good read regarding circumcision and those definitely not in a position to perform it.

James, no worries mate! ;)
Offline shalom82  
#32 Posted : Wednesday, January 26, 2011 3:10:31 PM(UTC)
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4 points to make

First off several people have said we can't keep the Torah 100%...infact in our capacity we may only be able to live out a fraction of the Torah precepts. That is not entirely accurate. When we don't do what we cannot do due to circumstance or location we are infact submitting ourselves to the will of YHWH. We don't slaughter animals in our backyards in Hoboken or light incense in our services... justiying the practices due to the fact that there is no temple and now we must forumulate our own practices. This is living out the Torah. We observe and do what we can but we do not offer "strange fire". We observe the Torah by faithfully understanding what is there and realizing what we should not and must not do in our locations and circumstances. We do this and we safeguard ourselves against the dangers of religious invention. If we did not live out the Torah in such a manner...where would we be in a short time...perhaps in the pews of the catholic church. The fact of the matter is that even in our inaction we are obeying Torah...we are striving to perform the will of our God and Father. This is part of how we must and should live out Torah at this time.

Secondly, I think we make a big mistake when we see circumcision only as some specific passover precept...where...we say to ourselves...oh well as long as we don't and can't observe a true Passover slaughter/unleavened bread meal. I think it is obvious that YHWH is not that narrow or shallow. We look to Shemoth and the unfolding of the Passover and this is not just a slaughtering or a meal. This is the gateway of the covenent the first step in the unfolding of covenantal relationship, obligations, and priviledges. This is not just about a tourist in Israel or even a guest worker who would like to have a nice meal with his neighbors. This IS the covenant and the first step to relationship and an obligation (however voluntary) to all of what Torah is. The person does not just come into the covenant relationship for a meal. He doesn't get circumcised to partake in that and then commit adultery the next day with Ba'al with no consequences. He is entering into so much more than one feast. In this light my opinion is this....that eating the passover is shorthand for entering into covenant with YHWH and His nation and all that that entails...the full gravity of it....

Thirdly, from a historical standpoint we should by now realize that there were people coming into Israel that already had circumcision as a part of their culture and there were ordinances given to Israel about how to let them in. There are no words written about what to do with those who are already circumsized. It doesn't talk about the Egyptians (who were specifically mentioned)(and who were ritually circumcised at early adulthood as part of their rite of passage in the Kemetic religion of ancient Egypt) It doesn't say that they need to get another inch cut off to do be forgiven for partaking in a pagan/gentile circumcision. Being that YHWH felt no need to go there....I don't see why we need to. Furthermore....I believed from the outset that we were always talking about those who could.....not those who couldn't...for whatever the reason.

Fourthly, as it pertains to this issue of the spiritual or the literal/physical more specifically the matter of circumcision of the heart and circumcision of the flesh. If we want to go down this road and make this argument we shouldn't be wasting our time here. We have no cause against the christians if we ride this logic/argument to its ultimate destination. The fact of the matter is that quoting references to circumsision of the heart...wherever the references may be in Tanakh undermines the Paulian spiritual vs physical argument. In the Tanakh we find that circumcision of the heart and of the flesh exist as ordinances and exhorations side by side. Whether or not they were related or whether or not one represented or forshadowed the other in the end does not matter. They existed side by side....just because your heart was circumsized did not mean that your flesh did not need to be circumcised and if your flesh was circumcised and your heart was not....you also saw the results of that. Once again....I repeat....side by side. One is not the abrogation of the other. One is not the replacement of the other...any more than Yahushua's Pesach offering was a replacement of the Pesach slaughtering/feast. If this is the logic we would find ourselves advocating then why are we not celebrating Christmas with our families. Why are we not going fishing on Saturdays, why are we not eating pork ribs and shrimp cocktails? If one means only that we should not take in "unclean doctrine" and the other spitually means this or this one means this in spiritual terms....then why are we alienating ourselves from our culture, our friends and our family? We understand the spirit of these things...we know what they "really" mean. God understands that we are spiritual....and He obviously isn't into rituals and laws and all that dusty moldy old stuff....right? All the Torah was is a shadow....we have the real deal now....right? We've graduated....right? When you start discounting and rejecting Torah precepts you don't like or that you can't wrap your brain around it gets easier and easier to whittle away at the the rest of the precepts due to preference or convenience. Circumcision (in fact it could be any commandment but we always get caught up on this one because of the physical implications) does not in this light represent just one single commandment...it represents a paradigm....a way of seeing and viewing the Torah and indeed all of the Tanakh.....is it death or life? What is Torah.....it is the Father's will. What evidence would there be of a circumsised heart if not for obeying and giving credence to YHWH's will. Does he who is flippant have a circumsized heart....it's not for me to judge but for me...for myself....it does not. The Torah is our road map and our compass...moreover it is our road. It is our surety that we are not in the wilderness....that as long as we pursue and strive in Torah we cannot drift. And then there are those now who want to cut pieces of the map off, who desire to take detours. And what happens....we become dead, drugged, lukewarm, and estranged from our first love.....to the point where He does not know or recognize us....nor we Him....to the point where we don't even know His name. We become religious. And we smuggly and proudly say that we are spiritual and pursue the heart of the matter and that we aren't into rituals and laws and ordinances.....but they aren't against them....look at any christian whatever stripe they be.....They practice rituals, laws and ordinances...what they are saying is that they are against YHWH's rituals, laws and ordinances....they are against His teaching...His ways....His will. They pray...thy will be done....as some sort of etheral meaningless plea....as if to say....make it happen God because we sure don't know what Your will is. We as long as we do not start rejecting the Torah have that...we know His will for us on Earth. He did not want us to crawl blindly in some vapid passive agressive spiritual limbo or guessing game. Out of love He revealed it to us and now we will reject it? Then what is our prideful rage against the Christians based on? Our zeal? No...our pride is found in the fact that we are 2000 years behind the times.....that is what we have to be proud about if we embrace this logic. I am getting my instructions from YHWH....whether it comes from the pen of Moshe or from the lips of Yahushua. If Paul is right or wrong or he meant that or he really means this doesn't matter. We don't slam our heads against the wall and torture and tear ourselves apart with YashaYahu or Shemoth or ZecharYah or Dani'El or Wayikra. We do with the writings of Paul...we divide into factions and devote more passion and time than we do to the Tanakh or for that matter the words of Yahushua. My Rabbi, my My King, my Moshiach said

"Think not that I am come to destroy the Torah, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Torah, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
."


He did not qualify it or give caveat. He did not say "do not think that I have come to do away with the spiritual and deeper meaning of the Torah...and as long as you understand that part of it you can do what you want as long as you follow whatever moral injunctions my Apostle Paul gives you in the future. " It is clear and emphatic. No dividing no catagorizing....no spiritual...no practical....no moral...no ritual....one Torah....do not do away with it in any sense. Do not disregard it and do not tell other men it is ok to do so.

Given the great great gravity of this exhortation BY GOD!!!!! Do you not think Paul could have been a little bit more clear on the matter? There is to me no greater evidence of who Paul is and what he does than how he is reflected in us....in our confusion, our division, our contention. For me it is simple. Paul just isn't worth the headache or the risk. If others do not see it this way...you remain my brothers. But I will say this....if your advocacy of Paul leads you to a place where you start to justify butchering Torah or torturing it into catagories such as moral/ritual or spiritual/physical....then I will at that time say that you are going against the words of YHWH (iin whatever form) in favor of Paul and if that offends you....then it is your problem...not mine. I can't even believe that we allow ourselves over and over again to be sucked into this mire. I won't do it anymore. This debate is regressing back into what Paul said rather than what Paul meant. I was ok with people trying to defend Paul by giving reasons and evidence to show that what he meant was not in conflict with Tanakh and the words of Yahushua. At least in that activity the Paul had to bow to Tanakh and Yahushua and they were given their due reverence and Paul had to comply. However what I see now is that we have gone back to saying without openly saying it is that Paul does go against the Tanakh and Yahushua and he is right for doing it.

To paraphrase : "Do not think that I have come to do away with the Torah and the Prophets. I haven't and one of the big missions in my ministry is to explain these words to you....in every sense...not just how to understand them...but how to do them... and the Tanakh won't be done away with until heaven and earth have passed away. I will honor and reward those who trust and obey and love Torah and I will dismiss those who reject it and tell others to do so. I don't even know those who do this. They are strangers whose company I do not want. Now go and teach this to the world." To me it is simple....I don't need Paul's help or explanations. Paul can disappear and I will still have thiese clear and eternal words.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline york mister  
#33 Posted : Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:12:08 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for taking the time to explore and expand on this.. I find it really helpful and based on this and my own reading I do find myself looking for reasons not to it rather than just biting the bullet - that's between me a Yah at the moment.

Any encouraging words from someone who has had this performed as an adult because of their desire to follow the Torah appreciated.
Offline James  
#34 Posted : Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:01:53 AM(UTC)
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HellaluYAH, very well stated shalom82.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline Daniel  
#35 Posted : Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:45:11 AM(UTC)
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cgb2 wrote:
I recal an old Saturday Night Live Skit that was a take-off of a car commercial ...Take-off was a rabbi performing a circumcision on baby. :^)


I remember that one, too!

(We are getting old!)
Nehemiah wrote:
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We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline Daniel  
#36 Posted : Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:58:28 AM(UTC)
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bigritchie wrote:
Either you obey YHWH or you obey Paul. Choice is yours.
[snip-snip-snip]
(pardon the pun)
So to reiterate one last time. YHWH commands you to do it. Y'shua commands you to do it...............I would recommend just doing it!


As it is written (on the side of my running shoes): "Just Do It".

shalom82 wrote:
First off several people have said we can't keep the Torah 100%...

Come to think of it, only one guy was able to do it 100%, and look what they did to him...

shalom82 wrote:
Paul just isn't worth the headache or the risk.


Be sure to by my new book: "Ignoring Paul"...
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline lassie1865  
#37 Posted : Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:09:08 AM(UTC)
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Shalom82:

The email through the forum doesn't seem to ever work for me. Send me an email at lassie4@juno.com; I had a comment for your posting; I like it a lot! I am printing it out for my class tonight!
Offline bigritchie  
#38 Posted : Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:22:23 AM(UTC)
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Posts: 305
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TRUTH B-TOLD wrote:
Circumcision is a sign or token of a covenant between Yahweh, Abraham, & his seed. A sign or token is a foreshadowing or type of something to come. Just as sacraficing a Passover Lamb is a foreshadowing or type of the crucifiction of Yahshua.

I know without Paul this would be difficult to understand, as many would say it is a teaching Paul uses to misled people away from Yahshua. That Paul teachs by the spirit of the law, not according to the letter of the law. Some might say there's no such thing as the spirit of the law, that if Yahweh said it, then that's the way it is. That we don't need Paul, all we need is the Torah & the Prophets, well that's all the pharisee's had, and look where that got them. The couldn't even see that Yahshua was the Messiah b/c they couldn't see pass the letter of the law.

So did Paul teach us truth when he said:

Rom. 2:25-29 " For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of Yahweh. "

Col. 2:11-14 " In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of the Messiah: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of , who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; "

Are these saying contrary to the Word of Yahweh or was Paul just teaching us what he finally understood from the letter of the law which he learned as a student in the school of Gamaliel. Did he get a spiritual understanding of the letter of the law when he was healed from his blindness ? Did Yahshua remove the scales from his eyes allowing him to see a spiritual truth ? Is this circumcision of the heart by the hands of our High Priest Yahshua the circumcision that we all should be seeking? Lets see if it holds true with the Torah & the Prophets.

Deut.10:16 " Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Jer. 4:4 " Circumcise yourselves to Yahweh , and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Can we circumcise our hearts as we are commanded to do ? No.

Deut.30:6 " And Yahweh thy Elohim will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love thy Elohim with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.



Ezek. 36:26 " A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

We are command to love Yahweh with all of our heart and soul. We can only do this if Yahweh circumcises our hearts. I believe Paul was correct in this teaching, the circumcision that we are to seek both male & female is the circumcision without hands that Paul taught us about, the one performed by the Most High Preist.


#1 What Paul of Tarsus says about circumcision DOES NOT MATTER. Paul is not God, nor is he the Messiah.

#2 Circumcision of the heat does not do away with the command to physically circumcise. That command still exist and the Creator warned it was FOREVER and EVERLASTING and a SIGN of the Covenant.

#3 You quoted Ezek. 36:26 " A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.".....now wait a minute, what else does it say besides this one verse? In fact, what does the very next sentence say?

And I will put my spirit within you, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, AND YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS AND DO THEM So the very concept of having a new heart is so we DO what we are commanded.

#4 You quoted Deuteronomy 30:6 "And Yahweh thy Elohim will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love thy Elohim with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live". But once again, what does the text say after that?

And thou shalt return and obey the voice of YHWH, AND DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS WHICH I COMMAND THEE THIS DAY......................IF thou shalt hearken unto the voice of YHWH thy Elohim, TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS AND HIS STATUTES which are written in the Book of Torah

In fact Deuteronomy 30 goes on to tell us not to make silly excuses to why we cannot keep the Torah! And then goes on to say....

"But the word is nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, THAT THOU MAYEST DO IT" (and of course Paul of Tarsus butchers this in Galatians when he quotes it, and leave out the DO IT part.)

#5 You said circumcision was a sign between Abraham and his seed.

A. Abraham was a GENTILE who became a Hebrew.

B. All of Abraham's servant those who lived with him, whether they were Abraham's seed or not were circumcised.

If we love YHWH with all our heart, soul, and might, we will DO what he says to do.

Guys whether you think Paul is pro-Torah or a apostate, what he says DOES NOT MATTER if it conflicts with what the Creator says that we claim to worship. Obey the Creator.


Offline cgb2  
#39 Posted : Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:36:24 PM(UTC)
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http://www.taraklamp.com/

?...glad I was done as a baby, but this looks interesting.
Offline danshelper  
#40 Posted : Friday, January 28, 2011 3:55:15 AM(UTC)
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Since we are one with Him, we have all – male, female, young, old, etc. – already been physically circumcised. His physical circumcision on the 8th day exactly as the law prescribed covers all of us who are in Him, part of Him, one with Him. If we believe that we have participated in His physical death for our sins (1 Peter 4:1), we also have to accept that we have participated in His physical life. His physical life, fulfilling all righteousness according to the law, is also applied to us. He is our physical righteousness (Jeremiah 33:16).

Now He lives in us and we live in Him – spiritually. This is what He fervently prayed in John 17. Our relationship with Him is the spiritual reality that physical marriage is the shadow of. And like physical marriage produces offspring, through our spiritual union with Him, we bear much fruit – the fruit of righteousness (John 15). Physical circumcision makes absolutely no contribution to the fruit we bear in the spiritual relationship – love and reverence for YHWH, wisdom, knowledge, moral purity, humility, compassion, mercy, forgiveness, brotherly love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control, endurance.

Circumcision was a sign of submission to authority and it is a shadow/picture of spiritual circumcision of our hearts. We, the spiritual wife, submit to our Savior who is our authority, head – as the husband is the authority and head of his wife.

Physically, the woman is not circumcised – and we are all the ‘wife’ of our Savior, Yahushua the Messiah.

Offline Noach  
#41 Posted : Friday, January 28, 2011 8:03:28 AM(UTC)
Noach
Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127

Danshelper,

Your opinion regarding circumcision is contrary to what the Torah says. So unless Yahuwah changed His mind, and unless Yahusha changed the Torah, your opinion, and Paul's, is wrong. Its as simple as that. If we heed Yahuwah's instructions it is vitally important that we have are male sins circumcised as He instructed.
Offline lassie1865  
#42 Posted : Friday, January 28, 2011 10:05:54 AM(UTC)
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I am participating in a class with my friend. We are reading "How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth" by Gordon Fee. My assignment this week is to analyze the parable of the old and new wineskins and the parable of the 10 virgins. If there is a thread on the forum about these, please let me know. I am open for all your input.
Offline Matthew  
#43 Posted : Friday, January 28, 2011 11:58:56 AM(UTC)
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cgb2 wrote:
http://www.taraklamp.com/

?...glad I was done as a baby, but this looks interesting.


Defeats the purpose of it being a blood covenant, doesn't it? ;)
Offline bigritchie  
#44 Posted : Friday, January 28, 2011 3:55:37 PM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
I am participating in a class with my friend. We are reading "How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth" by Gordon Fee. My assignment this week is to analyze the parable of the old and new wineskins and the parable of the 10 virgins. If there is a thread on the forum about these, please let me know. I am open for all your input.


Thy Torah is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

The 5 Virgins not selected are without Torah. This is why he reiterates the same thing he says in Matthew chapter 7. "Depart from me you negators of the Torah, I NEVER KNEW YOU"

They are the christians of the world that call him Lord and refuse to do what he says. But they do not have the light of Torah in them.
Offline Matthew  
#45 Posted : Friday, January 28, 2011 4:45:10 PM(UTC)
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bigritchie wrote:
The 5 Virgins not selected are without Torah. This is why he reiterates the same thing he says in Matthew chapter 7. "Depart from me you negators of the Torah, I NEVER KNEW YOU"


Don't you mean without the Spirit, the oil of the anointing?

Here's something to ponder:

Acts 10:44-48 (quick NIV copy and paste)

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Why water baptism and not circumcision?

Also, danshelper's post is echoed in John 6:25-71, unless of course someone can prove her wrong.
Offline Noach  
#46 Posted : Friday, January 28, 2011 6:51:04 PM(UTC)
Noach
Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127

Since Yahusha was physically immersed, does that mean that immersion is no longer applicable? How about Passover, since He physically performed that also? Or what about the Sabbath? To say that since Yahusha performed a Torah instruction and that means we don't need to do that anymore is completely missing the point of Him performing that instruction. Yahusha is the Torah made flesh. He is the Word. All that eat of the word (trust in Him) have everlasting life. Our participation is based on trust, and if we trust Him, we will do as He instructed. The Torah is full of physical metaphores to help us understand His promises. Yahusha did not do away with any of these instructions. He showed us how they benefit our lives.
Offline bigritchie  
#47 Posted : Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:36:43 AM(UTC)
bigritchie
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Matthew wrote:
Don't you mean without the Spirit, the oil of the anointing?

Here's something to ponder:

Acts 10:44-48 (quick NIV copy and paste)

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Why water baptism and not circumcision?

Also, danshelper's post is echoed in John 6:25-71, unless of course someone can prove her wrong.


Matthew 22:16 And they sent some of their disciples unto him with the Herodians saying “Master, we know that thou art true, AND THOU TEACHEST THE WAY OF YHWH IN TRUTH..



They are saying that Y'shua teaches the TORAH in truth.



Ok, now what is "TRUTH", and how do the Scriptures define it?



Psalms 119:142



Thy righteousness is a everlasting righteousness, AND THY TORAH IS TRUTH.



John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy word, THY WORD IS TRUTH.



Sanctify is set-apart, set-apart is holy. We are made set-apart by Torah! Y'shua is the divine instructions of the Creator made flesh who can only speak what his Father laid upon him.



Psalms 119:151



Thou are near, O YHWH, and ALL thy commandments are TRUTH.



Malachi 2:6 The TORAH of TRUTH was in His mouth, and iniquity was not found on his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many from iniquity.



What is Sin? Sin is transgression of the Torah, the truth.



Ever wonder why the 5 virgins without oil and a light were not taken as brides in the parable of the 10 Virgins? They were without TORAH.



Proverbs 6:23 For the commandments is a LAMP, and the TORAH is LIGHT; and reproofs of instructions are THE WAY of LIFE.



(Depart from me you who are without Torah, I never knew you) “I am the LIGHT of the word” Messiah was “The Light”, and he was the Torah made flesh!



John 3:21 But he THAT DOETH TRUTH cometh to THE LIGHT, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought of God



What is light in the Above? TORAH TORAH TORAH What is truth? TORAH TORAH TORAH



1 John 2:4 he that saith, I know him AND KEEPETH NOT HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR, and the TRUTH is not in him.



They do not keep his commandments, there is NO TORAH in them. No Instructions.



What is truth? TORAH TORAH.



The Torah sets you free!



John 8:32 And ye shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall make you FREE.



This is why James called the TORAH the perfect law of liberty!



James 1:25



But whoso looketh into the perfect TORAH of LIBERTY, and CONTINUETH THEREIN, he being not a forgetful hearer, BUT A DOER OF THE WORK, this man shall be blessed in his dead.



King David said that those who seek and walk after the Torah will walk at liberty. James is simply quoting what Grandpa King David taught!



What is the set-apart spirit?



Ezekiel 36:26-27



A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



John 15:26



But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH……



John 16:13



Howbeit when he, the SPIRIT of TRUTH is come, he will GUIDE you into ALL TRUTH.



The Spirit of TORAH!|



This is why John said:



3 John 1:14



I have no greater joy that to hear my children walk IN TRUTH.

Circumcision if a forever, and everlasting command and sign of the Covenant, as it is a command by very definition it is TRUTH. Therefor to reject TRUTH in favor of Darkness because of Paul of Tarsus is very dangerous folks! Teaching that people do not need to be circumcised will at best land a person the position of "Least" in the Kingdom my friends! And using Paul as a excuse not to do it, is not different then the christians we condemn because they use Paul as a excuse not to keep the Feasts and Sabbaths
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#48 Posted : Saturday, January 29, 2011 8:40:19 AM(UTC)
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Yahshua is the Word, he is the truth made flesh and he is the light, the way, and the life. Torah is the Word of God, to say:
Quote:
They are saying that Y'shua teaches the TORAH in truth.
is to say Yahshua teaches the word in himself.

Quote:
Ok, now what is "TRUTH", and how do the Scriptures define it?


John 14:6 " Yahshua saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. "

Quote:
Psalms 119:142 Thy righteousness is a everlasting righteousness, AND THY TORAH IS TRUTH.


Psalms 119:142 Thy righteousness is a everlasting righteousness, AND THY WORD is Yahshua .

Quote:
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy word, THY WORD IS TRUTH.


John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy Yahshua, THY WORD IS Yahshua.

Quote:
Ever wonder why the 5 virgins without oil and a light were not taken as brides in the parable of the 10 Virgins? They were without TORAH.


Ever wonder why the 5 virgins without oil and a light were not taken as brides in the parable of the 10 Virgins? They were without Yahshua.

Quote:
Proverbs 6:23 For the commandments is a LAMP, and the TORAH is LIGHT; and reproofs of instructions are THE WAY of LIFE.


Proverbs 6:23 For the commandments is a LAMP, and the TORAH is YAHSHUA thy WORD; and reproofs of instructions are THE WAY of YAHSHUA.



Quote:
(Depart from me you who are without Torah, I never knew you) “I am the LIGHT of the word” Messiah was “The Light”, and he was the Torah made flesh!


(Depart from me you who are without Yahshua, I never knew you) “I am Yahshua the word” Messiah was “The Light”, and he was the Torah made flesh!



Quote:
What is the set-apart spirit? John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH……John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the SPIRIT of TRUTH is come, he will GUIDE you into ALL TRUTH. The Spirit of TORAH!


What is the set-apart spirit? John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, EVEN THE SPIRIT OF YAHSHUA……John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the SPIRIT of YAHSHUA is come, he will GUIDE you into ALL TRUTH. The Spirit of YAHSHUA

I'm sorry that all of this is monotonous, but my point is that the Torah, the Word, the Truth, the Light, the Life, the Way, Yahweh, Yahshua, and the Set Apart Spirit are all one and the same. It is Yahweh, Yahshua, and the Set Apart Spirit that set us free. They do the work of salvation that is necessary for one to enter the kingdom of Elohim. They circumcise our hearts, baptise us in the water that is the Word, and they cause us to keep Elohim's commandments. We are commanded to be circumcised and be baptised, we can't do them, so we must hope and wait upon Elohim to do these works for us. Just as we can't pay for our sins, we must also trust and rely on Elohim for this work also. The 5 virgins that were left didn't have the Spirit of Elohim in them they were relying on the milk of the gospel, they didn't mature to eat the meat of the gospel. they were trusting in the physical & not the spiritual things of Elohim. Yahshua healed physically the blind, the deaf, and the leper while here on earth, today he opens the eyes that we can perceive, he makes it possible that we can hear and understand his words, and he cleanse us of our sins. These are all spiritually done we see them through the friuts of them that he has healed.
Offline bigritchie  
#49 Posted : Saturday, January 29, 2011 9:17:30 AM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
Location: USA

Quote:
We are commanded to be circumcised and be baptised, we can't do them


Can't do them?

Guys please, leave the nonsense out of the discussion. Anyone on here is more the capable of being Baptized and getting Circumcised. To say you cannot and are incapable of doing so is quite frankly nonsense.

Once again making up silly spiritual excuses why you cannot obey the Creator is no different then Christians saying "Well God knows my heart" when it comes to the Sabbath, or Christmas, or anything else for that matter.

Circumcision of the heart is not some new christian religious concept that occured after Y'shua came. Circumcision of the heart is a TANAKH concept that existed right along with physical circumcision.

I mean really guys, do you all do this at your places of work? If your boss orders you to do something, do you ignore him, and then when he ask why say "Well lolz I spiritualized it and you know my heart lolz".

Guys there is a line in the sand, and you either obey, or you make silly religious excuses. Choose wisely.

"But Paul says" is not going to cut it on judgment day.
Offline Matthew  
#50 Posted : Saturday, January 29, 2011 12:23:54 PM(UTC)
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Here's a snippet from the second volume of kp's The Torah Code:

Quote:
It was inevitable, I suppose, that a raging controversy would arise pitting those who focused only on the sign against those who comprehended only what it signified. Think of it this way. In order to come to Yahweh, we have to get off the world’s broad highway leading to destruction, making a “right turn” (so to speak) onto the narrow path that leads to life. Circumcision is like the turn indicator signal in our car. Just as we are supposed to flip on our blinkers to alert those sharing the road of our intentions, so Israel, following Abraham, was instructed to circumcise their male children, making their intention to turn toward Yahweh clear to the gentiles following them.

But—and this is important—the signal is not the same thing as the turn. It does no good to click on your blinker if you never actually change direction; it’s confusing, misleading, and sometimes even dangerous. It is, in fact, a lie. In the end, it’s the turn that’s essential. To get to our intended destination, we must choose to follow Yahweh’s path. So Yahweh begs Israel to follow through on the symbol of circumcision: “Circumcise yourselves to Yahweh; remove the foreskin of your hearts, O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest My wrath go forth like fire, and burn with none to quench it, because of the evil of your deeds.” (Jeremiah 4:4) Circumcision of the flesh is not really the point, He says. What’s critical is what it means—the separation of the sin from the soul.

But what if we “turn right” without signaling first? That’s the scenario being discussed in Acts 15, where it was determined by the Jewish Christians that gentile believers need not be physically circumcised in order to be saved. Making the turn is what’s needful. Consider this: although the traffic laws require you to signal before you make a turn, using your turn indicator is theoretically pointless if you’re the last vehicle in line—if there is no one behind you to see it. It is a good thing to follow the letter of the law, of course. We should do so, since the regulations are there for our benefit and safety. But what’s critically important is that we reach our destination, not the flawless adherence to the rules of the road while we’re on our journey.


Also, if you read really close regarding circumcision in the Tanakh you'll notice that circumcision as a sign is intimately associated with Abraham's ownership of the Land.
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