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Offline Rohn  
#1 Posted : Sunday, October 17, 2010 6:05:19 AM(UTC)
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Joined: 5/1/2009(UTC)
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Did everyone make it through the fall feast celebrations without having to join Who's the Biggest Loser or Weight Watchers? What an incredible bit of work the Scriptures are. If you go Saturdays to Synagogue and in Hebrew Torah each week, you read the same sentences yet you don't see the lines speaking to and about Yashua. I love to go. So focused on the Law and the Land. When I read the Gospel lately shat strikes me is how much we have changed the Planet in the last 150 yrs. We are like "the Rich man".

I'm always brought back to the Wedding Feast Parable when I think we have it all figured out. That line in the Parable (Lk 14:16-24. Matt 22:2-14) where the King finally has some guests to attend. Then He approaches one guest asking My good man, apparently you forgot to stop by the Men's Warehouse to pick up a tux for the occasion is quite formal. The guest it is said has no reply, he has no excuse. As a fan of Korean Sageuk dramas of old Chosun Palace life the next line is pointed. The King looks over at His attendants’ and raises the heavenly eyebrows, meaning throw the bum out.
What gets me is when Yashua is done he tells everyone that the guest gets to visit a place where there is much gnashing of teeth. Not a pleasant place, but reminiscent of the picture of The rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. How does it go, “all are invited, only a few are chosen”. Personally I am a big skeptic when it comes to "the Easy Button" or Christian Pre-Trib Rapture. The drums are beating rather loudly though, some Messianic folks are telling their people that the tribulation will slowly begin from this year -2010.
I firmly believed when I read Future History and Yada Yahweh, we had two brothers who could write with clarity and as a whole I thought we were on to something. Now, I wonder if we have any idea what the master will do.
We are still stuck in a Galatians’ inquisition. When I want to understand Galatians, I turn to Elder Jacob Meyer's Commentary on Galatians from the Assembly of Yahweh. A book about 200 pages. Elder Meyer was a bit, how do they call it, a head of his time. He wasn't a fiery orator, but he was insightful and studious. I also like what Pastor Prince of Singapore has to say about the Law and its position to Grace. If we are so fortunate as to be at the "banquet" dressed to the nines for it I believe we are in for quite an education.
Offline bigritchie  
#2 Posted : Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:14:04 AM(UTC)
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Good ole Galatians hehe.

Here is something I have learned the past few years.

When I came out of Babylon, I learned to take my western gentile American christians glasses off.

The past year or so, I have had to learn to take my Messianic glasses off and stop looking at galatians through them.

Now I refuse to wear any glasses as I study the Scriptures and compare it with Torah and the Prophets, line by line and precept by precept.
Offline Rohn  
#3 Posted : Monday, October 18, 2010 5:51:09 AM(UTC)
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And what have your learned from taking your glasses off. Other than it might be difficult to see. Seriously, Rich the only the Torah or the law brought was death. So now we are convicted of our sin. Why did people live so long before if that they were not under the law. Once people came under the law. That seems when the death sentence was handed down. Did not Yashua say he would live under the Law yet he offered to us grace, which to me is Mercy. Why because the Torah does not give life. The life that we seek, that so called life giving water. Was it not bestowed through service and giving, through the grace and mercy given by the Almighty One. The Torah in all of its prophetic richness is all about works, yet our efforts will never do and never give what our Messiah was able to give on behalf of our Creator.
What I was trying to bring up about Matthew 22. Since I believe we are the generation and I don't think we will be whisked away, although I hold out some hope that like Noah's Ark...there will be some safety mechanism? Problem is we have close to 7 billion people today and an Ark to hold even the remnant of believers. Rapture is a band wagon that appeals to everyone. It keeps us from thinking about all those nuclear weapons we have built up. But enough about a rapture!
Mt 22 speaks to the ones that were finally invited by the King and yet they were not chosen. Like all remnants, it is a very small selection. We all like to believe that we are doing what is Christ's bidding, yet He always seems to surprise everyone. I suppose I am wondering what His surprise will be on the glorious day of His return. If I am fortunate to make it through the days of tribulation, which I may not, as this Christian soldier is not getting any younger. We will have our work cut out for us, don't you also think so Richie?
Offline bigritchie  
#4 Posted : Monday, October 18, 2010 9:02:44 AM(UTC)
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Rohn wrote:
And what have your learned from taking your glasses off. Other than it might be difficult to see. Seriously, Rich the only the Torah or the law brought was death. So now we are convicted of our sin. Why did people live so long before if that they were not under the law. Once people came under the law. That seems when the death sentence was handed down. Did not Yashua say he would live under the Law yet he offered to us grace, which to me is Mercy. Why because the Torah does not give life. The life that we seek, that so called life giving water. Was it not bestowed through service and giving, through the grace and mercy given by the Almighty One. The Torah in all of its prophetic richness is all about works, yet our efforts will never do and never give what our Messiah was able to give on behalf of our Creator.
What I was trying to bring up about Matthew 22. Since I believe we are the generation and I don't think we will be whisked away, although I hold out some hope that like Noah's Ark...there will be some safety mechanism? Problem is we have close to 7 billion people today and an Ark to hold even the remnant of believers. Rapture is a band wagon that appeals to everyone. It keeps us from thinking about all those nuclear weapons we have built up. But enough about a rapture!
Mt 22 speaks to the ones that were finally invited by the King and yet they were not chosen. Like all remnants, it is a very small selection. We all like to believe that we are doing what is Christ's bidding, yet He always seems to surprise everyone. I suppose I am wondering what His surprise will be on the glorious day of His return. If I am fortunate to make it through the days of tribulation, which I may not, as this Christian soldier is not getting any younger. We will have our work cut out for us, don't you also think so Richie?


Going to place my words in red for easier reading

And what have your learned from taking your glasses off.

I have learned that Paul of Tarsus is a false prophet

Other than it might be difficult to see. Seriously, Rich the only the Torah or the law brought was death.

The Creator and Moses and the prophets beg to differ. The Torah brought death to those who refused to obey it. To those who obeyed it, it brought life. The Messiah also made it clear that Torah is still in effect and if you call him "Lord" but do not keep the Torah you will not be given eternal life.

So now we are convicted of our sin.

Sin as defined by the Torah and 1 John 3:4 is transgression of the Torah.

Why did people live so long before if that they were not under the law.

Pre-flood earth conditions, and the Torah also tells us that he shortened the life-span of mankind LONG before the Torah was ever given. The Torah also promises to lengthen life to those who keep its commands.

Once people came under the law. That seems when the death sentence was handed down. Did not Yashua say he would live under the Law yet he offered to us grace,

Actually the Messiah never said one word about "Grace". The Messiah commanded his followers to do and teach the least of the Torah, and promised to throw people who negate the Torah and are without Torah into the Pit. The word "grace" in its Hebrew non pagan form, also occurs 5 times as much in the Tanakh. Grace is not some new religious concept.

which to me is Mercy.

Mercy was always shown. In fact the giving of Torah was one of the most merciful things the Creator ever did.

Why because the Torah does not give life.

The Torah, Psalms, Prophets, Messiah, and real apostles beg to differ.

Proverbs 3:18 SHE (the Torah) is a TREE OF LIFE to them that lay hold on her; and happy is every one that retaineth her.

Revelations 22:14

Blessed are they that DO his commandments, that they may have the right to eat of THE TREE of LIFE, and may ENTER into the gates of the city.

Psalms 119:142

Thy righteousness is a everlasting righteousness, AND THY TORAH IS TRUTH

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth, THY WORD IS TRUTH.

Deuteronomy 30:16

In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest LIVE and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a LAMP, and the TORAH is LIGHT, and reproofs the INSTRUCTION in the WAY OF LIFE.

Proverbs 13:14

The TORAH of the wise is a FOUNTAIN OF LIFE, to depart from the snares of death



The life that we seek, that so called life giving water.

Proverbs 13:14

The TORAH of the wise is a FOUNTAIN OF LIFE, to depart from the snares of death



Was it not bestowed through service and giving, through the grace and mercy given by the Almighty One. The Torah in all of its prophetic richness is all about works, yet our efforts will never do and never give what our Messiah was able to give on behalf of our Creator. What I was trying to bring up about Matthew 22. Since I believe we are the generation and I don't think we will be whisked away, although I hold out some hope that like Noah's Ark...there will be some safety mechanism? Problem is we have close to 7 billion people today and an Ark to hold even the remnant of believers. Rapture is a band wagon that appeals to everyone. It keeps us from thinking about all those nuclear weapons we have built up. But enough about a rapture!

I agree with you regarding the rapture. More nonsense from the Christian church. In fact Hebrew versions of the Matthew make it clear the ones who are "raptured" are the evil ones who are taken away so that the righteous might inherit planet earth.

Mt 22 speaks to the ones that were finally invited by the King and yet they were not chosen. Like all remnants, it is a very small selection.

Matthew 5-7 makes it clear why they were not chosen. They were without Torah, and negators of the law.

We all like to believe that we are doing what is Christ's bidding,

Christ is a pagan term that means drugged. The Greeks called all their pagan gods "Christ".

I understand you are speaking of the Hebrew Messiah though, and his bidding was that if we wanted to have eternal life was to Keep the commandments. His bidding was that his followers DO and teach the least of the Torah.


yet He always seems to surprise everyone. I suppose I am wondering what His surprise will be on the glorious day of His return. If I am fortunate to make it through the days of tribulation, which I may not, as this Christian soldier is not getting any younger. We will have our work cut out for us, don't you also think so Richie?

Friend I think this. All those times you looked around at the religious people and said "They must not be a real christian.............I think they were, and you are something else :-)

The Hebrew Messiah was never a christian, nor were any of his followers, they were all Torah observant Jews who rejected man made religion that added and subtracted from the Torah and made it of no effect.

Christianity tries to make its followers choose between grace and Torah. This is a false argument.

Grace is the unmerited forgiveness of breaking Torah. Sin is transgression of the Torah.

Grace and Torah go hand in hand.
Offline Yah Tselem  
#5 Posted : Monday, October 18, 2010 1:48:49 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
I agree with you regarding the rapture. More nonsense from the Christian church. In fact Hebrew versions of the Matthew make it clear the ones who are "raptured" are the evil ones who are taken away so that the righteous might inherit planet earth.


What about the harvest of Taruwah? I'm for sure going in that one if I don't die first. I think it will happen in 2023, but maybe sooner.
"And [you shall heed] (wa - and so then you shall observe the) Festival Feast (chag - celebratory gathering) of the Harvest (qatsiyr - the time of reaping what was sown, of gathering the crop) of the first fruits (bikuwrym) of your (‘atah) labors (ma’aseh - work, undertakings, pursuits, and accomplishments) which (‘asher - by way of making a connection and through relationship) you sow (zara’ - plant seeds) in the field (sadeh - the land), the celebratory Festival Feast (chag) of the Ingathering (‘aciyph - of collecting, gathering, assembling, receiving and withdrawing the harvest), at the conclusion of (yatsa’ - bringing to an end and finishing) the year (sanah - time of renewal), in which (ba - where) you are brought together, received, and removed (‘asaph - gathered in, assembled together, withdrawn, and harvested) from (min) your labors (ma’aseh - work) in the field of cultivation (sadeh)." (Exodus 23:16)

Isn't that speaking about the reaping of souls who have been born anew into His family as a result of the first four Called-Out Assemblies? The way I see it right now, I am in a relationship with Yahweh.. He has called me out of Babylon. He is fine tuning me into a useful tool, even though I still and will always have a lot to learn. Now that I'm his useful tool, what does He want me to do? For one, He wants me to expose Babylon and be ready to tell people about it in whatever way comes along. Why? Because there are people out there seeking the truth & if they find it, then they can be harvested along with me at the feast of Taruwah. Or maybe, after Taruwah comes and we're gone, some of them will find books, or posts, or websites, etc that us tools have done and they will be harvested later in the tribulation in the gleaning part.


"You shall arrive and enter (bow’ - come to and go inside) Yahuweh, your God’s (‘elohym) home, family, and household (bayith - tabernacle and dwelling place) with the first and choicest (re’shyth - the initial and most valued) of the first fruits (bikkurym) of your soil (‘adamah - earth as in the sense of ground, and also a cognate of ‘Adam, the first man created in Yahweh’s image)..." (Exodus 23:19)

"Behold (hineh - look and see), I Myself (‘anokiy - I Am will provide and) will send out and dispatch (salah - strip off an outer layer and reach out, freely giving) a supernatural messenger (mal’ak - a theophanic, or visible manifestation of God who will serve as His Spiritual Representative, as an envoy from heaven to carry His message and do His work) to (lo) appear in your presence (paneh ‘athah) to (lo) be your protector (samara - the one you should carefully observe and revere to remain safe, cared for, and protected) in (ba) the Way (darak - sent out to lead, guide, direct) and to arrive to bring you (bow’ ’athah - to come to enable you to enter and be included) into God’s (‘el - inside the Almighty’s) home (maqom - dwelling place and upright assembly, the standing place, household, and abode) which through relationship (‘asher) I have prepared and firmly established (kuwn - fashioned and formed, arranged and set in place)." (Exodus 23:20)


"Carefully observe and be secure (samar - care about, revere, and cling to Me) by means of (min) His presence (paneh - His appearance), and listen to (sama’ - receive, understand, and heed His message, His news, summons, and the call of) His voice (qowl). Do not (‘al) rebel against (marar ba - be embittered or be angry against Him, do not defy or be disobedient to His authority, or display infidelity toward) Him, for indeed (kiy - because if you do and are, if you are identified as such, and are burned by this brand) I will not lift you up or carry you away (nasa’ - respect, forgive, exalt, honor, accept, or raise you) from your rebellious transgressions (pesha’ - revolt, crimes, offences, faults, and sin), for indeed, My brand (‘ani kiy) name (shem - proper designation, renown, reputation, and glory) is in (qereb - inside His physical human body, in the midst of) Him." (Exodus 23:21)

"Thus declares and predicts (na’um - prophesy) the Upright Pillar and Foundation of the Tabernacle (‘eden), Yahuweh, who gathers and assembles (qabas - collets up together into one place) the scattered (nadah - exiled, outcast, banished, persecuted, and hunted) of Yisra’el, ‘I will also provide testimony and restoration (‘uwd/’owd - return and repeatedly bear witness and renew), gathering and collecting up (qabas - mustering) others beside those (‘alayw) already gathered.’" (Yashayahu / Isaiah 56:8)

and the best for last:
"The upright person (saddiq - innocent, guiltless, vindicated, and righteous, the judgmental and discriminating, the godly and redeemed) will disappear (‘abad - vanish, enter a state where their whereabouts are unknown), and no one (‘ayin ish) will devote any thought to it (sym leb - will take it to heart, ponder the core of the issue). Faithful and loving (hesed - devoted and favored, relationship-oriented and affectionate, merciful and favored, zealous and passionate, loyal and related) men and women (‘ish - people) will be gathered and removed, harvested and received (ne’esapym - brought together and taken away, collected and then moved from one place to another as a reward, assembled and withdrawn) while no one (‘ayin) perceives what’s happening (byn - realizes what has occurred, understands or explains accurately, is perceptive or judgmental, diligently considering or prudently discerning). For indeed (kiy - surely) from your presence (min paneh) the upright (saddiq - innocent, guiltless, and vindicated, and righteous, the judgmental and discriminating, the godly and redeemed) will be gathered together and taken (‘asap - harvested and withdrawn, reaped from the winepress and threshing floor, removed and received) away from the evil calamity (ra’a - wicked rule of man, time of perverseness, misery, crime, and destruction)." (Yashayahu / Isaiah 57:1)

Did I miss something? No rapture = no harvest, no harvest = no fulfillment of Taruwah. I am a million percent sure I will not be here for even one second of the tribulation.
Offline Richard  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:01:52 PM(UTC)
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Big Ritchie, Yah Tselem, you both make valid points regarding the so-called rapture. While I personally find myself leaning towards a dreaded certainty that we will endure at least some of the Tribulation, I am nevertheless encouraged and given hope by Yahushua's command, "And so, be awake and watch, stay alert and be on the lookout, ... asking and begging, beseeching and pleading ... so that ... each of you may be strong enough and able, powerful and be superior enough to flee, escape and avoid all these ... things that are about to ... come to be ... and so be able to stand upright and firm, steadfast and established, fixed and unmoveable, upheld and sustained, maintained and authorized in the presence of and in the sight of, in front of and before the Son of Man." (from Stephen Walch's amplified translation of Luke 21:36)
Offline Richard  
#7 Posted : Thursday, December 9, 2010 8:57:12 PM(UTC)
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In regards to quoting Luke in my above reply, let me mention that there is a reason to question the reliability of the things Luke wrote.

Because he was Paul's biographer and head cheerleader, and because Paul was one of the greatest of Yahuwah's enemies in all of history, I now consider it irresponsible to place credibilty in Luke's writings. That saddens me, because I have found his story of the birth of Yahushua to be a wonderful sledge hammer to use against the shoddy walls of Christianity's Christmas holiday and associated fables. Nevertheless, I must apologize for quoting Paul's steppenfetchit doctor friend.

Sorry, y'all.

Richard
Offline James  
#8 Posted : Friday, December 10, 2010 2:53:26 AM(UTC)
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Luke still has his uses. He was first and foremost a historian, so while his history may be slanted, it is still relatively accurate. I would not use it as Scripture, and would not use it as a basis for what I think, but he is still useful.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Richard  
#9 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 7:38:33 PM(UTC)
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James wrote:
Luke still has his uses. He was first and foremost a historian, so while his history may be slanted, it is still relatively accurate. I would not use it as Scripture, and would not use it as a basis for what I think, but he is still useful.


Well, lookee here, James. There then arises the tedious chore of determining which of Luke's writings reflect accurate history and which were penned as part of his allegiance to his master, Paul. For example, Luke reports that the Master Yahushua told Ananias that He had set Paul apart for special service to Him (see Acts 9:15). Really? Did Yahushua really say that? If so, then Paul was A-OK and we should believe what he wrote. But we know that Paul was not A-OK, and that means that Luke lied. Now if Luke lied about that, why should I trust him to have been telling the truth about anything else?

Do you see my dilemma here, James?

Richard
Offline sirgodfrey  
#10 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 9:07:46 PM(UTC)
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Oh boi
Offline RidesWithYah  
#11 Posted : Sunday, December 12, 2010 3:26:49 AM(UTC)
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I too have wondered what evidence Yada will find for a pre-trib rapture once he throws out all of Paul. Much of the YY sections on the rapture cite Paul...

I was debating a pre-trib rapture with a friend. I used examples of Lot, and of Noah, who were "taken out" before the destruction. She replied that they both went through those storms, they just had shelter. (Noah on a boat, Lot in a nearby city.) And then we did a word study on "indignation". It's a word Yah frequently used to describe destruction of the nations gathered against Jerusalem, pouring out his vengeance for our idols and transgressions.

Start your indignation word study HERE.

Here's one part of that, Exodus 26:...
Quote:
19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21For, behold, Yahweh cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

This seems to speak of the righteous being "passed over", yet witnesses to the destruction.

Just a little more food for thought,
Shalom.
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#12 Posted : Sunday, December 12, 2010 6:45:10 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
This seems to speak of the righteous being "passed over", yet witnesses to the destruction.


The righteous had judgment pass over them in Noah's day by getting into the Ark which was a shadow of Yahshua. Lot had judgment pass over him by going into a small town of Zoar, these are both shadows of the Feast of Tabernacles/ Booths showing we have safety in Yahshua. As far as being witnesses of this, we can look at Rev.14:9,10

14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath Yahweh of , which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#13 Posted : Sunday, December 12, 2010 6:53:04 AM(UTC)
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Rev.14:9,10 (amplified)

Quote:
And another Heavenly messenger and envoy of the Supreme One, a third one, accompanied and followed them, saying and teaching, maintaining and exhorting, advising and directing, affirming and pointing out in a great and powerful, mighty, splendid and strong sound, tone and voice, “If a certain someone pays homage and reverence, veneration, uttermost respect and admiration to the beast and wild animal, and to his image and representation, form and likeness, and does not refuse or reject, but takes and receives, accepts and acquires, obtains and seizes, procures and apprehends, selects and chooses, grasps and clings to, claims and admits the mark and stamp, inscription and sign, imprinted designation, brand, and idolatrous image upon his forehead or upon his hand, he himself shall also drink and consume, suck up and absorb from out of the wine of the wrath and anger, fury and intense rage of God*, the one that is mixed, mingled and poured out undiluted, pure and at full strength in the cup and drinking vessel of His anger and fury, temper and indignation, and he will be tested and mentally distressed and harassed in, by and with fire and sulphur in front of, before and in the presence of Set-Apart and cleansed Heavenly messengers and envoys of the Supreme One, and in front of, before and in the presence of the Lamb.


This seems to say they will witness from the comfort and safety in heaven with Yahshua.
Offline James  
#14 Posted : Sunday, December 12, 2010 7:08:11 AM(UTC)
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flintface wrote:
Well, lookee here, James. There then arises the tedious chore of determining which of Luke's writings reflect accurate history and which were penned as part of his allegiance to his master, Paul. For example, Luke reports that the Master Yahushua told Ananias that He had set Paul apart for special service to Him (see Acts 9:15). Really? Did Yahushua really say that? If so, then Paul was A-OK and we should believe what he wrote. But we know that Paul was not A-OK, and that means that Luke lied. Now if Luke lied about that, why should I trust him to have been telling the truth about anything else?

Do you see my dilemma here, James?

Richard


I agree with you entirely, which is why I would never use Luke's writings as a sole source, just as I would never use Josephus's writings as a sole source, or any historian for that matter. They are all colored by personal biases and limited by what they were able to gather.

RidesWithYah wrote:
I too have wondered what evidence Yada will find for a pre-trib rapture once he throws out all of Paul. Much of the YY sections on the rapture cite Paul.


I think Yada is still leaning Pre Trib, there is enough other evidence, the verses others here have cited, not to mention the promise to keep the Philidelphians out of the tribulation. One of the things that he has come to change his views on having removed Paul's teachings is the idea of a bodily resurrection.

it's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Noel  
#15 Posted : Sunday, December 12, 2010 7:21:47 AM(UTC)
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Personally, (although I am open to the pre-trib rapture being entirely Pauline),I think there is a suggestion that we are not to be included in the actual tribulation judgments. The rationale for this is that the tribulation is the judgment of Yahuwah on a thoroughly disobedient and unbelieving world, and not for those who are included in his family.

Also the pattern of the unfulfilled feasts. The sounding of a warning prior to the reconciliation and dwelling with Yahuwah. I think that as a very final, pretty desperate last minute attempt to get people to wake up and smell the Yadaoffee, he may use some of us to pass through the odd bedroom wall in the middle of the night and tell people, who have rejected our calls to them to come out of UR, but who may well be saved eventually during the tribulation, that they still may have a couple of days to change their perspectives.

This may be pure imagination, although I would not find it surprising if we are involved in the warning process. However I am on the other hand happy to be convinced that we, like Noah would experience it, although be protected from it -which would in itself be a miracle,

I just can't imagine being protected from some of the more cosmic events like asteroids etc wiping out huge areas of the earth. Stoning (which disobedient, oxen which had pierced people with it's horns) had to suffer, is a type of cosmic stoning by asteroids on the earth . Humankind pierced the Messiah, and it too will be stoned.

If we are actually here at the time, well okay. I guess we will just have to dodge the 100 pound hailstones too.
Offline Matthew  
#16 Posted : Sunday, December 12, 2010 12:04:01 PM(UTC)
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Leviticus 14:36 pretty much clears up the debate for me about whether or not the rapture is pre-Trib. Unless of course someone has a much better interpretation of the passage (Lev 14:33-53).
Offline Noel  
#17 Posted : Monday, December 13, 2010 5:29:45 AM(UTC)
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You mean that the priest shutting up the house and leaving it is symbolic of leaving the earth for the period of the tribulation?

I don't think I had ever spotted that one before. Thanks Matthew.
Offline Matthew  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, December 14, 2010 11:20:34 AM(UTC)
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Yeah. By the priest ordering the house clean to me speaks of those being removed through the rapture before the Tribulation. By verses 46-47 I see people who come to the Light (washing their clothes) during the Tribulation, they don't get raptured out but still have to endure the Tribulation.

KP refers to it quite a bit in TOM, for example point 568 of http://theownersmanual.n...l_15_Ritual_Purity.Torah
Offline Richard  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, December 14, 2010 4:30:03 PM(UTC)
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I am definitely going to have to make the time to read The Owner's Manual, or TOM. I have kept putting it off because I don't like reading long PDF files or multi-page HTML documents: that much computer screen staring wreaks havoc with my aging eyes. It would be nice if I could print out the whole thing, but that doesn't seem practical either (at least, not for us). Ah, the excuses I could come up with! It's time, I reckon, to just get it done. Since Ken's book obviously contains good teaching, I would be the worst kind of brat to continue to ignore that particular gift from Dad.

Thanks, you guys, for pointing all this out.

Richard
Offline sirgodfrey  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, December 14, 2010 6:23:08 PM(UTC)
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Oh god!! Richard please print out The Owner's Manual. I know its long but there is some priceless stuff in there. I can identify with staring at a screen for a long time and it hurting. PRINT, PRINT, PRINT!!!

Can you feel the pressure??!
Offline Noel  
#21 Posted : Wednesday, December 15, 2010 12:43:35 AM(UTC)
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There is also the passage in Isaiah which we all probably know, and that is

The upright person will disappear and no one will devote any thought to it.Faithful and loving men and women will be gathered and removed, harvested and received while no one perceives what is happening. For indeed from your presence the upright will be gathered together and taken (harvested and withdrawn, reaped from the winepress and threshing floor removed and received), away from the evil calamity (wicked rule of man time of perverseness misery crime and destruction).

This is Isaiah 57 1 .

n
Offline RidesWithYah  
#22 Posted : Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:38:26 PM(UTC)
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Richard, and others in his shoes,
I can help with the printing.
Just PM me your address and needs.

(I have some nice equipment for putting two pages on an 8 1/2 x 11 side, and duplexing, so both volumes of TOM fit in a 2" binder.)
I buy 3 holed paper by the case, so it really doesn't cost me much.
I'll even pay the shipping.
Offline Richard  
#23 Posted : Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:42:45 PM(UTC)
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RidesWithYah wrote:
Richard, and others in his shoes,
I can help with the printing.
Just PM me your address and needs.

(I have some nice equipment for putting two pages on an 8 1/2 x 11 side, and duplexing, so both volumes of TOM fit in a 2" binder.)
I buy 3 holed paper by the case, so it really doesn't cost me much.
I'll even pay the shipping.


That is one of the most generous offers I have ever received, RWY. Were it necessary, I would definitely take you up on it. However, I have an old Samsung ML-1750 black-and-white laser printer, and I finally took the time to learn how to place a printed page into the paper tray so that side 2 comes out looking right. I can print 9 pages at a time that way. The print pages field of the print window only allow for manually inputted page numbers and only as many as visibly fit into the field. So I print 9 pages (like 139, 141, 143, 145, etc.) in reverse order, then place them back into the paper tray and print the matching even pages (140, 142, 144, etc.). It's time-consuming, but it works, so I don't really need to exploit the beautiful generosity of brothers and sisters like you.

May our Father bless your socks off for the offer.

Richard
Offline VaBlueRidge  
#24 Posted : Sunday, December 19, 2010 5:50:16 AM(UTC)
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Noel wrote:
Personally, (although I am open to the pre-trib rapture being entirely Pauline),I think there is a suggestion that we are not to be included in the actual tribulation judgments. The rationale for this is that the tribulation is the judgment of Yahuwah on a thoroughly disobedient and unbelieving world, and not for those who are included in his family.
<snip>
This may be pure imagination, although I would not find it surprising if we are involved in the warning process.

Noel, I've been studying the End Times and trying to reconcile the timelines for the Rapture.
Regarding what Yada wrote about the rapture (edited for brevity):

YY Last Days Chapter 1 Paralambano (Accepted) wrote:
One: Enoch - harvest of the primarily Gentile ekklesia
Two: Lot from Sodom - removal of God's family prior to the towns' destruction
Three: Elijah - Yisra'el's return from Ba'al's Babylon, their restoration and harvest
Four: Yahushua's resurrection day - fulfilling the Miqra' of FirstFruits
Five: The pre-tribulation harvest of the ekklesia (fulfillment of Miqra' of Taruwah)
Six: The harvest of tribulation martyrs - coincides with Tribulation and Millennial Sabbath in Revelation 20:4.
And Seven: The harvest of millennial mortals - required as New Jerusalem begins in Revelation 21 and 22.


I have the following questions:
Where is Noah? Doesn't his deliverance from world-wide destruction count as much as Lot's?
Where is the non-Pauline basis for the Pre-trib rapture?
Which verses in Rev 21 & 22 speak of a final rapture?

It seems to me that the list Yada presented is a bit forced to fit pre-conceived (Pauline) requirements for a pre-trib harvest and a total of Seven harvests. I know that Yada later writes:
Originally Posted by: YY Last Days Chapter 2 Sa' Go to Quoted Post
We are told that the narrowing of Israel occurs in conjunction with a harvest: "And He shall (hayah) as the Sacrificial Lamb (zaroah' - arm of the mighty power who shoulders burdens, from zara', the seed which produces offspring, and zerah, to arise and to shine, radiating light) gather together and receive ('acaph - collect, assemble, and remove, reward by ingathering and withdrawing, fetch) the harvest (qasir - reaping the fruit from the chaff in season), collecting the standing grain (qamah - that which is upright and has the ability to stand and rise)." (Isaiah/Yahsayahu 17:5) This is the harvest known as the "rapture."

However, when I read the passage as a whole, it seems a bit of a stretch to use it as the basis for a pre-trib rapture position.

I believe our understanding of the rapture must primarily be reconciled to the teaching of Yahushua on the subject:
Matthew 24:4-44 wrote:
And answering, said to them, “Take heed that no one leads you astray. For many shall come in My Name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they shall lead many astray. And you shall begin to hear of fightings and reports of fightings. See that you are not troubled, for these have to take place, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and reign against reign. And there shall be scarcities of food, and deadly diseases, and earthquakes in places. And all these are the beginning of birth pains.

Then they shall deliver you up to affliction and kill you, and you shall be hated by all nations for My Name’s sake. And then many shall stumble, and they shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise up and lead many astray. And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved. And this Good News of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.

So when you see the ‘abomination that lays waste,’ spoken of by Dani’el the prophet, set up in the set-apart place” – he who reads, let him understand – then let those who are in Yehudflee to the mountains. Let him who is on the house-top not come down to take whatever out of his house. And let him who is in the field not turn back to get his garments. And woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing children in those days! And pray that your flight does not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

For then there shall be great distress, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would be saved, but for the sake of the chosen ones those days shall be shortened.

If anyone then says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe. For false messiahs and false prophets shall arise, and they shall show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones. See, I have forewarned you. So if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines to the west, so also shall the coming of the Son of Adam be. For wherever the dead body is, there the eagles shall be gathered together.

And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Adam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Adam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. A

nd learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that the summer is near. So you also, when you see all these, know that He is near, at the doors. Truly, I say to you, this generation shall by no means pass away until all this takes place. The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away. But concerning that day and the hour no one knows, not even the messengers of the heavens, but My Father only.

And as the days of Noah so also shall the coming of the Son of Adam be. For as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall the coming of the Son of Adam be. Then two shall be in the field, the one is taken and the one is left. Two shall be grinding at the mill, one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Master is coming. And know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Because of this, be ready too, for the Son of Adam is coming at an hour when you do not expect Him.


As you can see from the portions I highlighted, there will be persecutions by the anti-Messiah and the desecration of the temple PRIOR to the signs in the heavens and then the coming of Yahushua. No pre-trib rapture there.

The best teaching I have found on this is the PRE-WRATH rapture teaching that places the rapture between the 6th and 7th Seal judgements, prior to the Trumpet and Bowl judgements that are the outpouring of Yahuwah's wrath. The following book has been the best one I've found about this teaching:

Before God's Wrath: The Bible's Answer to the Timing of the Rapture One of the classics defining and defending the prewrath rapture. This book analyzes the prewrath rapture and how it stands up to today's popular pretribulation rapture teaching. In-depth analysis at the medium to advanced level. By H. L. Nigro, 360 pages, $18.95.

I hope this is helpful to you and others, would appreciate your feedback.
Yahuwah bless thee, and keep thee:
Yahuwah make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
Yahuwah lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

(Numbers 6:24-26)
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