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Offline edStueart  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 9:25:56 AM(UTC)
edStueart
Joined: 10/29/2008(UTC)
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Location: Philadelphia

If you are like me, it is good to see non-Yada, non-KP sources that are saying the same things that Yada and KP are saying.

This article is short and to the point: http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/vital/hellfire.html
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline kp  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 10:16:17 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
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Location: Palmyra, VA

Look closer, Ed. He still doesn't get it. All he's done is substitute door #3 for door #2, which doesn't solve the problem for Christians. The fact is, both "bad" destinations are possible, and both are discussed in scripture. Why can't "we" understand that there's a difference between destruction and damnation?

kp
Offline Matthew  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 11:04:00 AM(UTC)
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I was gonna say a similar thing, if he had dug a little further he would've got it. That guy says Satan will be destroyed.
Offline edStueart  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 3:44:39 PM(UTC)
edStueart
Joined: 10/29/2008(UTC)
Posts: 370
Location: Philadelphia

Harumph!

You guys are right.


Swing and a miss.

Harumph, harumph!
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Zeke  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, April 7, 2010 12:32:27 AM(UTC)
Zeke
Joined: 8/8/2009(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Birmingham, AL

Here is another replacing door 2 with door 3. I only had time to scan through quickly this morning but thought it was worth further consideration. I would be interested to hear your response kp. (or at least remind me where you've already covered it!)
http://www.whitehorsemed...icles/details.cfm?art=34
Offline kp  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, April 7, 2010 4:20:52 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Alrighty, then. I read (okay, skimmed) all of Wohlberg's articles on "The hot topic of hell." He obviously senses there's a serious problem trying to reconcile the love of God with the traditional "Two-door" theory---a heaven for Godly people and a hell of eternal fire and unceasing torment for everybody else. But because he never gets beyond our clumsy and often inadequate (if not downright misleading) English translations, he ends up blending the two distinct non-heaven pictures that scripture paints and comes up with "hell light," sort of a Door #2.4, if you're familiar with the three-doors metaphor Yada and I both use to explain this. It's basically like trying to cram three pounds of crap into a two pound bag---you're going to lose something in the process.

Wohlberg protests time after time: "I listen to the word of God, not to human opinions," but then he proceeds to lump everybody who isn't "saved" under the same broad heading---something Yahshua went way out of his way not to do, as witnessed by the difference between His attitude toward the scribes and Pharisees on the one hand, and the ordinary "sinners" on the other. To the first group, He said, "You brood of vipers: you're the spawn of Satan" (or something equally politically incorrect), but to ordinary sinners, He said, "Your faith has made you whole. Go and sin no more." There's a huge difference.

There's a reason, of course, why we seekers find it so hard to see the truth of the "three-doors" theory. Yahweh never wanted us to choose between door #2 (destruction) and door #3 (damnation). Rather, He wanted us to choose life, abundant and free, to joyfully take advantage of His Plan of Redemption---the gift He made for us from the foundation of the world. He doesn't want us to choose between life behind bars and the death penalty, or between lethal injection and the firing squad: He'd much rather see us walking around as free men!

Welcome to the forum, by the way, Zeke.

kp
Offline kp  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, April 7, 2010 4:32:17 AM(UTC)
kp
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Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Quote:
...or at least remind me where you've already covered it!


I covered it at the end of Future History: http://www.futuretruth.net/ I'd read chapters 28, 29, and 30---but especially 29.

kp
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, April 7, 2010 5:18:35 AM(UTC)
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Welcome Zeke :D
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Zeke  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, April 7, 2010 5:23:53 PM(UTC)
Zeke
Joined: 8/8/2009(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Birmingham, AL

Thanks for the response and the welcome kp. I remembered CH 29 on my way to work. Thanks for the welcome Robski.
Offline bitnet  
#10 Posted : Thursday, April 8, 2010 5:06:05 AM(UTC)
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Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

Welcome Zeke and it looks like you are having a great start. As to the destiny of mankind, let's take a different approach. Let's assume you are baking some cookies. Unfortunately some did not turn out right. Would you (a) throw them away or (b) condemn them to burn in the oven for eternity? If you believe God to be Love, especially as portrayed by Christians, do you think He'll choose option (b) for us? Why would a Creator make humans to live for a short time in the vastness of time and space only to see if they turn out to be good or bad, and if the latter, torture them forever? This has caused many "sane, intelligent" people to question the Creator and the religions that purport to represent His Word. (That said, those same "sane, intelligent" people should have had the courage to use their intelligence to seek out His Word instead of rejecting it altogether. But then again, we don't all have the time to seek out all the religions, do we?)

Being among the few who continue to seek Him and Truth in His Word, we have come to know Him by His set-apart and personal name and now understand His plan for us. But the sum knowledge is not all that important as it is our attitude that sets us apart: really wanting to know Him and wanting to change our lives to be with Him. How much we really know is irrelevant as long as are willing to understand and observe all that He teaches us. If we die before we fully understand the Torah are we lost? No. Knowing Him and accepting what He did for each of us and what He is going to for each of us, enables us to receive the gift of His set-apart Spirit. That is what gives us life. Our attitude and character eventually reveal our response to His offer. (If we are melancholic all the time would we want to live forever? Would we want Hitler and Attila to live forever? No way!) That is why the thief who was executed beside Yahushua was told he would be in Abraham's bosom -- he had repented and understood his chosen way did not lead to life but death. Unfortunately, he could not change as he was being executed! But given the chance he would have changed. That's what we would want for ourselves: a second chance... a real chance, and who better to give it than our Creator? Today we have this opportunity to be with Him sooner than most. We should grab it and not let go!
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline kp  
#11 Posted : Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:08:51 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Don't read and drive, Zeke :-)

Bitnet, I like the cookie comparison. Factor this in: Suppose we find out that a few of the cookies are laced with arsenic. We wouldn't just set them aside, 'cause somebody (like the family dog) might find them and eat them by mistake. No, those would have to be disposed of separately---carefully---so nobody could get hurt. Those evil cookies are headed for Trash Bin #3.

kp
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#12 Posted : Thursday, April 8, 2010 1:38:12 PM(UTC)
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Shalom Friends,


I was wondering if there was a difference between an immortal being and an eternal being. I think that a immortal being is one that sustained life to ones self and isn't dependent upon another for that life and can not die. Such as Yahweh & Yahshua. Then eternal life is one that is depended upon another to sustain life in them and that life can be taken away. Such as Satan & his angels. Can someone help me to understand this because I see Satan and his angels being consumed away by fire and completely destroyed by God. Theres verses that say that God will destroy them by fire and they will perish. Is there scripture that says that Satan and his angels are immortal or that they can't die?
Thanks,
Offline Theophilus  
#13 Posted : Friday, April 9, 2010 3:09:35 AM(UTC)
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TRUTH B-TOLD wrote:
Shalom Friends,


I was wondering if there was a difference between an immortal being and an eternal being. I think that a immortal being is one that sustained life to ones self and isn't dependent upon another for that life and can not die. Such as Yahweh & Yahshua. Then eternal life is one that is depended upon another to sustain life in them and that life can be taken away. Such as Satan & his angels. Can someone help me to understand this because I see Satan and his angels being consumed away by fire and completely destroyed by God. Theres verses that say that God will destroy them by fire and they will perish. Is there scripture that says that Satan and his angels are immortal or that they can't die?
Thanks,


Shalom TBT,

From reading YY, FH among other sources I do see a distinction between an eternal being and an immortal one, however there is some over lap. I'll use geometry to help explain how I understand the difference. A human soul and unite with Yahweh's eternal spirit and become immortal. Apart from being born anew from above (or below) in Spirt, a human soul is truly mortal and can be thought of as a line segment. It has a definite beginning and end in the case of door #2. Yahweh's Spirit is eternal and had no beginning or end of existence, so can be thought of like a line or a linear plane. A human soul that is born anew in Yah's Spirit can be thought of as a ray. Be born mortal but "intercepting" the Spirit, the human soul still had a definite beginning but has no end.

What I'm less clear on are the Spiritual Malakim (either rebellious or true to Yah). Created much earlier than human life, I tend to still think of them as immortal rather than eternal using the terms I used above. Also the sources I mentioned above indicate that these created Spirits being immorotal can be diminished and incarcerated, but not destroyed.

I hope that this helps.

Respectfully,

-Theophilus

Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#14 Posted : Friday, April 9, 2010 8:17:29 AM(UTC)
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Location: USA

Shalom Theophilus,


Quote:
What I'm less clear on are the Spiritual Malakim (either rebellious or true to Yah). Created much earlier than human life, I tend to still think of them as immortal rather than eternal using the terms I used above. Also the sources I mentioned above indicate that these created Spirits being immorotal can be diminished and incarcerated, but not destroyed.


That's the part that I can't get a handle on either, I understand that when man is indwelt with the spirit of Yahweh he becomes immortal because Yahweh spirit is immortal. I trying to figure out where in scripture it says that Satan and his angel are immortal. If they aren't it seems that Yahweh would have to sustain life in them throughout eternity, this would go against Yahweh saying that the former things would not be remembered. It seems that if Yahweh was the one that is sustaining life in them he would have to remember them. I did study the word destroyed and it can mean diminished or tarnished, meaning not completely gone, but it can also mean utterly gone or perished. Now in Ezekiel 28:16 the word destroy there I believe can only mean to perish or kill, meaning completely gone. I'm not sure if the "covering cherub" is Satan or not, but it seems to be. If so, it seems to me that Satan or atleast fallen spirits can and will be completely consumed in the lake of fire ( judgment ). Thanks for your response Theophilus.

TBT
Offline James  
#15 Posted : Friday, April 9, 2010 9:07:33 AM(UTC)
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TRUTH B-TOLD wrote:
Shalom Theophilus,




That's the part that I can't get a handle on either, I understand that when man is indwelt with the spirit of Yahweh he becomes immortal because Yahweh spirit is immortal. I trying to figure out where in scripture it says that Satan and his angel are immortal. If they aren't it seems that Yahweh would have to sustain life in them throughout eternity, this would go against Yahweh saying that the former things would not be remembered. It seems that if Yahweh was the one that is sustaining life in them he would have to remember them. I did study the word destroyed and it can mean diminished or tarnished, meaning not completely gone, but it can also mean utterly gone or perished. Now in Ezekiel 28:16 the word destroy there I believe can only mean to perish or kill, meaning completely gone. I'm not sure if the "covering cherub" is Satan or not, but it seems to be. If so, it seems to me that Satan or atleast fallen spirits can and will be completely consumed in the lake of fire ( judgment ). Thanks for your response Theophilus.

TBT

TBT, the way I see it, a spirit is immortal, and there for has a beginning, but no end. Man becomes a spirit by linking to Yah's spirit or another spirit, but because the Malak are spirit, they are immortal by nature.

If memory serves, they are referred to as spiritual messengers/malak, I can't remember the Hebrew word it wasn't Ruwach, but I pretty sure I remember them being described as Spirits.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
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