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Offline James  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:11:03 AM(UTC)
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Well I figure the book has been up for a while now, and people have had a chance to read through it, so I'm interested in hearing peoples reactions. So here is a thread for people to talk about it.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline edStueart  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:14:02 AM(UTC)
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In another thread Robskiwarrior wrote:
Quote:
As for the Paul debate; Yada is blinded by his passion and he is wrong on Paul's evil intent, he has not done enough research and has made a snap decision lots of Messianic s make. We can not trust Galatians and other of Paul's letters not because Paul was evil, but because he didn't write them. That is the only logical conclusion from looking at lot more of the evidence.


Here is my Quick and Easy How To Deal With Paul Kit <tm>:

1) Yahushua said and did nothing that was in conflict with Torah.
2) Rabbi Sha'ul should not have said or done anything that was in conflict with the teachings of Yahushua.
3) If anything that Rabbi Sha'ul wrote seems to be in conflict with Yahushua or Torah we must:
a) not be understanding what Sha'ul is on about (Keefa/Peter pointed out that this was a problem sometimes)
b) what we are reading is not properly translated and/or transcribed possibly due to tampering by Marcion and Joel Olstein
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline lassie1865  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:10:24 AM(UTC)
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edstuart -

I can't get your YY email to work, so I will post here.

Have you been able to share any YY with your parents? You said they were Salvation Army officers? Are they presently active in TSA? I have been sending email to the instructors at the College for Officer Training in CA, but I haven't received any specific answers from them yet about Tabernacles or the Name.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:48:12 AM(UTC)
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edStueart wrote:
In another thread Robskiwarrior wrote:

Here is my Quick and Easy How To Deal With Paul Kit <tm>:

1) Yahushua said and did nothing that was in conflict with Torah.
2) Rabbi Sha'ul should not have said or done anything that was in conflict with the teachings of Yahushua.
3) If anything that Rabbi Sha'ul wrote seems to be in conflict with Yahushua or Torah we must:
a) not be understanding what Sha'ul is on about (Keefa/Peter pointed out that this was a problem sometimes)
b) what we are reading is not properly translated and/or transcribed possibly due to tampering by Marcion and Joel Olstein



Yes I would agree :)

The only part I wouldn't agree in the QP sense of things is jumping on to the Paul was evil band wagon, we are meant to be on a quest for truth not one where our accusations might accuse a brother when the evidence points more to the fact that he was stitched up.

With an in depth look at supposed Paul's stuff its quite obvious - the idea is not to vindicate Paul of being stupid/arrogant sometimes or to say if he did write a letter that it would be of any worth to us let alone Scripture. But to say he was against Torah is for me falling right into the hands of the person who fabricated the letter in the first place. It's exactly what the writer wanted, whether they be Jewish Pharisee or Anti-Semitic follower of the way.
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Offline danshelper  
#5 Posted : Thursday, March 25, 2010 2:19:05 AM(UTC)
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I've read about 2/3 of QP. For me, I wish there wasn't so much personal opinion. I'd rather have the straight facts and have the freedom in my mind to weigh them out guided by the Spirit. The heavy personal opinion makes the process of weighing the facts more difficult and time consuming for me.
Offline Marcus  
#6 Posted : Thursday, March 25, 2010 5:24:35 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
As for the Paul debate; Yada is blinded by his passion and he is wrong on Paul's evil intent, he has not done enough research and has made a snap decision lots of Messianic s make. We can not trust Galatians and other of Paul's letters not because Paul was evil, but because he didn't write them. That is the only logical conclusion from looking at lot more of the evidence.


I don't agree I think Yada makes a fine logical argument. To say that the only logical conclusion is that Paul did not write the letter is not accurate. Don't get me wrong I don't think that Yada is inerrant but in the same paragraph you are calling him illogical and impulsive. When he took the time to explain logically his position with all of the evidence at his disposal. I think that if you are going to make a statement like that that you should back it up with your information that makes your conclusion the only logical conclusion, because Yada has stated why he belives Paul has written the letters and not scribal tampering. Why do you believe he has not? ? I know that this is an ld quote but now that Yada's position is out I don't see any additional evidence to dispute his position.

On the third statement of ed's Paul Kit a and b are not the only options c. Paul was not a brother, Rabbi that he was trying to create his own religion and separate Torah from Jesus(use of the word on purpose). That he was in conflict with the Torah.

With admitted lack of full evidence I won't be concentrating so much on if Paul is wrong or not but is the message of the letters in conflict with the Torah or not. Is not that the subject? Wether something was written by Paul or someone else does it make a difference? Non of us knew Paul or have a relationship with Paul. Non of us should aspire to be like Paul and who cares if he was wrong or right? For that matter who cares if he even existed? Are the writings consistent with the Torah? Is not that the question.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#7 Posted : Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:12:26 AM(UTC)
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Don't worry Marcus - there is a 56+ page document that will be available soon to back up any theory. :)

I don't say it in a bad way to attack Yada - we all are human, and I completely understand his reaction. But in this case I believe he has let his emotion mist the vision - and I hope he sees that as his arguments for Paul writing Galatians do not fit.
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Offline RidesWithYah  
#8 Posted : Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:13:55 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
With an in depth look at supposed Paul's stuff its quite obvious - the idea is not to vindicate Paul of being stupid/arrogant sometimes or to say if he did write a letter that it would be of any worth to us let alone Scripture. But to say he was against Torah is for me falling right into the hands of the person who fabricated the letter in the first place. It's exactly what the writer wanted, whether they be Jewish Pharisee or Anti-Semitic follower of the way.


I get what you're saying; but what gives me pause is the prophecies, and words from Revelation, that seem to be pointed straight at Paul.
Offline edStueart  
#9 Posted : Thursday, March 25, 2010 4:21:21 PM(UTC)
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RidesWithYah wrote:
I get what you're saying; but what gives me pause is the prophecies, and words from Revelation, that seem to be pointed straight at Paul.


Or perhaps they are pointed at 'the Paul that we know', brought to you by Marcion (and Joel Olstien).

Rabbi Sha'ul was a pharisee until the day he died. If anything, he would have been more uptight about Torah observance than Yeshua would have appeared to be. The letters that we have that are attributed to him are quite likely to have been tampered with and may not have captured all of Rabbi Sha'ul's entire message. Haven't we all dashed off an e-mail message (or YY posting) (KP) that really didn't correctly expressed everything in just the right way? The letters that were omitted from the 'canon' by the Council of Nicea may have been dropped because they sounded to Jew-ey for Constantine and Company.

I can read Galatians and see no conflict with Torah-observance for both Hebrew and Gentile followers of The Way, if I go into it with the presumption that the author was a Pharisee who was a follower of the Risen Messiah. If you start with the premise of "Rabbi Sha'ul", rather than that of "Saint Paul", many, many, many of the "difficult" passages in 'his' letters just melt away. Are his letters scripture, I think not. Are they useful, certainly! The difficult passages can be easily handled by my "How To Deal With Paul" <tm> kit (order one before midnight tonight, operators are standing by!) by saying "I'm not quite sure what Rabbi Sha'ul was saying here..." or "Perhaps this text has been tampered with, be cause we have NO record of him turning in his Pharisee badge and gun ever..." Anything else can be easily dealt with by referring to what Peter said.

To sum it up: There is a world of difference between Rabbi Sha'ul and Saint Paul!
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline James  
#10 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 3:35:48 AM(UTC)
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edStueart wrote:
Or perhaps they are pointed at 'the Paul that we know', brought to you by Marcion (and Joel Olstien).


Except much of what we have of Paul's writings, particularly the ones Yada uses in QP, are Pre-Marcion.

wrote:
Rabbi Sha'ul was a pharisee until the day he died.


If this is true than it is more damning than anything in QP, because Yahushua referred to the Pharisee as a brood of vipers, and the sons of Satan. Others mentioned in Acts are referred to as former Pharisee, if Paul never renounced his association with this group then he could not have been a follower of Yahushua.

wrote:
If anything, he would have been more uptight about Torah observance than Yeshua would have appeared to be.


I would have to disagree the Pharisee weren't Torah observant, they were interested in their Oral Law, not Yahuweh's Torah. Had they been Torah observant they would have recognized Yahushua for who he was.

wrote:
The letters that we have that are attributed to him are quite likely to have been tampered with and may not have captured all of Rabbi Sha'ul's entire message. Haven't we all dashed off an e-mail message (or YY posting) (KP) that really didn't correctly expressed everything in just the right way? The letters that were omitted from the 'canon' by the Council of Nicea may have been dropped because they sounded to Jew-ey for Constantine and Company.


The letters we have are all we have. It is all we have on which to determine what Paul taught. And again the ones we have all predate Necea. And since, at least that I am aware of, we have no other letters that could be attributed to Paul that predate this, and we have copies of most of Paul's letters that date to within 150 years of his life, pre-Nicea and pre-Marcion. All we can do is judge the letters we have and compare them to Scripture.

And if Rob, and Swalchy are right and Paul didn't write Galatians, then we should condemn Galatians, and review the rest of "Paul's" letters, and based on their contents decide rather to condemn them or not. All we can really say is the Paul of Christianity is wrong. Now if we can distance the real Paul from every letter that is attributed to him that has his teachings then great, the problem really is that much of the same stuff in Galatians comes up elsewhere in his other letters, but we should review all of them individually.

wrote:
I can read Galatians and see no conflict with Torah-observance for both Hebrew and Gentile followers of The Way, if I go into it with the presumption that the author was a Pharisee who was a follower of the Risen Messiah.


No offense, but what is the difference between that, and Christian's who read Scripture with the preconceived notions of Christianity, they have made up their mind on what they believe, and are finding Scriptural verification for it, and dismissing anything that conflicts with their preconceived notion.

And i believe "a Pharisee who was a follower of the Risen Messiah" is an oxymoron. To follow Yahushua, he would have had to leave the Pharisees.

wrote:
If you start with the premise of "Rabbi Sha'ul", rather than that of "Saint Paul", many, many, many of the "difficult" passages in 'his' letters just melt away.


Again, we should read the words as much as possible without preconceived notions. We have to look at the words he wrote objectively.

wrote:
Are his letters scripture, I think not. Are they useful, certainly! The difficult passages can be easily handled by my "How To Deal With Paul" <tm> kit (order one before midnight tonight, operators are standing by!) by saying "I'm not quite sure what Rabbi Sha'ul was saying here..." or "Perhaps this text has been tampered with, be cause we have NO record of him turning in his Pharisee badge and gun ever..."


I am in complete agreement that Paul's letters were not and should never have been considered Scripture. I would go so far as to say most of the RC is not Scripture.

I agree with Marcus your kit is missing an option. When it comes to something Yahuweh said then yeah it is one of your two options, but with Paul, as with anyone else we have to consider the third option, that that person was lying, mislead, or didn't understand.

I think your last point here is important. I think Paul really never left his Pharisee mindset, he continued to see things that way, and that is why he was wrong.

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Walt  
#11 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 6:14:58 AM(UTC)
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OK
I'm going to have a little go at this:

I haven't listen to YY radio / read the QP, so don't know if this is discussed

If Paul is a false apostle (which I can accept) - then Acts & Luke must be dismissed also.
Luke wrote Acts from the belief that Paul was sent of Yahuweh, and if Paul wasn't: Luke is not a reliable witness and what he wrote isn't of Yahuweh and can't be trusted - Luke has NO discernment.
Besides, Luke isn't a 1st hand witness to the life of MessiYah, or the early part of Acts, and never claims to have revelation from Yahuweh.

Now what is the result of taking this stand?

FREEDOM

CLARITY

All the "religion" aspects disappear from a searching for Yahuweh and His Truth: It's just about His Miqra’ey, Shabbat, Torah

The whole "church" thing goes out the window with Paul and Acts
The NT pastors, the deacons, the "gifts of the spirit" - the whole NT church structure VANISHES
MessiYah dissolved the priesthood and now we are ALL priests with MessiYah directly as our High Priest - there is no structure to come under
Yahuweh did away with the Temple made of brick & mortar and now we are ALL The Temple

We, as priests, reporting directly to MessiYah, we have the authority to do the Miqra’ey ourselves
We, as The Temple, are in the right place wherever we are in meeting with Yahuweh on the Miqra’ey

The whole "unity of the spirit" expectation: POOF GONE
The whole "led by the spirit" turning away easily (repentance)from your sin expectation: turns to dust

SOOO much source of conflict and division GOES AWAY
speaking in tongues (did Luke accurately record what he didn't witness without Yahuweh's inspiration?)

It's simply about:
Meeting with Yahuweh on His Miqra’ey to better understand His plan and way, wherever we are (void of religion's different corruptions and traditions)and if you can assemble with others: GREAT, but Yahuweh doesn't put that as a burden
Studying Torah to better know Him
Taking a break and resting on the 7th day (whichever day we reason that out to be in our life)

The detractors, sources of confusion, false expectations are no longer stumbling blocks or obstacles to be confronted

It becomes MUCH MUCH simpler and purer
SOOOO much pressure is released as the relief valve explodes


Offline James  
#12 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 6:35:44 AM(UTC)
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Walt wrote:
OK
I'm going to have a little go at this:

I haven't listen to YY radio / read the QP, so don't know if this is discussed

If Paul is a false apostle (which I can accept) - then Acts & Luke must be dismissed also.
Luke wrote Acts from the belief that Paul was sent of Yahuweh, and if Paul wasn't: Luke is not a reliable witness and what he wrote isn't of Yahuweh and can't be trusted - Luke has NO discernment.
Besides, Luke isn't a 1st hand witness to the life of MessiYah, or the early part of Acts, and never claims to have revelation from Yahuweh.

Now what is the result of taking this stand?

FREEDOM

CLARITY

All the "religion" aspects disappear from a searching for Yahuweh and His Truth: It's just about His Miqra’ey, Shabbat, Torah

The whole "church" thing goes out the window with Paul and Acts
The NT pastors, the deacons, the "gifts of the spirit" - the whole NT church structure VANISHES
MessiYah dissolved the priesthood and now we are ALL priests with MessiYah directly as our High Priest - there is no structure to come under
Yahuweh did away with the Temple made of brick & mortar and now we are ALL The Temple

We, as priests, reporting directly to MessiYah, we have the authority to do the Miqra’ey ourselves
We, as The Temple, are in the right place wherever we are in meeting with Yahuweh on the Miqra’ey

The whole "unity of the spirit" expectation: POOF GONE
The whole "led by the spirit" turning away easily (repentance)from your sin expectation: turns to dust

SOOO much source of conflict and division GOES AWAY
speaking in tongues (did Luke accurately record what he didn't witness without Yahuweh's inspiration?)

It's simply about:
Meeting with Yahuweh on His Miqra’ey to better understand His plan and way, wherever we are (void of religion's different corruptions and traditions)and if you can assemble with others: GREAT, but Yahuweh doesn't put that as a burden
Studying Torah to better know Him
Taking a break and resting on the 7th day (whichever day we reason that out to be in our life)

The detractors, sources of confusion, false expectations are no longer stumbling blocks or obstacles to be confronted

It becomes MUCH MUCH simpler and purer
SOOOO much pressure is released as the relief valve explodes



Well put Walt.

I don't remember who said it, so I can't give credit, but it was someone here who said, the Torah, Prophet and Psalms were all the initial followers had, and it was sufficient for them to know Yahuweh.

I think Yahuchanon's Revelation is a prophetic revelation, and therefore should be included among the Prophets.

The disciples were witnesses to the MessiYah's life and heard his teachings personally, so what they report is of great value to us, and should be studied, but it is not Scripture.

And if someone chooses to view Paul in this same light then it is important to take anything he says and compare it to the Torah, and if it lines up with the Torah great, if it doesn't then dismiss it.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Matthew  
#13 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 6:43:12 AM(UTC)
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One thing about the book of Acts though, it records the fulfilment of the Feast of Sevens (aka Pentecost), so if the book of Acts is unreliable then we don't have a reliable witness of the feast's fulfilment.
Offline James  
#14 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 7:13:47 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
One thing about the book of Acts though, it records the fulfilment of the Feast of Sevens (aka Pentecost), so if the book of Acts is unreliable then we don't have a reliable witness of the feast's fulfilment.

I think it is fair to say we know it was fulfilled, the details of Acts may or may not be accurate. I think Luke's views would have been influenced by Paul, but his information on the events at Sevens, would have been based on reports from others who had witnessed it. That in and of it self is enough to make you want to be careful in reading it, Luke didn't witness it, he merely wrote down the stories he heard, now he may have heard them straight from some one who was there, or from someone who's father was there, or a friend of a friend of a friend was. In all likely hood, he talked to many people, and came up with what he believed was the most accurate version, but again it is not perfect.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Matthew  
#15 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 9:21:34 AM(UTC)
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If legend be true, that Luke was a historian, then for his name and reputation sake he would want to be accurate, thereby not writing from his own understanding nor from somebody else's, but instead writing from the collection of accounts. He would want to verify the facts before putting quill to papyrus, unless of course Paul forced him to write his view.
Offline Walt  
#16 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 9:41:32 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
If legend be true, that Luke was a historian, then for his name and reputation sake he would want to be accurate, thereby not writing from his own understanding nor from somebody else's, but instead writing from the collection of accounts. He would want to verify the facts before putting quill to papyrus, unless of course Paul forced him to write his view.


I see no way to verify the trustworthiness or test the accuracy of Luke's research and and writing (look at many historians: it's more about their perspective and spin or about their popularity and acceptance than reputation)
So I can't let it influence my understanding, knowing and trusting Yahuweh

This becomes a "sinking sand" area
Add the "If legend be true, that Luke was a historian" possibility that it just a legend and not true

Offline edStueart  
#17 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 10:00:59 AM(UTC)
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James wrote:
The disciples were witnesses to the MessiYah's life and heard his teachings personally, so what they report is of great value to us, and should be studied, but it is not Scripture.

And if someone chooses to view Paul in this same light then it is important to take anything he says and compare it to the Torah, and if it lines up with the Torah great, if it doesn't then dismiss it.


Indeed, that is exactly how I look at "Paul's" letters.

Come to think of it, that is a good test to put to Yahushua's words and deeds!

(He always passes!)

(...and sometimes even raises the bar!)
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline James  
#18 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 10:54:21 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
If legend be true, that Luke was a historian, then for his name and reputation sake he would want to be accurate, thereby not writing from his own understanding nor from somebody else's, but instead writing from the collection of accounts. He would want to verify the facts before putting quill to papyrus, unless of course Paul forced him to write his view.


While as a historian he would have strove to make it accurate. But with the times in mind, he would not have had news papers, and records kept to go by. All he really had to go by was word of mouth. So he would have talked to many people, probably getting some conflicting versions, and then have to attempt to determine which stories were true and which were not. To do this, he would have to compare it to what he believed to be true, and what he knew. Having been a traveling companion of Paul much of what he knew and believed would be from Paul's perspective, particularly his telling of the life of Paul. so if he heard something that was different from his understanding, and it wasn't coming from a a source he viewed as completely reliable, he may have dismissed it, and vice versa if he heard a story that sounded like it was in harmony with his understandings, it might have been included when it shouldn't. The fact is historians are not perfect, they can strive to be objective, but they are limited in their resources, and influenced by their perspectives. I imagine a historian writing on a a topic so near to their heart, as this in all likely hood would have been for Luke, this is even more of an issue.

I would view Luke's writings much the same way as i would Tertullion or Josephus. i would probably give him a little more credit since he lived closer to the time and place of the events.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline shalom82  
#19 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 5:39:00 PM(UTC)
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Prepare yourself for yet another long winded post by shalom82
I think that there are some very good points made here but I was struck by what Marcus said very much. Who is Paul? Do we have to reconcile ourselves with him? Do we have to worry about our relationship with him? If his writings are not scripture do we need to worry about them? If they are confusing and can lead the the truster (as opposed to a believer) away then why agonize over them when we actually have the Tanakh and the accounts of the Messiah? It is sad to me because in the end, Paul really means a fiddle when compared to the great responsibilities and considerations that we as trusters must deal with. And here we are faced off against each other about Galations when we could be taling about Bereshith or Shemot (perhaps that is unfair, in a way we do have to hash things out but let us remember our agreements on what truly matters even as we do discuss this). The issue is whether or not the writing the content relates to and agrees with what we know to be true. As far as I am concerned Paul/Shauwl could be Harvey or Jack. He is in a sense Muhammad. For all we know Muhammad could have been a proto-Gandhi follower of the way whose messages were perverted 20 years after his death by his followers. I happen not to believe that but what matters ultimately is the message that affects us, it is the doctrine. Not the Man. If Muhammad or Paul were misrepresented then I would think they would be the first to want these deceptive and destructive straw men to be dismantled and burned on the fire of truth if that is the case they will be vindicated in the end and those who took down the falsehoods promogulated in their names shall have done their duty and nothing more could have been expected of them in that realm. If Sam is a nice guy and someone goes around posing as Sam and kills people and creates a doctrine based on murder and it is spread and the evidence is lost that this was not infact Sam at all...we still must deal with the Sam we were dealt. Long gone Sam is no worse off for us dealing with the mess that wrongly claims that he is it's daddy. Sam isn't in danger of Hell for us saying he was bad and we aren't in danger of it either when we must contend with an evil that can only be attributed to him. By all means if we DO have evidence that an innocent and more importantly truthful man has been defamed we have an obligation to do what we can to defend him. BUT, As I said I don't think Muhammad was a peaceful Derekhi in no way shape or form but at the same time I believe a fair case has been made by the materials available to us as well as tantalizing details in other books that there are some grave problems with Paul and that it was indeed the problem of Paul not a would be besmircher.

I have to agree with James on his take about the p'rushim. I don't see how you can call yourself one and be in haDerekh. I am of the party of the jewish dining ettiquete club and I don't think these rules really matter and can even be a stumbling stone. My Messiah said that torah matters and that the p'rushim don't follow it and forsake it and yet...hey...I am one! There is a conflict of interest. These are not groups that you can shuttle between.



Quote:
The letters we have are all we have. It is all we have on which to determine what Paul taught. And again the ones we have all predate Necea. And since, at least that I am aware of, we have no other letters that could be attributed to Paul that predate this, and we have copies of most of Paul's letters that date to within 150 years of his life, pre-Nicea and pre-Marcion. All we can do is judge the letters we have and compare them to Scripture.

And if Rob, and Swalchy are right and Paul didn't write Galatians, then we should condemn Galatians, and review the rest of "Paul's" letters, and based on their contents decide rather to condemn them or not. All we can really say is the Paul of Christianity is wrong. Now if we can distance the real Paul from every letter that is attributed to him that has his teachings then great, the problem really is that much of the same stuff in Galatians comes up elsewhere in his other letters, but we should review all of them individually.


Exactly!!! Spot on James I couldn't not have written it anywhere near as well as you or as concisely as you.

I agree with Walt if these books conveniently disappear our misery and causes for division are virtually gone. A new day of peace and unity dawns at least within our little fellowship...and doubtless countless others I have agonized over Paul and what I saw as discrepancies in his claims and doctrines and what was given to us through the Tanakh and King Messiah's words and deeds. I can't attribute it to misunderstanding or not being educated in the rabbinic mysteries enough or any of that. I can perfectly understand Y'aqob, Shimon Kepha and Yawchanan/Yahuchanan. I tried to reconcile Paul with a simple idea that Paul was saying not to put the cart of works before the horse of salvation but that doesn't explain all of the troubling passages and themes by half. BUT MOREOVER, once again we have everything we need. We all claim to agree that Paul isn't scripture and then we have these uneccesary doctrinal/practical back and forths based on Paul...TO SNIP OR NOT TO SNIP...THAT IS THE QUESTION!!!! why do we torture ourselves? As I see it Paul or if we are sensitive about it a writer desiring to be known as Paul was through deception/misinterpretation and misquotation/and novel and out of sync doctrine put in motion the schism in the Messianic community and set up the framework for what would become the "church". What I am interested in and perhaps someone can answer this is how much editing did Marcion really have to do when it came to Paul's letters.

And lastly a word about Yada. I have actually gained a lot of peace as of late about the issue of my relationship with his writings (which is something I have always agonized over and been very watchful about slipping into a form of idolatry or hero worship or whatever you would call it...which was an easy thing to do after P.O.D. and how that book came about) But I tell you I am relieved. Because honestly, Yada grates on me often enough for me to be conscious of it. That is no offense to Yada or anyone on this forum....infact it is a good thing....and that is perhaps what makes his writing so effective in the end...because it is what must endure and stand. I am sure there are people that I annoy and rub the wrong way on the forum and people who have been bruised or put off by my temper or presumptuous nature or holier than thou enthusiasm that accompanied me as a newbie when I came on the forum. Perhaps I am guilty of some of all of that in this post and I apologize in advance...but I digress...I don't agree with everything Yada says, I think some of his conclusions are wrong or at best wearying extrapolations. But that does not make me discount the overwhelming and inherent value of his work. I can't say I care for his ascerbic writing or speaking style all the time (though sometimes I love it) and I think he crosses the line sometimes to where it becomes unhelpful or counterproductive. On the radio program I cringe at some of the things that he says, I cringe at his temper and inability to let go of things that bother him, and honestly his language has sometimes given me a bad taste in my mouth. Is it a sin...no...but that is me...and it matters to me. He could come off as a know it all who doesn't handle disagreement very well for people that don't comprehend his passion. I also cringe at his pronunciation of Hebrew. Sometimes I don't care for his humor and wonder why he laughs at the things he does. And all these factors give me peace. I am left to pour over the man's work and see it for what it is and not what I want it to be based on how amiable the man is to my sensibilities. I come away with the view that Yada is a couragious and uncompromising man of integrity with much experience (that has prepared him for this walk) and one of remarkable insight who is on the side of truth the overwhelming....overwhelming majority of the time. He is a flawed man that has done something wonderful and is on the side of YHWH. Now let me explain before I hurt feelings or whatever else. I think that perhaps YHWH seeks out the prickly or what Yada would call the rascals for this very reason. We are left with what they are saying as the ultimate arbiter. If I find myself magnetized and awestruck by a person (wanting to like them) in a position that can affect my entire outlook....THAT is when I know it is time to be worried and be on guard. It is a diet of the mind that I believe many of us have honed....we are immediately skeptical of attractive, handsome smooth talkers and ear ticklers with enjoyable voices and nice clothes. And the overwhelming majority of times these people and their messages make themselves stenches in our noses, clothed in filth to our eyes and clanging cymbals in our ears. I don't think the prophets were these kinds of people....in fact, I pretty much know they weren't. They absolutely bugged the living daylights out of the people and constantly harangued them.....but hey....substance over style...those who can get past it are sure of the truth all the more because of who YHWH picks. So to get to the point....do I agree with Yada when it comes to QP...in both historical analysis and also when it comes to the truth and Paul's problem with it....yes I do. I do apologize Yada if you are reading this. I said these things only to make a point and infact a defense of the substance of your work and this is written by someone who is only all to aware of his flaws and yet also aware that he has flaws that he doesn't even realize he has.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline In His Name  
#20 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 8:03:40 PM(UTC)
In His Name
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Whoa, Dude how did you do that... get out of my head... that was pretty much everything I have been thinking the last few days.

Questioning Paul or Questioning someone pretending to be Paul, does it matter. It is the content that is in question and the content is questionable.

And as for Yada's sometimes acerbic nature, I gotta admit sometimes I hate to love him. But again it is the content that matters.

Good post S82.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline J&M  
#21 Posted : Friday, March 26, 2010 10:25:59 PM(UTC)
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Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

This thread so far expresses most of our views too. Thank you .

Paul is irrelevant to our walk with YHWH , but there is the possibility he can enhance our walk.
Perhaps he should be regarded as a commentary , his writing more as Talmud or Mishna.
In the same way as orthodox Judaism prefers the commentary to the text , it does not negate ALL value from it.

However, it’s like a brood of vipers hidden in it, which must cause one to tread VERY wearily. To those who are not ‘immune’ to the venom great danger and high probability of death(spiritual) await unless the antidote comes quickly.
We so agree with Walt that on the whole , spiritual life is easier without Paul. If the forest is infested with vipers , one needs a really good reason for entering.
Offline RidesWithYah  
#22 Posted : Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:27:10 AM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Quote:
Paul is irrelevant to our walk with YHWH


In one sense, yes.

But we live in a world engulfed in anomia. It's taken our mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, spouses, children, and friends. The letters attributed to Paul are the basis and the defense of the religion of anomia. Refusal to recognize Yahweh's authority, to trade the mark of His system of religious truth for a license to live like hell. The damage is astounding.

Jeremiah 16:19 O Yahweh, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Offline Walt  
#23 Posted : Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:22:33 AM(UTC)
Walt
Joined: 10/26/2008(UTC)
Posts: 374
Man

Another thought on Paul
Yahushua's command to His apostles at the end recorded in Matthew was to go make disciples, teaching them all Yahushua commanded

From what I see exampled of discipleship by Yahushua, this is all about relationship - deep, interacting, involved, impacting relationship

What was Paul about doing?
Spreading the "gospel" and planting churches - much more impersonal and hands-offish

Don't see that as harmonious with what Yahushua commanded
Offline AbiYah  
#24 Posted : Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:26:39 AM(UTC)
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Location: San Jose CA

Thanks: 1 times
Wow. I rarely post, but visit often and listen to all. I have had QP printed out for a week, and am trying to garner up the courage to read it. I, too, have had turmoil over Sha'ul/Paul and have become weary of defending the indefensible,taking stances of corruption by clerics, mistranslations. I know that false doctrine is mixed up with truth if you take the "bible" literally. I know when I finish with QP, I am going to have to pick through the body of my beliefs to find what has tickled my ears. It seems we find comfort in our foundation of beliefs and smugly pity the Christians for brainwashing they have endured. Everyday, we learn more and more, and change and evolve. It is most difficult. We are constantly having to do this. I will tell you that I discovered Yada at the height of my secular humanism core. I was lost in a quagmire of political correctness and tree hugging. I was lost in the fog and reached upward for that elusive "thing" that would fill my black hole of emotional need. Yada grabbed me by that hand and pulled me into the light. That was eight years ago. I sought out validation of Yada's beliefs and read everything I could get my hands on. Here I sit, eight years later and find him justified. You, too Ken. Thank you for leading me, educating me, and allowing me the opportunity to be saved by MessiYah. Remember, we admire our teachers but do not idolize them. If your heart is pure, then you will come to truth. Thank you all, brethren. Pamela
Offline Kelly and Shasta  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:32:12 AM(UTC)
Kelly and Shasta
Joined: 3/29/2010(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: Connecticut

We are so delighted that YY is not afraid to question anything in the Bible. We always felt that Shaul's teachings were killing our free spirit and were taking our innocence away. The tone of the writings never seemed to feel like a light yoke that we could carry while we pursued our relationship with YHWH.

How the cannozation officially happened would be an excellent topic for discussion because I think a lot of it was lead by the Adversary. Several other books don't fit with the overall message YHWH is sending to us.

So we have officially questioned everything Shlomo wrote and we are also done with him. Is there anything else in scripture like his writing? Is there any other author like him? It's no coincidence that all the pagan kabalists hold him up as their model- the grand sorceror of their religion. His life is one of the greatest tragedys chronicled in the entire Bible. By the fruit we know the tree.

The weight of the gold that Shlomo received yearly was 666 talents, not including [other sources of revenue] 1Kings 10:14. . . Why leave out the rest, just to get to 666?

YHWH's final judgment on Shlomo for building temples to every pagan god:

YHWH became angry with Shlomo because his heart had turned away from YHWH the Elohim of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. Although He had forbidden Shlomo to follow other elohim, Shlomo did not keep YHWH's command. 1Kings 11:9-10.

You can pretty much read any chapter he wrote and see that it doesn't sound like wisdom from YHWH. It's a lot like Paul, you get deceived when you see something that sounds great, then it's followed by something truly satanic or nonsensical. Here are some passages:

As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from the dust, and to the dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth.
So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him? (ECC 3:18-22)

A feast is made for laughter, and wine makes life merry, but money is the answer for everything. (ECC 10:19)

Do not revile the king even in your thoughts, or curse the rich in your bedroom, because a bird of the air may carry your words, and a bird on the wing may report what you say (ECC 10:20)


The most troubling of them all is Shlomo's lengthy diatribe on wisdom (Athena/Satan):

YHWH brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the foundations of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day, rejoycing always in the presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways.
Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it.
Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord.
But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death.


Notice that in my Bible, the He and His references to YHWH are not capitalized.

Who was the first created being of YHWH's creation?
Who would try to take credit for helping?
Blessed are those who keep my (wisdom's) ways- what happened to YHWH?
Offline Bridget  
#26 Posted : Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:48:45 AM(UTC)
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:)

Walt....I just think it's worth repeating...

Quote:
OK
I'm going to have a little go at this:

I haven't listen to YY radio / read the QP, so don't know if this is discussed

If Paul is a false apostle (which I can accept) - then Acts & Luke must be dismissed also.
Luke wrote Acts from the belief that Paul was sent of Yahuweh, and if Paul wasn't: Luke is not a reliable witness and what he wrote isn't of Yahuweh and can't be trusted - Luke has NO discernment.
Besides, Luke isn't a 1st hand witness to the life of MessiYah, or the early part of Acts, and never claims to have revelation from Yahuweh.

Now what is the result of taking this stand?

FREEDOM

CLARITY

All the "religion" aspects disappear from a searching for Yahuweh and His Truth: It's just about His Miqra’ey, Shabbat, Torah

The whole "church" thing goes out the window with Paul and Acts
The NT pastors, the deacons, the "gifts of the spirit" - the whole NT church structure VANISHES
MessiYah dissolved the priesthood and now we are ALL priests with MessiYah directly as our High Priest - there is no structure to come under
Yahuweh did away with the Temple made of brick & mortar and now we are ALL The Temple

We, as priests, reporting directly to MessiYah, we have the authority to do the Miqra’ey ourselves
We, as The Temple, are in the right place wherever we are in meeting with Yahuweh on the Miqra’ey

The whole "unity of the spirit" expectation: POOF GONE
The whole "led by the spirit" turning away easily (repentance)from your sin expectation: turns to dust

SOOO much source of conflict and division GOES AWAY
speaking in tongues (did Luke accurately record what he didn't witness without Yahuweh's inspiration?)

It's simply about:
Meeting with Yahuweh on His Miqra’ey to better understand His plan and way, wherever we are (void of religion's different corruptions and traditions)and if you can assemble with others: GREAT, but Yahuweh doesn't put that as a burden
Studying Torah to better know Him
Taking a break and resting on the 7th day (whichever day we reason that out to be in our life)

The detractors, sources of confusion, false expectations are no longer stumbling blocks or obstacles to be confronted

It becomes MUCH MUCH simpler and purer
SOOOO much pressure is released as the relief valve explodes




Offline RidesWithYah  
#27 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2010 11:46:47 AM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Thought this link was interesting and worth a read --

Paul's Herodian connection.
Offline RidesWithYah  
#28 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2010 2:17:13 PM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

OK, what should I know about Eisenman?
Offline kp  
#29 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 4:37:33 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

...And besides, you shouldn't take the word of anybody who came from Cal State Long Beach without really checking his facts for yourself.

(Inside joke: that's my alma mater---42 years ago now).

kp
Offline RhodaRose  
#30 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 8:04:43 AM(UTC)
RhodaRose
Joined: 4/6/2010(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Michigan USA

A search engine helped me find your forum and this topic caught my eye first off.
I have been studying Saul/Paul and about him for years and have seen some very interesting things on this subject. So this first post doesn't get too, too long I just want to "drop" a few verses and ideas I have on this subject:

Yahweh isn't past doing what needs to be done to get done what has to be done

Quote:
1 Kings 22:20-23 And YHWH said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before YHWH, and said, I will persuade him. And YHWH said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:19-22 And YHWHsaid, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before YHWH, and said, I will entice him. And YHWH said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And YHWH said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, YHWH hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and YHWH hath spoken evil against thee.


Yahweh has said He will send others to prove or test us:

Quote:
Deuteronomy 13:1-3 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams:
for YHWH your God proveth you,
to know whether ye love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul
.

Zechariah 11:15-17 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.


It has been questioned that there is no knowledge of Timothy ever being jailed because of this verse:

Quote:
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.


Timothy was never "jailed" but he was "held captive" by Saul/Paul but...

Quote:
John 8:31-32 Then said Yehshua to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in My Word, then are ye My disciples indeed; And ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free.


There is much more but for starters I will close here and look forward to your comments.
John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that Worship Him must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
Offline RhodaRose  
#31 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 10:18:58 AM(UTC)
RhodaRose
Joined: 4/6/2010(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Michigan USA

Sorry but His Spirit will not let me quit just yet but I will break this up into two posts for easier reading and understanding.

Quote:
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;


Peter points to the "longsuffering" of our Lord which Paul has written to us.

I checked out what Paul has to say about "longsuffering":

(also read before and after these verses)

Quote:
Romans 9:21-23 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make **one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

1 Timothy 1:15-16 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.


This is satan's second time at trying to make Job dishonor YHWH:

Quote:
Job 2:3-6 And YHWH said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. And Satan answered YHWH, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
And YHWH said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.


Saul/Paul says much of the same thing with the same limits that YHWH gave satan:

Quote:
2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

2 Corinthians 13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.


For edification. For "building up our house" -and not for our destruction. As long as we wise up and return to our First Love,Yehshua.

Quote:
Revelation 2:4-5 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy First Love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

2 Timothy 2:19-21 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; **and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.


and Peter follows up with this:

Quote:
2 Peter 3:16-18 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that Worship Him must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
Offline RhodaRose  
#32 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 10:25:56 AM(UTC)
RhodaRose
Joined: 4/6/2010(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Michigan USA

I have also read that others wonder why Luke ended Acts so abruptly and didn't go on to tell of Saul/Paul's last inprisonment.

Saul/Paul writes to Timothy:

Quote:
2 Timothy 4:11 Only Luke is with me...


...not knowing shortly not even Timothy would be "with him" and I am sure would be telling what he found out about Saul/Paul to Luke...

...and that is why Luke ends Acts without following up on Saul/Paul's inprisonment but like this:

Quote:
Acts 28:28-29 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles ** and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
** Jeremiah 16:19 O Yahweh, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Acts 28:30-31 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.


...two whole years- a day for a year (Nu 14:34; Eze 4:6) a day for a thousand years as Peter quotes the OT -so here Saul/Paul "dwelt two whole years" could mean two thousand years in his own "hired house" -had to be "hired" or "rented out" because our house/tent belongs to or is owned by YHWH ...Saul/Paul "preaching and teaching with all confidence" -no man forbidding him... till now!
See him for what he is -sent by YHWH to prove (Deut 13:3) and test us for our edification -but not our destruction. Repent and return to the Words of our First Love, Yehshua, our Salvation.
John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that Worship Him must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
Offline RidesWithYah  
#33 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 3:28:34 PM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Thanks for all the background on Eisenman.
Swalchy, I somehow missed that it was the same guy.
(I must be getting old.)

And RhodaRose -- welcome!
I sent you a PM, but my arrangment of notes on Paul are also linked here in post 146.

Offline bitnet  
#34 Posted : Thursday, April 8, 2010 5:07:27 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

What mid-life crisis? You're gonna get re-booted with new code!
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline RhodaRose  
#35 Posted : Thursday, April 8, 2010 10:38:32 PM(UTC)
RhodaRose
Joined: 4/6/2010(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Michigan USA

Not sure if this is the place for this but seems to be...

I have been reading through the forum and see where you have some going back to your past writings to pick and choose what has been quoted from Paul's letters to revaluate what seems to be not correct in the light of new beliefs about Paul and his accurracy (please pardon me if I have misunderstood this...)

Remember the Garden and the two trees in the midst of it? The Tree of Life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Did our Creator say of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "pick through it and the good you may eat but do not eat the evil" or did He say...

Genesis 2:16-17 And YHWH God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Matthew 13:33-35 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. All these things spake Yeshua unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

You know "the Kingdom of Heaven" is not like "leaven" so what is this parable really saying?

Do you not wonder why John's Gospel starts out with the same wording as Genesis -as the foundation of the world? Do you think he is trying to show a new start, a new "garden", a new Tree of Life and a new tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Yeshua is the Tree of Life and do you think there will not, also, be a tree of the knowledge of good and evil? If this "tree" were all evil you would recognize it rather quickly so it has "leaven" mixed in with the good -as the woman in the parable mixed a little "leaven" in with the good of the kingdom. Our Creator, our Father has said

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Do you think He has changed His mind? Or does He really know what is best for us?

Study this parable and decide for yourselves:

Matthew 13:24-30 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Before this parable this was said:

Matthew 13:10-17 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? Yeshua answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

How many of you reading Genesis and "the fall of man" think "boy if I would have been there I sure wouldn't have disobeyed and eaten of that one tree when there were others I was allowed to eat from..." I know I have thought this! But what if we where given another chance to right this wrong... would we still fail as miserably?

John 5:43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not...
...if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Deuteronomy 13:3-4 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your God proveth you, to know whether ye love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after YHWH your God, and fear Him, and keep His commandments, and obey His voice, and ye shall serve Him, and cleave unto Him.

..."this is a test -it is only a test..."

...for your edification and not your destruction... 2 Corinthians 10:8 and 13:10

John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that Worship Him must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
Offline James  
#36 Posted : Friday, April 9, 2010 3:02:51 AM(UTC)
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Rhoda, I don't think I understand what you are trying to say, could you clarify.

RhodaRose wrote:
I have been reading through the forum and see where you have some going back to your past writings to pick and choose what has been quoted from Paul's letters to revaluate what seems to be not correct in the light of new beliefs about Paul and his accurracy (please pardon me if I have misunderstood this...)

Remember the Garden and the two trees in the midst of it? The Tree of Life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Did our Creator say of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "pick through it and the good you may eat but do not eat the evil" or did He say...


It seems to me you are saying that we shouldn't pick and choose through Paul's writings, correct?
If that is what you are saying, then I think you misunderstand what we are doing, so I will try to clarify. In light of a recent study, Yada the author of Yada Yahweh has come to the conclusion that Paul was a false prophet, and therefore we should not base out understanding of Yahuweh or Yahushua on his writings. As a result he is going through Yada Yahweh and reevaluating every area where Paul was used, he is trying to determine if Paul's writings were the crux of the understanding, or just further additive to it. He is not going through and picking which parts of Paul to use and which parts not to.

Hope this helps.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline RhodaRose  
#37 Posted : Friday, April 9, 2010 6:04:19 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
It seems to me you are saying that we shouldn't pick and choose through Paul's writings, correct?
If that is what you are saying, then I think you misunderstand what we are doing, so I will try to clarify. In light of a recent study, Yada the author of Yada Yahweh has come to the conclusion that Paul was a false prophet, and therefore we should not base out understanding of Yahuweh or Yahushua on his writings. As a result he is going through Yada Yahweh and reevaluating every area where Paul was used, he is trying to determine if Paul's writings were the crux of the understanding, or just further additive to it. He is not going through and picking which parts of Paul to use and which parts not to.


It was a quick read and I didn't completely understand what you meant to do. I want to thank you for explaining to me more clearly what you are doing. You are right to say "we should not base our understanding of Yahuweh or Yahushua on his writings" but you go on to say "if Paul's writings were the crux of the understanding, or just further additive to it". Funny you should use the word "additive" because it brings this to mind:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

"If" going back through you are deciding whether Paul's writings are "the crux of the understanding, or just further additive to it" then you are picking and choosing.
"If" he is a false prophet, as you have come to believe, then all he has written can not be trusted. How can you say what he may have "added" to the understanding of what Yeshua said is truth or fiction?

Our Creator did not say "Eat of all the trees in the Garden but if they seem bland and leave something to be desired then spice them up by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..." -No, He said do not eat for any reason!

Why is there so much division in His Church other than all the "voices" given to us in the NT writings. If only Yeshua's Words directly from our Father were read and studied would there be such a division?

Add those writings of His closest Disiples who were with Him from the beginning if you feel they can be trusted because:

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the Kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

This always comes to mind and I am not even sure it fits:

Matthew 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Could it mean that the "first" of His Church were taught in falsehood that is so hard to let go of that the "last" who are starting out fresh and knowing what is known now are more easiably teachable in the right things? I don't know...

I believe that Paul's was sent to test and prove us "to know whether ye love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul". Does this make him a false prophet? Perhaps...?




John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that Worship Him must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
Offline James  
#38 Posted : Friday, April 9, 2010 9:13:44 AM(UTC)
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RhodaRose wrote:
Funny you should use the word "additive" because it brings this to mind:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

"If" going back through you are deciding whether Paul's writings are "the crux of the understanding, or just further additive to it" then you are picking and choosing.
"If" he is a false prophet, as you have come to believe, then all he has written can not be trusted. How can you say what he may have "added" to the understanding of what Yeshua said is truth or fiction?


I think you misunderstood me. By further additive, I mean is there a basis for that understanding other than Paul, and Paul's writings confirm it. By the end of the process there will be none of Paul's writings used to explain something. But just because Paul said it doesn't make it wrong, a broke clock is right twice a day. What the main goal is, is to make sure no understanding is based solely on Paul.

So when I say additive, I mean, we have an understanding based on x, y and z verse of the Torah, and a and b verse in Paul, a and b will be removed, but if there is an understanding only based on a and b, then it will need to be completely reevaluated and possibly done away with.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline RhodaRose  
#39 Posted : Friday, April 9, 2010 10:45:27 AM(UTC)
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Yes, I did misunderstand according to what you have now written. Other than I would say
"is there a basis for that understanding other than Paul, and Paul's writings are then confirmed by it" Since the object is to confirm what Paul has said and not to "confirm by what he has said".

Absolutely! -"just because Paul said it doesn't make it wrong" if fact he does say many right things or he would have ben spotted long ago and as far as I know he does represent the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... Much Wisdom and discernment must be applied in reading his letters. The only way to manage this is to study the Truth and only the Truth so you can discern between the good and the evil...

John 14:25-26 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is His Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You mention comparing the Torah (1st 5 books) with Paul's letters... you do use the rest of Scripture plus the other Gospels and writings of the NT also? Although I do stay away from Luke's writings somewhat since he spent most of his time with Paul and would have picked up on his doctrine. But, as you, I do compare Luke to the other Gospels and if I only "hear it from him" I am sceptical... Acts is another story since there is not much to compare it to other than the contradictions right in the same book.

I am here to learn and study and know our Father and His Son and Holy Spirit the best I can
this side of Heaven and I am so thankful to have others to reason with and not be put down
and shut off at the get-go. Thank You for your time and consideration in our mutual quest to be the best we can be for His Honor and Glory.

Shalom, Rhoda
John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that Worship Him must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
Offline bitnet  
#40 Posted : Saturday, April 10, 2010 12:56:52 AM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Rev 22:18 could be referring to that particular book only. The Tanakh was already formed and accepted centuries before. So this caution is basically against adding to or subtracting from this Revelation by Yahushua to Yahuchanan. We should not dilute the contents of the warnings and encouragement contained therein, nor embellish His Word so as to confuse people and turn them away from Yahweh. The timing of the book is also most interesting: it was given after the teachings of the wayward crept in. So in Revelations we have confirmation of the Tanakh and of the fact that others will throw in teachings that will draw people away from Yahweh and eventually lead to the End-Times in the near future. Are the Pauline epistles necessary or even required? The answer is obvious. What about the other letters and the eyewitness accounts? Great reading, and if it doesn't change the Tanakh and is in accordance with The Word then it should be considered a good testament of Yahushua and His followers and we should be able to learn something fruitful from them.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline cgb  
#41 Posted : Saturday, April 10, 2010 5:37:30 AM(UTC)
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If accurate, this link gives a good example of what is derived from Pauline doctrine while excluding all else. Considered one of the "church fathers" - Marcion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism

I think this is rather serious:

2Jn 1:7 Because many who are leading astray went out into the world who do not confess יהושע Messiah as coming in the flesh. This one is he who is leading astray and the anti-messiah.

Then Paul states:
Rom 8:3 For the Torah being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim, having His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh...

Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, and came to be in the likeness of men.

(Verses from ISRs the Scriptures 1998 editions, but read far worse worse in most english translations)

Oh what a trickster, here I thought he came in the flesh. Glad we have Paul to set us straight that instead he came in the "likeness" of sinful flesh.

Offline Walt  
#42 Posted : Saturday, April 10, 2010 5:59:20 AM(UTC)
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A general question

Are we going to base our fellowship / friendship with others on how we do or don't value the writing's attributed to Paul?

Shouldn't the greater emphasis be on how we handle & value Torah, Yahuweh, Yahushua & our Spiritual Mother?

I myself haven't made a decision on weather Paul is a false apostle or that his writings were altered/forged
I've connected with what Yada has said about Paul, but I'm also willing to listen to what those who say Paul's writings were tampered with (at a later time)

As I told some people here whom I greatly respect: "I'm putting Paul aside for now, I need to focus on the Torah, Shabbat & Mow’ed Miqra’ey, I'll pick him back up another day when I'm better positioned"

As far as when all is said and done, and we have passed this planet and life aside, and the "what if Paul is an Apostle" - he is not going to come up and say "false apostle huh" - he won't matter then, and what we thought of him won't matter anymore

WE WILL BE WITH YAHUWEH

Offline cgb  
#43 Posted : Saturday, April 10, 2010 6:13:41 AM(UTC)
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Here's a rundown of verses I use during brief tour concerning Paul. These are target verses, so read around them to get context.

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (KJV)

3 things to prove (besides establishing fact that Paul called himself an apostle)

a) Apostles plural. Did Paul mention other "apostles" who were not Yahushua's 12 elect? Romans 16:7
b) Church of Ephesus rejected him, as did all churches in Asia: Eph 19:9 , 2 Tim 1:15
c) A liar: Acts 15:20-21 and again in 15:29, versus Gal 2:9-10*

Then you have a good idea of how receptive this person is.
I should also look up the times Paul says OK to "eat meat sacrificed to idols since nothing"..in violation of the Acts 15:20 stop gap measure.
If someone objects because Paul performed many signs and miracles then use Mat 24:24-25.
Also detestable is how Paul claimed exclusive rights to gentiles, versus what Yahushua assigned to his elect. Mat 28:19-20
Offline cgb  
#44 Posted : Saturday, April 10, 2010 6:51:10 PM(UTC)
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> This isn't a defence of Paul by the way - I just despise people ripping things out of context, no matter who it is, or who it is about.

Thanks for clarifying these particular passages. I had found them after studying wiki articles on Marcionism/Marcion and wondered where he got that belief.

> Despite the fact that many of us have left Christianity, far too many of us are still thinking how Christians do.

Yes, I had been one for 35 years. Only 2 months studying validity and being convinced, and then only 2 months of deprogramming...with a long way to go.
A struggle for sure, but also amazing.

> Now is the time to stop.

Trying to, wish I already had years worth. Especially wanting to study and understand the Torah, something I had all but ignored.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#45 Posted : Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:33:44 PM(UTC)
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as a Christian cgb I ignored all scripture lol
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Offline James  
#46 Posted : Sunday, April 11, 2010 7:39:41 AM(UTC)
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Rhoda wrote:
Yes, I did misunderstand according to what you have now written. Other than I would say
"is there a basis for that understanding other than Paul, and Paul's writings are then confirmed by it" Since the object is to confirm what Paul has said and not to "confirm by what he has said".


You actually quoted me wrong there Rhoda, I didn’t say that Paul’s writings are then confirmed, I said, ‘Paul's writings confirm it.’ Meaning that Paul’s writings were used as confirmation of the understanding, not that the understanding confirmed Paul’s writings.

Rhoda wrote:
You mention comparing the Torah (1st 5 books) with Paul's letters... you do use the rest of Scripture plus the other Gospels and writings of the NT also? Although I do stay away from Luke's writings somewhat since he spent most of his time with Paul and would have picked up on his doctrine. But, as you, I do compare Luke to the other Gospels and if I only "hear it from him" I am sceptical... Acts is another story since there is not much to compare it to other than the contradictions right in the same book.


The Torah in my opinion is the core of Yahuweh’s message to us. The Prophets and other Writings of the Tanakh expand upon the Torah, in that they explain the Torah principals more in-depth. As for the RC writings, I think they are useful as historical documents, but I am leery of using any of them to base my understanding Yahuweh on, simply because the textual fidelity of the text we have is so bad. Personally I think ones understanding of Yahuweh can be completely based on Torah, as none of the other writings contradict it, and aside from expounding upon it, they don’t add.
One of my favorite verses:
"Yahuweh’s (YaHuWeH’s) Towrah (towrah – law and prescriptions for living) is complete and entirely perfect (tamym – without defect, lacking nothing, correct, sound, genuine, right, helpful, healthful, beneficial, and true), returning, restoring, and transforming (suwb – turning around) the soul (nepesh – consciousness). Yahuweh’s testimony is trustworthy and reliable (‘aman – verifiable, confirming, supportive, and establishing), making understanding and obtaining wisdom (hakam – educating and enlightening oneself to the point of comprehension) simple for the open-minded." (Psalm 19:7)

Walt wrote:
A general question
Are we going to base our fellowship / friendship with others on how we do or don't value the writing's attributed to Paul?

Personally I would say no. you are entirely right when you say,
Walt wrote:
Shouldn't the greater emphasis be on how we handle & value Torah, Yahuweh, Yahushua & our Spiritual Mother?


Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline PattyB  
#47 Posted : Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:05:49 AM(UTC)
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The thing that I find so troubling about the whole Paul thing and what makes him so dangerous is that most of what he says is right it's just those little important bits that he has totally wrong. One of the things that bothered me as a Christian was how many of them quote Paul more that any other part of scripture. He is also the reason why most all christians completely ignore the Torah and look at the law as a curse. I personally have no problems leaving Paul behind. (Though I must admit that I did like the whole armor of God thing)When Yada started this whole thing on Paul I though at first he just had an agenda against the guy but the more I listened and read the more it made sense. Our enemy is very crafty he slipped into the bible and placed something in it that would completely lead a ton of people away from the truth. He did this by replacing God's truth with his truth and understanding along with some reliable things that would make us think that he was inspired by the same God that we love and serve. Let us not forget that the adversary knows the scripture and would therefore know how to manipulate it. It makes me sick all the people that have been lead away by this. Now my goal is just to understand how I can better share with people what I've learned. I am not approaching christians with this stuff until I am fully prepared. It does shake the very foundation of their religion after all. Love this thread very informative. :)
Offline Matthew  
#48 Posted : Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:37:50 AM(UTC)
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PattyB wrote:
(Though I must admit that I did like the whole armor of God thing)


That Ephesians passages regarding the armour I think is loosely based on Isaiah 59:17
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#49 Posted : Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:56:09 AM(UTC)
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Again I must say - Please don't throw Paul out with the bathwater. The evidence for him writing the letters is dubious at best - its only Christian theologians who cling to these letters that try and make them fit anywhere. As you said Patty - Satan is a slippery dude, and in my eyes he's pulling down paul, where as paul probably had nothing to do with most of it.

Again, and like Swalchy, I am not advocating Paul's supposed letters in anyway or even Paul himself - but in the interest of accuracy and truth we need to look past the charade that has been thrown up.

No I would never take any of Paul's letters as scripture - I am with James on his view - and in the grand scheme for us it does not matter if Paul was a false prophet, a loon or even a goat - but accuracy and truth is what we must push for in everything, otherwise we blind ourselves to part of the picture. It's easy to call Paul out, but it's a lot harder proving he wrote the letters in the first place. In my view Satan wove in on 2 fronts and wins most of the time, You have the huggy one verse Christian types and then the people who read Scripture recognise Paul doesn't fit - and so instantly jump on Paul. When you look deeper than what is said you really open the can of worms.

It's never as simple as it looks guys - there is always a deeper motive...
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Offline bitnet  
#50 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 3:23:04 AM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Robski, it ain't Paul that's going out with the bathwater but the epistles that were supposed to be written by him. Er, someone told me once, "Hate the sin, not the sinner."
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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