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Offline jojocc  
#1 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:24:35 AM(UTC)
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A while ago I overheard a conversation between a Kariate Jew and a Messianic Jew. Both these people are incredibly bright and sincere in their beliefs, and spend a large portion of their time searching out the truth through study and through debate.

My Messianic friend was trying to explain to the Karaite that Yehoshua died for our sins as the Pesach lamb. The Karaite explained that this was not in line with the Torah, and that if Yehoshua had died ‘for our sins’ he would have been the Yom Kippur sacrifice rather than the Pesach lamb.

Most of you will understand very quickly what the Karaite was getting at here. Pesach and the blood of the lamb was not a sacrifice for our ‘sins’, it was a protective covering on our lintels so that the Angel of Death would pass over our dwellings.

Yom Kippurim, on the other hand, is all about atonement. It is about talking to YHWH and asking him for forgiveness for ‘sinning’ (which in my book is doing ANYTHING that is not according to his will and righteousness) and asking for his help in turning away from the path of man and to turn to the path of YHWH and Torah.

So the discussion ended and we all went home, but I couldn’t get this out of my head. It had never occurred to me in all my studies and all my strenuous thinking that Yehoshua had not died for my sins. In fact, that sounded a lot to me like blasphemy!!!

But the Karaite was correct, and I couldn’t deny this. So I spoke to YHWH about it, I asked him how it could possibly be that Yehoshua did not die for my sins, how could it possibly be that a fundamental doctrine of my beliefs was so confused and how I could get around this.

YHWH gave me the answer one day as I was driving to Be’er Sheva. I realised two things:

1) The fundamental doctrine that ‘Jesus died for my sins’ is from the church.
2) I did not have to ‘get around’ anything, my search is for the ‘kingdom of YHWH’, that place where his truth and his will are done, so MY ‘fundamental doctrines’ are not important.

Most of you have started a journey away from the church that labels you as anything from ‘makes us uncomfortable’ to ‘heretic’. As we get to know YHWH and start to honestly seek His righteousness rather than that of the church or even our own righteousness, we lose friends and we estrange ourselves. We also move away from many things that we ‘knew’ to be true.

We have turned our backs on Sunday worship, on ‘The Church of Christ’ and on many other things, and I am sure that it hurt/discomforted you as much as me to admit to myself that, “this just isn’t what it says in the scriptures.”

So can I accept that Yehoshua in fact died to have his blood cover the spiritual lintel of my home, that the Angel of Death would pass me over, that dying I will not die? Well, obviously the answer is yes, or I would not have even bought this up.

I have realised that there is nothing that I must not be prepared to examine according to Torah. If something is pointed out to me as being clumsy, or inconsistent, or just plain wrong, I must have the courage to ask YHWH for his righteousness, and to examine whatever has been pointed out to me in the light of his Torah.

Yehoshua was sacrificed at Pesach. The Pesach lamb was not a sin offering. Therefore one must conclude that the sacrifice of YHWH’s son was not a sin offering, rather a blood covering. Yehoshua was sacrificed to protect us from the Angel of Death.

We know that the Torah, and the feasts we keep according to Torah are all about a physical manifestation or symbolism of a spiritual reality. The physical Angel of Death passed over the Hebrews in Egypt, because they daubed the blood of a lamb on their lintels. So too, I have to paint the spiritual blood that Yehoshua physically shed on the lintels of my spiritual abode.

Did Yehoshua die for my sins? No, Yehoshua died for my life, and to me, that means a hell of a lot more.


Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:03:30 AM(UTC)
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Nice insight.

I see it more along the lines of Passover wasn't death for sin, but death for death. Unleavened bread is the removal of sin, something we can never do - its not dying for our sins, but being Yahushua's mortal soul being separated from Yah's spirit, paying the price we could never afford, and removing the yeast, sin, so it is no longer an issue. Then obviously First Fruits being the result of this sin handling process.

I don't agree with the Jewish day of atonement being that but more reconciliation - its the coming together of Yah and humanity before the jump into the 1000 year Shabbat. Being prophetic of the return in glory of Yahushua, something Yada I feel covered quite well with his Malachi (think it was Malachi lol) study around the time of the feast on the radio show - maybe it was after... I dunno so much has happened since then lol.

So yes, I would agree Yahushua did not die for our sins, but I would say He was separated/cut off for the purpose of payment of sin, as in its removal/covering so we can be made upright in Yah's sight.
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#3 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:18:11 AM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:
But doesn't pesach mean to let sin pass without consequence? Whilst Passover is certainly connected with the final plague, but the result of sinning = death, so if Yahushua died to stop us from dying, then that connects both death and sin together, therefore showing that Yahushua died to save us from both.

I don't think it's right to look at them as mutually exclusive things, but rather as things in conjunction.


well it was a process so yea I would agree :)
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Offline RidesWithYah  
#4 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:37:13 AM(UTC)
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Jojocc,

Never thought about it quite that way, thanks for posting this.
Somewhere in YY is a beautiful description of our sins being hidden from Yahweh's sight, along with the scripture to back it up (washed in the blood, putting on the white garments, etc.), that fits wonderfully with what you've described. Makes sense -- thanks again for sharing what you learned.

Offline James  
#5 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 5:41:56 AM(UTC)
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jojocc,

I think you have your mind in the exact right place, never be afraid to question something you can't back up with Scripture, no matter how "blasphemous" it sounds.

I aggree with Rob on this, Passover, was Yahushua being sacrificed so that we would be spared the consequence of sin, which is death, Unleavened Bread was him removing our sin and paying the penalty for sin, which is separation from God, and Firstfruits was him taking the Firstfruits of his labor, the first batch of saved souls to heaven with him. Then the feast of Weeks, the spirit came upon man, those in attendance became the first to have Yah's spirit cover them in Her garment of light, a garment so radiant and brilliant, that Yah can not see our sins, which are still with us. The Jewish idea of the day of atonement is way off from the Torah. The Day of Reconciliations will be when Yah reconciles man to him, it is when all who are part of his family get to come before him, and in it's fulfillment it signal the coming millennial.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline kp  
#6 Posted : Friday, November 27, 2009 2:58:55 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
My Messianic friend was trying to explain to the Karaite that Yehoshua died for our sins as the Pesach lamb. The Karaite explained that this was not in line with the Torah, and that if Yehoshua had died ‘for our sins’ he would have been the Yom Kippur sacrifice rather than the Pesach lamb.


They're both right, and wrong. What they seem to be missing is that every sacrifice mandated in the Torah is a picture of some facet of Yahshua's achievement of our redemption and reconciliation. There were offerings associated with every miqra: the all meant different things, but they were all fulfilled in the same Sacrifice. There were seven types of sacrifice delineated in the Torah, and they all pointed toward (and were fulfilled by) the Messiah.

1) The olah ("burnt offering") pictured the Messiah's total commitment. It was a voluntary sacrifice made for atonement, homage to Yahweh, and celebration before Him. Total dedication is implied, for the offering was to be completely consumed by fire.

2) The minha, or grain offering, was a memorial of the provision of all our needs by Yahweh. It began with grain, the bounty of the earth—that which sustains us in this world. The addition of oil symbolized the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our lives, and the sprinkling of frankincense onto the portion of the offering that was to be burned on the altar spoke of the purity that God would provide through the sacrifice of Yahshua. Because no blood was shed, atonement was not in view; but the judgment of our works—the separation of the valuable from the worthless—was indicated by the removal of the chaff of the grain.

3) The selem or peace offering, was always voluntary. It was offered as a spontaneous expression of praise to Yahweh, as a way to express one’s thanksgiving for answered prayer, to underscore the seriousness of a vow the worshipper was taking, or as a freewill offering to show one’s devotion.

4) The chata't, or sin offering, was brought by the guilty party, when he became aware of his transgression, to the priest to be sacrificed. Blood sacrifices like the chata’t speak of atonement for sin, for the life is in the blood. Ultimately, Christ’s sacrifice is in view, but the specific animals to be brought by the different classes of Israelites are instructive of how our position in this world relates to our sin and its consequences. Bulls (brought by the priests or by the congregation at large) indicate false doctrines that lead to sin and death. Male goats represent the sins of those in positions of temporal authority—who exercise human governance in this world—surrogates for the coming King. And female goats or sheep (brought by ordinary citizens) speak of failure to heed the counsel of the Holy Spirit.

5) The asham, or trespass offering, was a lot like the chata't, but it was to be provided for our “mistakes,” our offenses in holiness (as the chata’t covers our “sins,” our lapses in behavior). As we walk through this world, it is practically impossible to remain perfectly set apart from it (as Israel was supposed to be) or to fulfill our mandate to be called out from within it (as the Ekklesia is supposed to be.) Yahweh made us. He knows our frailty. He realizes that any perfection we have must be provided by Him, for it is not something we can muster in our fallen state, no matter how hard we try, no matter how much we would like to. That cloak of perfection is freely bestowed upon us through the sacrifice of His Messiah, Yahshua. All we have to do is put it on.

6) The nesek, or drink offering, was wine offered up in conjunction with any animal sacrifice, whether an olah, asham, chata’t, or selem. It would accompany the grain component that was mixed with oil, and there was to be the same amount of wine as there was oil. Although the Torah says nothing about what the pouring out of wine might mean, all four Gospels tie it directly to the blood of Yahshua that was poured out for us at Calvary. The fact that the same amount of oil and wine were specified ties Yahshua’s blood to the work of the Holy Spirit.

7) The bekor, or firstborn offering, indicated that the firstborn male of every Israelite family belonged to Yahweh, as well as the every firstborn animal owned by an Israelite. Clean animals (sheep, goats, cattle, etc.) were to be sacrificed. Donkeys (and presumably other unclean animals such as horses or camels) were to be substituted with lambs, or their necks were to be broken. But clean animals were to be eaten. The slain firstborn son was a metaphor for Yahweh’s own “firstborn,” who would be slain to save men from the consequences of their own transgressions, just as the Passover lamb’s blood was shed to identify those who were under God’s protection. The picture couldn’t be any clearer if God Himself had painted the blood on the upright wooden post and its crosspiece with His own hands. As a matter of fact that’s precisely what He did—on Calvary.

A careful reading of the Torah reveals that the nitpicking, bickering, and discord based on the fine points of Yahweh's Instructions that goes on between Karaites, Messianics, and even run-of-the-mill "Christians" is totally pointless and absolutely unnecessary. It's like one group insisting that the police car they just saw go by was partially painted black, and another insisting that it was partly white, and the third (not to be outdone) is convinced that the thing had four tires, no more, no less. Guys: open your eyes, you're all right!

This material, by the way, is gleaned from TOM, chapter 12: "Sacrifices and Offerings." The whole sacrifice thing was a mystery to me, too, until I went and did my homework. Yahweh is perfectly clear about what He's doing, but you have to dig for the information. The diamonds don't just lie around on the surface.

kp
User is suspended until 8/20/2021 8:53:19 PM(UTC) Greatest I am  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, March 2, 2010 4:19:44 AM(UTC)
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Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgment [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

God rejected the idea that man should profit from the death of an innocent man.

Why have you forsaken me,-------because vicarious atonement is immoral.

All are responsible for their own sins.

Regards
DL
Offline James  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, March 2, 2010 5:34:40 AM(UTC)
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Greatest I am wrote:
Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgment [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

God rejected the idea that man should profit from the death of an innocent man.

Why have you forsaken me,-------because vicarious atonement is immoral.

All are responsible for their own sins.

Regards
DL
You know that makes perfect sense, until you put it in the context of the whole of Scripture. Yes Yahuweh wants us to be just, but he realizes that we are all imperfect and can not, that is why he said MORE acceptable than sacrifice. Sacrifice is needed because we are not perfect. Just as the Messiyah's sacrifice was needed to redeem us.

Greatest I am wrote:
God rejected the idea that man should profit from the death of an innocent man.


Then you missed the entire purpose of the Messiyah. He was innocent and he paid the price for us, so through him we are redeemed, hence we profit (Spiritually) from His death.

wrote:
Why have you forsaken me,-------because vicarious atonement is immoral.


Please take the time to read Psalm 22 which is what this is a citation of.

wrote:
All are responsible for their own sins.


If this is the case then we are all in trouble. But sadly if this is how you choose to view it, then it is true for you, you will be judged for your sins, and you will be found guilty, and your soul will be mercifully put to death, as your sinful soul can not be in the presence of a perfect God. I have no desire to be judged based upon my deeds, I will instead trust in the Messiyah's sacrifice, and accept the gift of Him paying for my sins, and i am grateful beyonds words for Him doing so.

I pray you take the time to study His Word and the you come to know Him, and understand His plan for your salvation.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline Matthew  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, March 2, 2010 9:11:51 AM(UTC)
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Greatest I am wrote:
Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgement [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

God rejected the idea that man should profit from the death of an innocent man.


Same as James, the first thing that crossed my mind was a complete disregard for context. To love one's neighbour is more important than performing the sacrifices found within the Torah. It's more important to understand what they mean than to do them without understanding.

We didn't sacrifice Yahshua to please God, rather God offered His own life in place of ours, it's a different type of sacrifice. Many Jews reject Yahshua on the basis of believing it was a human sacrifice, but it's wasn't a human sacrifice, but rather a person willingly offering His own soul to face judgement in place of ours.

I like verse 16 "A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead."
User is suspended until 8/20/2021 8:53:19 PM(UTC) Greatest I am  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, March 2, 2010 10:14:02 AM(UTC)
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James wrote:
You know that makes perfect sense, until you put it in the context of the whole of Scripture. Yes Yahuweh wants us to be just, but he realizes that we are all imperfect and can not, that is why he said MORE acceptable than sacrifice. Sacrifice is needed because we are not perfect. Just as the Messiyah's sacrifice was needed to redeem us.



Then you missed the entire purpose of the Messiyah. He was innocent and he paid the price for us, so through him we are redeemed, hence we profit (Spiritually) from His death.



Please take the time to read Psalm 22 which is what this is a citation of.



If this is the case then we are all in trouble. But sadly if this is how you choose to view it, then it is true for you, you will be judged for your sins, and you will be found guilty, and your soul will be mercifully put to death, as your sinful soul can not be in the presence of a perfect God. I have no desire to be judged based upon my deeds, I will instead trust in the Messiyah's sacrifice, and accept the gift of Him paying for my sins, and i am grateful beyonds words for Him doing so.

I pray you take the time to study His Word and the you come to know Him, and understand His plan for your salvation.


Oh ye of little faith.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Please digest these two and see where it takes your thinking.

Do not think like many Christians and others.



Is God and His works perfect.

The way many Christian see God is to see Him screwing up heaven with evil.
Strike one.
They then see God screwing up man's beginning in Eden.
Strike two.
They then see God cleaning house in Noah's day with Genocide and starting over.
Strike three.
They now wait for His return at end time to clean house yet again.
Strike four.

Strike four?

God plays by His own rules I guess.

You and I both know that this view must be false if God‘s works are as perfect as scripture indicates.

To my way of thinking, God gets things right the first time and every time.

This is why He has not and will not return. His perfect systems are here today the same way that they were here in the beginning. He judged Eden as good.

It is just to us to see it. I do. Even with sin and evil and woes, all is perfect and humming along exactly as God wants it to. I call it evolving perfection.

Did your version of God get it right or does He need to return to fix things.

Regards
DL
User is suspended until 8/20/2021 8:53:19 PM(UTC) Greatest I am  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, March 2, 2010 10:22:53 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
Same as James, the first thing that crossed my mind was a complete disregard for context. To love one's neighbour is more important than performing the sacrifices found within the Torah. It's more important to understand what they mean than to do them without understanding.

We didn't sacrifice Yahshua to please God, rather God offered His own life in place of ours, it's a different type of sacrifice. Many Jews reject Yahshua on the basis of believing it was a human sacrifice, but it's wasn't a human sacrifice, but rather a person willingly offering His own soul to face judgement in place of ours.

I like verse 16 "A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead."


Only an idiot of a God would demand the death of his own son to forgive man instead of just forgiving him outright.

Why have you forsaken me is answered with ----because it is immoral to become a self aggrandizing scapegoat and to teach people that they can profit from the death of an innocent man.

God would demand that we walk proudly into heaven on our own merit and not on the merits of a murdered innocent.



That aside, I just got this joke.

A cannibal was walking through the jungle and came upon a
restaurant operated by a fellow cannibal.
Feeling somewhat hungry, he sat down and looked over the
menu...

Tourist: $5.00
Broiled Missionary: $7.00
Fried Explorer: $9.00
Freshly Baked: Conservatives, Liberals, Parti Québécois, New
Democratic or Green Party: $10.00
Buddhist $ 9.00
Literalist or Fundamentalist: $ 150.00

The cannibal called the waiter over and asked,
'Why such a huge price difference for the Literalist or Fundamentalist: ?'

The cook replied,
Have you ever tried to clean one?....They're so full of shit, it
takes all morning.

Regards
DL

Offline edStueart  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, March 2, 2010 11:07:19 AM(UTC)
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Greatest I am wrote:
God would demand that we walk proudly into heaven on our own merit and not on the merits of a murdered innocent.


Do you have some record of god saying that?

Greatest I am wrote:
The cannibal called the waiter over and asked,
'Why such a huge price difference for the Literalist or Fundamentalist: ?'


;-)

Pound for pound, the Buddhist would be the best deal: Lean, vegetarian meat, ya' know.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline James  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, March 2, 2010 1:30:19 PM(UTC)
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wrote:
Oh ye of little faith.

Damn right, I have zero faith. Faith is irrelevant. And before you grab your bible and stat pointing out all the time “faith” is in it, know this, the Greek word Pistis is errantly translated Faith. Pistis means Trust and Reliance, both of which are based on knowing and understanding. Faith is only necessary when you neither know nor understand.
And unless you mean I have little faith in the ability of man to be perfect, this is irrelevant to the discussion. But if that is what you meant then yes I have zero faith in man.

wrote:
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Please digest these two and see where it takes your thinking.

Do not think like many Christians and others.

I fail to see the relevance of these verses in the context of a discussion on mans need for a savior.
If you are trying to use these verses to say that man is perfect because God made us and God can’t make something that isn’t perfect, then you completely miss the point of free will, and until you grasp that you will not understand anything God has revealed. By your logic Hitler was perfect.
And if you would spend 10 minutes looking around the forum you would understand clearly that almost nothing here agrees with Christianity
wrote:
Is God and His works perfect.

The way many Christian see God is to see Him screwing up heaven with evil.
Strike one.

Again WE ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. And I’ve never heard anyone say he screwed up heaven with evil. Sin cannot exist with God.

wrote:
They then see God screwing up man's beginning in Eden.
Strike two.

God didn’t screw up Eden, Man did. Adam and Chava used their free will badly. They chose to diobey God, and they were removed from Eden, because Eden like Heaven cannot have Sin in it.

wrote:
They then see God cleaning house in Noah's day with Genocide and starting over.
Strike three

Well, how exactly do you take the flood? Are you one of those people who pick and chooses arbitrarily what part of God’s Word you are going to believe? God judged what man had done with his free will, and found them guilty, as such they were executed so that the few who choose Him, would not be endanger.

wrote:
They now wait for His return at end time to clean house yet again.
Strike four.

Strike four?

Yes, he has to come and clean up the mess we made.

wrote:
God plays by His own rules I guess.

He made the rules, we all play by them.

wrote:
You and I both know that this view must be false if God‘s works are as perfect as scripture indicates.

Unless you don’t understand God’s view of perfect, for him perfect is having a loving relationship with us. For there to be love there must be free will, and if there is free will there is room, plenty of it, for us to make a mess of everything.

wrote:
To my way of thinking, God gets things right the first time and every time.

He does we don’t

wrote:
This is why He has not and will not return. His perfect systems are here today the same way that they were here in the beginning. He judged Eden as good.

It is just to us to see it. I do. Even with sin and evil and woes, all is perfect and humming along exactly as God wants it to. I call it evolving perfection.

Did your version of God get it right or does He need to return to fix things.

I just love how you quote Scripture to suit your arguments, but dismiss anything that doesn’t.
God made the world perfect.
God gave man free will so that we could form a loving relationship with us.
We completely messed it up, and badly.
And for the most part his return isn’t to fix things; it is to enjoy a relationship with us. Fixing things won’t take long for him.


wrote:
Only an idiot of a God would demand the death of his own son to forgive man instead of just forgiving him outright.

Your ignorance of Scripture and your willingness to pick and choose astounds me.
God did not demand his sons sacrifice. Yahushua gave himself willing. Yahuweh knew that man was not perfect, so he built in a way to redeem us. He became one of us, then he lived a perfect life, then he took upon our sins, and he offered to pay the price for us. He did it willingly, and he did it out of love for us.

wrote:
Why have you forsaken me is answered with ----because it is immoral to become a self aggrandizing scapegoat and to teach people that they can profit from the death of an innocent man.

Again please read Psalm 22, the Psalm that the MessiYah was quoting when he said that.
And if that is what you see happening in the MessiYah’s death, than you are as blind as you are ignorant, and you need to as Yahushua would say Metanoeo, change your perspective, to that of the Torah. Only when you understand the Torah can you understand the MessiYah’s sacrifice.

wrote:
God would demand that we walk proudly into heaven on our own merit and not on the merits of a murdered innocent.

The entire message of Scripture is that we can’t get to heaven on our own, God did all of the work for us. All we have to do is Trust and Rely on his plan. And in order to do that you need to Know and Understand His plan, and for that you must study His Word, as He revealed it in the Torah Prophet and Writings

Edited by moderator Wednesday, March 3, 2010 1:42:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline In His Name  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, March 2, 2010 1:49:32 PM(UTC)
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Greatest I am wrote:

God would demand that we walk proudly into heaven on our own merit and not on the merits of a murdered innocent.


Yahweh demands nothing. He asks that we walk with him. He knows that we can not walk His path perfectly, so He provided help. It is our choice to walk with Him. It is His choice to provide help.

It appears that extrapolation theology is also pick and choose theology. Pulling a single verse and making out to be a command when it is a statement of preference is bending the fact; ignoring the message of the totality of Scripture for a single verse is blind.

What is your story DL?
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
User is suspended until 8/20/2021 8:53:19 PM(UTC) Greatest I am  
#15 Posted : Thursday, March 4, 2010 4:16:46 AM(UTC)
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edStueart wrote:
Do you have some record of god saying that?

.


If I need one for you to see the morality of it then it would not help.

If you have to rely on the words of someone who has been dead for 2000 years instead of your own logic then you are to be pitied.

Has your God not taught you to think for yourself?

Edit#1:

James

You think I do not understand scripture while I think you do not.

I gave you two to digest and you did not want to speak to them because they confirm my view and go against your views.

They are the logical position for God yet you prefer to show your God as a failed God instead of a winning God.

Oh well.

Edit #2:
In His Name wrote:
Yahweh demands nothing. He asks that we walk with him. He knows that we can not walk His path perfectly, so He provided help. It is our choice to walk with Him. It is His choice to provide help.

It appears that extrapolation theology is also pick and choose theology. Pulling a single verse and making out to be a command when it is a statement of preference is bending the fact; ignoring the message of the totality of Scripture for a single verse is blind.

What is your story DL?


You have God creating a make work project for himself with man.

Think again. God does not need to micro manage his perfect works.

Regards
DL
Offline James  
#16 Posted : Thursday, March 4, 2010 5:08:25 AM(UTC)
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Greatest I am wrote:
James

You think I do not understand scripture while I think you do not.

I gave you two to digest and you did not want to speak to them because they confirm my view and go against your views.

They are the logical position for God yet you prefer to show your God as a failed God instead of a winning God.

Oh well.

Regards
DL



I addressed your argument point for point, including the two verses you quoted out of context, yet once again you have failed to address any point made by anyone here.

You say they are the logical position, but please show me the logic in that position, because I fail to see it, in fact I find it rather illogical. So rather than just calling me an idiot for not immediately jumping on board with you, have a discussion, and defend your point.

So please do everyone here a favor, and either address the points that we make, explain your points and engage in a discussion, or leave and quit wasting our time.



Something that a good friend just pointed out to me DL. You say everything God makes is perfect. God made me. Therefore I am perfect. I say your wrong. If I am perfect, than I am right. But then again you are Perfect because God made you, so how can we both be right?

Edited by user Thursday, March 4, 2010 7:37:12 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
User is suspended until 8/20/2021 8:53:19 PM(UTC) Greatest I am  
#17 Posted : Thursday, March 18, 2010 5:49:11 AM(UTC)
Greatest I am
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James wrote:
I addressed your argument point for point, including the two verses you quoted out of context, yet once again you have failed to address any point made by anyone here.

You say they are the logical position, but please show me the logic in that position, because I fail to see it, in fact I find it rather illogical. So rather than just calling me an idiot for not immediately jumping on board with you, have a discussion, and defend your point.

So please do everyone here a favor, and either address the points that we make, explain your points and engage in a discussion, or leave and quit wasting our time.



Something that a good friend just pointed out to me DL. You say everything God makes is perfect. God made me. Therefore I am perfect. I say your wrong. If I am perfect, than I am right. But then again you are Perfect because God made you, so how can we both be right?


If God did not make you perfect then do you think He made you imperfect? Are you not one of His works?

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Those who base their logic on fantasy always have a hard time with normal logic.

Stop believing in fantasy and you will easily see that a God would be a winner and not the loser you see.

We are all evolving perfection.
Some have evolved further than others.

I wait for you to evolve away from belief in fantasy.

Do ye not know that ye are Gods?

The children of God all evolve just as God does.

Regards
DL
Offline James  
#18 Posted : Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:04:13 AM(UTC)
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Greatest I am wrote:
If God did not make you perfect then do you think He made you imperfect? Are you not one of His works?

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Those who base their logic on fantasy always have a hard time with normal logic.

Stop believing in fantasy and you will easily see that a God would be a winner and not the loser you see.

We are all evolving perfection.
Some have evolved further than others.

I wait for you to evolve away from belief in fantasy.

Do ye not know that ye are Gods?

The children of God all evolve just as God does.

Regards
DL


Isaiah 55:8 God's ways are not our ways. His idea perfection is eternity with those who choose to be with Him, and for that we must have free will.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Matthew  
#19 Posted : Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:26:29 PM(UTC)
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Greatest I am wrote:
If God did not make you perfect then do you think He made you imperfect? Are you not one of His works?

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Those who base their logic on fantasy always have a hard time with normal logic.


Think about it DL in the context you quote, for us to have free-will is a perfect creation, even when humans are in a position to do nasty things, like rape and torture people. We can only understand the true meaning of love because of free-will. Without free-will we would be just another regular species, with limited communication and not in a position to fully grasp being alive and what it feels like to love and have a family. Also, you must understand that with free-will comes the ability to choose between doing right and doing wrong. And unfortunately in the real context of Deuteronomy 32 His people were foolish and unwise, they chose to ignore Him, even act corrupt against Him. By their own free-will they had chosen to stand against God. Also, in context God's is saying He is perfect in justice. And a great example would be the millions of people who chose to ignore God and not want to know Him, in the end they'll receive what they chose, an eternity of not knowing Yahweh, meaning they'll cease to exist, having their souls dissipated into nothingness. It's a completely fair and just outcome of not wanting to know Yahweh, the Creator of the Universe. If you don't want to know God then why would He want to know you? He'll be sad that you chose to ignore Him, but in the end your choice is your choice.

Also, Yahweh is perfect, He has created the perfect way for you to be with Him, if only you take the time to read Yada Yahweh, Future History and The Owner's Manual you'll come to understand why Yahweh is perfect. I can assure you, if you make it through those books you'll have a completely different understanding of who Yahweh is, you'll come to understand why He is love and why the world have missed it and chosen to ignore it.

Also, logic states that one needs to fully understand the topic before making conclusions. For example, understand what's written in the original Hebrew, then understand the whole story and other related stories, understand the individual words used and why they were used, understand the story, who, what, when and why, etc. These steps unbelievers (i.e. Atheists) always miss, the love quoting out of context because it suits them, therefore unknowingly making fools out of themselves instead of achieving what they set out to achieve.
Offline bitnet  
#20 Posted : Thursday, April 1, 2010 6:24:57 AM(UTC)
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Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

It is evident from everything that happens around us that we humans are imperfect. To extrapolate that to mean that the Creator made an imperfect creation is to place our preconceptions before His explanation. To claim perfection in oneself is self-aggrandizement, and such pride has left humanity in the pits of destruction as each claims to be more perfect that the other. Without even needing to consider Yahweh's Word, GiA's reasoning is faulty as it is in denial of reality. I posit that he has taken the view that people are perfect and therefore have the sole right to determine their future for eternal life. Can you imagine the horribleness of this scenario if Muslims and Christians have the "right" to fight all through eternity because each thinks themselves perfect? Our life is temporal, and we need to prove that we deserve eternal life. And that is an incredibly tall order. So isn't it enough that our Creator has come up with a way for us to get there and that we need to make a little effort to understand and follow His directions? If a person cannot join an exclusive golf club here on earth and can accept it as part of life, why should he or she think that they deserve to be in The Most Exclusive Family?
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline bigritchie  
#21 Posted : Friday, April 16, 2010 2:29:48 PM(UTC)
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Here is something I wrote to some Jewish friends in regards to "Human Sacrifice" and the objections to Messiah on the Execution stake. I try my best to take the religion out of things and place it in a common sense view where people can relate to it. This is how I present the subject.

Today I wanted to address one of the major reasons many of my Jewish friends in Israel and around the world reject Yahushua of Nazareth being the Messiah.

(besides of course the utter paganism that is taught in Christianity, which is utterly condemned by the “New” Covenant, which is the Torah of Moshe written upon our hearts)

Many Jewish people reject the idea of the Messiah being a “Human Sacrifice”, because as they well know, Human Sacrifice is forbidden in the Torah.

What I want to do, if you would allow me, is to strip away they religious aspects of this event for a moment. I want to look at the event from a common sense point of view, and hopefully place this in a way that will make sense to anyone.

I want to address an issue that those people who are familiar with the military can appreciate. Those of us who have been to war or saw combat can relate to.

My Jewish friends let me ask you something: I want to speak of a sensitive subject so please bear with me.

I want you to clear your mind and imagine something for me.

I want you to imagine a care center for children in Jerusalem I want you to imagine that those are your children, your neighbor’s children. I want you to imagine the smiles and laughter of these children as they play.

I want you to imagine a man standing with them, keeping them safe. This man is a reservist in the IDF.

Now imagine a terrorist running in and tossing a grenade into the mist of those children.

Now imagine that IDF reservist jumping on that grenade, sacrificing his life so that those 20 precious children can live. This man “sacrificed his life” to save 20 other lives. He laid down his life willingly to save those precious children. In the Military we speak of those heroes that do things like this in awe! We consider them the bravest, most honorable, most heroic men we could imagine!

Even though “Human Sacrifice” is forbidden in the Torah, I do not think anyone would ever accuse that brave man who saved 20 children by laying his life down and having his body ripped to shreds by the grenade to have broken the Torah!
Now My friends, I would like you to imagine Yahushua of Nazareth, who upheld the Torah of Moshe, who kept the feast of YHWH, who ordered his followers to do and teach the least of the 5 books of Moshe, JUMPING ON THE GRENADE FOR THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE.

The act of laying ones life down so that other may live, is the highest act of heroism known to mankind. Yahushua did not break the Torah, HE BECAME THE GREATEST HERO OF MANKIND, WHEN HE JUMPED ON THAT GRENADE FOR US ALL
Offline kp  
#22 Posted : Friday, April 16, 2010 5:15:43 PM(UTC)
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Beautifully stated, Bigrichie (and by the way, welcome to the forum).

You could take the illustration even further, of course. Say the terrorist is actually a suicide bomber bent on blowing the place up, and the IDF hero takes him down and shields everyone from the blast, sacrificing himself. What's the difference between the terrorist and the defender? The terrorist is willing to sacrifice himself based on an act of worship to a false god, Allah. He is sincere, dedicated, and devout---but also deluded, foolish, and doomed to disappointment, for the promises he believes his god made are actually lies from the lips of the prophet who told them to gain gullible followers hungry for booty and virgins in paradise. He is the equivalent of the Molech worshiper who makes his children pass through the fire, so vehemently denounced in the Torah.

What's the difference between him and the IDF hero? Both are now dead. Both of them are technically suicides. Each of them were following the precepts of his God as they understood them. The difference is that the God of Israel is real, and the god of Islam is a fraud. We should remember that Abraham was ready and willing to sacrifice his son Isaac, and Isaac was willing to let him, for both trusted Yahweh to fulfill his covenant promise, no matter what. They were convinced that not even death could prevent Yahweh's promise from being fulfilled.

What one lives for is no less significant that what one is willing to die for. We must examine our beliefs, question our motives, and be honest with ourselves: is our God the real thing? If He is, He's worth dying for. If not, He's not even worth giving lip service to.

kp
Offline J&M  
#23 Posted : Saturday, April 17, 2010 3:57:27 AM(UTC)
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Jehushua was arrested by soldiers, having demonstrated, using "I am who I am", that he was coming willingly, albeit having the power to anahilate them. He allowed himself to be arrested. He did not in any way commit suicide. He was judicially murdered, the Roman Procurator had found him not guilty.

This is the same as a 'wanted' man who turns himself in, trusting in the Justice system for equity, and which is the duty of any good citizen.

The Rabbis (around 70 AD) needed to build a case against Yehushua in order th justify their own existance, and to diffuse the enormous power of the Messianic prophesies concerning the destruction of the temple which had so recently come to pass.

To portray Yehushua as a 'human sacrifice' was in fact a semantic 'red herring' of which there are many in orthadox Judaism. Rabbis have been 'spin doctoring' the scriptures for two thousand years, at one point claiming Isaiah 53 was not even part of scripture.

There are two objects to this, first was (and is) to keep Rabbis employed and well fed, they are of course, the creation of their own spin and have no real scriptual authority. Secondly, linked to the first, was to keep the true meaning of Torah obscure, and to provide a religion based upon circular arguments, a religion which they could control.

As a result Jews do not read their own scripture, they tend to read the perverted commentary of scripture provided by Rabbis.

Personally, I think Messiah did die for our sins, but he also died for the cause of our sin, he died so that Mum (Holy Spirit) could cleanse the mess left by the fall, our sin having been dealt with, there is no longer any blockage (except free will)to Mum doing the washing and scrubbing, to purge my knowledge of good and evil and thus my godship, to effectively change my spiritual nappy (daiper).

It is my godship, inherited through my natural fathers going back to Adam which causes everything I do to be sin. When I am born from woman, I have in me a 'godship' as the serpent tells us and confirmed by YHWH (Gen 3:22). But it is a godship based upon my own physical observation of the world around me, my knowledge of good and evil. Everytime I use it, I sin because I break the first commandment, I put my godship before His Godship.

Once I am truly 'born from above' by keeping the Miqra, by going through the bloody portals of pesach, my godship is negated, YHWH sees only the blood of Yehushua covering me. He can then work with me in my life in the physical realm towards the point where I become an 'overcomer' of the fall.
Offline Richard  
#24 Posted : Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:51:11 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: J& Go to Quoted Post
...

The Rabbis (around 70 AD) needed to build a case against Yehushua in order th justify their own existance, and to diffuse the enormous power of the Messianic prophesies concerning the destruction of the temple which had so recently come to pass.

To portray Yehushua as a 'human sacrifice' was in fact a semantic 'red herring' of which there are many in orthadox Judaism. Rabbis have been 'spin doctoring' the scriptures for two thousand years, at one point claiming Isaiah 53 was not even part of scripture.

There are two objects to this, first was (and is) to keep Rabbis employed and well fed, they are of course, the creation of their own spin and have no real scriptual authority. Secondly, linked to the first, was to keep the true meaning of Torah obscure, and to provide a religion based upon circular arguments, a religion which they could control.

As a result Jews do not read their own scripture, they tend to read the perverted commentary of scripture provided by Rabbis.


Thank you, J&M.

I was contacted a few months ago by a lady who was bent on taking me to task for believing that Yahushua gave His life for my sins, and she based her position on the "semantic 'red herring' " to which you alluded in your post. I appreciate your exposing the little bit of history behind that teaching.

Yahushua taught us that, "Nobody has greater love than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you." Was He not letting us know that His death was to be a willing act on our behalf? Being Yahuweh, He knew the grenade was set to go off and that He was going to protect us from its deadly effects. He shared that knowledge with us throughout the tanakh. Then He uttered the foregoing statement in the flesh to drive home His point.

I am grateful to everyone here who has taken of their time to share the results of their ongoing study of Yahuweh's Word and ways with the rest of us.

Ever your servant in Yahushua, the Beneficial and Useful Implement of Yah,

Richard
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