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Offline Matthew  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, October 28, 2009 11:30:16 AM(UTC)
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I recently watched a video by Lee Strobel called The Case for Christ, which I thought was pretty good. I also recently came across a guy called Simon Greenleaf (founder of Harvard Law School) who wrote a book called "The Testimony of the Evangelists Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice" or simply "The Testimony of the Evangelists." Check WIKI out.

Has anyone actually read Strobel's and Greenleaf's works, and responses? Are there any other guys out there that make a serious stand for Yahshua that Atheists would find hard to object against?
Offline In His Name  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, October 28, 2009 12:42:49 PM(UTC)
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Hi Matthew,

I think athiests will argue about anything. It is my understanding they have (in their minds) discredited these works as they will any attempt at apologetics.

They are not ready or willing to 'think differently'.

Never-the-less, I have found this former athiests works to be compelling (I was thinking differently however). Randall Niles
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline edStueart  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, October 28, 2009 2:40:52 PM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
"The Testimony of the Evangelists Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice"


Great book! I've given away several copies over the years.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Theophilus  
#4 Posted : Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:46:19 PM(UTC)
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I also saw the video of the "Case for Christ." I realized that there are practical limits as to what can be covered in such a presentation, but thought it was a better than I expected. I'd already read a number of books by the author to include the "Case for the Real Jesus", so I had a good idea as to what might be covered.

I've heard good things about Greenleaf and his book, and found it available to view freely online. Unfortunately, I didn't make it far enough into it to say myself. Since Ed also recommends it, I'll have to take another look, once I clear my reading list.
Offline Walt  
#5 Posted : Friday, October 30, 2009 4:47:23 AM(UTC)
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The Case For Christ is good as long as you accept Jesus Christ is God and christianity is the path to eternal life, and the church is God's people.

There is to much unprogramming that would have to be done for anyone that is not firmly rooted in Yahuweh's Truth.

Give a seeker that direction to go, then try to tell them that jesus isn't His name, that Torah is still a part of the believer's life, that Yahuweh's Feasts are still applicable, and you will have a state of confusion.

Offline edStueart  
#6 Posted : Friday, October 30, 2009 9:15:14 AM(UTC)
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You can find an online copy of Greenleaf here.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline edStueart  
#7 Posted : Monday, November 2, 2009 10:18:27 AM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:
What Walt has said here. I actually have a copy of The Case for Christ on my bookshelf (hey, some of us went through a mass Christian-book-buying phase), and I'll admit that it is certainly well written, but from a very, very Christian perspective, but Strobel did his homework definitely.



Same for "The Evidence for Jesus" by James Dunn.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Theophilus  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, November 3, 2009 7:15:42 AM(UTC)
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edStueart wrote:
You can find an online copy of Greenleaf here.


Thank you for sharing the link Ed. I thought that it was on-line and look forward to reading through it soon.

-Theophilus
Offline Theophilus  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, November 3, 2009 7:20:59 AM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:
What Walt has said here. I actually have a copy of The Case for Christ on my bookshelf (hey, some of us went through a mass Christian-book-buying phase), and I'll admit that it is certainly well written, but from a very, very Christian perspective, but Strobel did his homework definitely.


Swalchy, I agree with you on this and it is part of the reason I haven't completely removed my Christian book collection from when I was also in that phase. Some of the information in these is still useful in context, but to Walt's point, they are very likely to confuse a seeker of Yahweh when contrasted with YY.

-Theophilus
Offline Walt  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, November 4, 2009 2:35:55 AM(UTC)
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Don't attach any value to what I've said, I'm way to opinionated about things and need to learn to keep them to myself.

There are toooo many voices crying out "this is the path to truth" for me to weigh in.

I'm sure Strobel is a good sincere man just trying to help people out, and that's what matters.

Offline Walt  
#11 Posted : Saturday, November 7, 2009 3:15:29 AM(UTC)
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I'm sorry about my attitude above, it gets confusing here at times.
I hear on YY radio about how wrong christianity is, then see it defended and praised.

Either it's a false religion that leads people away from the true Creator, or it's a path towards truth - I can't see it as both.

Is it poison or good food?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#12 Posted : Saturday, November 7, 2009 12:07:26 PM(UTC)
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I agree Walt - more and more. Yes Christianity is poison, but there are some good historical documents written unfortunately by Christians, using their doctrine. It does not lessen the fact that their historical evidence isn't valid, they just smear it in Christianity - its kinda like a cake that someone hid poison in. If you know what the poison looks like, you can eat around it.

But yes I have to agree - I can't ever say I would recommend any book written by a Christian no matter how valid their history is, if that person is not on solid foundations first.
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Offline James  
#13 Posted : Sunday, November 8, 2009 9:20:54 AM(UTC)
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You just have to separate facts presented form opinion presented, it can be a bit tricky as they often present there opinions as facts,but none the less, if you know Yahweh you can find the truth in them. I've just finished Phillip Comforts Encountering the Manuscripts, and it was exactly that, a whole lot of useful facts, but they where smothered in his useless opinions.

I agree you have to be careful who you recommend such works to, as they can be very deceptive if one is not well grounded in Yahweh.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Walt  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:16:29 AM(UTC)
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I agree with what you are saying James and Robski, there is a difference between a person who rooted in Yahweh reading a book for historical info, and one reading looking for matters pertaining to their faith.

Here's a case in point I'm troubled by:

I was listening to one of the Shelter's radio shows, and KP talked about some christian authors books he had read on Prophecy, that they didn't see the picture.
He said "these were men who loved God", to me that means they are saved.

Does "loved God" that mean anything?
Do they love God if they deny Torah and Yahweh's appointed days?

Do they love God, or the false created image of God of their imagining?
and does it have any value?

If loving God carries any weight, if it's not according to the TRUTH of Scripture, then what's the point of YY and seeking out TRUTH - it would be better to stay ignorant in religion.

You could say "they really loved God" of most all devout religious person, but does it really mean anything.

I'm not trying to be contentious here, I've just followed to to many false trails that don't lead to the TRUE creator, mixed messages just make things confusing.
I'm about ready to throw my arms up in the air and give up on it all.
Offline James  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:14:56 AM(UTC)
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Personally i would say it defiantly depends on who the God you love is. i'm sure there are muslims who love allah, but they do not love Yahweh, I'm sure there are people of all religions that love their god, but they do not know Yahweh. Loving a God other than Yahweh and trusting that god with your soul, is a dead end.
I don't know about the authors Ken was talking about, or how exactly he meant it, it could be that he was saying that they loved Yahweh, but still didn't grasp his message properly, but I don't know, we'll have to wait for his response.
As for me, the object of your affection is what is important. If you love women, but you don't love my wife, your marriage ain't real.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:53:47 AM(UTC)
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Hey Walt,

Yea I completely get you man - this is something I struggle with. I know people who are head over heals in love with the god they believe exists. Unfortunately this god isn't the one portrayed in Scripture so my reaction that of what Peter for example wrote at the end of his 2nd letter - "it will lead to their destruction". They can love as much as they like, but if the object of that love isn't accurate, if they do not know Yah - then either their love is worthless or they are loving the wrong thing.

Yah pressed on us that Knowledge of Him is the key, but with that Knowledge comes love. I mean really who can say they love Yah less from finding out even a fraction of this awesome painting...

As for what Ken said - I cant remember the episode although I know I do think our views differ in part. I believe it doesn't matter how much you love something, if you dont know Him you ain't getting in. If you do know Him you know what is written and you know the plan, because that is what He revealed of Himself to us.

In its most complimentary form I suppose I see Christianity as a kinda celebrity culture club. You have the screaming fans following devotedly after the image of a person painted by their publicist. They only know He exists, but He doesn't know them. They may feel close when he gazes out into the crowds but he doesn't know any of them. Could 99% of those people walk into his dressing room and crack open a beer and tell him maybe those shoes were a bad idea? Of course not!

My point is "I do not know you, go away from me"... People may think they love Yah - but if they have been beguiled and led astray down some false message that is not from Torah - they do not know Him, and most importantly He doesn't know them - even if its to their shock. It leads to their destruction!

Can we learn anything from historical books written by Christians? Sure as long as they rely on historical fact - because that's what it is - otherwise its just doctrine trying to squeeze scripture to fit it, and that ain't gonna happen.
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Offline Matthew  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, November 10, 2009 5:13:17 AM(UTC)
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Walt wrote:
I was listening to one of the Shelter's radio shows, and KP talked about some christian authors books he had read on Prophecy, that they didn't see the picture.
He said "these were men who loved God", to me that means they are saved.

Does "loved God" that mean anything?
Do they love God if they deny Torah and Yahweh's appointed days?

Do they love God, or the false created image of God of their imagining?
and does it have any value?

If loving God carries any weight, if it's not according to the TRUTH of Scripture, then what's the point of YY and seeking out TRUTH - it would be better to stay ignorant in religion.

You could say "they really loved God" of most all devout religious person, but does it really mean anything.


From my understanding KP wasn't referring to Protestant or Catholic Christians but to typical Christians who are more serious about their walk with God. These are some of the types who've rejected pagan festivals but just haven't yet come to fully understand the Torah, they don't despise it and hate it but rather just don't pay sufficient attention to it due to semantics and differences in languages and translations. In my opinion they're not banished from salvation, as some seem to suggest, but would rather fit the first half of Matthew 5:19.

Also, we musn't forget that in the heart of the Ark of the Covenant are the 10 Commandments, which say nothing about the Feasts but instead say love God and love your neighbour, which are the greatest of the Commandments. The rest of the Torah is for our benefit, for us to know more about God and His plan of Salvation.
Offline James  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, November 10, 2009 6:21:01 AM(UTC)
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Robski wrote:
In its most complimentary form I suppose I see Christianity as a kinda celebrity culture club. You have the screaming fans following devotedly after the image of a person painted by their publicist. They only know He exists, but He doesn't know them. They may feel close when he gazes out into the crowds but he doesn't know any of them. Could 99% of those people walk into his dressing room and crack open a beer and tell him maybe those shoes were a bad idea? Of course not!


I like this Rob, think I'm going to steal it, but don't worry I'll give you credit for it.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:34:52 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:

Also, we musn't forget that in the heart of the Ark of the Covenant are the 10 Commandments, which say nothing about the Feasts but instead say love God and love your neighbour, which are the greatest of the Commandments. The rest of the Torah is for our benefit, for us to know more about God and His plan of Salvation.


And how are we told to display this love? If you love me... lol


James wrote:
I like this Rob, think I'm going to steal it, but don't worry I'll give you credit for it.


lol go for it :S...


I think the thing we need to remember, going off topic, is that there is no room to think about how saved someone is - all we are told is that there is right and wrong and we need to promote what we have found to be trustworthy and reliable. Yah can sort out the rest.

The path is narrow etc.

Again as for history books - all historical accounts are bias depending on the author and his political/religious stance. So Christian or not you will find solid history and dates with maybe a twist to their ideas/doctrines/point or whatever. As long as you know what the message is, you can filter the garbage.
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Offline Matthew  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:44:38 AM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
And how are we told to display this love? If you love me... lol


So if to love God is to keep His Commands then does that mean we should do literal things like wear tassels, not wear clothing of mixed thread, sacrifice the Passover in the town Yahweh chooses, etc.? ;)
Offline James  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:27:32 PM(UTC)
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Rob wrote:
I think the thing we need to remember, going off topic, is that there is no room to think about how saved someone is - all we are told is that there is right and wrong and we need to promote what we have found to be trustworthy and reliable. Yah can sort out the rest.

HalleluYah
Matthew wrote:
So if to love God is to keep His Commands then does that mean we should do literal things like wear tassels, not wear clothing of mixed thread, sacrifice the Passover in the town Yahweh chooses, etc.?

This is why I really love the way Yada uses the word observe. We are to observe the Torah, not attempt to follow it to the Tee. If we love Yahweh we will want to take the time to closely observe and scrutinize his word, we will want to understand as best we can what he has said, and as best we can heed his advice. Now as someone who still occasionally indulges in a little bacon, I'm guilty of not heeding his advice, but while he is upset, at least in the sense a father is upset when their child does something that is unhealthy for them, he knows that I love him and care for him, and he loves me as well. Understanding what he has said is key to understanding who he is, and ultimately the key to knowing him, and thus loving him, and ultimately relying on him. If you miss that first step, it is very hard to see how the rest can fall into place.

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
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