KP recently I keep seeing a reoccuring theme when it comes to his take on prophecy. The concept of the church being raptured away and a 7 year tribulation period is what I do not "get".

My questions are thus:

1. In a nutshell what is happening in the first 3 1/2 years of this 7 year tribulation time in your opinion. Or, why is there 7 years of tribulation?

2. When does the Ekklesia get taken off the earth? At the start of the 7 years, the midpoint of the 7 years, or at the end of the 7 years?

3. What scriptures can you use to back this up?

My first postings on this site had to do with end times prophecy. I do not intend in this post to go through the whole scenario as I see it unless it comes to this. The point here is to see if there is something I did not see. Why do you folks believe in a 7 year tribulation and a rapture of the church when scriptures to me say otherwise?

(As much as I love you guys take on religion, government, etc., I lose it when you talk about typical Christian dogma such as rapture. Show me the Rapture!)

I have a few comments, but first a few questions for clarification.

When you reference Paul's comments what verses are you looking at? 2Thess ch. 2? Also there is a verse that talks about the restrainer being removed. Are you referencing that also?

And according to what you stated the church is taken away before this 7 year period which does imply a "rapture" if you will even though you are not calling it that. Correct?

I will go look up the reference you made in TOM and get back sometime later today.

[NOTE: Okay, in TOM you DO reference 2 Thess2:7-8. I am still reading]

[QUESTION...Where in TOM do you equate the Feast Days to the 2nd Resurrection? Most of what you are suggesting here is that the Feast Days seem to encompass the 1st Resurrection. What part of the Feast days do you say relates to the 2nd resurrection?]

PS

Oh, and Swalchy...you seem to be paraphrazing for me again. I have not stated what you implied yet. I DO believe there is a harvest of souls. However, I see it at a different point in time. But that is not important yet. I want to look at this 7 yr. period for a second and then this removal of the Ekklesia first.

Gee, this forum is getting to be like the ocean: you can't turn your back on it for a minute, or it'll get away from you :-)

Okay. The "rapture," as Swalchy noted, has become a technical term used to describe a particular future event described by the Greek word harpazo in I Thes 4:17 (and again, descriptively, though the word isn't used, in I Cor 15:52. The fact of this event is undisputable (if you claim to trust scripture), so the only unresolved issue is when it will take place.

Post Trib rapturists (like you, I'm presuming, PS---correct me if I'm wrong) tend to see the pre-trib rapture position as a scam, a dodge, an abdication of of a believer's responsibilities: it's just too easy, too good to be true (kind of like being saved through grace alone). When I set out to write FH, I determined to set aside everything I'd ever been taught on the subject (including the pre-trib rapture) if I found that the scriptural evidence supported another view. I must tell you, whereas it used to be my "blessed hope" and lightly held opinion, the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture is now my unshakable belief.

The post-trib rapture has several fatal flaws. (1) It's adherents are forced into a salvation by works scenario. The only criteria by which one is said to escape the wrath of God during the second half of the trib is to refuse to take the mark of the beast. But there is no similar "work" prescribed for those who live and die prior to this time. (2) They are forced to describe the Great Tribulation as something less than a time of Yahweh's wrath (which it clearly is), for God has not appointed us unto wrath (I Tim 5:9). (3) If God intends to miraculously shelter His ekklesia from harm until the end of the Tribulation, then who are the mutitudes of martyrs seen in heaven during the Tribulation (Rev 6:9, 7:14, etc.)? Yahweh's pattern, as demonstrated in the case of Lot (cf. Luke 17:28) is to remove His people before He sends His wrath, not protect them in the midst of it. (4) The II Thes 2:7-8 thing that you mentioned. If the "restrainer" is not the Holy Spirit (who can't be removed without taking the ekklesia out, for the HS dwells within us), I have yet to hear one plausible theory as to who it might be. The only one I've ever heard that makes any sense at all is that the restrainer is the Church. But if God's Spirit still dwells within believers today, it's all the same thing: the restrainer will be taken out of the way before the Antichrist is revealed, leaving the post-trib theory high and dry.

All that being said, there will be a second "harvest" of the souls of the tribulation martyrs sometime before the Millennial Kingdom begins. And although it isn't spelled out in scripture, there has to be another one transitioning Millennium believers who have died into the immortal state at the end of the Millennium. But there is only one miqra designed to celebrate the principle of bodily change into the immortal state: the Feast of Trumpets. Which brings up another fatal flaw to the post-trib position. If the rapture is at the end of the Tribulation, then we know precisely when it will be: the Feast of Trumpets in 2033---September 24, a fact which flatly contradicts the principle that "no man knows the day or the hour..."

kp

But what KP is saying is that there most definitely is a rapture of the church for a 7 year period. Or a harvesting I gues she calls it. The church is pulled out of the earth before the 7 year contract. Correct? Is that not pre-tribulation rapture or did I miss what he said? He said...Yahweh's pattern, as demonstrated in the case of Lot (cf. Luke 17:28) is to remove His people before He sends His wrath...Is this not pre-trib rapture?

But, there is so much to say regarding this whole timeline. I tried to explain this once before. When KP says he is influenced by Rev 7 I can understand the problem. Also, I think his Feast idea is slightly off. The resurrections are implied in the Feasts. But we see it differently.

So where do I start? Well I can tell you this...when you read Rev 6 and then read Rev 7 it is natural to assume the 2 chapters are in timeline with each other. Thus you see seals being opened (6), then you see people coming out of tribulation (7:14), then you see more seals being talked about (8). It is natural to think 7 is in between 6 and 8 in order to show what KP sees - protection.

This is not what is going on. Ch. 7 has nothing to do with any action between ch. 6 and 8. It is 2 different events - one of what happened before ch. 6 (the sealing of Israel) and one of what happened after the tribulation. How it got stuck in ch. 7 I have no clue. In 7:14 it tells us they have come out of great tribulation, but things are just getting started.

Look - I really don't want to go into this again unless someone really wants to hear it and I know you an KP probably do not. It gets long and involved. But I will lay down my premise to you once again...

1. A contract is made for 7 years. This simply starts a 7 year period. there is no tribulation yet. The first 3 1/2 years of this are peace and contentment. Why does anyone need to leave the earth yet? And what would we be doing in heaven? Those comments in Rev are from entities commenting in heaven describing what they are seeing on the earth.
2. The agreement is broken and the abomination of desolation is setup. This happens in the middle of the 3 1/2 year period.
3. Once this happens the Tribulation starts for a 3 1/2 year period. Yashua allows the earth to be ravaged. We see the 2 witnesses emerge, Israel gets taken care of TO THE WILDERNESS WHERE A PLACE HAS BEEN PREPARED - not to heaven. And Israel comes OUT of tribulation.
4. When Yashua returns the tribulation is over.
5. He destroys evil in the world. this is an exact copy of the first Passover as we saw in Exodus. The Israelites were Passed over due to the blood of the lamb and end the end times the new Isrealites will be passed over since they will be sealed as is stated in Rev 7.
6. He cleanses Satan. this is analogous to the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Getting sin out for 1,000 years.
7. On the third day he raises the dead and those in christ join him. This is analogous to Firstfruits.
8. In 4 days + 50 days something else happens. Possible the rest are resurrected that are in the first resurrection. I cannot say for sure what happens on the 50th day after the Passover days, but something must.

But at this point we have seen the fulfillment of the Passover feast and feast of Pentecost. It is the 2nd resurrection that takes place that is the fulfillment of the Fall Feasts.

Anyway, as much as I can agree with a lot of KPs writings on the Law and other things I cannot believe when we are so far apart such as this. And as far as 2thess goes...I want to post the Message Bible here...

2Th 2:3 Don't fall for any line like that. Before that day comes, a couple of things have to happen. First, the Apostasy. Second, the debut of the Anarchist, a real dog of Satan.
2Th 2:4 He'll defy and then take over every so-called god or altar. Having cleared away the opposition, he'll then set himself up in God's Temple as "God Almighty."
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember me going over all this in detail when I was with you? Are your memories that short?
2Th 2:6 You'll also remember that I told you the Anarchist is being held back until just the right time.
2Th 2:7 That doesn't mean that the spirit of anarchy is not now at work. It is, secretly and underground.
2Th 2:8 But the time will come when the Anarchist will no longer be held back, but will be let loose. But don't worry. The Master Jesus will be right on his heels and blow him away. The Master appears and--puff!--the Anarchist is out of there.

Just because the anti-christ is being held back does not mean that when he is let loose that the Holy Spirit will be leaving those sealed with it. He does not take the Holy SPirit(s) off the earth since there are people, believers, on it fighting and witnessing and being beheaded.

Well - I just wrote a nice reply and it did not post and I lost it.

Look, Jack VI is an idiot. Enough said.

And I read KP's Mosaic Law analyses. I understand how he sees the Feasts even though you imply I did not read it. And am I supposed to just accept it? Has his theory ever been challenged or did you just take it at face value? Do you even know what the questions are? :)

I enjoy reading KP's writings. I learned a lot from his Mosiac Law post (I cut it out of a bigger post I think). But there are some things that he says that sound wonderful that I think are not accurate. One has to do with the feminin Holy Spirit. One has to do with how he sees the Feast days and their relation to end times. And thus we are having chats.

You haven't seen the next questions that are coming. One of them concerns the name Yahweh. We need to discuss how you guys view this name I think. You are missing the point of who Yahweh is actually. :) (really).

But lets finish end times. I am really busy right now and did not want to get too involved, but you guys are a hoot I guess so lets rumble. And I am not looking for converts - just trying to explain what scripture is saying to me of all people.

What do you want to do Bitnet? Go deep into Revelation? I tried that once before.

TOM #569:



I also like verses 46-47: "Anyone who goes into the house while it is closed up will be unclean till evening. Anyone who sleeps or eats in the house must wash his clothes. People who do not get removed before the Tribulation will still be able to come to salvation. However, they (Laodiceans) will need to put effort in and buy gold from Yahweh refined in fire so that they can become rich, and buy white clothes to wear to cover their shame, and buy salve to put on their eyes so that they can see (Revelation 3:18). These, the lukewarmers (Revelation 3:15-17 and Matthew 25 and the foolish virgins who didn't keep their Oil levels checked), that miss the Rapture are given a second opportunity, albeit having to face the Mark of the Beast, amongst other issues.

The Rapture has even been discussed within the Torah.

[GUYS - SORRY, BUT I HURT MY BACK AND CANNOT SIT. i'LL BE BACK IN A FEW DAYS. SORRY]

PS

Shalom,

Hey, hey... who yer callin' old? I'm still young... below the age of 80... before middle age! Proof? I still play video games! Hahaha! Berated for it, but a man's gotta have a hobby...