Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,191 Location: São Paulo, Brazil Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
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I've asked kp something similar before on the I t doesn't seem to make sense... thread Matthew wrote:To answer your question "Have you ever met a 100% perfectly obedient believer?", my answer is "No, I haven't", but I have met some with horribly wrong doctrinal beliefs, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, etc. So to add more to my original question, even though their doctrine is horribly wrong, won't their belief in Yahshua's salvation earn them a Rapture passport? If Catholics get "taken" then the Catholic Church won't have much effect in the last days as they would have lost most of their support. Then to add more: What about Matthew 25, concerning the foolish virgins, the talent keepers and the separation of the sheep and the goats, is this chapter referring to those who believe after the Rapture or more do with those who died before it, or both? Because from my understanding this passage refers to believers who accepted the Messiah but then never followed through with obedience. And we know that the Raptured are saved but won't be judged, in the negative sense.
But then from reading Matthew 25 and other passages we find that there is a limit to Yahweh's salvation, which includes turning ones back, continuing in disobedience, leading others astray, etc. I gather this is where it comes down to a man's heart and his level of understanding, and only Yahweh knows the heart of a man.
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And concerning who will be Raptured: Technically, those who teach, unknowingly, false doctrine in church are effectively leading others astray. Will these be Raptured too? From my understanding of Matthew 5:19 shows that there is a level of grace when teaching falsely, at least unknowingly. Matthew 5:19 "Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men to do so, shall be least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be great in the reign of the heavens." SourceHere's kp's response: kp wrote:Matthew, although it's not my place to judge hearts, as far as I can tell (based on their "horribly wrong doctrine," as you put it) JWs and Mormons don't actually have a "belief in Yahshua's salvation." Theirs is a religion of works, period. Although they use some of the right words, the meanings they assign to them have been twisted into something unrecognizable by Biblical standards. They haven't got a prayer of being included in the rapture. Catholic doctrine is just as bad, but there are nominal Catholics (very few) who ignore or deny their church's error and maintain a simple faith in Yahshua's grace. But the vast majority buy into the papal bull (so to speak) and disqualify themselves from a relationship with Yahweh in the process. The vast majority of practicing Catholics will be left behind. In short, it's not what you do (or don't do), but Who you know. It's not your religion, but your relationship with Yahweh that counts.
The three illustrations of Matthew 25 teach three different truths, concerning three different groups. The ten virgins tells how Philadelphia will be raptured while Laodicea will be left behind (Revelation 3). The key is: oil represents the Holy Spirit---either She is dwelling within you, lighting your life, or you're still in the dark. Note that the five foolish virgins, however, can still buy oil, just not while the party is going on---that is, the door of salvation remains open to the Laodiceans until the Millennium commences, but they will not come to faith until after the rapture. This tardiness in belief is precisely what defines them as Laodiceans. I covered all of this stuff in Future History by the way. I know it's long, but maybe you ought to read it.
The parable of the talents speaks of the rewards (or lack therof) that will be received by believers at the "Bema" or Judgment Seat of Christ. It has nothing to do with salvation, and everything to do with God's recognition of our faithfulness. Note that all three servants served the same Master, but some did well and some acted like lazy idiots.
The last illustration, the sheep and goats, describes the mortal population still living at the end of the Tribulation (few as they might be). Some will be counted worthy to enter the Kingdom, and some will be summarily slain. The interesting, terrifying thing here is that one's "doctrinal position" has nothing to do with one's worthiness at this point, for the simple reason that the knowledge of Yahweh's grace has been forcibly suppressed in the world for years by this time. Nobody has a doctrinal position. Rather, one's beliefs are judged simply by their actions---did they follow their consciences; did they do what they knew in their hearts to be right, even if it put them in danger to do so?
Finally, the only "limit to Yahweh's salvation" is the one that He imposed upon Himself from the very beginning. He made it our prerogative to choose Him or reject Him. He won't force us to love Him. It's up to us. He paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world, but He won't force anyone to walk out of the prison doors He opened up for us. Incredibly, many will choose to stay and rot there.
kp SourceHope it adds to the thread ;)
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