Both Yada (Yada) and KP make excellent work on validating the Rapture being Pre-Tribulation. Ken covers it in Future History in many places, but most notably chapter 8, called Getting All Caught Up. He also mentions in odd places where even the Torah discusses the Rapture, check out Mitvah #568 in chapter 15 of TOM vol. 1. Also read chapter 10 and the section concerning the Feast of Trumpets of TOM vol. 2. Also read Yada's chapter called Taruw'ah, chapter 7, under the section called Called-Out Assemblies in Yada Yahweh.

Tha Rapture is on, and it is Pre-Trib!

Nevertheless,

God's Spirit resides within believers, and He's promised never to leave us nor forsake us. If the Spirit goes, then it leaves us forsaken, God cannot contradict Himself.

I'm not sure of the exact role of the Spirit in the Old Covenant but I know David had the Spirit, even Saul had the Spirit too, and it departed him, and an evil spirit came over him in the Spirit's place.

I know I didn't answer your questions fully, Dodi, but Yada and KP have done extensive studies in this field and have covered it from numerous, if not all, angles, and one is left certain that the Feast of Trumpets is the commonly called Rapture of the Saints. Many Messianics preach against the Rapture but I've yet to come across one that can provide solid grounds in support of their argument, many dismissing it simply because "I don't like it!"

Good questions, Dodi, ones that have caused confusion and consternation for a couple of thousand years now. The first one is simple enough. We read in John 14:16-17, "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of Truth...." So unless Yahshua is a liar, the Spirit can't be removed from the earth leaving living believers behind. On rapture day + one, there won't be a single follower of Yahweh alive on the planet, but that's not to say no one will come to faith after that time. Revelation 3 makes it clear that after the "saints" of Philadelphia are gone (kept out of the hour of temptation that will come upon the whole earth), the ekklesia of Laodicea will be given their second chance---to "acquire gold tried in the fire" from Yahshua, to don the garments of light (imputed righteousness), and to have their spiritual blindness cured---in other words, to accept Yahshua's invitation to "hear His voice" and "open the door" to Him. These latecomers, being part of the ekklesia, will be (as promised in John 14) indwelled with God's Spirit. But they won't come to enjoy that status until after the Spirit has "caught up" the Philidelphian believers.

Your second question is trickier. Who is the "restrainer?" It is not Michael, for the simple reason that angels are servants of Yahweh, not spiritual police. The word (from the Greek aggelos) literally means messengers. Nowhere are they tasked with making human beings behave themselves, for that would violate our freedom of choice. Granted, there is a fine line between protecting God's people (something angels do) and restraining the evil of godless men. A more logical (and far more prevalent) view is that "the restrainer" is the church. Then we need to define what we mean by the word. If it's the ekklesia, the "called-out" of Yahshua, then the argument is a moot point, for God's Spirit dwells within us---and is restraining evil through us. So we're back to square one: if the Spirit leaves, the called-out folks must leave as well. It's tantamount to being the same thing. (Note that the cultural influence of God's people restrains evil by its very presence, not by restricting freedom of choice, but by making us examples of God's love on earth---representatives of the Spirit.) But if the "church" is christendom in general, the wheat and the tares growing together in the field, then all I can say is as an entity, they've done a terrible job of restraining evil in the world. They're far more often part of the evil than the restraining influence. To my mind, the only candidate that makes any sense at all is that the restrainer is the Ruach Qodesh, the Holy Spirit of Yahweh.

kp

Good, thank you.
..
also, if you can find it (more rare than very fine gold),
the 'restrainer' is not 'removed'...
rather
the disobedient one who will not ever and cannot repent
is fully 'birthed' on earth - the worse time on earth ever in history.
.
the translations that suppose a restrainer is removed
do just that - suppose, they don't translate.
no where else is/are the words translated with that meaning (of something being removed)...
always the idea/meaning is the birth of something or someone.
thus the most difficult times, the worse time on earth
is
when the enemy is fully birthed.
and
as always
only the little ones who trust and obey Yahvah are kept from being deceived.

http://www.velocity.net/~edju/restrain5.htm

Prophet speaks, have a look at Future History please, even if you just browse it, at least try review the appendix chronology sections at the end. They provide an excellent summary about the order of events.


Give us a go on the forum instead, at least for now, because I agree with most people on the forum and you would usually get a quick and adequate response. If you really want you more than welcome to send a Personal Message through the forum, but try post in the forum instead as it's specifically created to learn and study together as a family. Try read the thread "Answering "Post-Trib" Rapture advocates" as it is a good thread regarding debunking the post-trib theory, if you have any questions after reading it then feel free to respond.

And so far on this thread I agree with Swalchy's comment and don't feel a need to add anything extra.

To me a Jew in an Israelite, same thing. Born a Jew, always a Jew, regardless of religion. Heck, I'm South African, will always be. I'm a Gentile, will always be. But can I also be a Yahudi (Related to Yah), from the tribe of Judah? Yes I can, in the spiritual sense, but not in the physical.



I'm not sure if I get you on this, are you saying the flight of the Jews is 3 and half years long or that the Tribulation is 3 and half years long? To me Daniel 9 confirms the flight occurs halfway into the Tribulation, and Yahshua confirms the reason why in Matthew 24. That Antichrist will set himself up as God in the Tribulation temple (which is not the glorious temple specified by Ezekiel), this causes Jews/Israelites/possible-Gentile-believers-living-in-the-land-too to flee into the wilderness. This happens at the mid-point of the Tribulation.



Rapture is pre-trib, the last possible year for it to happen is 2026. Believers in Yahshua get spared of the trial coming upon the whole earth.

The Tribulation commences in 2026, and ends in 2033. Saved-survivors through the Tribulation do not get Raptured when Yahweh appears, they continue in their mortals forms on earth, they'll repopulate the earth. Non-believers who make it to the end will die at His appearance in fullness. Yahweh returns with His saints by His side.

Prophet speaks, how about Leviticus 14:33-53? Check the priest first removing those within the house (hint, hint, Rapture), he then shuts the house for seven days (hint, hint, Tribulation will last 7 years long, 2520 days exactly), anyone who happens to be in the house during the seven days needs to become clean (hint, hint, people can come to salvation during the Tribulation), and plus all the other little bits within the passage are extremely prophetic if one just looks a little deeper than the surface. Read point 568 here: http://theownersmanual.n...Torah?usterms=568#search

There is a Pre-Trib Rapture, even Isaiah 57 records it.

I have spoke with many orthodox rabbi's and not one has ever denied that a Messianic Jew is not Jewish by their ethnicity, they don't like the term Messianic Jew because they feel that that is a religious use of the term and that the Messianic Jews are not religious Jews, and should not use the term in a religious way. You can't say that they are ethnically Israeli since many of these people have never even been to Israel and have as much in common with an Israeli as they do with a Asian. Jew is an ethnicity, and you can not change your ethnicity. A good way to think about is a to have Religion Ethnicity, so a Messianic Jew is a Messianic by Religion, and a Jew by ethnicity, so you could say a Jewish Jew is a member of the Jewish religion, and ethnically a Jew.

And even if Orthodox rabbis don't consider Messianic Jews to be Jewish they don't get to decide. As proof a Messianic Jew can still apply for a Minority Scholarship as a Jew at any college in America.

No one can change there ethnicity no matter if they want to or others of there ethnicity wants them to.

And by using the Word TRUTH B-TOLD has solved the "who is a Jew" mystery!

*great post TBT!

Let's move on with the topic...

Religious chat rooms? You're joking, right? This place is about as anti-religious as you can get, though we all share a deep and abiding reverence for Yahweh and His Messiah. I guess the world doesn't know the difference.

Forgive us (well, me, anyway) for not responding to your post-trib assertions. It's just that that myth has been disproved so often and so thoroughly that it's become a tiresome chore to do it all again. Believe what you want about it, but please, if Yahshua comes back for us one of these days---some Yom Teruah in the next 17 years---don't refuse to go with us just because of a philosophical difference of opinion. Being wrong about the timing of the rapture is not a deal breaker, and it shouldn't stand in the way of our fellowship.

kp

I could tell from your writing that we had more in common than in difference. I'm glad you have taken the time to read the ideas and opinions of the forum. I and I'm sure everyone else here laughed at the idea that you found us googling Religious Forums, as we are far from religious.

I would caution you that in the future you may want to understand your audience before you begin. Had this been a religious forum the likeliness of your audience listening to your argument would have flown out the door immediately, as it was obvious that you where not interested in dialoging and had no idea what the people you where talking to believed. While most everyone here is open to challenges and confrontation most religious people need to be eased into it more, because they do tend to get defensive and shut out arguments they don't want to hear, I speak from experience. I used to go at chirstian's much the same way you seem to, pointing out everything that is wrong right off the bat, and getting in there face about it. I found that a very counterproductive method. I would recommend in the future when you enter religious chats that you try to learn about the people, and develop a rapport with them, they will be much more open to listening to your ideas.

Understanding is what we all seek, and helping others understand is one of our goals, we must be carefull how we go about it lest we drive people away.



Well stated with your usual wit and insight KP.