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Offline Matthew  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1:38:27 PM(UTC)
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Here is a study I was doing this evening on the topic of salvation. The main question is: can a person lose their status of salvation? I think Scripture clearly indicates that a person can have God's Spirit depart them, here's how:

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 wrote:
"23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you."

This passage says virgins pledged to be married will suffer death if they sleep with another man. In a metaphorical sense, we are pledged to be married to Yahshua and we must not be seduced and lead astray by another man, like Satan

2 Corinthians 11:2-4 wrote:
"2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."

I dug a lot into this book this evening, first thing I noticed was that Paul based his commentary on the Old Covenant Scriptures, this passage of 2 Corinthians 11 (even going up to verse 15 of the chapter) is directly related and confirms the Deuteronomy 22:23-24 passage, even going as far as saying about those that lead astray "their end will be what their actions deserve," confirming the perpetrator being stoned to death in Deuteronomy 22:24. Paul says he wants to present us, "who are sincere and pure in devotion to Messiah," as virgins to the Messiah, we are not married to Him while on earth, but are only betrothed to Him on earth, there's still the potential of us being lead astray, whereas if we were to receive our spiritual-immortal bodies we won't be able to be lead astray. Paul even address the Corinthians as "saints" and having the seal of ownership (God's Spirit) in the opening chapter, a definite indication that they are "saved" people. Paul says he's concerned they'll be lead astray in chapter 11, especially that they might partake in the sins listed in chapter 21 verse 12. Note: Paul even quotes Deuteronomy 19:15 in 2 Corinthians 13:1, and the way he quotes it even stresses he considered the Law as still valid.

Leviticus 21:10-15 wrote:
"10 The high priest, the one among his brothers who has had the anointing oil poured on his head and who has been ordained to wear the priestly garments, must not let his hair become unkempt or tear his clothes. 11 He must not enter a place where there is a dead body. He must not make himself unclean, even for his father or mother, 12 nor leave the sanctuary of his God or desecrate it, because he has been dedicated by the anointing oil of his God. I am Yahweh. 13 The woman he [the high priest] marries must be a virgin. 14 He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people, 15 so he will not defile his offspring among his people. I am Yahweh, who makes him holy."

We all know Yahshua is our High Priest, and here the high priest was explicitly told that he was to only marry a virgin, obviously symbolic of Yahshua marrying a pure virgin.

Matthew 25:1-13 wrote:
"1 At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' 7 Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' 9 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.' 10 But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11 Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!' 12 But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' 13 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."

This passage confirms that we are still virgins while living on earth and only become "married" once we are in Heaven with Yahshua. Again, the possibility of being lead astray is still very real. This parable confirms that the 10 virgins all had oil (symbolic of the Spirit) to begin with, but the wise one's ensured they had sufficient oil until the bridegroom came, however the lamps of the foolish one's went out.

In other words, I see Scripture confirming that if we believers, who are pledged to be married to Yahshua (the High Priest), are lead astray by Satan then we will suffer death, being taken outside and stoned, obviously this means that the young girl who's no longer a virgin won't get to marry the husband she was initially betrothed to. The warning is clear: by accepting the gift of eternal life, by believing in Yahshua, we become pledged in marriage to Him, and we better not be lead astray while betrothed to Him because the outcome is not good.

Edited by user Thursday, March 5, 2009 12:11:13 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Corrected grammar mistake in the subject line and in the post

Offline sirgodfrey  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:37:40 PM(UTC)
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Whoa brother, this is some good stuff. The question that just now popped into my head is what about the promise of Yah to keep those whom He has sealed with the Spirit (oil)? He says that He will keep His people until the day of redempton. He will cause them to walk in His statutes and to keep His way, and lead them into eternity with Himself (marriage).
Offline Matthew  
#3 Posted : Thursday, March 5, 2009 1:05:05 AM(UTC)
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Here are just a few more passages I'd like to highlight about continuing in the good fight:

Romans 11:17-24, especially verse 22, Colossians 1:21-23, 1 John 2:24-29, and 2 John 1:7-11.

But when I first read your, sirgodfrey, post the first thing that came to mind was that the priests were commanded not to leave the Tent of Meeting because they have the annointing oil on them in Leviticus 10:7. But not being sure of my interpretation I double checked it and I find that kp has mentioned this as having to do with the rapture in that we are spared from harm if we remain in the plan of God because in context this passage has to do with us being commanded to not mourn those left behind, those that will face the wrath of Yahweh. But still in mitzvah #446, chapter 11 of TOM vol.1, kp doesn't rule out this interpretation, the reason I say this is because Aaron's sons, including Nadab and Abihu, were annointed with oil in Leviticus 8, and this happened before they offered profaned fire in Leviticus 10, or as kp would say, they "usurp[ed] His authority through the practice of religion." It seems as if we can conlude that those people who were previously annointed with the annointing oil who then go and turn their backs and teach another way to Yahweh are in serious danger of His wrath falling upon them.

I also believe that not all of us are strong in the walk, some are very weak, but yet through acknowledgment of one's sin and even through one's feeble attempts to continue in the walk Yahweh will still keep His seal upon us, in order for us to receive the promised eternal inheritance. I guess the question is: at what stage does a person lose their status of salvation? I guess when they don't continue in the good fight, when they turn they backs and no longer acknowledge Yahshua as Messiah, and God forbid they go further and teach deceptions.
Offline Heretic Steve  
#4 Posted : Saturday, March 7, 2009 10:39:26 AM(UTC)
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Matt, are you saying that once a person is saved, they can then lose their salvation by their works? I've always figured that once saved, always saved. We can't earn salvation by works, so can we lose it by works? If born anew in Yah's spirit, are you saying that one can be unborn of Yah's spirit and reborn of satan's? If so, where is the line drawn? Does one lose their salvation after one sin? 10? 20? 100? Also, if one is born of satan's spirit, can they then repent, be unborn of satan's spirit? Just how many times can this born anew, (Yah's spirit), unborn, born again, (satan's spirit), unborn and reborn again, vice versa and on and on and on continue? If I eyeball a boatload of thongs that cruises by while I'm fishing, (hey, it sure beats checkin' out the guys), then am I lost and face annihilation or incarceration? If so, I'm toast.

This topic raises some significant questions. Saul had apparently lost Yah's spirit. Was Saul then annihilated/incarcerated? Can one enter/remain in Yah's presence without His Spirit? Don't think so, but whadda I know?
How about this: "Receive, accept and possess Yahuweh’s Words, His Scripture, making it the thing you share in common so that you can return to Him and be restored, turning away from evil and coming back home - literally returning from the dead by being born anew. Answer Yahuweh and say to Him, ‘Forgive all my sins, accept my iniquity, bear my guilt, and carry my liability away, receiving, marrying, and possessing me by way of grace - an unearned favor conceived in love that makes me acceptable. The restoration of our relationship is the result of this communication with You." (Hosea 13:15, 14:1-2)

Notice the phrases "you can return to Him", "be restored", "coming back home". Returning means having been there before, "be restored" indicates a state one had to be restored from, thus a deviation from the first restoration. "Coming back home" indicates having left. One cannot leave a place if they've never been there. Restore, return, come back, all indicate a previous state of alienation preceeded by a state of acceptance. In other words, saved, unsaved, resaved?

What about David/Bathsheeba? Was David unsaved after he boinked her and offed Uriah? Was he unsaved until busted by Nathan and did the sackcloth and ashes routine? Had David died between the two events would he have been lost? David prayed that Yah not remove His Sprit from him. So we can assume that Yah had not removed His Spirit from David in spite of David's sin. So, I guess this means I won't be busted for eyeballin' the thongs.
Does my post seem somewhat discombobulated? Well, I'm not surprised. This topic can be confusing to me, so to avoid said confusion, I'm stickin' with my guns. Once saved, always/eternally saved. We can't earn salvation, we can't unearn salvation.

If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#5 Posted : Saturday, March 7, 2009 12:33:00 PM(UTC)
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I think the whole "saved" thing confuses matters. Its like people think its a stamp on your hand or something...

"Salvation", "being saved", "washed by the blood" or "licked by the lion of judah" however you like to say it, the only way you are gaining it is through relationship. You have to love Yah and develop a relationship - if you walk away from that relationship thats the end of it... Its only the relationship that truely grants "salvation" as to say because the side effect of the relationship is eternal life - living with your dad forever. Why would you want to live with someone forever that you didnt care for...

If you don't have that relationship you arnt "saved", whether you had it and walked away or whatever...

Christians have it very clinicaly layed out that if you say the correct words, and say the right prayer from the correct little booklet you are "in". When it don't work like that... Yah calls us into relationship because He wants to be with us. When we enter into relationship we lose the ability of ceasing to exist - if we walk away from that relationship we are not choosing Yah and His relationship therefor we loose that side effect.

I married my wife and I live with her in our house, if our relationship fell apart, say I showed no interested or just didnt care (or vice versa) it would be likly that we would go our seperate ways. I would not stay living in the house with her, I don't what to be in that relationship anymore...

So its not about being saved or unsaved its about our relationship with Yah and whether we are actively chasing it or are we walking away...

David never walked away, he loved Yah too much, even though he was a bit of a ideot at times (murder, adultary)... But never did he say "see ya later Yah, im off on my own now, you will get a letter from my solicitor... " - he actually went into emo mode, and cried alot for Yah to forgive him.

"Salvation" isnt based on works either way - its a side effect of relationship.

Edited by user Sunday, March 8, 2009 6:22:17 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline sirgodfrey  
#6 Posted : Saturday, March 7, 2009 1:30:57 PM(UTC)
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All of you brothers and sisters are awesome. I'm glad to be in a place where we can discuss Scripture and think critically concerning what has been written for us by the Most High. by golly by gosh....


Although I can see where Matthew is coming from, I agree with Heretic Steve and Robski - if there is something that I have to "do" to be "saved" or keep my salvation, I am sooooo "toast" as Steve stated. I do understand the fact that we continue to love and cherish Yah and our relationship with Him but this is not a "work"... it is simply loving, and falling more in love, with the One that has called us, loves us crazily, and continues to utterly blow our minds with His awesomeness... His patience, kindness, infinite deep love, understanding, His wisdom and knowledge and creativity.

YHWH, you are so freakin amazing. Thank you.
Offline Matthew  
#7 Posted : Sunday, March 8, 2009 4:05:03 AM(UTC)
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I like your post Heretic Steve and many of those questions bother me too. My posts, or I think so, is more do with the black and white issues: those who continue to Yahweh to the end, and those who "have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, (Hebrews 6:4b-5)" and then fall away, but I mean complete falling away, not wishing to return.

Hebrews 6:4-12 (NIV) wrote:
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.


Originally Posted by: Swalchy' Go to Quoted Post
For the reason that it is impossible and incapable for those who have once and formerly in an earlier time been enlightened and illuminated, made clear and imparted with the ability to understand, as they have tasted and experienced, partaken in, taken nourishment from and have come to know both the gift, present and offering of the heavenly places and have come to be and exist, arise and appear as sharers and partakers, participators and companions, partners and fellow workers of the Set-apart and cleansed Spirit*From the placeholder ΠΝΣ, and have tasted and experienced, partaken in, taken nourishment from and have come to know the goodness and pleasantness, excellence and fineness, usefulness and benefit, niceness and salutariness, uprightness and worthiness, admirableness and commendableness, preciousness and genuineness, flawlessness and loveliness, virtuousness, beautifulness and honourableness of God’s*From the placeholder ΘΥ word and saying, statement and message, proclamation and subject matter and the authorities and powers, right and ability, permissions and freedoms, energies, forces and influences of the intended and destined, inevitable and future ages, times and eras, and then deliberately erring and sinning, slipping and falling away, being led astray and lapsing, willingly abandoning and wandering away from the truth, to renew and restore them again, anew and furthermore towards a changed mind and different way of thing, amending their life and attitude, reconsidering and having feelings of compunction, abhorring and repenting of past sins. They are personally crucifying*From the placeholder ΣΤΡΕΣ and impaling the Son*From the placeholder ΥΙΝ of God*From the placeholder ΘΥ again themselves for their own harm, and disgracing, exposing and making an example of Him publically. For the reason that the earth and land, ground and region, having drunk, soaked up and absorbed the rain water that often and frequently at many times comes, appears and arises upon it and brings forth and bears, yields and produces a crop and vegetation that is fit and useful, suitable and valuable, well placed and well arranged for those through the means of and on the grounds of, on account of and for the reason of, on the basis of and because of which it is also farmed and cultivated, then receives and seizes, grasps and ascertains, takes and collects, acquires and obtains, chooses and selects, accepts, claims and procures a share in the blessing and benediction, benefit and gift from God*From the placeholder ΘΥ; but nevertheless, bring out and bearing, producing and upholding thorns, brambles and thistles, briars and burrs, it is therefore unfit and fake, untrustworthy and unreliable, false and unapproved, unqualified and worthless and near to and close to being cursed, execrated and imprecated, whose end and goal, aim and purpose, outcome, result and conclusion is towards being burned and consumed by fire.


I think we should also consider Romans 11:17-24:

Quote:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!


It's not a matter of works to salvation, but a matter of continuing in the good fight even if we slip up many times a day against those who willingly and willfully reject God even after having entered into a relationship with Him before. The latter are pulled out because of unbelief, the same as Israel were, this should be read with John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Yes David made some serious blunders, serious lapses in judgement, but he always returned and was pretty quick to repent, I don't think there was ever a time he was in a status of "unsaved" but was always "saved." If we continue in the Walk then our salvation is sure, if we turn our backs, or should I say completely and utterly turn our backs not wanting to be with Yahweh then we are in serious danger of being cut off.

I agree with Robski's post as well in that it's about actively pursuing a relationship with Yah against walking away from it.
Offline Icy  
#8 Posted : Sunday, March 8, 2009 4:21:27 PM(UTC)
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I was under the impression that those passages in the first post were dealing with relationship, either having it or not. It would seem you can have a relationship and screw up in it, and yet learn from it and maintain the relationship. Sinning is making a mistake and I don't think it would disqualify anyone from salvation, since, as stated, salvation is dependent upon having the relationship. Granted, sinning is not good, but if you have a relationship with Yah, then you feel guitly about your sins and ask for forgiveness, and then attempt not to do it again (though, being human, we are pretty much assured to do so again). Breaking that relationship and following other "gods" is the "sleeping with another" or "receiving a different spirit."

Do not mistake this as a "go ahead and sin all you want because you are saved" type of explanation, because that is not the case. I would say, if one is doing that, then they probably do not have a relationship. In any relationship, you try to respect and please the other, as we do with Yah, but we are going to make mistakes, it doesn't nullify the relationship.
Offline Matthew  
#9 Posted : Monday, March 9, 2009 5:38:19 AM(UTC)
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Good post Icy! I agree with you as well.

Revisiting Steve's post:

Heretic Steve wrote:
Matt, are you saying that once a person is saved, they can then lose their salvation by their works? I've always figured that once saved, always saved. We can't earn salvation by works, so can we lose it by works? If born anew in Yah's spirit, are you saying that one can be unborn of Yah's spirit and reborn of satan's? If so, where is the line drawn? Does one lose their salvation after one sin? 10? 20? 100? Also, if one is born of satan's spirit, can they then repent, be unborn of satan's spirit? Just how many times can this born anew, (Yah's spirit), unborn, born again, (satan's spirit), unborn and reborn again, vice versa and on and on and on continue? If I eyeball a boatload of thongs that cruises by while I'm fishing, (hey, it sure beats checkin' out the guys), then am I lost and face annihilation or incarceration? If so, I'm toast.


We can say "once saved always saved" to those who continue in to walk with Yahweh. But Scripture seems to show that if a person does taste the goodness of God and then falls away rejecting Him they're in danger of annihilation and possibly eternal suffering if they align with Satan, depending if they curse Yahweh (Door 2) or blaspheme Yahweh (Door 3) (see this post by kp as well as 1 John 5:16-17).

1 Thessalonians 5:19 "Do not quench the Spirit." I'm not sure exactly how to interpret this, but it could be saying we should not hinder/dampen the Spirit's influence in our lives, which is certainly true, or that it means to not extinguish the Spirit to such a place that She actually departs. Also, Ephesians 4:30 "And do not grieve the Set-apart Spirit of Elohim, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." In Ephesians 4 Paul is encouraging the congregation to continue in the walk, to grow and learn in Yahshua, walking like believers and not like Gentiles, but certainly indicates the Spirit in our lives being the seal for our redemption. Our walk to endure should be like David's prayer Psalm 51:10-13 "Create in me a clean heart, O Elohim, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Set-apart Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your deliverance, And uphold me, Noble Spirit!" There seems to be a definite threat of God's Spirit departing but I don't think David ever got to that place because he believed in Yah's Salvation.

1 John 3:23-24 "And this is His command, that we should believe in the Name of His Son יהושע Messiah and love one another, as He gave us command. And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us." The whole book of 1 John is about continuing in Him, walking in love. We cannot save ourselves, that's fact, even when we walk in Him we trust in Him.

Heretic Steve wrote:
This topic raises some significant questions. Saul had apparently lost Yah's spirit. Was Saul then annihilated/incarcerated? Can one enter/remain in Yah's presence without His Spirit? Don't think so, but whadda I know?
How about this: "Receive, accept and possess Yahuweh’s Words, His Scripture, making it the thing you share in common so that you can return to Him and be restored, turning away from evil and coming back home - literally returning from the dead by being born anew. Answer Yahuweh and say to Him, ‘Forgive all my sins, accept my iniquity, bear my guilt, and carry my liability away, receiving, marrying, and possessing me by way of grace - an unearned favor conceived in love that makes me acceptable. The restoration of our relationship is the result of this communication with You." (Hosea 13:15, 14:1-2)

Notice the phrases "you can return to Him", "be restored", "coming back home". Returning means having been there before, "be restored" indicates a state one had to be restored from, thus a deviation from the first restoration. "Coming back home" indicates having left. One cannot leave a place if they've never been there. Restore, return, come back, all indicate a previous state of alienation preceeded by a state of acceptance. In other words, saved, unsaved, resaved?


You ask "Can one enter/remain in Yah's presence without His Spirit?" Imagine if one of the priests approached the Tabernacle of God without the anointing oil on his head?

Yada did a great job on Hosea, but I think it's more to do with Israel's restoration; however, Hebrews 6:4-6 indicates it's "impossible" if one was saved and then fully rejects God to return. Logic tells me these people don't want to come back, their minds are fixed. That begs the question, if someone ignores God how far can they push it before losing salvation, which in this case, they could return since the Spirit didn't really leave them? I think we're talking about a small percentage of people who die in a backslidden state, and then only God know. But in most cases we should be able to tell if a person loves God or not, on which side of the fence they are, the book of 1 John helps to tell one from the other, but ultimately Yahweh knows who has His Spirit and who does not.

Heretic Steve wrote:
What about David/Bathsheeba? Was David unsaved after he boinked her and offed Uriah? Was he unsaved until busted by Nathan and did the sackcloth and ashes routine? Had David died between the two events would he have been lost? David prayed that Yah not remove His Sprit from him. So we can assume that Yah had not removed His Spirit from David in spite of David's sin. So, I guess this means I won't be busted for eyeballin' the thongs.
Does my post seem somewhat discombobulated? Well, I'm not surprised. This topic can be confusing to me, so to avoid said confusion, I'm stickin' with my guns. Once saved, always/eternally saved. We can't earn salvation, we can't unearn salvation.


I have the same questions when moving into the grey area. I don't believe David was unsaved in any of those situation though, "close but no cigar," in this case close to severing his relationship but definitely no cigar to celebrate what he did. It's a celebration that Yahweh sticks with us no matter how many mistakes we make, because in the end He loves us and we love Him, to quote Icy "we are going to make mistakes, [however] it doesn't nullify the relationship."

Have I been "discombobulated?"
Offline Heretic Steve  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, March 10, 2009 12:49:27 PM(UTC)
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Was the Prodigal son at anytime not his father's son?
If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline Heretic Steve  
#11 Posted : Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:36:43 AM(UTC)
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Are you saying that out of fellowship is synonymous with out of relationship? If out of relationship, would it have occurred to the wayward son to return?
I've a tough time believing that once one is clothed with Yah's's garment of light/rightousness, they'd be capable of aligning themselves with satan.
If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#12 Posted : Thursday, March 19, 2009 2:07:45 PM(UTC)
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Shalom friends,

I thought I would share my understanding of some of the things that are brought up on this thread. I don't believe that the Heb.6:4-6 is speaking of indivisuals, but rather as in the OT a nation, kingdom, organized religion (churches). The nation of Israel backslid and was cast down, but certain indivisuals still walked with Yahuweh. We know that churches can become dead, for they become overgrown with tares. Now these tares have be enlighten with the word of Yahuweh and have tasted and received blessings that Yahuweh has given to the wheat of the congregation that they have infiltrated. Those churches have their ups and downs, but there will come a time when they to will be cat down or become a dead church.

We can see how the churches benefited from the blessings they received from Yahuweh when we study the whore of Babylon in Revelation.

Rev.17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Rev.17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev.18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Rev.18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her,

Rev.18:12-14 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

The whore has reaped the benefit that came with housing the children of Yahuweh, but there will come a time when our Father will call us out of her as seen in Rev.18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I think when Yahuweh calls his people out from amongst the whore, he will remove his spirit from within the churches which brings salvation to those that believe and helps restrains the evil within her. This might help dodi with her question on the restrainer from another thread, hope she gets to read this. As we can see today this is coming soon, if it has not already taken place. I've personally left the worldly churches 5yrs. ago. Hope I'm not being bias.

A quick noted to sirgodfrey.
"I do understand the fact that we continue to LOVE and cherish Yah and our relationship with Him but this is not a "work"... it is simply LOVING, and falling more in LOVE, with the One that has called us,"

Sorry sirgodfrey, but love is a "work", as defined by the scriptures.

1Thes.1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and LABOUR of LOVE, and patience of hope in our Master Yahushua the Messiah, in the sight of Yahuweh and our Father;

Heb.6:10 For Yahuweh is not unrighteous to forget your WORK and LABOUR of LOVE, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.





Offline JamesH  
#13 Posted : Thursday, March 19, 2009 2:09:41 PM(UTC)
JamesH
Joined: 1/8/2008(UTC)
Posts: 356
Location: Fresno, CA

Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Birth first then relationship. Just like here on earth a son can not have a relationship with his father before he is born. My son will always be my son no mater what he does. At the rapture our father comes for us ( His Children ) we don’t go to him. John 3
Offline sirgodfrey  
#14 Posted : Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:23:06 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

I was speaking of love not being a "work" per se. As in work, like "a work" for salvation. It was grace first that opened us up to even love Him.
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