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Offline Theophilus  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:33:41 PM(UTC)
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As some of you know I frequent other forums and often encounter skeptics and critics who occasionally as thought provoking questions from traditional Christians and attempt to provide a YY based answer. I gave my answers over there however I thought it might make for an interesting question to repeat over here for your input, Here are the questions:

Quote:
If God is the Creator of Everything, as many Christians believe, and He created Satan, does it follow that He is responsible for Satan's actions?

I ask this, not to shake anyone's faith, but for a discussion, (not argument), regarding the moral responsibilities of God.

In short, what I want to explore is this: Is God morally responsible for the actions of His creation, the being commonly referred to as "Satan," known as Lucifer?

Specifically:

1.) Did God know Lucifer would turn from Him?

2.) At what point did He know? Upon creation of Lucifer? At some point thereafter?

3.) If God knew Lucifer would turn from Him and attempt a War in Heaven, is God morally responsible for that war (and the resulting chaos which continues to stem from it)?

Your thoughts, please.


The short version of my answers were:

1) Yes,
2) Yes, probably at "his" inception in close proximity to creation, and
3) Yes and No, it depends. Yah permits the Adversary and his host to act in a fallen mnd rebellious manner, but is limited by Yah and does not control the Adversary's actions to harm humanity.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:42:54 PM(UTC)
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its a lets try and wrap our heads around the infinity of eternity moment :D

All I know is that the relationship with Yah and Satan isnt one that anyone understands. Most religions would say hes the evil kid causing chaos - but from what I have read and learnt since then, the relationship is much deeper and beguiling than that...
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline bitnet  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, January 14, 2009 10:12:05 PM(UTC)
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Shalom,

For this "crime" of creating Halal ben Shachar, Yahweh gave His life already... or did you miss that? ;-)
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Matthew  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:39:49 PM(UTC)
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bitnet wrote:
Shalom,

For this "crime" of creating Halal ben Shachar, Yahweh gave His life already... or did you miss that? ;-)


Good one Bitnet!
Offline kp  
#5 Posted : Thursday, January 15, 2009 5:54:20 AM(UTC)
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Yahweh is not morally culpable of the actions done by His Creation, any more than we are responsible for the behavior of our grown children. Yes, God created satan, and yes, He knew ahead of time that satan would rebel. But Yahweh is not guilty of satan's crimes. He is "guilty" of providing us with a choice of whether to align ourselves with Him, with satan, or with no one at all. Why did He allow us to be tempted? Because Love cannot happen in a vacuum, not really. It's a shallow love indeed that is only there because it has never been tested. There's a reason we write into our marriage vows, "for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health." Love is not love if its object bolts at the first sign of adversity. In a way, satan is like the Law: if we didn't have it, we wouldn't realize we had a choice to make---to follow God's road, or not.

kp
Offline Theophilus  
#6 Posted : Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:16:17 AM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
Yahweh is not morally culpable of the actions done by His Creation, any more than we are responsible for the behavior of our grown children. Yes, God created satan, and yes, He knew ahead of time that satan would rebel. But Yahweh is not guilty of satan's crimes. He is "guilty" of providing us with a choice of whether to align ourselves with Him, with satan, or with no one at all. Why did He allow us to be tempted? Because Love cannot happen in a vacuum, not really. It's a shallow love indeed that is only there because it has never been tested. There's a reason we write into our marriage vows, "for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health." Love is not love if its object bolts at the first sign of adversity. In a way, satan is like the Law: if we didn't have it, we wouldn't realize we had a choice to make---to follow God's road, or not.

kp


Well said Ken. It seems that many in the World hold Yahweh to a higher standard since He permits our testing to include the harmful or deceptive actions of the Advesary and his host.

The example that was rasied specifically was the testing of Job. Yahweh knowingly permitted Job who was by accounts professed fellowship with Yah and enjoyed His blessings and protection. The accusation being that this testing included not only the loss of wealth but the tragic loss of his family. The charge being that Yah's permitting Hallel to inflict such devestating loss makes Yah as "guilty" in harming Job's family as Hallel himself.

I see that permitting this testing resulted in / exposed Job's wife cursing Yahuweh, while Job refused to do so saught answers to troubling questions. I haven't studied Job for too long now but thought he found comfort and satisfaction not in an explanation but in experiencing the presence of Yahweh Himself.

The difference I noted between Yahweh and Hallel's actions seems to be that while Yah knowingly permitted severe and painful loss and suffering to Job, Hallel eagerly wanted to punish Job for his devotion to Yah and no doubt wanted to discourage Job to the point of destroying Job's relationship with and trust in Yah, soul murder. What Job lost while vast were all ultimately temporal. What he gained ultimately was a more profound and tested relationship with Yahweh.

As a side note, I think Job's account also destroys the notion that those blessed with material abundance must be blessed by Yah while those without must be cursed and the reverse. Trusting Yahweh is not nor should it be about gaining material wealth in this life.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#7 Posted : Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:54:21 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
The example that was rasied specifically was the testing of Job. Yahweh knowingly permitted Job who was by accounts professed fellowship with Yah and enjoyed His blessings and protection. The accusation being that this testing included not only the loss of wealth but the tragic loss of his family. The charge being that Yah's permitting Hallel to inflict such devestating loss makes Yah as "guilty" in harming Job's family as Hallel himself.

I see that permitting this testing resulted in / exposed Job's wife cursing Yahuweh, while Job refused to do so saught answers to troubling questions. I haven't studied Job for too long now but thought he found comfort and satisfaction not in an explanation but in experiencing the presence of Yahweh Himself.

The difference I noted between Yahweh and Hallel's actions seems to be that while Yah knowingly permitted severe and painful loss and suffering to Job, Hallel eagerly wanted to punish Job for his devotion to Yah and no doubt wanted to discourage Job to the point of destroying Job's relationship with and trust in Yah, soul murder. What Job lost while vast were all ultimately temporal. What he gained ultimately was a more profound and tested relationship with Yahweh.



dude, i totally enjoyed reading that.

Offline bitnet  
#8 Posted : Friday, January 16, 2009 7:21:19 PM(UTC)
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Shabbat Shalom,

Choice. That's what it comes down to. How we respond and how we lead our lives. Sometimes we win a lot, sometimes we don't have a lot, but that should not affect our ultimate decision on whether we want to live eternally with Abba Yahweh or not. There are many people who believe that it was not their choice to be born in this world, and billions think/thought that they will be reincarnated as mice, dogs, cats, insects, untouchables, etc. suffering continuously until they achieve the "ultimate state". So they blame the Creator, saying that it was not their choice to be born into this vicious cycle. While we may not have had a say when we were born, whether to a wealthy family in impoverished Ethiopia or in the slums of wealthy USA, we can have a decision now on whether we want to be born into The Eternal Family.

Those of us called to listen to this message have heard the best news! We do not have to "deal" with our sins (by buying prayers and indulgences) nor keep blaming the adversary, who although admittedly at fault, is not the ultimate arbiter of your destiny. The idea that it is the Creator's fault we have temptation around us lacks credibility. It is because evil exists in a vacuum, just like there is no such thing as absolute cold but absolute absence of heat, or absolute darkness is actually absolute absence of light. We need to be proactive building up our character according to His Word so that we may function well in eternity and leave the business of forgiveness of our sins to our Messiah.

The Creator is definitely not culpable but has responsibly provided a way out for us.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Cyn  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:32:39 PM(UTC)
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you know i ve been wrestling with this for some time
i believe 1 timothy 4, 10 has something to say about this
εἰς τοῦτο γὰρ κοπιῶμεν καὶ ἀγωνιζόμεθα, ὅτι ἠλπίκαμεν ἐπὶ θεῷ ζῶντι, ὅς ἐστιν σωτὴρ πάντων ἀνθρώπων, μάλιστα πιστῶν. (for those of you with more knowledge of greek)
the litteral english translation goes
"to this for we labour and struggle, because we have set hope on God a living, who is saviour of all men, especially of believers."

some "denominations" make this to mean that every soul will be saved and i quote "sooner or later" which if you ask me is just not true...
i have come to think of it as follows. God offered a choice (to angels as to men) and we are responsible for choosing the wrong thing. Yahweh on the other hand is responsible for withholding the full consequences of our actions. This is only possible with his sacrifice where he justified his actions (literally). so Yahshua is the saviour of everyone to the extent that he withholds his wrath to a certain degree for the time he choses.

so to get back on topic Yahweh actually purchased the ongoing transgressions of men and fallen angels including lucifer to give them time to repent (on that note isnt he gloriously mercifull?)

those who choose to do so and believe will even be saved from all of his wrath, save what little we are privileged to endure here on earth


that's all i got, tell me what you think of this interpretation of mine

Offline Theophilus  
#10 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2009 1:03:59 PM(UTC)
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Cyn wrote:
you know i ve been wrestling with this for some time
i believe 1 timothy 4, 10 has something to say about this
εἰς τοῦτο γὰρ κοπιῶμεν καὶ ἀγωνιζόμεθα, ὅτι ἠλπίκαμεν ἐπὶ θεῷ ζῶντι, ὅς ἐστιν σωτὴρ πάντων ἀνθρώπων, μάλιστα πιστῶν. (for those of you with more knowledge of greek)
the litteral english translation goes
"to this for we labour and struggle, because we have set hope on God a living, who is saviour of all men, especially of believers."

some "denominations" make this to mean that every soul will be saved and i quote "sooner or later" which if you ask me is just not true...
i have come to think of it as follows. God offered a choice (to angels as to men) and we are responsible for choosing the wrong thing. Yahweh on the other hand is responsible for withholding the full consequences of our actions. This is only possible with his sacrifice where he justified his actions (literally). so Yahshua is the saviour of everyone to the extent that he withholds his wrath to a certain degree for the time he choses.

so to get back on topic Yahweh actually purchased the ongoing transgressions of men and fallen angels including lucifer to give them time to repent (on that note isnt he gloriously mercifull?)

those who choose to do so and believe will even be saved from all of his wrath, save what little we are privileged to endure here on earth


that's all i got, tell me what you think of this interpretation of mine



Hello Cyn and while I see this is not your first post would like to say welcome to the forum. Part of me wishes for Universalism, or that everyone gains the afterlife they imagine rather than choose for themselves. Most Pagans I know anticipate an afterlife for themselves apart from Yahuweh which I agree with is true, but also expect a paradise to their own liking, which while it would be nice for them were it so, see no evidence in Scripture that it is.

For humans, having imperfect knowledge of Yahwuweh, indeed most who reject Him don't even believe He exists, and therefore have a low regard for Scripture. With respect to fallen malakim / angels like Halal ben Shachar benefit from vastly greater awareness of Yahuweh and therefore the consequences of there actions. To provide humankind with the level of awareness to the reality of Yahuweh and the consequences of rejecting an eternal relationship with him would be coercive and deprive humanity to ability to free seek a loving relationship with Yah rather than consequence avoiding obligation. Note that this suggests to me that Yah doesn't seek love but only obedience from malakim / angels. It is for these reasons in part that that the three doors or eternal outcomes makes sense to me.

Did I address your post to your satisfaction Cyn?
Offline Cyn  
#11 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2009 2:48:04 PM(UTC)
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You know i wanted to thank all you guys for the warm welcome, might as well do it here.

Thanks Theophilus, you have definitely shed a new light on the matter.
we are drastically drifting offtopic so to get back to it
is god culpable for satan's actions
in his view i think yes, to the degree he allows anything he wills it.
When he answered Lucifer in Job 2: 3
..., altough you (this is Satan) incited Me (Yahweh) against him (Job), to destroy him without cause.

God identifies his actions with those of Lucifer.
Not that this poses any problem, every breath we breathe is a gift and if he were to take them away he remains just.

Offline Yah Tselem  
#12 Posted : Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:20:14 AM(UTC)
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Ok, so my kids brought up an interesting question about this subject of Halal's actions. I was explaining the difference between messengers and men and how we have free will and messengers do not have free will because they are created to carry out orders. So my kid's question was, if messengers(angels) have no free will then how did Halal(Satan) choose to try to be better than Yahweh and to be worshipped and got kicked out of heaven along with a whole bunch of other messengers who chose to follow him even though they never had free will? Maybe I'm missing something simple, so please enlighten.. : - o
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#13 Posted : Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:51:45 AM(UTC)
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Well there is a difference between free will and freedom of thought. Yada explains his idea in a recent show and I think I agree with it. The idea of the army structure - follow orders or be punished is not free will. Our free will grants us the ability to choose Yah or not, the being like Halal do not have that liberty. They were designed to serve - as far as we know, remember our knowledge of them is limited, Halal's exclusion from Yah's presence was the result of disobeying orders.

Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline James  
#14 Posted : Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:41:56 AM(UTC)
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I agree with Robski. The difference is Free-Will vs Choice. The ability to choose, is not free will. Free will is the ability to choose, with out fear of punishment. We have the free will to not choose Yahweh, and if we do not choose him, our natural death will be the end. This is not punishment, nor is it reward, it's simply nature. The spiritual messengers do not have this, if they choose to disobey Yahweh just once, that is it, they are cast down and out. We can choose to disobey Yahweh a million time, and he will still forgive us, and accept us. As long as we are not engaged in leading others away from him, then we receive no punishment for our actions.

At least that is how I see it.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline bitnet  
#15 Posted : Friday, September 25, 2009 1:57:51 AM(UTC)
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Shabbat Shalom,

Is Adam culpable for Cain slaying Abel? Is your father culpable for the crimes you commit? Hmmm... tough one that... perhaps some responsibility but definitely not culpable.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline James  
#16 Posted : Friday, September 25, 2009 3:07:45 AM(UTC)
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bitnet wrote:
Shabbat Shalom,

Is Adam culpable for Cain slaying Abel? Is your father culpable for the crimes you commit? Hmmm... tough one that... perhaps some responsibility but definitely not culpable.

The one argument that I have heard that was valid, was that God could be guilty of a crime of omission, because he was capable of stopping it and did nothing. But God does not interfere in free-will, and to do something to stop it, would violate free will. now is Gods "inability" to violate free will, self-imposed or is he incapable of it. I lean toward self imposed, because there are instances where it appears that God has revoked someones free will, i.e. Pharaoh, Yahweh hardened his heart to hasten the exodus.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline SsosPeter  
#17 Posted : Saturday, February 20, 2010 1:04:53 AM(UTC)
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Shalom Shabat
Well this post may appear to be a little old but still would make my point but i stand corrected. As the people above have put it, יהוה does not interfere where a creation has free will, to decide as there are consequences to every decision. Of all creatures, there are only two that were given free will, and their choices will be judged right or wrong. These Creatures are Mankind and the Kerubim. So Satan was a Kerub and so had a right depending on what he had seen of יהוה. You see even the Kerub in the Garden of Eden had a choice to go and inquire of יהוה as to what to do with Adam even though he had been told not to let him in the garden (for those of you who have read the book of Adam and Hawah you find this there).

Now one thing i fear and would warn about please!
The new agers, and those involved wish Satan are trying to paint a bad picture towards יהוה. They tell people if יהוה was good He wouldn't have put there sickness, cause people to go hungry and other sufferings. They try to tell people that יהוה is to blame!
Look at this closely; i was discussing with some one that Armageddon spoken of in the bible may not be literally as a war of nuclear warfare, and stuff like that but All mankind united and rejecting יהוה and opposing him because of the sufferings people have faced. This would in the end, as scripture puts it, provoke יהוה to bring judgment on Mankind because he has allowed deception of the devil to turn away from the Maker. This is what the anti-messiah system is driving mankind to and i fear that even many professed Christians still ask those scooby questions like Why did יהוה allow A,B,C,D,... to happen? This is all in a way to try to accuse יהוה.
That's my warning, please don't fall prey of this Vice, which is one of the many Vices of the enemy.
Shalom
Offline lassie1865  
#18 Posted : Saturday, February 20, 2010 7:10:46 AM(UTC)
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Once my five-year-old son asked me: "Mom, why did God create Satan if He knew in advance that Satan would sin?" While I thought about how I could possibly answer this question appropriately for a five-year-old, my son spoke up and said: "Oh, I know; God made Satan so that God would know who really loved Him."

"God's ways are perfect and just; the folly of God is far more intelligent than the greatest intelligence of men."

Blessings,

Lassie1865
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