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Offline blakewinn  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:38:40 PM(UTC)
blakewinn
Joined: 9/29/2008(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: marshall, tx

A few days ago I was browsing the little Jewish section at a local Books-A-Million. I looked at a couple of books by Rabbi Telushkin, then began examining the bibles they had.

There was the usual JPS Tanakhs, and a few Torah's with commentary, and some of the Neviim and Ketuvim separate.

I already have a commentary and Torah, so I reached for one that said, "Complete Jewish Bible". I assume it's complete because it contains Torah, Neviim, and Kutuvim in a single volume. After flipping through it, I notice some extra books with Jewish sounding names such as "Matitiyau" and "Yochanon". I realize that this isn't a jewish bible at all, but a Christian one with Hebraized names for the NT.

The book said nothing of this on the cover, or in the front of the book.

I could've bought this book, and not realized until i got home it was Christian.

This is an outrage to me.

Why do Christian ministries do this? Why do they try to deceive uneducated Jews?
The Mormons, while annoying sometimes always say, "Do you want to hear about J-e-sus C-hri-st?" so you know what they are up too.

It's one thing to try to reach people with your message, but if you have to lie and deceive to do so is it even worth it? Be straight up about it! What do you guys think?


Why do you accept the NT when it's written in Greek, contains antisemitism, and was canonized as Scripture by a non-jewish, totally Christian council? It makes no sense. Even if you give stuff Jewish names it doesn't make them Jewish. I could call Z-e-u-s Schlomo and it still doesn't change the fact its a pagan god.
Offline bitnet  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:14:55 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom Blake,

It is disappointing that the publishers did not label their book properly causing distress to someone like you. The Catholics also have extra books compared to the ones commonly used by other Christians, but it usually does not cause the same outrage as it did in you.

As for the books of Mattityahu and Yahuchanan, they are not anti-Semitic. In fact, they reveal that a Jew, a Yahudym of the line of Dawid, shall be our Moschiach and that He has not passed any judgement against Israel and instead said: "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do." This applies to every person on this earth. Some Karaites are learning that Yahushua (or Yeshua as you may have been taught) sounds very much like a Karaite in that every teaching of was of Scripture, of the Tanakh. He differs from the mainstream because there is no reliance on the Oral Law. Does that make Yahushua anti-semitic? No, it does not. People have misconstrued Scripture by themselves, regardless of language. As a former Catholic, I had never held any Jew in contempt but always thought of them as relatives in the house of God.

In case you did not know, this website forum that you have posted this complaint to comprises believers of Yahweh who rely strongly on the Tanakh and upon the writings of the disciples of Yahushua. We do not hate Jews, nor blame them for everything that is wrong in this world. In fact, we look forward to a day when Yisra'el shall live in peace with Yahweh on the throne! We observe the Torah, keep the Feasts of Yahweh, and do not eat pork or shellfish. We also do not bow to the decrees of the rabbis nor the priests and pastors of the churches. If you want to know more about us, read the books on Yada Yahweh. You may be in for a surprise.

As a footnote, archaelogists are discovering that the book of Mattityahu may have originally been written in Hebrew and subsequently translated into Aramaic, Greek and perhaps Latin. More shall be revealed in due time. As for the other NT books known to be written in Greek, it has been twisted to cause severe distress to Jews but Shaul/Paul was not anti-Semitic nor anti-Torah. The same goes for Ya'acob and Yahudah. In fact, all the NT writers were Torah-observant Jews!
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, October 1, 2008 2:57:05 AM(UTC)
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I have to agree with you Blake, there is alot of deception - some of the time its people trying to hard and trampling on other peoples feelings, other times its just pure deception. As for the books and names in the "New Testiment". Most of them were from a Jewish background and so are actually Hebraic names, one of the largest changes for names in the "New Testiment" (other than Jesus Christ) is the book of James, which should actually be Yacob - (or if we are gunning for an english equivilent - Jacob).

As for what Bitnet said - as always I have to agree as well... Christianity has really bent and twisted the message in the WHOLE of Scripture to its own means, not just the NT.

I would be very interested in what you think of YadaYahweh.com :)
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Matthew  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, October 1, 2008 3:38:13 AM(UTC)
Matthew
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Welcome to the forum Blake, I did read your initial thread but will post my welcome here!

If it's any consolation, the Complete Jewish Bible was translated by Jew (well a Messianic Jew), a guy called David H. Stern. Check out this short article on wiki about him. Here is another article that I found interesting.

But I do share you concern Blake! Christians shouldn't be deceiving to try lead people to Messiah. Some of us are only now awaking to errors found in the English translations, and using the original names of the patriarchs, prophets and apostles to us is a breath of fresh air. Take for instance the biggest fraud in history, which was the removal of Elohim's Name of Yahuweh (YHWH, Yahweh) and was replaced with Baals title and name, that of Lord. We love to call on the Name of Yahuweh, when in the past we were calling on the LORD. People who have come to this knowledge have wanted to then subistitute the English names throughout the Scriptures with "Jewish" names, what we could actuall say to be their original names which their parents gave them. So when this David Stern discovered Yahushua (which he calls Yeshua) as Messiah he probably didn't want to call the Apostles by English names either, especially not wanting to call on the Messiah by the corrupted name of Jesus. Hence, he started his work of changing names throughout the Scriptures.

We now await the Day when Yah will remove from the lips the names of the Baals and Israel will call on Yah as her husband. Hosea 2:16-17.

Knowing His Name has lead us to Torah!

In fact, Yahushua upheld Torah, and taught Torah, and said with His own lips that Torah (and the Prophets) will not be done away with until heaven and earth pass away.

Edited by user Wednesday, October 1, 2008 5:35:03 AM(UTC)  | Reason: A few grammar mistakes, plus I gave David Stern a capital H when using the pronoun he!

Offline blakewinn  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, October 1, 2008 2:13:22 PM(UTC)
blakewinn
Joined: 9/29/2008(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: marshall, tx

bitnet wrote:
Shalom Blake,

It is disappointing that the publishers did not label their book properly causing distress to someone like you. The Catholics also have extra books compared to the ones commonly used by other Christians, but it usually does not cause the same outrage as it did in you.


That's because Catholics and Protestants are both Christians. Some Protestants use the Apocrypha as well, and the Bible is clearly labled that it includes the Apocrypha. The writer and publisher of the falsey named "Complete Jewish Bible" purposely made the book to seem Jewish to deceive booksellers and customers.

Quote:
As for the books of Mattityahu and Yahuchanan, they are not anti-Semitic.


Really? Then why does John call us children of the devil? (John 8:44-47) (Matthew 12:34)
Why does Matthew portray the Jews and their children as having murdered Jesus? (Matthew 27:25) Why does John constantly portray the enemies of Jesus as "The Jews"? That's just a little sample of the antisemitism.

Quote:
In fact, they reveal that a Jew, a Yahudym of the line of Dawid....


Yehudym/Yehudim is a plural. The singular form would be Yahudi.

Quote:
shall be our Moschiach and that He has not passed any judgement against Israel and instead said: "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do." This applies to every person on this earth. Some Karaites are learning that Yahushua (or Yeshua as you may have been taught) sounds very much like a Karaite in that every teaching of was of Scripture, of the Tanakh.


Uhm, any Karaite uniformly rejects any addition to Scripture. Since they even reject rabbinical oral traditions they certainly reject the New Testament and additions from Christian tradition. The Karaites may have been descendants intellectually of the Tzaddikim (Sadducee) movement in 1st Century Judaism. The gospels speak lowly of Sadducees and Pharisees.

Quote:
He differs from the mainstream because there is no reliance on the Oral Law. Does that make Yahushua anti-semitic? No, it does not. People have misconstrued Scripture by themselves, regardless of language. As a former Catholic, I had never held any Jew in contempt but always thought of them as relatives in the house of God.


Actually, Jesus differs in many more ways then the rejection of the Oral Torah. I don't think all Christians are antisemitic, and many of them are good people who have a share in the world to come.


Quote:
As a footnote, archaelogists are discovering that the book of Mattityahu may have originally been written in Hebrew and subsequently translated into Aramaic, Greek and perhaps Latin. More shall be revealed in due time. As for the other NT books known to be written in Greek, it has been twisted to cause severe distress to Jews but Shaul/Paul was not anti-Semitic nor anti-Torah. The same goes for Ya'acob and Yahudah. In fact, all the NT writers were Torah-observant Jews!


No archaeology exists that supports that idea. Also, Paul not antisemitic? Hah. Ever read 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16?
Offline blakewinn  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, October 1, 2008 5:36:56 PM(UTC)
blakewinn
Joined: 9/29/2008(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: marshall, tx

Matthew wrote:
Welcome to the forum Blake, I did read your initial thread but will post my welcome here!

If it's any consolation, the Complete Jewish Bible was translated by Jew (well a Messianic Jew), a guy called David H. Stern. Check out this short article on wiki about him. Here is another article that I found interesting.

But I do share you concern Blake! Christians shouldn't be deceiving to try lead people to Messiah. Some of us are only now awaking to errors found in the English translations, and using the original names of the patriarchs, prophets and apostles to us is a breath of fresh air. Take for instance the biggest fraud in history, which was the removal of Elohim's Name of Yahuweh (YHWH, Yahweh) and was replaced with Baals title and name, that of Lord. We love to call on the Name of Yahuweh, when in the past we were calling on the LORD. People who have come to this knowledge have wanted to then subistitute the English names throughout the Scriptures with "Jewish" names, what we could actuall say to be their original names which their parents gave them. So when this David Stern discovered Yahushua (which he calls Yeshua) as Messiah he probably didn't want to call the Apostles by English names either, especially not wanting to call on the Messiah by the corrupted name of Jesus. Hence, he started his work of changing names throughout the Scriptures.

We now await the Day when Yah will remove from the lips the names of the Baals and Israel will call on Yah as her husband. Hosea 2:16-17.

Knowing His Name has lead us to Torah!

In fact, Yahushua upheld Torah, and taught Torah, and said with His own lips that Torah (and the Prophets) will not be done away with until heaven and earth pass away.


Offline bitnet  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, October 1, 2008 10:29:15 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

Thanks Blake, for correcting my Hebrew. Still picking it up slowly...

As for the verses you mentioned, please do not take it out of context. It was directed towards those who were actively involved. The Christians were wrong to take offence against Jews in general, for their own Christ (Moschiach) is a Yahudi. It is ridiculous to hate Jews as they would be hating the relatives of their Saviour. But then again, people always have a funny and detrimental way of taking Scripture in vain for their own purposes.

And just like you, some Karaites also do read the NT and that is why they are beginning to understand that Yahushua did keep the Torah, but not according to the Oral Law. They, of course, do not recognise any other writing but in time they shall learn how to discern the Moschiach from the Tanakh itself. We do not look down upon either Rabbinic or Karaite Yahudym but hope that we can learn Truth together. There is too much division between those who seek to follow Yahweh.

There's one thing here that does cause some concern: the removal of the Name. We at this site love the HaShem of our Creator: YHWH. We call Him Yahweh or Yahuweh. If you feel offended at this... you'll have to deal with it. We know that Scripture has been tampered with and the Name has been replaced, and superstitions and bad habits have crept in. We are sad that this has happened. But we know that one day soon He shall again reveal Himself as at Sinai and shout down His Name for all to hear.

For instance:
I am Yahweh, that is My Name, and my esteem I do not give to another, nor My praise to idols.
(Yeshayahu 42:8)

You do not bring the name of Yahweh your Elohim to naught, for Yahweh does not leave the one unpunished who brings His Name to naught.
(Shemoth 20:7)

I do not suppose to know much about archaelogical developments regarding the Brit Chadashah other than what I saw by Nehemia Gordon on The Hebrew Yahshua vs The Greek Jesus. I am waiting for more information about this as well and understand that the art of uncovering treasures shall be with us till the end of days.

The writing of Shaul/Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16... who is persecuting whom? Paul did not encourage hate at all. If anything, in 2 Thessalonians 3:15 he also says not to regard unbelievers as enemies but as brothers still. If not for Paul, us gentiles may not have heard of the saving grace of Elohim Yahweh. Those who twist words to remove the Creator from His creation are the ones who shall have to deal with Elohim Yahweh later. But we are also told in so many places by Yahushua not to hate but to love.

Over the past two millenia too much as been done in hate and not love. People have blindly followed their leaders and got themselves into wars and more hate. Few seem to want to decide themselves whom to follow. They'd rather leave their fate in the hands of priests, rabbis and imams. This site is for the discerning. Those who truly seek the Creator and His Way. There is only one Creator, and His Name is YHWH. I do not think that any real believer shall dispute this, and if not, why not treat this place like a shul to share and learn more?
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline shalom82  
#8 Posted : Thursday, October 2, 2008 11:51:07 AM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
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Location: Penna

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The term "Jews" can refer to two groups: the civil and religious leadership or more generally the Jewish populace. It serves one well to keep a mind of that when reading the Besorim and letters.

Though the examples that show the distinction between the two are numerous, I will only offer one pertinent and clear example for the sake of brevity.

Quote:
Mt 23.37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."
- the difference between the leadership ("you") and the people ("your children").

Now, it's a commonly held view, especially among the Yahudim and "progressive" churches that the "New Testament" is anti-semitic. Did they ever consider the feelings of the poor gentiles?

Quote:
“And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? (Mt 5.45, Yahushua)
And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. (Mt 6.7, Yahushua)
“Do not be anxious then, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘With what shall we clothe ourselves?’ 32 “For all these things the Gentiles eagerly seek; (Matt 6.31, Yahushua)
And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer. (Mt 18.17, Yahushua)
But Yahushua called them to Himself, and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 “It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, (Matt 20.25, Yahushua)
For He will be delivered to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon, (Lk 18.32)
It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles (1 Cor 5.1, Paul)
No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God (1 Cor 10.20, Paul)
We are Jews by nature, and not sinners from among the Gentiles; (Gal 2.15)
This I say therefore, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, (Eph 4.7, Paul)
that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God (1 Thess 4.4, Paul)
For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousals, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. (1 Pet 4.3, Peter)


If you wanna pick a fit about the Besorim's treatment of Yahudim, if you choose to ignore the fact that the vast preponderance of negative statements about "Jews" are actually talking about leadership, then you are going to have to deal with it's statements about the Goyim. It is not hating on Yahudim or encouraging hatred of them by the believing community. It does not lift up one group at the expense of the other. Christianity has no accomplice in the "NT" when it comes to it's own sins against the Jewish people. To say so, is to do the same thing that the religious establishment of Romish Christianity did...to take the words and intents of Yahushua and his Talmidim grossly out of context.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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