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Offline Matthew  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, August 5, 2008 1:54:37 PM(UTC)
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Acts 8:14-17 "And when the emissaries who were at Yerushalayim heard that Shomeron had received the Word of Elohim, they sent Kepha and Yohanan to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them to receive the Set-apart Spirit, for He had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been immersed in the Name of the Master Yahsha. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Set-apart Spirit."

I always thought we receive the Set-Apart Spirit upon confessing one's sins but this passages indicates that there is a gap between confessing one's sins and receiving the Spirit. What happens if one dies between the two periods, is one's belief enough because that comes with confessing of sins so I assume it does. But in the case of the Rapture, not having the oil could be a problem even though a person has confessed their sins.

Offline Theophilus  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, August 6, 2008 5:23:41 AM(UTC)
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Interesting question Matthew, I'll be interested to see what others write, and need to do some digging myself. The passage I look to first is John chapter 3. If I understand your question asked in another way, are you asking whether it is possible to confess one's sins and hear of Yahushua (as the Acts 8 passage indicates) without yet trusting and relying upon Messiah's atonment and thus yet be indwelt by the set-apart Spirit (as I suspect may be what is being described there in)?

My first thought is that it could. It is one thing to acknowledge one's missing the mark and falling short; it's another to hear of Yahushua; it may be another to trust and rely upon Messiah's atonement and revcived the set-apart Spirit.
Offline bitnet  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:18:47 PM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Normally I do not tackle such issues head on but I'll try to sharpen myself on this.

In as much as the people at Shomeron had heard of the deeds of the Word of Elohim, they still did not fully comprehend the real extent and meaning of The Sacrifice. Just knowing of the events, by itself, does not mean that one is truly converted and receives the Ruach HaQodesh. But the act of listening intently and accepting that what transpired may concern them directly showed that the people were ready to turn away from falsehood and towards the saving grace of Messiyah Yahushua. This act of listening and paying heed to what happened in Yahrushalayim was an act of, or in readiness of, repentance. After the emissaries visited them, they truly understood that their sins could be forgiven if they accepted the Sacrifice of Messiyah Yahushua and that they could receive the gift of the Ruach HaQodesh. That was when the emissaries prayed and laid hands on them and when they received the Set-Apart Spirit.

Reading it through, there is no mention of water baptism. The next few verses concerning Shim'on's attempt to buy the power of bestowing the Set-Apart Spirit may also indicate that this particular event happened to expose Shim'on, and the act of buying into a position to dispense grace, something that almost all religions do via their priests and clerics! So I read it as an indication that we are to approach whomever has shown interest in the Word and share with them freely the Good News of the Kingdom of Yahweh. Water baptism is optional, but accepting payment for dispensing what is His to give this is an abomination in the eyes of Elohim Yahweh who already paid the highest price for all mankind. Therefore the great commission to spread the Good News is so that people may repent, believe and receive the gift of the Set-Apart Spirit and understand that the Kingdom of Yahweh is at hand.

Another thing that I thought of is that sometimes people need an act of affirmation, and that water baptism or the laying of hands are such acts. Neither act can save anyone but it defines a moment in time. Just like the act of sending a cloth of anointing to those in need of healing. There is no power in the cloth to heal, but it is a signal that Elohim Yahweh shall do as He promises, and that we should follow Him always.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Matthew  
#4 Posted : Thursday, August 7, 2008 3:06:50 AM(UTC)
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bitnet wrote:
Shalom,
In as much as the people at Shomeron had heard of the deeds of the Word of Elohim, they still did not fully comprehend the real extent and meaning of The Sacrifice. Just knowing of the events, by itself, does not mean that one is truly converted and receives the Ruach HaQodesh. But the act of listening intently and accepting that what transpired may concern them directly showed that the people were ready to turn away from falsehood and towards the saving grace of Messiyah Yahushua. This act of listening and paying heed to what happened in Yahrushalayim was an act of, or in readiness of, repentance. After the emissaries visited them, they truly understood that their sins could be forgiven if they accepted the Sacrifice of Messiyah Yahushua and that they could receive the gift of the Ruach HaQodesh. That was when the emissaries prayed and laid hands on them and when they received the Set-Apart Spirit.


Think you nailed it there bit! They had been immersed in the name of Yahshua, as in they had heard the message of salvation and all about His walk on earth. I think I got caught up with the word "baptize" in other English versions in the formal sense of the act of being baptized in water, and I read this verse also in that light so just flew over the word "immersed" in this version without actually stopping to ponder the difference.

It makes sense that the guy who died next to Yahushua on the staurus was to enter into paradise just by asking Yahshua to remember him, that guy must have felt so worthless next to Him and that's the humilty from us He seeks.

Also, during Moses' day certain people were empowered with the Spirit to carry out certain tasks to make the temple.

Psalm 51:10-12 "Create in me a clean heart, O Elohim, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Set-apart Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your deliverance, and uphold me, Noble Spirit!"

In this psalm David asks God not to take the Set-Apart Spirit from him, which indicates that he too was empowered by the Spirit. I still get confused concerning the role of the Spirit in the Old and Renewed Covenants, in regards to those who received the Spirit and who did not, could a person in the Old Covenant be saved without receiving the Spirit?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#5 Posted : Thursday, August 7, 2008 1:27:19 PM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:


Think you nailed it there bit! They had been immersed in the name of Yahshua, as in they had heard the message of salvation and all about His walk on earth. I think I got caught up with the word "baptize" in other English versions in the formal sense of the act of being baptized in water, and I read this verse also in that light so just flew over the word "immersed" in this version without actually stopping to ponder the difference.

It makes sense that the guy who died next to Yahushua on the staurus was to enter into paradise just by asking Yahshua to remember him, that guy must have felt so worthless next to Him and that's the humilty from us He seeks.

Also, during Moses' day certain people were empowered with the Spirit to carry out certain tasks to make the temple.

Psalm 51:10-12 "Create in me a clean heart, O Elohim, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Set-apart Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your deliverance, and uphold me, Noble Spirit!"

In this psalm David asks God not to take the Set-Apart Spirit from him, which indicates that he too was empowered by the Spirit. I still get confused concerning the role of the Spirit in the Old and Renewed Covenants, in regards to those who received the Spirit and who did not, could a person in the Old Covenant be saved without receiving the Spirit?


To be honest - I dont think there was a difference between "new" and "old" in regards to the Set-Apart Spirit. It think She indwelt in those who had relationship, like David for example.

Edited by user Thursday, August 7, 2008 3:06:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline BiynaYahu  
#6 Posted : Thursday, August 7, 2008 2:29:59 PM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:


To be honest - I dont think there was a difference between "new" and "old" in regaurds to the Set-Apart Spirit. It think She indwelt in those who had relationship, like David for example.


Abba Yahuwah's grace and shalom everyone,

I agree with you Rob, and take it further. I don't think there is any difference between the old and renewed covenant at all. Except for the fact that we are looking at the sacrifice as fulfilled rather looking forward to it. But, I think a member of the Ecclesia would find Abraham, and David very good, and very similar (to oneself) company.
Someone who does not dearly love or welcome, entertain, look fondly upon or cherish people with strong affection or highly esteem them with great favour, goodwill or benevolence, be loyal to or greatly adore them has not known or understood, perceived or realized, noticed or discerned, discovered or observed, experienced or ascertained, learned about or distinguished, comprehended, acknowledged or recognized God*, for concerning this, God* is and exists as brotherly love and affection, good will, esteem and benevolence.
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