Welcome!

Nope you are not breaking the rules. :)

I shall have a read and see what I think.

Thank you both Rob and kp for your welcome. I am sure I am going to be enjoying myself whilst I am in this place - for as long as I am in this place.

I'm sorry kp, whilst I entirely agree with you that YAH will deal with all the evil in the world in HIS chosen time and manner, I have to admit that I have not much of an idea about this 'preterist' thing that you speak of. At the same time, I have to admit that as far as the 'rapture' is concerned, I am way out in the cold on this one. I have never been able to accept this as being scriptural in any way. At the very least, the entire history of how this belief came into being must cause it to come under enormous suspicion. Please don't get me wrong here - I am NOT attacking anyone who believes in it - I just do NOT and can NOT.

As far as prophecy is concerned, I guess it is fair to say that the vast majority of the authentic variety throughout history was much less than fully understood by the folk that the prophecy was all about, until after the event at least - when they could stand back and look at it in hindsight; and even then only a precious few could actually see it for what it is/was. Therefore my friend; I choose to avoid condemning what I am yet to fully understand, and I am less than qualified to condemn anybody on the basis of my limited understanding right now - and their courage to put their head on the chopping block, so to speak.

After all, wasn't it Yahshua who said "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here." (Matt 12:41)? So on that basis, I choose to be less judgmental and more open eared, for when the time comes for the pennies to be counted, I would rather be on the side of those who chose to soften their stance a little and listen rather than those who were too stony hearted in their prejudices to do likewise. I am speaking generally here - about myself only.

Also, I am not sure what part of scripture you get this from; (Quote) "the Beast won't be revealed until Yahshua's called-out assembly is, well, called out". If you would like to advise me further on this, I would be extremely thankful to you.

In the end, I guess it will only take a few more days for us to see whether there is any light in what these people are saying; either you or this blog prediction will be proven correct and then we might have a few more things to chew over, right? I will have a look into the website of your advice, and again thank you for your response and advice.

I have had a cursory peek into the Future Truth website and am finding it very interesting indeed. It certainly contains much information and I will seeking more over the next week or two (at least) from this source. So that is quite a positive that has come out of this conversation for me and I thank you both again, however I am still a little confused, as to something that was written above. If someone can clear this up for me, I would be very appreciative.

I had to go in search for the definition of "Preterist" - Wikipedia definition:

So now, if you would be so kind; how does a Biblical prophecy that is being predicted to be fulfilled in a few days time (future) become identified with the past - of 2000 years ago - in "the first century after Christ's birth"? I am referring here - to the person/people who made the 'future' prediction being condemned by a term that it seems is really all about people who proclaim prophecy as being well and truly previously fulfilled in the distant past rather than still future - if that isn't too convoluted a way of expressing myself?????

**Not that I have any personal fondness for the identification 'Christ'.

Welcome YAH is my FATHER!

I can recall one, no two, three, now four, now five quick passages that come to mind concerning the Rapture:

2 Thessalonians 2 - The Spirit being removed before the appearence of the Anti-Messiah. Since the Spirit is within the believers Yahweh will not remove His Spirit and leave us without the Spirit.

Edit: Also, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says the dead are raised first and then those alive are called at the same trumpet sound.

Matthew 25 - The Parable of the Ten Virgins, tells us those with Oil (The Set-Apart Spirit) will enter. This ties up with 2 Thessalonians 2 of Yahweh removing those with His Spirit first before brining destruction. He removes His Children first, not wanting anyone to fall. Notice it also links up with Matthew 24 that no one knows the day or hour of the Sign of the Coming of Man, He didn't mention just the Coming of Man but the sign of the coming of Man, meaning an event to occur that will signal His coming appearence in fullness at a later date.

Revelation 3 - Being kept from the hour of trial. This again links up with the previous verses. The 7 Churches are also in chronological order with the Philadelphians missing the Tribulation, but the Laodiceans consist of those who missed it (without the Oil in Matthew 25) who get a second opportunity and then those who turn to Messiah during the Trib.

Isaiah 57 - Both KP and Yada go into great detail describing this passage in regards to the Rapture, check out the Taruwah chapter in YY and the Getting All Caught Up chapter in FH. Notice how this links up with 1 Corinthians 15 in what Paul says not all will sleep (the Raptured) and the dead will be raised, both being changed in a twinkling of an eye. When the Event happens many will not consider it, especially the Rabbis, they won't be able to link up the disappearence of the righteous with the Word of Yahweh. There is already talk in the New Age movement that Aliens will come and abduct the troublemakers so the earth can live together in peace, in perfect harmony, pretty much what Scripture says the Lawless One will try do, bring harmony to earth under one big banner of Political Correctness, a false sense of peace.

Leviticus 14 - This is my favourite. Please read mitzvah 568 from the Ritual Purity chapter in TOM. Basically says Yahweh brings a plague to the house (world) and removes the people before the Priest (Yahshua) goes in to examine the house.

And then there's the story of Enoch (representing the Ekklessia) being taken (the righteous, also linked to Isaiah 57) before the flood comes/came to destroy the earth, while Noah and family (representing the Jews who turn to Yahweh and Gentiles who find Him, without having their heads chopped off, during this period) being kept alive. When He comes in fulness, those without His Spirit will simply disintergrate (rot, melt and dissolve) at His Coming as mentioned in Zechariah 14:12, Yada mentions this in the Kippurym chapter of YY.

And then the Feasts, all being in chronological order and being fulfilled on their exact dates with the Feast of Trumpets happening before the Feast of Atonement (His Appearence), indicating the Rapture will occur well before His appearence.

Plus, Satan decieves many at the end of the 7th Millennium and only those in their mortal state can sin, therefore some people have to survive through the Tribulation without receiving a new immortal body. The Jews and survivors who all have His Spirit will continue to live on earth in their mortal forms, repopulating the earth. At the end of the 7th Millennium they will be given a chance to choose between good and evil, the reason why Satan will be released again. This is where the Messianic community fall, they think everyone (believers) will receive immortal bodies upon His return, this theory cannot stand on its own two feet because it would then seem illogical for Yahweh to release Satan at the end for one last time to try and deceive.

Edited by user Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:00:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Shalom Yah is my Father,

Your thoughts about causing an unnecessary distraction and apology for causing hurt is unnecessary. I appreciate your candour, and being true to your thoughts, and your humility for we are meek with each other and bold in our quest to seek His Word and Will. We in this forum discuss matters as deeply as possible, and what matters at the end is not whether we are right in every doctrine but whether we are bound together in Messiyah Yahushua towards the service of each other for the glory of Abba Yahweh. Eventually you shall realise that it is not how much you know but how you interact with those whom He has revealed Himself to. At the end of time, for us when the last trumpet sounds, there will be some who have grasped so much Truth and some who have just come into the Ekklesia, but all shall be transformed through the power of His Set-Apart Spirit. So knowledge isn't the main measure, love of Yahweh and of each other are.

Thank you again Bitnet,

I am certainly growing fast in definite fondness for quite a few here, which being admittedly at the very lowest of the pecking order; I am truly thankful for. No-one understands the need for genuine warmth and belonging more than the lowliest runt of the litter.

I also very much appreciate the observation that "we ... discuss matters as deeply as possible", and whilst I have no doubt for a second in regards these words as expressed, nevertheless I must inform you that the level of depth that I usually aim at is nothing less than a seriously painful thorn in the side to most. As a result, it usually results in being a thorn in my side also, for levels of offence are often taken as a result of earnest questions from the best of loving intentions. Strange but true!

So I am praying that I will find in the long run, that yours a factual statement beyond what I have encountered in the past. In the end though, as regards being 'right in every doctrine', my Father once gave me two pieces of advice that I have never heard repeated anywhere else, but have always found them to be among the very best I've ever received.

The first being; NEVER allow myself to be seduced into seeing myself as having all the answers to so much as - even one question!

No. 2 is; Whenever I find any man who has been seduced in this way - to run as fast as I can in the opposite direction to where he is pointing.

So with such advice under my belt, I have always been a keen observer of the people around me, and have noticed that those who mostly exhibit such attitudes, seem to be in a directly proportional relationship to their being religious, which is rather a strange thing when you consider that it would be these very people who you would expect to be especially immune to such things - given that you would anticipate them to being focused on our Creator rather than the seduction that is available in abundance - from within.

In the ultimate, l have to admit that your closing sentence especially, had me very near to shedding a tear or two, being abundant with the kind of truth I have grown to love - and in my lengthening years, tend to become rather emotional over. As a result, I pray that I may permitted to repeat it often here and elsewhere - for the sake of posterity, my own reminder system, and eternity;

"So knowledge isn't the main measure, love of Yah and of each other is."

Edited by user Sunday, July 20, 2008 7:20:37 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Please understand, Yah-is-my-Father, we who frequent the forum don't consider belief in the rapture some sort of litmus test to determine if you're a child of God or not. It's just that most of us find the doctrine so obvious, and so totally in sync with Yahweh's stated plan of redemption, we (or at least, I) can't imagine what those twenty or thirty passages of scripture that lead us inexhorably to the rapture conclusion could possibly mean, if not what they seem to mean. Please don't fault us for sharing this conclusion with some "religious people." After all, they got their information the same place we did---from scripture itself.

But no, you don't have to believe in the rapture to be a child of Yahweh. Truth be told, the vast majority of Christians between the apostolic age and the middle of the twentieth century had no idea that such a thing even existed. Prophecy was either a closed book or an esoteric mystery to them---not a living truth they could see unfolding before them like the morning newspaper (as it is, or can be, to us living today). It may be telling that Daniel was told to "seal up his prophecy until the time of the end," but John was told not to seal up the Revelation's prophetic truth, for after Calvary, its fulfillment was imminent. I believe that we will comprehend what prophetic scripture teaches more and more clearly as we approach the time when we actually need it---but only if we're looking for it. That's why we're told so many times to watch. In the meantime, Bitnet and the others are right: we show Whose we are by our love toward each other, not by our cognitive prowess or scholarly credentials. After all, we could be wrong. Yahweh, however, is not.

kp

Yah is my Father,

I have read about the history of the pre-trib rapture theory and am in doubt of it also.

The expression "to shoot oneself in the foot" comes to mind!

Apology from me? Hmmmmmmmmm Ok, then - just for you my friend, and anyone else who requires such things;

To wit; Seeing it apparently serves your ego for me to do so, I will apologise - to you - for having the temerity to share - with you, something which may (or may have been) a reasonably important observation for anyone who is interested, that is. Time will tell!

I guess it is only fair to note at this point, that some have their main interest in tearing others apart when they seem at their lowest - for the purposes of their own satisfaction, in a similar manner that we witness in Mark 15:30 "Save Yourself, and come down from the cross!”; whilst in contrast; others have a solemn and thankful disposition towards the courage of others.

So if such manoeuvrings are so vitally important - there you have it!

On the other hand, I am wondering if the observation had turned out to be 100%, what your response might then have been? For as I see it, (maybe) the time frame is/was the only thing for the writer to apologise for, and I expect that we might all (by now) appreciate that it is not such a wise thing to place human time frames upon the ONE and ONLY timeless Eternal FATHER - even if they make perfect sense to one who is not himself so timeless.

Or perhaps; we might consider the people of Nineveh to also deserve an apology, for they received an observation that brought fear and light into their understanding, yet with their subsequent solemn and purified perception, the promised devastation never eventuated. Therefore it maybe is they likewise deserve a sincere apology - for being tricked into righteousness????

Grace and Shalom to all

Edited by user Saturday, July 26, 2008 3:12:10 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

It seems to me like our brother shalom82 was referring to an apology or retraction on the site.

Mike Br.

Yah is my Father,
I said that that was indeed the case. What is it that makes you think you can't take me at my word? A site or a person apologizing for predictions or prophecy that did not come to pass has many precedents. It shows that the person is responsible and honest enough to realize their words have reprocussions beyond the immediate. In this world there is so much flipancy towards the scriptures that the last thing we need is less gravity and more fodder for unbelievers to mock the believing community. I never said that I demanded or mandated or required an apology. But this is what people usually do...even the media does when they are forced to reckon with their errors...well intentioned, sincere, or not.

You talk a lot about love for each other and humility on your posts, yet you compare me to the mockers at Yahushua's crucifixion, because I simply told the facts. You did this without understanding my motives for believing a retraction would be a good thing or a necessary thing and you have the gull to say that my main interest is tearing the vulnerable apart. But I guess that was the only fair thing to do. I guess by others you mean you...you have a solemn and thankful disposition. You seem to know my motives and my experiences better than I do. You seem to know where I have been, where I am, what I have done, what I have not done, and what I have and have not believed...of all places...where we can't read sincerity or tone or usage...you jumped to conclusions. You didn't even ask for a clarification. You jumped right in calling me an infantile egomaniac.

Is it your belief that the catholic church has been "tricked into righteousness???"? You used a ridiculous example to mock me and embarrass me...so much for your slogan.

Shalom 82, my dear brother,

I have no intention of causing you any level of anxiety or embarrassment whatsoever, so I am happy for us to bring this down a notch or two, and have previously forwarded you a pm to this purpose - with a proposed olive branch. Of course, as always, it is your choice if you choose to accept it.

Whatever option you take, please understand that, despite how you may be feeling right now, I have never desired for pain of any severity in your direction, and will be more than happy to shake hands with my beloved brother and clear up any questions you may wish answered.

I will leave it in your hands and wish you much shalom until then.

Robski, you managed to squeeze that message in whilst I was writing the above, so I will now edit to include response to your message in this reply, thus;

You may be correct about my misreading, or perhaps reading a little too much into the various previous post/s. I am human after all, and as such I have been known to make the odd slight miscalculation every once in a while, and this may be a case in point.

Nevertheless, I doubt that I "took it too personally", as I never felt that I was being attacked personally, and I never had any desire for the discussion to become personal in any case. I responded in the only way I believed at the time that I could, as I was the only one responsible for the entire issue (if that is the correct word) being upon our attention in the first place.

In the end, shalom82 is free to read my pm and respond, and/or take the olive branch being humbly offered or not - as he sees fit.

Grace and peace to all.

Edited by user Saturday, July 26, 2008 3:15:22 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Thank you bitnet for your post, however I am unsure i agree with you that 'squabble' is the correct word, but even if it is, I feel on reasonably safe ground to make note that even in the daily presence of Yahshua himself, 'squabbles' broke out between the brethren.

Therefore a 'squabble' here and there is not really the point by my estimation, but rather the general attitude of walking together under the leadership of a trusted and beloved leader is. I am of course referring here to the ultimate LEADER - YAH HIMSELF!

Bitnet wrote;

Are you sure about that observation? For I thought that new wine will destroy an old wineskin every time, so the new wine really requires a brand new wineskin rather than a reconditioned old one.

Just a thought - not to be taken for argumentative purposes.

Grace and peace

Edited by user Monday, July 28, 2008 8:47:08 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Thank you brother bitnet for your message, the warm smile in which it was delivered, and the pat on the shoulder it contained. It is on these last observations, with which I would like to make a little brotherly observation towards.

Even though I still regard myself as a complete novice, nevertheless I have been doing this internet communication thing for a few years now, and have noticed something I really never expected, which I thought I would bring to your attention - for perhaps a sympathetic nod.

You refer to;

This above observation, whilst it may appear as sound and obvious enough to those within internet communities such as this, is actually for mine; perhaps a little in need of clarification. When we look at the warm personal gestures you have indicated above, we will notice that they are all physical, which is the way we, as being among the world; read such things these days - in a similar manner to a punch in the nose seemingly to be all about the physical aggressive motion, and then the physical reaction - of blood.

However, when we look again, there is something vital missing. Indeed the most essential ingredient has sadly been mislaid - for the sake of the least important, such as the blood of the last example. I am of course refering to - the SPIRITUAL!

Admittedly the punch to the nose was a dramatic enough event, even a frightening one perhaps, but it would never have been considered in the first place if something profoundly more essential - according the SPIRITUAL hadn't initially gone down in the heart of the offender. Likewise, whilst the blood is a physical repercussion, yet there is an abundantly more essential spiritual shockwave concurrently reverberating throughout the being of the offended recipient - and will continue for long after the blood has been washed away - often all the way up to that recipient's last breath.

I will refrain from offering too much more on this hypothetical observation, however I feel on reasonably safe ground to note that in this fundamentally physically focused world, the far more essential spiritual dimension of EVERYTHING is profoundly lost or close to getting there - for all of us, and perhaps none more so than those who would seek to be spiritually focused, sadly - although it is fair to note that it seems less of a problem for many at Yada Yahweh.

Therefore I have been thinking lately, about a possibility that our ETERNAL FATHER has given us this internet thing in order that we not only share and learn according an infinitely wider framework, but maybe more fundamentally to the ONE who indeed is - SPIRIT, so that we can again after all these years learn, from within a world determinedly headed off in the opposite direction - just how to get that spiritual dimension back into our foreheads. So you see my dearly beloved bitnet buddy, I am learning to well accept your spiritual comforting pat on the shoulder, and your spiritual sympathetic nod, for no other reason than YAH has removed the physical distraction that haunts me so.

Again if I may - be assured that I am MORE THAN HAPPY to accept your welcoming spiritual hug and decidedly pleasant spiritual smile, for they now mean far more to my heart than any physical alternative could ever embrace.

So, with all the spiritually reassuring pat-on-the-back metaphysical warmth and geniosity I can extend; mixed metaphors are not a so-peculiar-to-bitnet quirk, and I pray your breakfast was fulfilling in more ways than a satisfied physical hunger.


*Edit note; It has occured to me since first writing this above text - wouldn't it be an awesome thing if this is an ongoing part of the fulfilment of that promise from Ezekiel 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." It makes sense to me at least, and I have to admit - I very much appreciate it.

Grace and Shalom

Edited by user Sunday, July 27, 2008 2:08:20 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Many blessings in YAH to you AbiYah, and many thanx to you also for your supportive post and observations.

I am wondering why this forum is lacking in the undoubted blessings available to it from the means of your keyboard, for it is obvious from a simple reading of what you have written above, that you have a great deal to offer, and I am pleased to make your acquaintance.

There really is a great deal in your message that I would like to respond to, however for everyone’s sake I might stick to just a few items at this time.

Firstly, I’m not sure that there were any hurt feelings over the ‘rapture’ disagreement, or for that matter any argument. I simply made the point that I am well aware that I am out of the loop on this topic with the vast majority here, for I have never, and have no future intention to embrace it. I also made the point that I currently have no intention of upsetting anyone here by getting involved in a fight over this topic, because frankly I believe there are far more essential issues that edify - to this one which I feel will only serve to undermine.

In short (for now), even though there seems to be sufficient scriptural evidence that all the ‘saints’ - both those alive at that time and the rest - who have been resurrected for this occasion, will be removed from this planet prior to a period of total destruction of the place by fire. Even so, my personal concept of this event is markedly at variance with the widely promoted ‘rapture’. Actually, I see it as more akin to ‘as in the days of Noah’, but I ain’t about to argue it, for I agree with you, that it is NOT by any means a deal-breaker.

As far as “rejecting all things Christian”, I would have to say that truly, I would like to continue to embrace Christianity as much as possible, for I have many beautiful friends whom I still love, yet belong to this multi-conglomerate and highly inconsistent system of faith. Therefore it is my intent to remain as close theologically with them as I can. On the other hand, the more I look at the thing as a whole, the more deception and manipulation and downright unrighteousness I see encapsulated within it, so the further I am (personally) drawn away from it.

I have to admit that it somewhat concerns me at times, when I look at the comparison between where I currently sit, in what I now uphold; and where I was a year ago - much less 3 or 4 years previous – to see how apparently fluid I have become in comparison to the set-in-concrete genesis (of YIMF,) some 5 or so years ago. It concerns me that this might present as a lack of faith in the ‘ROCK of salvation’ and the ‘solid ground’ that I maybe should be standing upon.

Yet on the other hand, I really have to further admit, that I truly am thankful for now being a softer and more willing-to-accept-the-alternatives-in-others kind of fellow, without being nearly as threatened by the differences as I once was. Also I am far more settled in being ‘different’ – such as I necessarily have to submit to at times.

So I do not in any way detest the Jew, nor the Christian, nor the Islamic, nor the scientist, nor the atheist - as I no longer blindly cling to anything from any opposing sect, for it is my determined stance that absolutely everything is up for grabs, and everything needs to be proven in the fire of testing - to be free of blemish - and that goes double for everything that I might embrace from time to time.

The fire is yet to be quenched, and the refinement continues.

As for scripture being ‘the only weapon of persuasion’, I would have to disagree with you on many a ground. For scripture would appear to me as a little like a knife - where it can certainly be used by design - in preparing food for palatable consumption - for edification; yet sadly has a long history of being used towards all kinds of opposing purposes – all according to differing interpretation of it’s purpose.

For mine, a knife in the hand of a skilled surgeon is a source of the purest human artistry, yet in the hand of a murderer, is quite something else; and so it is with scripture.

The only difference being, that almost everyone who picks up a Bible believes he is the greatest surgeon alive, therefore has divine authority to mercilessly carve up anyone who disagrees - like Jack the Ripper.

Grace and peace to all.

Robski wrote: "So even with all the evidence that you have not looked at, being that you have not read YadaYahweh & Future History"
Response: Are you psychic about everyone, or just possess divine knowledge according YimF?

Robski wrote: "this seems an extreamly arrogant and "unlearning" position to be in, don't you think"
Response: So it’s your contention that there is only one ‘learned’ position on these things, and anyone who has ‘learned’ something else is arrogant?

On the other hand, do you think it perhaps could be argued that maybe it might be a little arrogant that someone might demand that I religiously behold exactly what they have previously adopted - despite what I have learned myself? Furthermore if I may ask, what is so unscriptural about; "As it was in the days of Noah" - such that I need to now unlearn?

Robski wrote: "Surely sticking your self in the unchangable camp is a little, well, religious..."
Response: It may indeed sound religious to some, and my intent may change at some point future, yet right now; I am a long way from being convinced that as a subject – this one is even worth my time worrying over. You apparently disagree, and I assure you that I am not offended in any way by this.

Robski wrote: ”curious as to your stance of being here, in a forum that is dedicated to learning...”
Response: My TEACHER is of a spiritual variety – who just happens to teach in love - wherever HIS obedient child’s willing heart may be.

My dear Robski, if it is your stance that there is a classroom of higher learning than I have nominated above, please direct me to that place, for I am unaware of it; and in response to your interest regarding the stance of YimF, I would have to say that it (my choice of stance) is to be what my TEACHER requires of, and where HE sends me - entirely in an obedient willingness.

Blessings in YAH to you.

My beloved brother,

You were doing so well, then sadly…...… But I guess tooth fairy, mystical and floral posts aside, I can assure you that my understanding is constantly under modification, via a SOURCE that is well and truly above anything otherwise nominated - which in no way implies a lesser standard for anyone else.

As we have witnessed recently on a separate thread; discussions on topics held with clenched fists, will almost always descend into an abyss - of attack and pain – especially for the one who stands against the united pack. Under such circumstances, the only winner (most often) that I can see; is unrighteousness, so I was unwilling to go there on that previous subject, and am equally unwilling on this one, because if nothing else; since my silly accident, my fists no longer clench so well.

For mine, discussion is fine, learning is blessed, and even argument to a point, is tolerable. Yet I have been (perhaps mistakenly) of the opinion that any dissension from myself on the topic of the ‘rapture’, would just get up the noses of the more settled members here, and most likely would have seen me prematurely being shown the way out.

Therefore, due to my lack of maturity in this place, my thankfulness for being permitted membership, and my respect and warmth for everyone I have so far come across; I have chosen to reserve my tongue on various topics in the interests of a community that I feel less than entitled to unsettle - as in areas where it is obviously set. I guess it could be argued that such a stance is after a fashion, short-changing my beloved brothers and sisters here, but please be assured that my choice of action is above all else - to honour the site and members.

So you see my friend, I applaud and admire Yada Yahweh, those who have set it up, those who maintain it, and all the members I have ‘met’, so even though I might to a degree vary on a topic here and there, I do not currently see any need to make unnecessary waves, or for that matter - be introduced to the 'exit'. I am here to learn whatever I can - that is from my FATHER YAH, and (if permitted) to share what I believe is from HIM – for anyone to accept or otherwise – as they see fit. No demand or expectation implied.

I do not disagree with you that wrong ideas get in from time to time – for all ‘flawed humans’, and as I am of the deepest flaws, is why I so delight in discussion of all varieties, particularly according the general topic of spiritual understanding. As such, I make no apology for ‘floral posts’, and I require none in return for any ungrammatical, misspelled, or hard-to-understand ones that may pop up from time to time.

In short then; I have no right, nor intention of shutting down any discussion on any topic, and I seek no right for such things, so therefore YimF remains as (almost) always open to hear anything new that anyone might have to say about the ‘rapture’, or anything else that might be spiritually edifying, and will aim to engage that person as best I can – in love.

Having said that, I would like to reserve - in co-operation with my FATHER; the natural human right of my own choice; as to what I select to discard, modify and/or embrace.

Shalom to you.

Edited by user Thursday, August 14, 2008 12:14:19 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Robski wrote: then sadly...???
Sadly your worthy discourse up to the final paragraph culminated after (then) descending a little, into an apparent derogatory tone.

Robski wrote: You talk the talk...
The best I can offer is the ‘talk’ that, from my keyboard I am given at any respective time. If there is better talk to come at some later date, then that will delight no-one more than YimF. In the case my friend, that this continues to be outside your personal requirements, then I’m afraid I have nothing better to offer you right now. Even so, please be assured - my warmth towards you as a my brother will not permit me to hold it against you - even if I wanted to.

Robski wrote: I'm not clenching fists, nor attacking or feeling any pain - I am mealy pointing out something that might help, that is all.
I was not writing about you as my purpose was purely generic – not meant to be directed at any individual whatsover.

The point was more an observation about the sad circumstances that develop and often take over when people become heated over any discussion, and it seems to me that in their determination (through fear) to refuse any personal shifting - but demand it of the other, will often lead to a descending into personal attack rather than dealing logically with the issue under contention.

This generally leads to much pain blended with more fear = anger, which results in the counter-attack, which almost invariably increases the ante in return. And so it goes in the world of testosterone charged ‘discussion’ in regards spiritual topics particularly – for this observation is most often witnessed as a male ‘thing’, and being a male myself, I have endured and contributed to enough of this kind of nonsense to see me through, thank you.

Robski wrote: Its not the topic that is getting up the noses of people, its the attitude you portray.
Well, I am not quite sure just how to respond to this one. My attitude is really quite a personal thing, and surely it is possible to project outwards some level of ‘attitude’, that we might feel is not where we actually live. Unfortunately, like you I have only my keyboard to express myself, which I work at doing to the best of my abilities – in the aim of clarity and love.

So I will thank you my friend, and take your supportive observation on board, and work to be a little more ‘me’ in future. On the other hand, I guess that as I am unaware of what it is about YimF that is so offensive generally, it is entirely possible that this extra effort at being ‘me’ may see YimF as growing into an even greater stench in your nostrils.

At the end of it all, I guess it is fair to note that in the world of spiritual understanding, someone will be offended by the way another might present their point/argument, but possibly it might be a little more productive if we could work towards seeing past the perhaps unpleasant foibles and idiosyncrasies of others in the interest of a greater understanding and elevated love - for all interested in such things.

Robski wrote: No one said you lacked maturity.
I was not making a statement about my age, personal levels of maturity, nor anything stated from within.

It is that; I personally see myself as lacking sufficient longevity within this forum, and therefore am reticent to unsettle the status quo – is all.

Robski wrote: Waves aren’t an issue, we don’t mind pokes or questions or points of view - the idea of the forums is to dissect what was written in the books to see if it stands up to what they claim, and if not, to edit them and grow in understanding.
A truly noble purpose if I may say so, and well explained also.

According to a previous posting; I pray that the eating of this pudding is as promised from within the recipe. I have been involved in this kind of forum before, and they all promote similar ideals to the ones above, however they seem to fall at that last hurdle – for they promise very much, and the tasting is sweet enough on the tongue, yet they can become rather bitter in the stomach. I will go no further in that analogy, but suffice to say; it doesn’t auger too well in the end.

The aim of YimF above all else is to be as trusting and obedient to YAH as I can possibly be. I know that this sounds like so many statements that we have all heard before, yet I can only put myself out there as cleanly as I can, and then it is my choice to leave the rest up to YAH – to judge, promote, and even destroy – according to HIS will.

Ultimately, I have to admit that my previous expression that (most likely) led to this latter discussion did not properly reflect my position. Truly, I have no intention to be stuck in concrete and refuse to shift - on any spiritual understanding - ever. For like you; as a Christian, I endured years of being stuck solid in the untested beliefs of others through religious observance, and I really don't wish to go back there. So, even though I have to admit that on some things I am less flexible than maybe I should be, yet I think we all have stronger beliefs about some things than others, which makes us harder to shift on those, right?

In the end, I do not mind entering into discussion on any topic from any book, as long as it is fully accepted that YimF does NOT have all the answers, and most often will only have questions. The ‘rapture’ is a case in point, for it is a topic that no matter what I have previously read, as being put up for this doctrine from scripture, almost invariably reads as basically at variance to what I have believed. So until I am convinced otherwise, I can only take what I have read (so far) as being out of sync with my understanding, which leaves me in the position of only having questions on a topic that maybe I don't fully understand.

So in the interests of ‘growth in understanding’; if you would personally like to throw a couple (at a time please) of texts at me, to see if I can commence to understanding your perspective, please feel free to do so. I assure you if I can see nothing alternative (at that time), I will happily admit to it – as long as we can agree that I can come look at it again, if something new presents itself.

Robski wrote: I'm guilty as charged with the ungrammatical and misspellings :D ;)
I was NOT referring to you, or anybody else for that matter, but another generic observation. In fact, I might add that I often find the greatest treasures from within the messiest of sources.

Robski wrote: That is the point of the forums. We are here to bounce ideas around, to rip things apart and get to that nugget of truth that might be hiding somewhere. For things like a pre-tribulation rapture argument (for example), if you can bring proper rebuttal that is from scripture and context that disproves it, then great! If not, maybe you should look at your own understanding, instead of saying things like "for I have never, and have no future intention to embrace it." because that is illogical. It’s like someone showing you evidence for the liquid form of water being changed into ice, and decided to believe it doesn’t happen, because that’s what you think.

I'm really not trying to cause any kind of rift, attack but mealy pointing out things that concern me. I don’t do PC, if its a spade I will call it a spade. It must be something to do with being an English northerner. lol.

My mother is an English northerner, so I have no trouble being extremely appreciative indeed of the frank and honest and genuine nature of anyone from that region. I can personally see nothing of lesser character in the person behind ‘Robski’.

Even so, I am left wondering why this seems to have become a seeming delving into the individual that is behind YimF? Please understand I am not complaining, and more than happy to engage you or anyone else on any subject (including YimF), and I guess it is always worth a little interest to ‘know’ something about who it is that we communicate with via such impersonal means as the internet.

Therefore I would now like to ask of you, my beloved Robski; in keeping with your genuine northern English nature – to call this spade by the most correct and lucid term, by replying to this question - In order that we may get down to the business of my FATHER; is there anything else that concerns you about YimF?


Grace and peace to you.

Edited by user Friday, August 15, 2008 2:54:12 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Actually, I related to it all as a little male bonding. Which I think can be healthy enough in the correct doses and the right atmosphere - especially if ETERNAL YAH is at the core.

Blessings in YAH.

*Note: Previous post modified to more properly reflect YimF's position.