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Offline roy  
#1 Posted : Saturday, September 13, 2008 2:24:01 AM(UTC)
roy
Joined: 6/9/2008(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Brisbane

Rev 14:4 'They are those who were not defiled with women, for they are maidens...' Is the word 'defiled' a correct translation here? Most men who marry would not consider themselves defiled by their wives. Nor, I am sure would their wives consider that they defile their husbands. Doesn't the earthly family unit reflects the family relationship Yahweh has with his set-apart. What am I missing here?
Shalom
Roy
Offline Matthew  
#2 Posted : Saturday, September 13, 2008 4:12:03 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Welcome to the forum roy! Good to have you on board!

Taken from Chapter 13 - Jerusalem Jerusalem - of Future History:
http://futurehistory.yad...ed%20with%20women#search

I've highlighted in red the part that adds clarification to your question.

kp wrote:
The angelic preacher isn’t the only way Yahweh intends to get the word out. At some point in the Tribulation, He sets aside 144,000 young Jewish men for His purposes, “sealing” them, that is, placing the mark of his ownership upon them. John witnessed their selection and sealing. After being shown a sweeping view of Tribulation torments—the first six “seal” judgments—he was shown this vignette:

“After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, ‘Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.’” (Revelation 7:1-3) I believe that John is being shown a flashback, or at least a parenthesis. “After these things I saw...” refers to the order in which he was shown things, not necessarily the order in which they will occur. The sixth seal, as we shall see, depicts the horrible realization, universal among men, that all the bad things that have been happening to the earth are actually the wrath of God. There is reason to believe mankind doesn’t figure that out until near the end. But I think what’s happening here is that before the winds of God’s judgment are released—before one blade of grass is damaged—something will be done to protect the “servants of God” from the calamity that will soon surround them.

Who are these people? “And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.” (Revelation 7:4-8) It’s amazing how many groups have come out and declared that they were these 144,000 servants of God. Never mind what scripture says; being singled out like that has a nice ring to it, don’t you think? But as long as you’re sealed by God, you cannot die. When the first Jehovah’s Witness died, he proved that their claim to this special prophetic anointing was a lie.

I don’t know how Yahweh could have made it any clearer: these are all Jews (or more correctly, Israelites) 12,000 each from twelve tribes of Israel. It doesn’t really matter if the participants know what tribe they’re from, although at some level, the record is written in their DNA. God knows who they are.

The list of tribes is a little strange. If you recall, Jacob/Israel had twelve sons, but one of them, Joseph, received a double portion of the inheritance. Joseph’s tribe was therefore split in two and named after his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. That made, for all intents and purposes, thirteen tribes; but then the tribe of Levi (Moses’ tribe) was set apart as being Yahweh’s (that is, God claimed all the firstborn of Israel, man and beast alike, but He chose to substitute the tribe of Levi for the firstborn of all the tribes—Numbers 3:12-13). So what do we see in John’s list of twelve? There’s no Ephraim, but there is a tribe of Joseph, so with Manasseh in the list their double portion remains. Levi is in the list. The tribe that’s missing is Dan.

Are the Danites extinct by the time the prophecies of Revelation get fulfilled? No: we will learn from the millennial geography lessons of Ezekiel 48 that Dan is still around—all of the tribes are. So what heinous crime did the Danites commit that got them aced out of the list? Bad things can be traced back to virtually every tribe—even Judah, Yahshua’s tribe. But if we look for what sets Dan apart from the other tribes, we soon discover a rebellious streak a mile wide. Perhaps the most famous Danite was Samson, who, like the 144,000, was gifted and set apart for God’s purposes. But Samson wasn’t known for his sensitivity to the leading of Yahweh—he was known for his headstrong and self-centered misuse of God’s gifts, an insubordinate nature that killed him in the end. Dan was the one tribe who, after being allotted their territory in Canaan, along the coast just north of Judah, decided after a time that the competition was too tough for them. So they sent spies to the far north, found a poorly defended city (Laish), invaded it, and renamed it Dan. At the same time they showed a remarkable lack of loyalty to Yahweh, embracing the idolatry of the area as soon as they arrived—and holding on to it for centuries until they were swept away by the Assyrians. The whole sordid affair is recorded in Judges 18. The Danites proved that they couldn’t be trusted with the oracles of Yahweh. Perhaps that’s why He chose not to let them participate at the end, when refusal to compromise with the world would become the greatest of virtues. My, what a long memory You have!

We see the 144,000 again a bit later in John’s narrative, this time at their moment of triumph. “Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.” (Revelation 14:1) Here we’re given more insight about their “sealing.” In this scene, Yahshua has returned in glory to the earth, and He’s seen standing on Mount Zion in Jerusalem. With Him are the 144,000; every last one of them made it through to the end of the Tribulation alive, and they’re all in town. That’s what it means to be sealed, to have Yahweh’s name written on one’s forehead—it means you’re His possession, and you’re under His protection. Is this writing visible? I have no idea. Many expositors insist that it is; I suspect that it’s not. Like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego in Daniel 3, you don’t need a tattoo on your face for God to protect you.

“And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:2-5) This is admittedly a tough one to figure out. John was just looking at a scene on the earth; has it shifted to heaven? Not exactly. I think what we’re seeing here is a rare interplay between earth and heaven. Standing there on Mount Zion with Yahshua, the 144,000 hear the audible voice of God from heaven. This is followed by the sound of the heavenly praise band, singing a song that only they can comprehend.

In these verses, we’re given a bit more information about them. Because they are described as “virgins, not defiled with women,” we can deduce that all 144,000 are men, and that most of them are young—called to this service in their teens (SF2). This is admittedly an extrapolation. The logic is that (1) because they’re on the earth, they were unsaved (for whatever reason) at the time of the rapture. (2) The chances of men being both uninterested in the things of God and remaining virgins past the age of twenty or twenty-five in the world we live in are slim. (3) The rapture would be more of an epiphany for them if they were young and impressionable; it’s an event likely to have a big impact on their spiritual outlook. (4) If there is a gap of a few years between the rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation, Jewish lads past their bar-Mitzvah but under about seventeen years old at the time of the rapture would make ideal candidates.

Interestingly, we aren’t told much in Revelation about what these folks will do. There has been speculation about 144,000 “Jewish Billy Grahams” evangelizing the earth. I wish that were true, but I don’t think it is, at least not in an organizational sense. These guys won’t be filling stadiums and televising the gospel freely to millions of homes. To get closer to the truth, try to imagine what someone with the anointing of a Jonathan Edwards or D.L. Moody would do as an individual if he found himself in Iran or Saudi Arabia. He would share the love of Christ one-on-one, hiding out from the authorities when he had to, preaching boldly on the street corners when he could, and relying on God’s grace and the shelter and supply of His people to keep him alive until tomorrow.

That’s how it will start. But the 144,000 will discover through trial and error (their trial, their adversaries’ error) that they are indeed under Yahweh’s protection—they can’t be touched. This knowledge will give them the boldness to speak out in situations that would (and will) get ordinary men killed. Some will receive their words with joy; others will reject the message. It bears mention that even though these people have Yahweh’s hedge of protection around them, that’s not necessarily true of the people who are in a position to shelter them. They will have to make a choice: to do what they know is right, despite the risks, or to play it safe.

Yahshua sent His twelve disciples out on just such a mission, giving them very clear instructions as to what to do and say. But before He was done, it was abundantly clear that His words were not just for the present group. They would apply to some extent throughout the church age, and then to the 144,000—especially to the 144,000.

“These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: ‘Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. And when you go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!’” (Matthew 10:5-15) Will the 144,000 be sent only to the lost sheep of Israel? Considering the fact that Yahweh is once again dealing with them “officially” within this seven-year period (see Daniel 9), and noting that they will all be in Jerusalem to meet Him, it seems possible, even likely, that they are. If this is the case, it would work out to roughly one witness for every one hundred Jews alive on earth at the start of the tribulation. Don’t forget, the angels have the gentiles covered.

On the other hand, their testimony will not be lost on the gentiles. Even if the 144,000 are sent only to the Jews, remember that (at least for now) half the world’s Jews live outside of Israel—among gentiles. Here’s what Yahshua said next: “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.” (Matthew 10:16-23) Clearly these are dangerous times. Gestapo tactics will be the order of the day. These witnesses of Yahweh’s can’t be killed, it’s true, but harboring one of them—even giving him a cup of cold water—can get you in big trouble with the authorities. And it won’t require anything as sophisticated as NSA electronic surveillance to catch you. All it will take is your kids, your parents, your best friend. Many will be sent “downtown” to answer a few routine questions. Many won’t come back. Harboring religious terrorists is a Federal crime, you know.

“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household! Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.” (Matthew 10:24-31) When the 144,000 start seeing their protectors getting hauled off, tried, and executed for taking them in, they might be tempted to lay low, to water down the message, to quit. Everywhere I go, people die for supporting me. Is it worth it? Yahshua is telling them to speak out boldly, regardless of the apparent consequences. This body is fragile and temporary; it matters not what happens to it. Of critical importance is the condition of the soul and the presence of the spirit. Don’t endanger people’s eternal destinies by refusing to speak out.

“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:32-39) Many twentieth-century Christians, especially in America, got very skilled at sitting on the fence, developing a knack for practicing a religion that didn’t offend anyone (except Yahweh—see Revelation 3:16). With luck, you could go through your entire professional career without anyone at work finding out you were a follower of Christ. Church and “state” were strictly separated; our jobs were given Monday through Friday, we took Saturday for ourselves, and God got a couple of hours on Sunday morning (unless the weather was really bad—or really good).

Things have changed. Now you either are or you aren’t a follower of Yahshua. (Of course, it was always that way in God’s eyes). Don’t take me wrong here, but the age of grace is past. Yes, Yahshua is still the only door to the Father, but now that the Tribulation has begun, what you think doesn’t count for much any more. It’s what you do that will identify you.

“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. “He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.” (Matthew 10:40-42) The only commentary I can offer on this is something else Yahshua said. I’ll revisit this when we reach the end of the Tribulation in our timeline, but for now, I’ll give you the Reader’s Digest version:

“When the Son of Man sits on His throne of glory, all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You in need like that and we took care of You?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

“Then He will say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was in need and you refused to help Me.’ Then they will say, ‘Lord, when did we neglect You?’ He will answer, ‘Inasmuch as you refused to help the least of these, you neglected Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-46, abridged)

It seems likely that the people Christ sees as his surrogates on the earth in these verses are none other than His 144,000 sealed witnesses. They have needs: food, water, shelter, clothing, medical aid, and encouragement—simple things that any decent human being would gladly give another if asked. Yet during these terrible days, many will deny the most basic courtesies to these young men in the name of prudence, political correctness, or self preservation. I heard about you people on the TV news. They said you were dangerous hate-mongering religious terrorists, and I could get in big trouble just by talking to you. Now get off my front lawn before I call the cops. I’m late for church.
Offline roy  
#3 Posted : Sunday, September 14, 2008 2:23:05 AM(UTC)
roy
Joined: 6/9/2008(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Brisbane

Thank you for the info Matthew. I follow the logic that young men who have not been turned aside to the carnal nature of the world are indeed likely to comprise the 144,000. Further to that thought, it is also likely that these young men will not have been involved in other worldly pursuits that would turn them from Yahweh - such as chasing after the other two of the deadly trio - sex, power and money. Nevertheless I still have a problem with the English word 'defiled'
From the New Oxford Illustrated Dictionary: defile v.t. Make dirty, befoul; pollute, corrupt; desecrate, profane; make ceremonially unclean.
I'm sure Yahweh did not intend to say that one man married to one woman befouled, polluted, corrupted, desecrated or profaned him. More likely is the last interpretation: to make ceremonially unclean - in the sense that the man is no longer dedicated only to Yahweh but now also has the responsibility of a wife. This is the sense in which I would read the verse but unfortunately that sense is lost by the jarring English word defile. I wonder if that sense was conveyed in the original Greek?
It's interesting to note that defile has a second meaning, viz. a narrow pass or gorge. Using that sense of the word the woman could hem the man in to a narrow way of thinking and behaving, again limiting his association with Yahweh.
As KP would say 'you've got to dig for it'
Shalom
Roy
Offline kp  
#4 Posted : Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:36:55 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Quite, right, Roy. There are two words here that bear closer scrutiny. The first is that translated "defiled." Moluno means: "to pollute, stain, contaminate, defile. 1a used in NT of those who have not kept themselves pure from the defilements of sin, who have soiled themselves by fornication and adultery." (Strongs) Zodhaites defines it: "To defile, besmear, or soil as with mud or filth." The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament adds, "μολύνω (Moluno )occurs three times in the NT in the sense of religious and cultic defilement. In 1 C. 8:7 contact with what is pagan (εἰδωλόθυτον) means defilement of conscience for the weak in faith. The two passages in Rev. (3:4: ἃ οὐκ ἐμόλυναν τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτῶν, and 14:4: οὗτοί εἰσιν οἳ μετὰ γυναικῶν οὐκ ἐμολύνθησαν· παρθένοι γάρ εἰσιν) are inter-related. 14:4 refers to all the members of the community (14:1). Hence it cannot imply just sexual continence in the ascetic sense. On the other hand, μολύνω cannot mean only sexual transgression, for the subject παρθένοι would rule out those that are married in the community. In both places the οὐ μολύνειν is surely a symbolical expression for the faithfulness which has been maintained by the community, the bride (2 C. 11:2: παρθένον ἁγνὴν παραστῆσαι τῷ Χριστῷ), to its Bridegroom, Christ."

"Virgin" is parthenos, defined by Strongs as "1 a virgin. 1a a marriageable maiden. 1b a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man. 1c one’s marriageable daughter. 2 a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity. 2a one who has never had intercourse with women." Because John uses the phrase "defiled with women," it is clear that definition #2 is meant.

It seems to me that John meant to communicate that not only were these young men not defiled through extramarital sex, they were not married, either. He's not presenting or advocating this as a path to righteousness, you understand; he's just stating a fact. That's why I came to the conclusions I did in FH.

kp
Offline Tiffany  
#5 Posted : Monday, September 15, 2008 10:03:17 AM(UTC)
Tiffany
Joined: 6/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 185
Woman

Roy,

From a non-theologian, I was taking a marriage class about a year ago (trying to prepare for the one day I would become a wife) when they mentioned a change in commitment.

As a single woman right now I am 100% accountable to Yah and do not have to take into consideration anyone but myself. There will come a day when I have a husband and kids and at that point my perspective and priorities will change. As for your questions, I just wonder if maybe the 144,000 are like me full devoted, not wavering in my devotion to Yah and sharing when I can because they do not have the wife/kids to consider when setting out on the mission before them.

Just a thought, and welcome to the forum, I appreciate your contribution!

Tiffany
Offline bitnet  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, September 30, 2008 1:01:21 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

Watch the videos on NASA's Blue Beam project and assemble the conspiracy as you wish. Strange things will happen but nothing shall stand against the Word of Yahweh. Stay in His Light and all these other things shall fade away into the darkness. Do not be misled in any way but focus on His Salvation as He had planned and made known through Scripture.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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