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Offline J&M  
#1 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2007 6:19:25 AM(UTC)
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

Of the happenings in Eden, the one that is nearly always glossed over is exactly what knowledge of good and evil did to Adam.

Before eating of the tree, Adam was imbued with the breath (life) of YHWH. Like YHWH he had nesama (conscience) which at this point gave him an intimate indication of YHWH's opinion in any choice he (Adam) made. Adam's conscience was 'advised and directed' acording to YHWH's righteousness (knowledge of good and evil)

Adam was set up by satan with a very nasty choice; wife or Yahweh.

Gleaning what I can from satan's words, acknowledging that there was deceipt in them, but also accepting that the best deceipts are almost true, eating the fruit substituted YHWH's influence over concience with a personal man centred (physical not spiritual) influence.

So before the fall Adam had YHWH's guidance always at hand, post fall he only had his own judgement, and consiousness of the physical world around him. He was no longer spiritually aware of YHWH (they could now only hear him physically).

His conscience was not anahilated, but it was now a tool of his own imperfect and physiacl knowledge of good and evil.

When Yahushua was nailed to the stauros, at the appointed time His connection to Yahweh and the Ruarch Quodesh were severed, for he took on the sin of the world. But he retained his perfect knowledge of Good and Evil so he knew what to do next. Because of this Death had no hold on him, he could not be separated from Yahweh permanently. As soon as the punishment for the sin had been meted out and fiulfilled, he was automatically back in YHWH's Kingdom and YHWH's righteousness.

In Ephesians 5 we read that we deal not with flesh and blood, but with the powers and the principalities of the earth and of darkness. The conscience was designed by YHWH to be a guide along His WAY, severed from YHWH the conscience allows mankind to choose his own path subject to his own judgement, unfortunately man's judgement is notably easily corrupted, both by the things of earth, and by undesirable spiritual things.

Yehoshua invites us to seek to become members of the Kingdom of YHWH. It is difficult in this age of democracy to understand kingship: A person who has the undisputed and unaccountable right of life and death over his/her subjects. Where, if one chooses to be loyal, one might be rewarded, but for anything else, including the whim of the monarch, one's life is forfeit, fair or unfair it is of no consequence.

To be a member of the Kingdom of YHWH, we choose to put ourselves into his care, accepting his covenant that he will care for us as a Father (but also accepting his right to unaccountability as a King).

Alongside of the invitation to become a member of the Kingdom of YHWH, we get the invitation to participate in His righteousness - the two go together. YHWH's righteousnes is His Knowledge of Good and Evil. We are to seek Yahweh's knowledge of good and evil rather than our own.

As fallen men and women, our knowledge of good and evil sits over our conscience dominationg our decision making processes, it is so embedded within our psyche that it is totally part of our character and consciousness. TRUE Scripture gives us guidance (thank-you YY); and an acurate comprehension of scripture is our main tool in the search for Yahweh's rightiousness.

Paul tells us not to be conformed, but to be transformed. If I decide, with my knowledge of good and evil, to become part of the kingdom of god, to be a good person, I then start to conform to the rules and become a good jew or a good christian or a good moslem. To my knowledge of good and evil there is not much difference, religion is much the same wherever and whatever.

If I am transformed, I am changed by an outside agency, and in this case Paul is referring to the Ruarch Quodesh - the set apart (Holy) Spirit. Having been cleansed of the mire of sin by the gift of Yahushua, I am now able to be a dwelling place of the Most High in the form of his Set apart Spirit. If I allow Her, She will indwell me and transform me to YHWH's image, She will deal with my knowledge of good and evil, replacing it with YHWH's. I will be truly reborn from above.

As Jeremiah says 'Blessed be YHWH for His laws are written on my heart'

Offline jojocc  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, December 5, 2007 10:23:43 AM(UTC)
Joined: 12/1/2007(UTC)
Posts: 97

Agreed, so being transformed stops us from being the Matt 23:25 Pharisees and Scribes, "Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you make clean the outside of the cup and the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess." It is not enough to 'be seen' to be doing 'the right things'. Of course when Yahashua was talking to them he had not yet set us free, they still had to follow the Torah in order for forgiveness.

Now that the price has been paid and the RK has been breathed back into the Ekklesia, we are able to be transformed and follow the Torah lain on or hearts rather than the rigid strictures laid out on the stones.

The knowledge of good and evil that came to Adam and Chava in the garden could be said to be the cause of sin, and would it be stretching too far to say that ultimately, sin is anything that we (man) does that is using this knowledge of good and evil?

So basically, Enoch, Elijah, John? and I'm sure there were others, must have been completely transformed, fully integrated and reliant upon YHWH's knowledge of good and evil, and therefore acceptable in his presence (without sin) - tadah, no need for physical death.
Offline bitnet  
#3 Posted : Saturday, January 5, 2008 4:39:58 PM(UTC)
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Hello jojocc,

I have a slight problem with this:

"The knowledge of good and evil that came to Adam and Chava in the garden could be said to be the cause of sin, and would it be stretching too far to say that ultimately, sin is anything that we (man) does that is using this knowledge of good and evil?"

I think the above would be stretching it too far as many have strayed so far that they have actually lost all knowledge of good and evil. They have been indoctrinated with so much falseness from the crib to the grave that they actually have no idea what is good or evil according to the Creator! Look at the poor souls like, er, Achmed the Terrorist, who have been taught that it is a good thing to kill non-believers via a bomb strapped to their chest at the tender age of 20. This knowledge of good and evil has been hijacked to the point that many do not really know as that little voice inside their heads has been drowned, silenced to the point that billions will be lost in the not too distant future. So if they have no knowledge, what is sin to them?

They do not know that sin is the transgression of the Law. Ignorance of this Law is what brings man to misunderstand the Creator, each other and our Purpose. That is why ignorant gays can proudly claim that their God is merciful and accepting of their ways without a hint of guilt. Why people murder in the names of their Gods. Why people covet in the religion of mammon. Why people despise the Creator and hail the creation. And the list goes on. Which is why Yahushua said, "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do."

So although Yahushua gave us the bottomline message to love Yahweh and each other, the 10 commandments outline how to love Yahweh and each other; the first four for Yahweh and the balance six for fellow man. Further details on each of the 10 are found in Scripture. If our conscience is guarded by these precepts, we do well. By acknowledging The Sacrifice of the Creator, then we do better. And even better still when we do The Work in these last days.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline jojocc  
#4 Posted : Saturday, January 5, 2008 9:21:37 PM(UTC)
Joined: 12/1/2007(UTC)
Posts: 97

Hi Bitnet,

I think there are two types of 'knowledge of god and evil' YHWH's and that which came from the tree.

When Adam and Chava ate of the tree, the knowledge of good and evil (KGE) from the principalities of earth and of darkness settled upon them like a mantle, they still had YHWH's righteousness/KGE, but they also were able to make judgements for themselfves contrary to YHWH's righteousness. Thus they realised they were naked.

It appears to me that people like Ahmed, who strap bombs to themselves, or this guy in Holland who says that YHWH's name does not matter are using the KGE gained from the tree, they are making judgements based on the KGE from the principalities of the Earth and of darkness.
Offline bitnet  
#5 Posted : Sunday, January 6, 2008 9:56:18 PM(UTC)
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Hmmm, I kinda liked your reply at first then I thought... two sets of knowledge? I rather think that knowledge is knowledge... KGE from the ruler of this world corrupting the KGE from Yahweh? Again, a little tricksy, as Gollum would say.

I rather think that Yahweh gave A&C all the information necessary to live a good life on this earth and stay in commune with Him. But it all depended upon a reliance on Yahweh and His instructions. His knowledge. However, A&C were beguiled to expand that information and decide for themselves what is suitable.

Their realisation that their nakedness was shameful was not because they ate of the tree of KGE but because Lucifer told them that it was shameful. Yahweh did not think of their nakedness as shameful or else He would have said something and clothed them from the start.

The father of lies provided A&C with misinformation that brought them down. It was the desire to decide for themselves what is good or evil that made them eat of the tree of KGE. When they realised that they were not equipped to really know what is good or evil it was too late, and being shameful of their disobedience they hid from Yahweh. Their nakedness had nothing to do with it, and that it was deemed bad was because of a lie from Lucifer. He knew that for those people with no knowledge, lies can swing them anywhere: good can be made bad and bad made good. That is why Yahweh said that His people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. If you know good and bad today, you can still choose. The knowledge of bad does not make you evil, only what you do with that knowledge: accept it or reject it.

Today we realise that do not really need to know what is bad. We have seen enough. I rather think that a full and complete dependence on Yahweh is better than having knowledge of good and evil. Especially if it is clouded up in mirrors and smoke. I'm kinda tired of searching and deciding myself and want our Father to handle things His way.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline kp  
#6 Posted : Monday, January 7, 2008 4:33:57 AM(UTC)
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

For what it's worth, I talked about the "knowledge of good and evil" thing in the very first precept of the second volume of TOM (which I realize isn't up on the website yet). I'm not really trying to rebut anybody, just rounding out the conversation. Here's what I wrote:

(614) Don’t desire the knowledge of evil. “Then Yahweh, God, took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And Yahweh, God, commanded the man, saying, ‘Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’” (Genesis 2:15-17) Adam and his bride were given an enclosed, protected environment called Eden (from the Hebrew root ‘adan, meaning enjoyment or pleasure) in which to live. It was quite literally “paradise”—a word that means “a walled garden.” Here, sheltered and provided for in every way, they were set apart from the animal kingdom (including any proto-hominids Yahweh had introduced into the biosphere) by God’s gift of the neshamah—the “breath of life” (Genesis 2:7). This made humans unique: in addition to having a soul (nephesh) which made our bodies alive (like all animals), the neshamah gave us the capacity for spiritual life, that is, the ability to be indwelled by and respond to the eternal Spirit of God.

In this perfect environment, Adam and Chavvah (Eve) already had the knowledge of good—it was all they knew, for evil was kept at bay by God’s provision and presence. Yahweh had provided this paradise for them because of His love: in fact, we were unique among His creatures in having been created for no other purpose than to share a loving relationship with Him. But having created animals and angels, Yahweh knew that love came with a catch: in order for love to be given, it must be possible for it to be withheld. Love requires choice; in order for the concept to have any meaning, it must be possible to choose not to love.

Animals have no capacity for real spiritual love. Without a neshamah, they operate purely on instinct, emotion, and intellect, no matter how much devotion, loyalty, or affection they might display. On the other hand, though angels do have the requisite spiritual nature, Yahweh created them without the privilege of choice. They’re like soldiers in an army who, though capable of autonomous action, are not given the prerogative of disregarding their commander’s instructions. Like any soldier, of course, they have the capability to disobey, but not the legal right. If they do, they become rebels, outlaws, demons whom Yahweh will incarcerate when it suits His purpose. Without the privilege of choice, the concept of love is meaningless for angels; and for animals without the capacity for spiritual life, it is equally meaningless. Man is the only created being with both the capacity and the privilege of choosing to reciprocate God’s love. It is what we were made for.

Which brings us back to Eden. Why did Yahweh place the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the center of the garden if He didn’t want Adam and Eve to eat from it? Because He wanted to give them a simple, binary way to demonstrate their trust. If you trust Me to provide for all your needs, then obey My voice in this one small matter. Your choice will reveal your love for Me, for it will reveal your understanding and acceptance of my love for you. Chavvah thought she was trading innocence for wisdom. In reality, she was exchanging her innocence for mere experience—a bad bargain however you slice it. As we would learn much later, “The reverence for Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding [binah: discernment, insight].” (Proverbs 9:10) Experiential knowledge of evil, on the other hand, leads only to death.

We shouldn’t gloss over the apparent contradiction of the warning, “In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Adam and Chavvah both went on to live very long lives—Adam lived to be 930 years old! So did God lie? No. Physical death (the separation of the soul/nephesh from the body) was only a metaphor for the more serious sort of death about which Yahweh was warning them: spiritual death, the separation of His Spirit from their neshamah. That happened immediately, and life could only be restored, it turned out, through the shedding of innocent blood.

Offline J&M  
#7 Posted : Monday, January 7, 2008 1:04:19 PM(UTC)
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

Man's 'Good' deeds are as filthy rags, why? because what man thinks is 'good' is not necessarily what YHWH thinks is good.

There are probably many believers who regard this website as positively evil, I hope YHWH does not think so.
Offline jojocc  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:30:41 AM(UTC)
Joined: 12/1/2007(UTC)
Posts: 97

Hi all,

one thing just got my attention to kick off, Satan did not tell A&C that they were naked, וַתִּפָּקַחְנָה, עֵינֵי שְׁנֵיהֶם, וַיֵּדְעוּ, כִּי עֵירֻמִּם הֵם according to the Hebrew, 'they were opened, the eyes of the two of them, and the knew, because the nakedness of them'

Something must have happened to make them be ashamed of being naked - ie, they saw the world through new eyes, and in this new view, being naked was not ok. I always used to wonder why YHWH chose to make some of his prophets bimble around in the nud, then it hit me, to YHWH, nudity is ok. Lust is a tool of man's KGE, therefor in our own righteousness we must cover up to stop the lust. Maybe the first instance of mankind treating the symptom and not the cause.

The cause is that we now have our own righteousness added to that of YHWH. We did not lose YHWH's righteousness/KGE (for righteousness is the ability to juge/know good from evil) we just had our own added from the tree. This is why we have to let YHWH, Yahashua and the Ruarch HaKodesh transform us into their image (spiritual) not conform ourselves to what we judge their image to be, as that would be filthy rags.

Then all that we do will be in the Righteousness of YHWH, we will be restored to how we were meant to be in the beginning, free from the death that man's KGE/Sin condemns us to.

Offline bitnet  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:57:34 AM(UTC)
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Thanks everyone for adding to this because it really helps us all to realise that "iron sharpens iron." As we share we learn and grow in the Grace of our Big Brother Yahushua. Sure beats sitting in a pew listening to stuff that is non-Scriptural... and being unable to say anything about it!
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Mike_Browell  
#10 Posted : Sunday, January 27, 2008 11:11:34 AM(UTC)
Joined: 1/19/2008(UTC)
Posts: 51
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Peace and Love Everyone,

I've always felt (once again without proof) that the reason we realized we were naked is actually because we were left spiritually bare; relying on our own righteousness instead of Yahweh's. And that the wearing of clothes is just a feeble physical attempt to cover inner shame in ourselves. Shame which can only be lifted by relying on Yahweh's righteousness.

Your Loving Brother,
Michael Browell
Offline Yahshuaslavejeff  
#11 Posted : Thursday, September 18, 2008 1:36:37 AM(UTC)
Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Israel / oklahoma

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