Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC) Posts: 544 Thanks: 4 times
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YY well said that love requires choice. While I suspect that the doctrine is based on a poor understanding of Yahuweh's Scripture, I'm trying to understand how to respond to verses advanced to support predestination. The passage I most frequently encounter is in Romans 9: Quote:Romans 9:1 I speak the truth in Messiah, I do not lie, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Set-apart Spirit, 2that I have great sadness and continual grief in my heart. 3For I myself could have wished to be banished from Messiah for the sake of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4who are Yisra’elites, whose is the adoption, and the esteem, and the covenants, and the giving of the Torah, and the worship, and the promises, 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to the flesh, who is over all, Elohim-blessed forever. Amen. 6However, it is not as though the word of Elohim has failed. For they are not all Yisra’el who are of Yisra’el, 7neither are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham, but, “In Yitshaq your seed shall be called.” 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of Elohim, but the children of the promise are reckoned as the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, “At this time I shall come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but Ribqah having conceived by one, our father Yitshaq. 11Yet, before they were born or had done any good or evil – in order that the purpose of Elohim, according to choice, might stand, not of works but of Him who calls – 12it was said to her, “The greater shall serve the lesser,” 13as it has been written, “Ya'aqob I have loved, but Esaw I have hated.” 14What, then, shall we say? Is there unrighteousness with Elohim? Let it not be! 15For He says to Mosheh, “I shall favour whomever I favour, and I shall have compassion on whomever I have compassion.” 16So, then, it is not of him who is wishing, nor of him who is running, but of Elohim who shows favour. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this same purpose I have raised you up, to show My power in you, and that My Name be declared in all the earth.” 18So, then, He favours whom He wishes, and He hardens whom He wishes. 19Then you shall say to me, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His counsel?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to Elohim? Shall that which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for value and another not for value? 22And if Elohim, desiring to show wrath, and to make His power known, with much patience tolerated the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His esteem on vessels of compassion, which He had prepared beforehand for esteem, 24even whom He called, not only us of the Yehudim, but also of the gentiles? Note: translation ISR Scriptures If Yada or KP addressed this in their works I've missed it so far, but would appreciate either their input or others in understanding this passage and concept. As a starting point, I accept that Yahuweh knows the culmination of individuals choices in advance without coercing the outcome (freewill despite foreknowledge). He did what was needed to restore fellowship with Him and gave a role to those who do relationally know and are adopted by Him to share His word and Spirit with those who do not know Him and that He is willing to tolerate the many who choose to ignore Him to reach the few who choose otherwise. Predestination advocates seem to accept the inevitability of the elect and the damned and people have little or no role. This reminds me some of the fatalism found in Islam and similar religons where beriyth is fated and essentially choiceless.
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