This is my first posting here and what I'm going to say will probably make most of you say that I'm a false prophet, a kook, or something like that. First, I don't think of myself as a prophet. I am only a man who is trying to better his relationship with the Father. What I'm about to say was revealed to me while on a lawnmower at work. This revalation brought me to tears and also scared me. It scared me because I knew I had to reveal this and I know what people will think. My hands are shaking as I write this, so forgive any mistakes. I am not good with words, but Yahweh willing, I will make this clear and understandable.
Yahushua was/is a man. As much a man as I. This next statement is as close to being correct as my limited vocabulary can manage. Yahushua is the first born son of Yahweh. We are all children of Yahweh, but he is the first born. (this word "born" is not correct but I can't think of another more fitting word) This is how he can come to earth with the authority of the Father. As is the custom of the first born in an earthly family who is often sent in the name of the father. This does not mean that we are equal to Him. He is our "Big brother".
The father sent Him to earth to be show us the path to the Father. Yahushua never did anything that should make us think that He was equal to the Father. He prayed to the Father. If He was the father then He was talking to himself. God the father, God the son, sounds good. How does this sound, Yahweh the father, Yahweh the son? Yahweh came to earth as his own son?
I could go on and on to make my point, but better you read the scriptures with this in mind and you will understand. Only by seeing Yahushua as a brother can you put Him in his rightful place in your heart. Then you can see Yahweh as THE Father.
Lee

Yes. I have read YY. It is what brought me back to the Father by showing me why His name is important.

I do my best thinking on the mower. Also good time for chatting with the father. Lee

I was thinking about this yesterday and what I came to conclude, though I might be wrong, is that Yahushua was born as every other man, but without sin and He was/is Elohim.

On earth He was like us, having a brain like ours, with one thought at a time. No human person can know everything happening at once. He was Elohim but as a man on earth I think it would be absurd for Him to know everyone and their thoughts at the same time, that's the position of the Father, or the Spirit. When He lived on earth He went through the same things as we do, He had to grow and develop, especially in His relationship with the Father, only difference was He had the Spirit from conception and was born without a sinful nature, therefore His rate of growth (spiritually) was a billion fold, or better said His rate of growth was always perfect. He understood who He was, whether He came to realise over time or just knew it from birth I do not know. He is the Father manifest on earth, He was present at the beginning. He gave up His heavenly throne to walk amongst us. A verse I struggle with is Acts 2:36 which says "Therefore let all the house of Yisrael know for certain that Elohim has made Yahushua, whom you impaled, both Master and Messiah," because the word made can imply that He did not originally have those titles or it can imply that from the beginning Yahushua was the Father manifested in bodily form thereby having those titles from the beginning.

This leaves another question: When the Messenger appeared in bodily form to the Old Covenant guys, such as Adam, Moses, Abraham, etc. was the body He appeared in after His earthly walk, in other words having gone back in time or did He have a resurrected (immortal) body from the beginning and He left it behind when He came to earth only to have it once again after His resurrection. I understand that after His resurrection His body is eternal, being past, present and future. Though for us our resurrection is eternal in the direction towards the future.

I wonder if Yahushua, while on earth, could recall being from eternity, like being present at creation???

I have always been curious about Yahushua and His earthly life.

This is my understanding;
From the Besorim and Letters:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with Elohim.
Joh 1:3 All came to be through Him,1 and without Him not even one came to be that came to be.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent1 among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth
The word which Yahuchanan proclaimed to be Elohim became flesh
Rev 19:11 And I saw the heaven opened, and there was a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Trustworthy and True, and in righteousness He judges and fights.1 Footnote: 1See Acts 10:42.
Rev 19:12 And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, having a Name that had been written, which no one had perceived except Himself1 – Footnote: 1See 2:17.
Rev 19:13 and having been dressed in a robe dipped in blood – and His Name is called: The Word of יהוה.1 Footnote: 1John 1:1 & 14.
To answer your question as to why there is a set apart manifestation of YHWH in the throne room...for other purposes than just being the Son.

Luk 5:20 And having seen their belief, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”
Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who is able to forgive sins except Elohim alone?”
Luk 5:22 And יהושע, knowing their thoughts, answering, said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
Luk 5:23 “Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’?
Luk 5:24 “But in order for you to know that the Son of Aḏam possesses authority on earth to forgive sins...” He said to the man who was paralysed, “I say to you, rise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”
Luk 5:25 And at once, having risen up before them, he took up what he had been lying on, and went away to his house, praising Elohim.
Luk 5:26 And astonishment seized them all, and they praised Elohim and were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen extra-ordinary feats today!”

Col 2:8 See to it that no one makes a prey of you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary matters of the world,1 and not according to Messiah.
Col 2:9 Because in Him dwells all the completeness of the Mightiness bodily,


Php 2:5 For, let this mind be in you which was also in Messiah יהושע,
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of Elohim, did not regard equality with Elohim a matter to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, and came to be in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And having been found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, death even of a stake.
Php 2:9 Elohim, therefore, has highly exalted Him and given Him the Name which is above every name,
Php 2:10 that at the Name of יהושע every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue should confess that יהושע Messiah is Master (not that I am a strong believer in Aramaic Primacy or anything but the Aramaic is MarYah literally Lord Yah), to the esteem of Elohim the Father.

Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to the flesh, who is over all, Elohim-blessed forever. Amĕn.
NIV 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
WEB of whom are the fathers, and from whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.
BBE Whose are the fathers, and of whom came Christ in the flesh, who is over all, God, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it
http://www.middletownbib...rg/doctrine/romans95.htm

And as a sidenote: Romans 9:5 (according to Aramaic Peshitta) "And from among them is seen/revealed the Messiah in the flesh, who is Alaha (Eloha/God)

Col 1:15 who is the likeness of the invisible Elohim, the first-born of all creation.1 Footnote: 1Heb. 1:6, Rev. 3:14.
Col 1:16 Because in Him were created all that are in the heavens and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or rulerships or principalities or authorities – all have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all, and in Him all hold together.
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that He might become the One who is first in all.
Col 1:19 Because in Him all the completeness was well pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through Him to completely restore to favour all unto Himself, whether on earth or in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of His stake.

Now this can bring confusion, I understand. The fact that He is the first born of all creation would speak that he was created and therefore is a separate entity. I believe that the scriptures do show that Yahushua as a purpose driven manifestation of YHWH was indeed born "finitely". At a time before the creation Yahushua was brought forth from the bosom of the Father....having existed (perhaps cleaving to the palate) within YHWH from incomprehensible eternity. YHWH designated Him as his Son and gave him a name above all others when He was brought forth. He is the brought forth Word...the Devar. The Devar was the agent of Creation...not so much the architect...but the builder. Yahushua is the brought forth Word that was begotten (doing the will of the Father, by subjugating and humbling himself as it pertains to power and dimension) into this earth through the Surrogate Miryam. He is referred to as the servant because it makes sense. He is for lack of words...the Lesser YHWH. He does the will of the Greater and serves the Greater because He emanates from the Greater I don't know how to say this without sounding esoteric. Thinking of Zech 12:10, if one part of me goes haywire...my other organs feel the stress of that. In the same way...because the Word is part of YHWH...when the word was pierced...YHWH could thus say that he had been pierced.

Here are some verses about the positions I just took:
Psa 2:7 “I inscribe for a law: יהוה has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have brought You forth
Psa 33:6 By the Word1 of יהוה the heavens were made, And all their host by the Spirit1 of His mouth, Footnote: 1“The Word” and “the Spirit” are unanimous, with one accord.
Eph 3:9 and to make all see how this secret is administered, which for ages past has been hidden in Elohim who created all through יהושע Messiah,1 Footnote: 1John 1:3.

And Speaking of Miryam:
Job 14:4 Who brings the clean out of the unclean? No one!

Luk 2:24 and to give an offering according to what is said in the Torah of יהוה, “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”

And now a question: Did Yahushua ever refer to Miryam as Mother?

This was one of the major statements that honestly I took issue with

Psa 49:7 A brother does not redeem anyone at all, Neither give to Elohim a ransom for him;
Psa 49:8 For the redemption of their lives is costly, And it shall cease forever;
Psa 49:9 That he should still live forever, And not see the Pit.

Heb 10:5 Therefore, coming into the world, He says, “Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.

What is that body that has been prepared?

1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For the one who is eating and drinking unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Master.


I would probably cry too and would be terrified if Yahushua was as much a man as we are...And btw this is not a denial that Yahushua came in the flesh but more and more I have reservations as to the type of flesh....but indeed I defy Gnosis and proudly proclaim He came in the flesh.








Mat 3:14 But Yoḥanan was hindering Him, saying, “I need to be immersed by You, and You come to me?”
Mat 3:15 But יהושע answering, said to him, “Permit it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.

from the covenant scriptures:

Zec 12:10 “And I shall pour on the house of Dawiḏ and on the inhabitants of Yerushalayim a spirit of favour and prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son. And they shall be in bitterness over Him as a bitterness over the first-born.


Jos 5:13 And it came to be, when Yehoshua was by Yeriḥo, that he lifted his eyes and looked and saw a Man standing opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Yehoshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
Jos 5:14 And He said, “No, for I have now come as Captain of the host of יהוה.” And Yehoshua fell on his face to the earth and did obeisance, and said to Him, “What is my Master saying to His servant?” Jos 5:15 And the Captain of the host of יהוה said to Yehoshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is set-apart.”

Isa 9:6 For a Child shall be born unto us, a Son shall be given unto us, and the rule is on His shoulder. And His Name is called Wonder, Counsellor, Strong Ěl, Father of Continuity, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of Dawiḏ and over His reign1, to establish it and sustain it with right-ruling and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this. Footnote: 1See 16:5, Ps. 2, Ps. 45:6, Mic. 5:2, Lk.


Gen 22:11 but the Messenger of יהוה called to him from the heavens and said, “Aḇraham, Aḇraham!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy, nor touch him. For now I know that you fear Elohim, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” Gen 22:13 And Aḇraham lifted his eyes and looked and saw behind him a ram caught in a bush by its horns, and Aḇraham went and took the ram and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son.
Gen 22:14 And Aḇraham called the name of the place, ‘יהוה Yireh,’ as it is said to this day, “On the mountain יהוה provides.”
Gen 22:15 And the Messenger of יהוה called to Aḇraham a second time from the heavens,
Gen 22:16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares יהוה, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son,

Gen 32:24 And Yaʽaqoḇ was left alone. And a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.
Gen 32:25 And when He saw that He did not overcome him, He touched the socket of his hip. And the socket of Yaʽaqoḇ’s hip was dislocated as He wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.” But he said, “I am not letting You go until You have blessed me!”
Gen 32:27 So He asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Yaʽaqoḇ.”
Gen 32:28 And He said, “Your name is no longer called Yaʽaqoḇ, but Yisra’ĕl1, because you have striven with Elohim and with men, and have overcome.” Footnote: 1Yisra’ĕl means “to strive with Ěl, to overcome with Ěl, (then) to rule with Ěl”
Gen 32:29 And Yaʽaqoḇ asked Him, saying, “Please let me know Your Name.” And He said, “Why do you ask about My Name?” And He blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Yaʽaqoḇ called the name of the place Peni’ĕl, “For I have seen Elohim face to face, and my life is preserved.”

How could Ya'acob have seen the face of Elohim? Perhaps he saw the face/presence...

Gen 19:24 And יהוה rained sulphur and fire on Seḏom and Amorah, from יהוה out of the heavens.

1Sa 15:10 And the word of יהוה came to Shemu’ĕl, saying,
1Sa 15:11 “I am grieved that I have set up Sha’ul as sovereign, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My words.” And it displeased Shemu’ĕl, and he cried to יהוה all night.

Exo 23:20 “See, I am sending a Messenger before you to guard you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
Exo 23:21 “Be on guard before Him and obey His voice. Do not rebel against Him, for He is not going to pardon your transgression, for My Name is in Him.
Exo 23:22 “But if you diligently obey His voice and shall do all that I speak, then I shall be an enemy to your enemies and a distresser to those who distress you.


Hidden Within the original texts:

Exo 3:14 And Elohim said to Mosheh, “I am that which I am.”(Eyah asher Eyah)1 And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Yisra’ĕl, ‘I am (Eyah) has sent me to you.’ ” Exo 3:15 And Elohim said further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to the children of Yisra’ĕl, ‘יהוה Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Aḇraham, the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to all generations.’

Joh 11:25 יהושע said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he dies, he shall live.

I am here is ego eimi: it's awkward usage considering that just eimi would have done it...this is a correlation to Eyah
The Aramaic agrees and uses Ena-na (I am) when a simple ena would have sufficed

http://aramaicnttruth.or...nloads/ThePathtoLife.pdf (Page 104)

The first and the last:

Isa 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Yaʽaqoḇ, and Yisra’ĕl, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Isa 48:13 “Also, My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. I call to them, let them stand together.

Rev 1:7 See, He is coming with the clouds, (could only be Yahushua) and every eye shall see Him, even they who pierced Him. (Zech 12:10) And all the tribes of the earth shall mourn because of Him. Yes, Amĕn.
Rev 1:8 “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, Beginning and End,” says יהוה “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
*Sidenote: Daniel 7:13 - I was seeing in the visions of the night, and lo, with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was [one] coming, and unto the Ancient of Days he hath come, and before Him they have brought him near. (foundational reference of the SON OF MAN)

Matthew 24:30 - Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory*



*Sidenote: pertaining to the Arm of YHWH see also : Ex 6:6, Deut 5:15, Isaiah 52:10 (with it's connection and proximity to the suffering servant passage being noted), Isaiah 53:1

Isa 40:10 See, the Master יהוה comes with a strong hand, and His arm rules for Him. See, His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him.
Rev 22:12 “And see, I am coming speedily (who's coming?), and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work
Rev 22:13 “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.

This is by no means all the evidence, and I am sorry if it may seem jumbled but I wrote as I recalled things and as verses came to me. If we can agree that Yahushua is a manifestation of, the presence and the face of, the Word of, the earthly representation and creative agent of YHWH then we are in agreement. If we can agree that Yahushua is substance and part of YHWH and that the Father designated His word as the Son (recognizing not only literal but also metaphorical connotations) then we have no problem. I cannot however reason from your previous writings that that is the case...

I maintain that in a very certain way...yes He did. If we remember that Yahuweh exists as Yahushua (as the Word in the Heaven and as a humbled diminished manifestation in the flesh on the earth ((Php. 2:6-8)) and as the Son in both) Isa 43:11 “I, I am יהוה, and besides Me there is no saviour. If Yahushua is not YHWH...then we are in trouble according to the words YHWH spoke to Yeshayahu. If this is your conclusion and I have confused your meanings, I apologize for wasting your time with a lengthy post.

If I pulled out my heart, and it started walking and talking and acting out my will because it was it's will... it would still be of me, from me, the substance of me, part of me...to use a coarse example...

Shalom

Edited by user Tuesday, April 1, 2008 1:46:44 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Kleeb,

Your position regarding Yahushua is identical to the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses'. Have you had dealings with them? The position that Yahushua was actually Yahuwah's first born son is one of their basic tenets. I'm sorry, but your revelation isn't actually new at all. Yahuwah uses the familial metaphor of Father (Yahuwah - Existence), Son (Yahushua - Salvation), and Mother (Ruach haKodesh - Set Apart Spirit) throughout Scripture to convey His redemptive plan.

Noach

Shalom82, I have gone over what you wrote and will go over it again when I am not so tired. The funny thing is that so many of the scriptures that you quote are ones that I would have if I was as good as you at finding them. You said, " If we can agree that Yahushua is a manifestation of, the presence and the face of, the Word of, the earthly representation and creative agent of YHWH then we are in agreement. If we can agree that Yahushua is substance and part of YHWH and that the Father designated His word as the Son (recognizing not only literal but also metaphorical connotations) then we have no problem. I cannot however reason from your previous writings that that is the case...". Yes this is the case. I am not so good at putting my thoughts into words, especially in writing. I think in all the right ways we agree. Maybe I am only now seeing something that you already see and I just can't explain it correctly. Or maybe it's something entirely different. In any case, peace be with you. Lee

Shalom Lee,
I hope you are doing well and are contented. I apologize if I came off as heavy handed, rude, or arrogant. That was not my intention but in retrospect I think that's just what I did. I won't offer any excuses, except for this. From time to time we have people with "interesting" positions come on the forum. As I said before I was not really sure what you were getting at from your previous posts and because we have more readers than we do contributors I wanted to make a clear statement. I look forward to your future contributions and fellowship. In the future I will try to temper my cerebral side with a little more compassion for my brothers and sisters.

Yibarekhekha YHWH (YHWH bless you)...in every way according to His will.

Shalom82

Edited by user Thursday, April 3, 2008 4:15:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Wow...powerful stuff CK...Thanks for that. When I read it it made my day.

YHWH Immakha (YHWH be with you)

Shalom

Shalom All,

Welcome to YY, Lee, and I am sure that you shall find plenty of bricks for you to use here... some thrown to you whether you are ready or not! Just be prepared to catch and put them into your walls until your house is reasonably well-built! I have to admit that our "homes" here will never be perfect no matter how we try. I have not met anyone here in person but I know for certain that many of them are my true family and that we shall spend time together in Yahweh's house for eternity. In the end, that's what really matters -- Yahweh's house shall be our home.