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Firstfruits. Day after which Sabbath?
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Offline PeterH  
#1 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:50:04 AM(UTC)
PeterH
Joined: 2/27/2008(UTC)
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First post from York, UK!

We are told to 'wave it on the day after the Sabbath' in Lev 23:11. Is that the weekly Sabbath that follows passover or the Sabbath on the first day of Unleavened Bread?

Lev 23:16 says 'count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath'. That suggests we're dealing with the weekly Sabbath so First Fruits and Weeks 49 days later will always be on a First day. (Traditional view, so I'm suspicious)

If 14th Abib was a Friday in 33AD as KP and others suggest, then the ULB Sabbath (15th) obviously drops on the weekly Sabbath and no problem knowing to wave on 16th.

KP plums for ULB Sabbath - Owner's Manual Cahapter 5 #745:
'But the first three miqrym—Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and the Feast of Firstfruits—were scheduled for the 14th, 15th and 16th, '

Will that be the case every year?

Any thoughts/verses would be apprciated

Peter
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Offline Icy  
#2 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:58:06 AM(UTC)
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Here is an email between myself and kp on the same subject (though dealing specifically with the feast of weeks) back in May 2007. The black is mine, the red is kp:

Quote:
I’ve still been talking to Nic. He agrees with me now that Firstfruits is a Feast. How magnanamous. He laid out all the dates and feasts and they were correct, but I told him he had the wrong date for the Feast of Weeks. In The Owner’s Manual, you state that the Feast of Weeks in on Sivan 6, which is also the day I came up with. Nic had it on Sivan 7. So, I read Leviticus 23, and it says to count 7 weeks (yes--that's 49 days) from Firstfruits. The next verse (16) says to counts 50 days (yes, this time from the Sabbath, Unleavened bread, the day before Firstfruits). If it is 50 days from Firstfruits (it's not), it puts it on Sivan 7. So, how do you come up with it being Sivan 6. Did you count from Unleavened Bread, like I first did? If so, why? Why not count from Firstfruits like verse 15 says? Are they two separate ways to count? No, but it can be confusing, I admit. The key to understanding this is paying attention to where the Sabbath fell: not on Passover (the 14th of Nisan), not on the Feast of Firstfruits (the 16th), but on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread--the 15th of Nisan. We're counting to the day after the Sabbath, which is the first day of the week (aka Sunday), seven weeks plus one day (=50) after the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread.

The important thing to realize is that there's only one instance of the annual rehearsal of the miqra that "counts," the one in which God's prophecy was fulfilled. In the case of the first four, that year was 33 AD. And in that year, as required by the Torah, the Feast of Unleavened Bread fell on a natural Sabbath---Saturday. Yahweh's plan and its fulfillment are perfect.
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#3 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 7:44:36 AM(UTC)
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Well I know that the day Passover is celebrated - Unlevened bread starts. As far as I know, on the first natural Sabbath to fall in that week of UB is First fruits. Then the feast of weeks is 49+1 after Passover. Passover is only a 1 day event, as is First fruits. Unlevened bread lasts a week, it ties the feasts together by letting first fruits fall on the first Shabbat within Unlevened bread. In 33AD Passover, unlevened bread and firstfruits all land nicely together, telling the story.


So to recap...

Passover is one day, unleavned bread starts that day and then the first weekly natural Sabbath occur is first fruits.

If im wrong, please point me right :)


Good to talk to you today Peter :)
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Offline kp  
#4 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:33:29 AM(UTC)
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Not to correct, but to clarify, Robskiwarrior:

Passover is a one-day feast. At sundown on that day, the Feast of Unleavened Bread commences. UB by definition begins on a Sabbath. It is a seven-day feast, followed up on the eighth day with another Sabbath. At sundown of the first day of UB, the Feast of Firstfruits (another one-day feast) begins, being coterminous with the second day of UB. So in a year (like 33) where the natural Sabbath aligns with the mandated Sabbath, Passover is from sundown Thursday to sundown Friday. Unleavened Bread begins at sundown Friday, and FF begins at sundown on Saturday.

kp
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#5 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 10:08:43 AM(UTC)
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Thanks ken, I think thats what I was thinking :) lol
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Offline PeterH  
#6 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 10:33:08 AM(UTC)
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Ken, So you are saying that first fruits is always on the 16th Abib, regardless of the day of the week?

If so, isn't it strange that Yahweh spells out the other miqras ' the xth day of the nth month' etc but doesn't with first fruits and weeks tied to it?

Peter
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#7 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 1:25:50 PM(UTC)
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PeterH wrote:
Ken, So you are saying that first fruits is always on the 16th Abib, regardless of the day of the week?

If so, isn't it strange that Yahweh spells out the other miqras ' the xth day of the nth month' etc but doesn't with first fruits and weeks tied to it?

Peter


I think Passover is always the 14th, but first fruits changes due to the natural sabbath, in 33 it went in a nice line - Passover starting on Thursday Sundown - that being a sabbath because Passover is always classed as a Special Sabbath, then it rolled into the 15th which started UB, then first fruits starts the day after the natural sabbath being in 33 the Sunday.


If Passover was on 14th April this year, if my reasoning is right... :P it would go...

Passover 14th - 15th

sundown on 15th into UB week

7 days of UB whatever the year month week day timespan - its always 7 days.

Sometime in that week there is a naturally occuring Sabbath - Friday sundown --> Saturday Sundown. If Passover was on Monday the 14th / tues 15th that year then the natural weekly Sabbath would happen on the standard fri-sat. So AFTER that Sabbath day is the day of First Fruits.

Obviously, Passover isn't on the 14th this year, but I wanted to pick a Monday for arguments sake :)

am I in the ball park KP? lol (how American of me!



EDIT: Ok, I thought I understood something of this, but now I realise I dont think I do, according to Yada's time this year FF is on the 16th and Passover the 19th... doesnt it flow after passover? I think I need this explaining easily :D



EDIT: Ok forget what I said above... it goes Passover-UB-FF in 3 days... I think... Passover is a sabbath, first day of UB is as well (which is the next day after Passover) and then obviously the next day is then FF... Are we nearly there yet? lol
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Offline Icy  
#8 Posted : Friday, March 14, 2008 2:22:29 AM(UTC)
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The first day of UB is always a Sabbath. So, it would seem to follow that the second day of UB is always FF. So, that would mean it is always Passover-14, UB-15-22, and FF-16.
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#9 Posted : Friday, March 14, 2008 2:44:36 AM(UTC)
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Icy wrote:
The first day of UB is always a Sabbath. So, it would seem to follow that the second day of UB is always FF. So, that would mean it is always Passover-14, UB-15-22, and FF-16.


Excellently done Icy :) Thats the one I think.
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Offline kp  
#10 Posted : Friday, March 14, 2008 6:02:11 AM(UTC)
kp
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Yeah, Icy got it right. What we need to remember is that it's not the dates that are so important (usually) but the way Yahweh presented the data. FF is not presented as being on "the 16th day of Nisan," though it is. It's presented as being the day after UB begins. In the same way, Weeks is never described as the 6th of Sivan, though it falls on that day. Rather, it is described as being fifty days after UB---a clear parallel to the Jubilee/Yowbel concept. How God says something is usually just as significant as what He says.

kp
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