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Offline Yada  
#1 Posted : Monday, March 10, 2008 8:15:10 PM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
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I have always wondered about 'The camel and the eye of the needle' metaphor in Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25. I mean, why a camel? Why not something bigger to really drive the point home, like an elephant? Even a mosquito might have a tough time getting through the eye of a needle, for that matter. Anyway, I heard a possible explanation today that I thought I would share here.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
"Another common explanation of the figure, is that Jesus was referring to a certain gate in Jerusalem called Needle's Eye. This entry-point was built like the eye of a needle and so low that a camel could pass only if it entered kneeling and unencumbered with baggage. The lesson would then be that an eternal inheritance awaits those who unburden themselves of sin, and in particular, the things of this world. Also, kneeling represents submission and humility, which are required by most religions to enter into heaven. Although there is no historical evidence that such a gate ever existed, through frequent repetition the idea has attained the status of virtual dogma in some circles."


From another web site:

Quote:
"For the last two centuries it has been common teaching in Sunday School that there is a gate in Jerusalem called the eye of the needle through which a camel could not pass unless it stooped and first had all its baggage first removed. After dark, when the main gates were shut, travellers or merchants would have to use this smaller gate, through which the camel could only enter unencumbered and crawling on its knees! Great sermon material, with the parallels of coming to God on our knees without all our baggage. A lovely story and an excellent parable for preaching but unfortunately unfounded! From at least the 15th century, and possibly as early as the 9th but not earlier, this story has been put forth, however, there is no evidence for such a gate, nor record of reprimand of the architect who may have forgotten to make a gate big enough for the camel and rider to pass through unhindered."


From another web site:

Quote:
"If you've never heard of it, I should explain. In Mark 10:25, Jesus said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
This, it had been explained to me countless times, was a reference to the smallest of the gates in the walls of Jerusalem. This passage was less a gate than a single door, just large enough for a man to walk through, but too small to afford a breach to a hostile army.

The Eye of the Needle was too small for a camel to walk through -- particularly if that camel was laden with worldly goods. If the other gates were closed, however, it could be managed. First, everything had to be taken off of the camel. Then the beast would be made to kneel, almost to crawl, to duck through the tiny gate. And then, on the other side, it could again stand up and everything could be put back on the camel.

The key I think is the end of the story, after everything is taken off the camel's back and it is made to crawl through the legendary narrow gate. Then everything is put back on the camel."


One question I did have - where was Yahshua in Mattithyahu 19:24, Mark 10:25, and Luke 18:25? Was he in Jerusalem? I came across one passage that seem to suggest that He was on His way to Jerusalem, but I wondered if anyone here knew whether or not He was in Jerusalem at the time?

Edited by user Tuesday, March 11, 2008 8:48:12 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Matthew  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2008 2:08:49 AM(UTC)
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Let's have a quote from Ken on the matter, taken from chapter 28, The End of the Beginning, of Future History:

kp wrote:
“Jesus said to His disciples, ‘Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.’ When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, ‘Who then can be saved?’ But Jesus looked at them and said to them, ‘With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible....’” The disciples were of the mindset that if a man was rich, Yahweh must have blessed him—hence he was favored by God and would surely have a prominent role in the kingdom of heaven. On the contrary, Yahshua observed that more often than not, a rich man’s wealth is an impediment to faith, not the result of it. The accumulation of wealth can, in this sinful world, result just as easily from greed and aggression as it can from God’s blessings upon our labors. As He pointed out, one cannot serve two masters. The illustration of the camel going through the eye of a needle (Greek raphis, a sewing needle) gets to the heart of the matter. The Aramaic word Yahshua probably used, gamla, can mean either camel or rope (since ropes were made from camels’ hair). Either way, the point is not (as is often taught) that the camel must be unloaded—the wealth put down—before one can enter; rather, the point is the utter impossibility of man entering the kingdom of heaven through his own efforts. No matter how hard he tries, he can’t work his way in, and no matter how rich he is, he can’t buy his way in. Only Yahweh can provide access to Yahweh.
Offline Icy  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:31:40 AM(UTC)
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KP's explanation makes much more sense to me than a possibly made up "needle's eye". Even if the needle gate was a real gate, then the idea promoted by this is that man's works are what matters because it is saying, "man has to unload himself (working) to enter" which we all know is not true. Our works are not what gets us in, but rather our relationship.

Even before I read kp's explanation, I had something of the sort in mind, because it did not make sense in my mind to picture a camel going through the eye of a needle, but trying to thread a needle with a rope, now that is an apt metaphor.
Offline Yada  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:20:14 AM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

Does anyone have any idea where Yahshua was when this encounter took place? Again, from my initial post:

Quote:
One question I did have - where was Yahshua in Mattithyahu 19:24, Mark 10:25, and Luke 18:25? Was he in Jerusalem? I came across one passage that seem to suggest that He was on His way to Jerusalem, but I wondered if anyone here knew whether or not He was actually in Jerusalem at the time?

Edited by user Tuesday, March 11, 2008 8:27:41 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:36:02 AM(UTC)
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my thought about the eye of the needle gate thing is, the guys who built the city decided to put a gate that was too small to get through into the side of the city... I know they didn't have CAD back then, but come on... I mean maybe if they had a strange sense of humor... we can tell that these guys knew what they were doing when they built stuff, I doubt they would have put that gate in.

Even if it was a mistake, and the measurements did not add up, I would have just filled it in...
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Matthew  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:50:24 AM(UTC)
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Yada, I'm not good with geography so can't pinpoint the location but both first verses of the relevant chapters of Matthew and Mark mention that "he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan." KP also goes into great detail about "Richard" in chapter 14 (Time, Place and Attitude) of TOM, the whole first section is dedicated to this topic, however there's no mention of the gate in Jerusalem.

Also concerning why a camel and not an elephant: I think if the correct Hebrew word is indeed a "camel" and not "rope" then I'm assuming because people sitting around would easily be able to identify with it, how many people back then had seen an elephant before?

I've always had the understanding that this passage means that the rich are unwilling (hesitant) to enter the Kingdom because they already have all their needs met through financial wealth. They fear they will lose their security, and lifestyle, if having to follow Yahushua. It's not that they can't enter the Kingdom but instead that many of them are simply unwilling to. You know how it goes, "I don't need Jesus, I already have everything I need and want!" Or secretly to themselves, "This requires a complete change of life, I wonder what my family and friends will think? Hell, they deny evolution saying the world was created 6000 years ago, their teachings are outdated, and just the other day they go and invent new "modern" sins. These Christians are crazy!"

I also think this passage of Scripture implies that it's not that they are trying to get to Heaven through works, but it's about their unwillingness to lose their security, financial wealth, social status, etc.

Sorry if we hijacked the topic Yada and diverted away from the gate thing, I'm no historian so I'll just hold my horses from now, Yee Ha!
Offline bitnet  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, March 12, 2008 5:35:41 AM(UTC)
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Posts: 1,120

Shalom All,

Historically there seems to be no evidence about a hole in the wall called the eye a needle. Metaphorically the message makes good sense about people's unwillingness to leave material things behind in lieu of much greater spiritual rewards to come. Faith is called into question, without which it is nigh impossible to enter the Kingdom of Yahweh.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Yada  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, March 12, 2008 7:12:21 PM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

I've been using eSword trying to find an answer to the question I initially posed: where was Yahshua when he made this statement about the "eye of a needle?" From one commentary: compare the Jewish proverb, that a man did not even in his dreams see an elephant pass through the eye of a needle. The reason why the camel was substituted for the elephant was because the proverb was from the Babylonian Talmud, and in Babylon the elephant was common, while in Palestine it was unknown.

The Talmud (I know, I know) includes this bit of wisdom that I thought was interesting:
Quote:
“A needle's eye is not too narrow for two friends, nor is the world wide enough for two enemies.”


Finally, from the same commentary and true to form:
Quote:
The Koran has the same figure: “The impious shall find the gates of heaven shut; nor shall he enter there till a camel shall pass through the eye of a needle.”


Can anyone suggest a reference I could use that would tell me where Yahshua was in Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25?



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Offline Yada  
#9 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:24:10 AM(UTC)
Yada
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3,537

Thanks Swalchy - this is good information.

Do you know anything about the organization of the Pharisees? Were they centered in and around Jerusalem (and the 2nd Temple) or were they to be found throughout the country (at the beit knesset/synagoues)? In the preceeding verses, He deals with a question about divorce posed by a group of Pharisees, and I wondered where such an encounter might have taken place? Since the text states that Yahshua was on His way to Jerusalem, I wondered if, in fact, He had actually arrived there when the "camel and eye of the needle" metaphor was related?

Thanks again for taking the time to respond to my earlier question. It's a great help.
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