 Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
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I was reading in "The Two Babylons," by Alexander Hislop, about the history and use of "relics" in the RCC. I came across this rather amusing Q & A exchange on a site devoted to Saint John Neumann. The site is here. If you click on "home" you can actually see photos of his body that is currently on display at the church (this stuff gives me the creeps). To give you a sense of where the Church's thinking is today on "relics," here is an excerpt from one of the exchanges: Q: Can't all this get mixed up with mere superstition? A: True religion does get mixed up with superstition. That's the way it is. I have reprinted the body of Q & A exchanges below: Quote:Can't all this get mixed up with mere superstition?
I suppose it does at times. Some people refer to superstitions as "folk belief." This folk belief is also looking for the power. It looks for it sometimes in a rabbit's foot, or some other lucky charm. It looks for the power also in rituals. Look, for instance, at the antics of some baseball players getting in and out of the batter's box. The ritual may include a sign of the cross, or have nothing to do with anything religious. On a more human and personal level we look for the power in the photo we carry in our wallet or in the locket around our neck, or in the rosary or other keepsake handed down to us by people now deceased. True religion does get mixed up with superstition. That's the way it is.
Shouldn't you be more upset by this superstition?
Why? It is an expression of something deep in human nature, which I have referred to as seeking the power. Mere sentimentality is not true feeling of any worth, is it? But don't you think it comes from the same country as the feeling that creates great music and poetry? Can you imagine anyone who is not sentimental sometimes? It is the job of real religion, of the Catholic Church, to lead people from sentimentality to a better beauty, and from superstition to real faith. Faith in God, who alone is the Holy and Powerful One.
You have to admit that there is something odd about the Catholic Church's attitude toward relics.
Maybe among other churches, yes. But even in secular American life relics have a place you may think odd. For instance, you can find locks of George Washington's hair at Valley Forge, and other places around the country. In Boston some of his hair his kept in a golden urn fashioned by Paul Revere! On his Inauguration Day President Teddy Roosevelt wore a ring that contained hair of Abraham Lincoln. Don't you think he was looking for the power?
I think I get what you're saying. In a place like this Shrine of Saint John Neumann we see religion on a popular level. Maybe it is a baptized "folk belief."
You're onto it. This place is two things. It is the Roman Catholic Parish of St. Peter the Apostle in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. No doubt about the "Roman Catholic." You see it in the official rites of the Church--Baptism, the Mass, Confession or Reconciliation. But there is something else in the air, too. And that is the feeling and devotion of popular Catholic faith. This parish church was already here when Saint John Neumann died in 1860. The Shrine of Saint John Neumann was built by the faith and prayers of the people who have been coming here to pray and seek the power. It is not a separate building, but a reality of faith and feeling. The tradition lives on - you can watch a video entitled, "Kissing the bones of Theresa" here. Edited by user Sunday, November 18, 2007 5:20:58 PM(UTC)
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 Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC) Posts: 2,616  Location: Texas Thanks: 5 times
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Keeping a lock of GW hair, for histroical reasons, or Teddy Roosevelt wearing a ring with some of Lincoln's hair in, if that is even true, are no where near the same as what th eRCC has done with Relics. Perhaps TR kept the hair in the ring to remind him of Lincoln's greatness, giving him somthing to aspire to. And even if it was to "give him power" it is still not the same as a group proclaiming to be the Voice of God doing it. |
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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 Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
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As it goes should the church aspire to be like Teddy Roosevelt or the Valley Forge society? Is that their highest spiritual attainment. Those justifications are ridiculous! I mean think about how that really sounds.
Well, Teddy Roosevelt did it!!!!(insert little know it all disrespectful brat's voice)
It's altogether fitting that the RCC would worship and adore bones...Afterall Yahushua told Sardis they were dead.
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YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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 Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
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On the topic of relics, did anyone see the History Channel's program on the the Three Magi? Apparently their skulls are in a cathedral in Germany. The history is rather, er, intriguing and the claims and assumptions are astounding. Is it important? Not really, but it did shed some light on archaelogical forensic investigative methods. The host also postulated the identity of the star of Bethlehem was the planet Jupiter based on its brightness and path in the night sky and that the nativity happened in 4 BC, if my memory serves me right. Any others caught this program? |
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom. |
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 Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC) Posts: 641 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
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Sounds like a bunch of misinformation to me, Bitnet. For one, we don't know how many Magi there were, scripture never says. The names we have for the "Three" Magi are made up, we don't know their names. But, the fact that they have supposed skulls for these guys in a cathedral is sad. I recently saw a DVD about the star of Bethlehem. I think it was called "The Star of Bethlehem". It is actually quite good. I don't agree comletely with the presenter (Rick Larson), but he did an excellent job of postulating and tracking down what the "star" actually was. He doesn't use the errent date of 4 BC either, and even explains why that date is wrong. Though, he does show that it likely was Jupitar as well as another planet that was close by (I don't remember which one). To the naked eye, it looks like one bright star, but using astrology software, you can zoom in and see the two right next to each other. It is worth watching. This is the website: http://bethlehemstar.net/
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Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
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My thoughts exactly, Icy. Nobody knows for sure how many Magi there were despite the traditions. Constantine's mother wanted some connection as did Justinian's so they all clutched at straws and today we have strawmen. |
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom. |
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 Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,470 Location: England Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
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bitnet wrote:Apparently their skulls are in a cathedral in Germany. hehe reminds me of "peter's seat" :) But I wonder who's skulls they are then? |
Signature Updated! Woo that was old... |
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Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
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I was doing some reading today about the "95 Theses" of Martin Luther and came across this reference to the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany, where apparently many "relics" were kept. I have underlined the portion that particularly caught my eye: Quote:"The Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany, in the Holy Roman Empire, where the Ninety-five Theses famously appeared, held one of Europe's largest collections of religious artifacts, or holy relics. These had been piously collected by Frederick III. At that time pious veneration, or viewing, relics was purported to allow the viewer to receive relief from temporal punishment for sins in purgatory. By 1509 Frederick had over 5,000 relics, purportedly "including vials of the milk of the Virgin Mary, straw from the manger [of Jesus], and the body of one of the innocents massacred by King Herod."1]
The relics were kept in reliquaries and exhibited once a year for the faithful to venerate. "In 1509, each devout visitor who donated toward the preservation of the Castle Church received an indulgence of one hundred days per relic." This would allow the person relief of 100 days in purgatory, and thus hasten their entry into heaven. By 1520 Frederick had increased his collection to over 19,000 relics, allowing pilgrims viewing them to receive an indulgence that would reduce their time in purgatory by 5,209 years." Quoting: " including vials of the milk of the Virgin Mary, straw from the manger [of Jesus], and the body of one of the innocents massacred by King Herod." Can you believe it? The Wikipedia page I got this from is here. If you'd like to read a copy of Luther's 95 Theses, you can find them here. |
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I wonder if it's sour by now?
But perhaps being that she's the queen of heaven and coredemptrix and all...it might not be....hmmm |
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC) Posts: 641 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
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I'm sure that they claim it has some sort of healing powers and what not.
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 Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
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If not us, who? If not now, when? |
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Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
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Not to cast doubt on the authenticity of all relics but what is the purpose if not to draw people to the Creator? Can or will it lead to salvation? Will miracles help convince people about our Creator or simply impress upon them that there is a god? In the Far East we see all sorts of "miraculous" things happen to people and it is all supposed to be godly, but the people do not know Yahweh. So do these relics do something or just remind people about the historical record and invite closer and deeper understanding? My brief understanding on the history of Europe is that relics do nothing really worthwhile in the grand scheme of things but become objects of worship that draw people away from Truth instead of to it; relics become idols and make men break the second commandment.
Shalom |
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom. |
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