Shabbat Shalom All,

Can anyone help with the verse below?

Rev 20:10

(ALT) And the Devil, the one leading them astray (fig., deceiving them), was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur (or, brimstone), where the beast and the false prophet (are), and they will be tormented day and night into the ages of the ages (fig., forever and ever).

(HNT) והשטן אשר הדיחם השלך באגם־אש וגפרית אשר־שם גם־החיה ונביא השקר ויסרו יומם ולילה לעולמי עולמים׃

(ISV) and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.

(KJV+) And2532 the3588 devil1228 that deceived4105 them846 was cast906 into1519 the3588 lake3041 of fire4442 and2532 brimstone,2303 where3699 the3588 beast2342 and2532 the3588 false prophet5578 are, and2532 shall be tormented928 day2250 and2532 night3571 forever and ever1519, 165, 165

(LITV) And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

(MKJV) And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

(YLT) and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.

There seems to be a difference between the choice of word used... is it "are" or "were" and "he" or "they"?

If it is singular, referring to the Adversary, then the false prophet and beast have been consumed by the fire while the spiritual being will be tormented forever. If it is "they," that means the FP&B have been given immortality to suffer along with the devil and may pose a challenge in understanding how Yahweh penalises mortal insubordination for the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

The bottom line is that if we want to share satan's fate, we must choose to have a relationship with him (the same as with Yahweh). The default (your fate if you don't choose anything) is dissipation, as with any animal. It may be helpful to review an interesting observation about the lake of fire that came up when I was studying the Great White Throne judgment. In FH, at the end of Chapter 29 (The Three Doors), I wrote...



kp

Shalom Brothers & Sisters,

This is how we learn, by discussing Scripture and trying to understand it in every way possible so that there can be no misunderstanding about The Word and its role in our Salvation. I appreciate very much the replies that Swalchy and KP have given and I had understood it from the first time I had read it in the books on this site.

We all know that our Almighty Father Yahweh is Just, and that He is also Gracious and Merciful. The reason I started this thread is to blot out any misunderstanding that may arise from reading YY, as I do not want this effort to be undermined by a misunderstanding of statements that seem contradictory with Scripture.

It is with great respect for Yada and KP that I wrote the above, as I want it searched out completely and I am confident that they are capable of determining this to its fullest extent. Whether I am right or wrong is immaterial, what must stand is Truth. If their understanding is complete and correct, then this discussion shall clear the air. However, if it means rewriting some parts of their books, I know that they will.

We of course know that the place reserved for the saints, the believers who are sanctified by the precious blood of Yahushua, shall be in the Kingdom of Heaven. For this we are mighty glad and praise Father Yahweh for the mercies that He has shown upon us. So there is no discussion here on this point.

In the above replies, we all agree that sin leads to death. My thought is that separation (thanatos) is a result of sin, and therefore leads to death (nekros). For mortal humans, thanatos is not the penalty but nekros is, but implicit in its meaning is thanatos for eternity.



Where is the third destination described in the quote above? It only clearly states that Yahushua came to give life and save us from death, not perpetual anguish. Y'shayahu 26:14 quoted above supports this, and Y'shayahu 26:19 and Ephesians 5:14 only confirms the resurrection of the righteous dead, not the fate of the wicked.

We also agree that the lake of eternal fire is for Satan and his cohorts. Their placement in this abyss shall be thanatos for eternity. I strongly suspect that Satan is jealous that humans can be dissipated while he will not be dissipated.

So herein begins the discussion in earnest. I'm not trying to be adversarial but merely seeking the possibility that Scripture actually supports the following idea:

Door 1 -- The Kingdom of Yahweh. For believers and doers, those appointed with the Set-Apart Spirit whether pre-Millenium or post-Millenium. (No discussion needed here.)
Door 2 -- Gehenna. The place where evil doers are destroyed in an unquenchable fire, where nekros is found.
Door 3 -- Abyss. Final destination for Satan and his spirit minions. Not for mortal humans.

Now bear with me a while as I go through this train of thought.

1) Our Almighty Elohim created the mighty angels, who shall live for eternity from the point of creation. Satan rebelled with his minions and was cast out.

2) The contention that Yahweh created man to live a short time only to judge whether good or bad so that they can be in heaven or hell for eternity is troublesome as it does not seem to conform to His character. He had already done that with the angels, so why repeat? Humans were created mortal because they can be mercifully destroyed.

3) For this mercy, He gave humans a chance at being called His children.

4) Therefore, freedom of choice is what He set before us: to be part of His Family or die.

5) To enable freedom of choice, He let loose Satan for a while.

6) At the end of everything, He binds Satan and destroys death because His plan is complete.

Now, looking at Scripture, "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:38-42) This seems to support the eternal damnation of humans in hellfire, especially with the gnashing of teeth which is seen as emotional reaction to the punishment. Looking closely at this now, when the people are resurrected mortal and awaiting judgement in front of Yahweh's Great White Throne, they will see the lake of fire below. The "sheep" shall be afraid but comforted by the angels and the saints, whereas the "goats" shall realise that the fire is their destiny and shall wail at the sight.

That is why there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, utter frustration at realising their evil thoughts and ways has brought them to this point. It is not going to be fun to be thrown into the fire even for one second, let alone for eternity. Even the most wicked shall fear this fire, and shall tremble at the sight. Now, has this fire been prepared for them or for the Adversary? It was prepared for Satan and his minions, but is a convenient way to punish his human followers into total annihilation. Will Satan then have the pleasure of having billions of human followers following him into perdition? No, Yahweh shall deny Satan this pleasure as the fire will consume them. There is no life for them, not even in the abyss of hellfire, and Satan shall only have the same fallen angels with him. He would not have "even won one soul for himself." Reading the above passage from Matt 13:38-42 carefully, there is no mention of a third door. The weeds are reaped and cast into the fire, which is Door 2: Gehenna.

Now Matt 25:46 demands that the wicked be punished eternally. But:



There must be a clearer explanation for Matt 25:46, and if the text is read such that eternal punishment is death, could it also not suffice?

Are these fair inferences? Is it Scriptural thus far in that it does not postulate (a) the Hellenistic eternal soul? (b) a war for souls between Yahweh and Satan? and (c) thrusting mortal humans into eternal damnation for a short, finite term of rebellion?

With regards to Matt 8:12, could not Yahushua also be referring to the fact that the sons of the kingdom shall weep and gnash their teeth in the darkness just before His return to earth when they raced out of Yahrushalayim to avoid the persecution of the False Prophet and Beast? That the realisation that they had Salvation at hand all along, but did nothing to grasp it, and that it had led them through separation for two thousand years, three and a half years of tribulation and another three and half years of Great Tribulation? That the living rabbis, priests and clergy who were stubborn to the salvation of Yahushua may also gnash their teeth when they realise that they shall be heading for the great fire in the Valley of Hinnom for all the lies and evil that they propagated?

If this is acceptable, and is consistent with Scripture and Yahweh's merciful nature, then we do not need to have wicked people roasting in eternity. HalleluYah!

Now let us deal with those who are not intentionally wicked, and have been deceived and have not known Yahweh. Great are the numbers of these people who have been misled into following all sorts of religions. Would Yahweh simply treat them as dross and throw them into the fire to burn as chaff? I strongly feel my Elohim would not do such a thing to those who strive to obey the Golden Rule as best as they know it.

On the contrary, the resurrection of the dead, small and great, is the first step of re-education. Why else raise them again? They are already dead! Our Merciful and Loving Father would not raise these people who did not know Him just to say, "Die in the fire for not knowing me!"

No, by raising them mortal, they would once again have an understanding that there is a choice for eternal life through the Sacrifice of Yahushua, and that other people have made it and now stand before them as testimony to the Grace and Power of Father Yahweh. (This understanding was twisted and that is why there are some religions that promote reincarnation.)

Therefore, in that Great Day, the downtrodden, the meek, the poor in spirit, and the pure in heart who have been resurrected shall not face perdition but mercy. They shall be given a chance to understand, for the first time in all honesty, that Father Yahweh offers Life. They shall understand this because they are not standing in the other queue! In their mortal state, they shall look across the chasm and see the people that deliberately deceived and misled them. The oppressors. The wicked. The sorcerers. The warmongers. The ungodly. And these resurrected mortal "sheep" shall know that the fire is NOT their destiny and shall praise the Creator greatly! Some of them shall see people they know resurrected into the Kingdom of Heaven and shall not doubt Yahweh's mercy. Many shall recognise Yahushua and realise that they were deceived during their earlier life on earth, and shall unlearn their old ways for Truth. In fact, as they stand in the presence of Yahweh in that Great City they will KNOW that this is the Creator, however they called Him during their earlier lifetime.

Imagine those born without a chance to know Yahweh earlier in their life -- those afflicted by debilitating diseases, those with brain disorders, those who have been aborted in the womb, those who died young, those who died without hearing The Word -- now given sight and understanding of Yahweh. They shall fall to their knees! They shall confess Yahweh and praise Him for making everything that was wrong with them right for the very first time!

Among all these people shall be members of our families! And it shall be up to us to re-educate them so that they too may be transformed into the likeness of our Saviour. They shall not taste death a second time but in the fullness of understanding shall be given life at the appropriate moment. They shall get their passport into Eternity! Is this not reflective of the true nature of our Almighty Elohim, Father Yahweh? There is no waste. There is no dross. There is a day of salvation for them. HalleluYah!

Remember this passage?
Mat 13:10 And the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.
Mat 13:12 For whoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance. But whoever does not have, from him shall be taken away even that which he has.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, "By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive;
Mat 13:15 for this people's heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear what you hear, and have not heard them.

There are readers of Scripture who claim that this the nature of a vindictive, mischievous God, choosing some people while purposely hiding Truth from the rest so that He can cast them into fire later. Would Yahushua simply neglect His people whom He came to save? No, His plan for them is to be carried out later. For now, those who stood in line for tickets first get a chance at the best seats. Those who do not think, queue in another line and wait. Those who think otherwise and oppose Him, get the hottest seats!

So then, at the end of it all, those with a relationship with Yahweh shall not die, whereas those who associate themselves with Satan shall truly die. Satan and his minions shall be banished into the Abyss forever.

Fellow Yahudym, could this not be the case as is written in Scripture? Would not this be the Great News of the Kingdom of Yahweh? Check Scripture and give your replies. Let not this post be the end of the discussion, but let us not be guided by popular thought. I know that I shall stand corrected by Truth, just as I now stand in the Light of Yahweh's Mercy.

Blessings and Peace!

P.S. Please read The Future's History and Yada Yahweh first before trying to add to this post, otherwise you shall slow down the discussion. It has to do with some translations quoted at the beginning of this thread, which seem to be conflicting, but which may have far reaching consequences.

Edited by user Sunday, February 3, 2008 11:19:17 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

we already have an immortal soul.....







... just kidding :)


I did read it once, but I really need to read it again :) will do tonight :)

Hello Robski,

Thanks for taking this up. Some of the language was a bit too imprecise as it was written in one go late at night.

We do know that Yahweh made us to be His children, and for a while we are to be lower than the angels. So the reason we were made lower than the angels is because in His mercy He can terminate those that have, er, not made the cut or grade. With regards to the angels, I think He made them with free will as well, but He empowered them tremendously, and for that reason they are made differently with a spirit body. Once their character is formed, it is set and there is no turning back. So with greater power came greater responsibility and hence, a greater reckoning. I cannot discuss much about the angels because they are so different and my understanding of them is so limited. Right now we are like butterflies in a cocoon, waiting to be freed to fly through the air. Before knowing Yahweh, we were like little caterpillars, munching everything in sight. Destructive caterpillars get squashed, but "good" caterpillars that drop off the tree and die get reincarnated to have another go at being butterflies with earlier butterflies as their guides. Not a very good analogy and it is probably going to give you another headache! :-))

Shalom Aleichem!

Edited by user Tuesday, February 5, 2008 5:45:50 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

So, just why can't, ( won't?), Yahuweh dissipate a spirit? Would it be a compromise of His integrity?

ok - diving back in to the epic post of epicness...



Well, I think its more - have a relationship or live a life unaware and get pretty much what you expect when you die.



I think so, although I have not really looked at this properly from the non-Christian theological approach, I'm still tainted a little by my upbringing...



I'll go with that :) lol




no comment on most of that - my brain stopped working through some of it LOL I would definitely agree that fire isn't fun though!

I will say though I think you are on the right track, all will be thrown in - but like Ken said, the lake is kinda like a sieve. ya get chucked in, and most will be dissipated, but a few will be tied to Satan's fate. Not billions though. Being born from below has the opposite effect of being born from above - you get eternity - just in other circumstances... Its not like Yah is not being merciful, its just that if you have chosen to tie yourself to Satan instead of Yah then you is going down, through your own choice... It would be better to tie a millstone around your neck and jump into the sea... (I think the line goes :D )

I do think the Lake will be used for soul destruction though



I don't think there is particularly a war for souls. I would say that Satan is probably doing everything he can to keep us away from Yah. I don't understand (c) as well.



Im sure the earth will be ringing with the sound of gnashing teeth :)



Well - I don't believe we neeeed "wicked" people roasting in eternity, I don't think them being in there or not has anything to do with Yah's merciful nature. I think its more a case of, if you have tied yourself to the "big red dude with horns" you are following him in...



Well unfortunately we can only judge our own hearts - we were told the path was narrow, so I suppose we have to judge ourselfs by that path. If we are judging by that path though, and it is narrow, I don't think people who are following other religions because they don't know any better have much of a chance, if im honest. The reason I think that? Because the path is narrow, no one can enter accept through the atoning sacrifice of Yahushua Messiah... The relationship with Yah has to be there, because salvation is the by product of knowing and being known by our daddy.

I dislike the word wicked, because its not about what you do - unless Yah tells us specifically... like deception for example. I'm sure there are many massive humanitarians that will never see eternity, no matter how many good things they have done.



don't know enough - Yah has His reasons :)



I think there is a cut off point though, remember the parable of the lamps and the wedding feast? There was a cut off, they knew they had missed it but no entry was gained... keep banging on the door, but one day all the chances are going to run out.



Dunno, shall have to get back to ya on that bit - im sure someone else with a few neurons in the right configuration could give a better POV than me :)



Im not sure on the way it works with these dudes, im positive that Yah will be able to sort it out though :) I think its for Him to judge such a hard call, although if I were Him, it would not be a hard call... open the gates!!! LoL



See now that sound quite it don't matter what you do, your in coz Yah is merciful... He said the path is narrow, Yah is the great judge and there is a cut off time. I can't comment or speculate, I wish it was true - but I cant say that it is.



So there are 3 destinations? Best seats, Queue and hot seats? :P Readers who believe the God who said that was vindictive and mischievous happily forget that word was spread about Yahushua because of the amazing miracles He was doing, the rumor that He might possibly be the Messiah... If you were looking for it - you could not miss it, and its believed, and evident, that a lot of Israel actually did see Him as the Messiah. I believe the Pharisees, sadjucies, scribes knew who He was - they KNEW the timing was right because of the Daniel prophesy, and the evidence came when they sent a messenger out to Johnny the Baptist asking if He was the Messiah - the time was ripe... The people knew who He was, the teachers knew - the Priests MUST have known lol. He just wasn't the right shape for the "teachers of the law"

Relationship is work, its a love affair, finding out who your lover is, is all part of the thrill. The person who said that missed the point that Yah was getting at. The answers were all there, all around in what He said - in the miracles He did and the prophesy He for filled, you just had to care enough to look. If you cared enough to look, you obviously had the scent of your lover fresh in your nose ;)





Agree with the first bit, second bit: I would say if you associate yourself with Satan you tie yourself to His fate - as for the rest - destruction awaits. Its their choice. I just don't see it, sorry dude, where is the free will if you have a lake of fire and Yah standing in front of you - "excuse me sir, in all your wonderful Glory and radient love that I have never thought possible - I choose the lake, it looks nice as warm..." That's not really free will to me... Its like someone handing you an ice cream while holding a gun to your head and asking you to choose which one you would prefer...



Maybe - but I feel Yah has done everything He can to help us avoid any other fate than the one with Him. What happens to us, is down to us ultimatly, He cant do any more, if He did do any more we could not make a loving and free choice to walk beside Him - I think the next stage would be Neon signs, but knowing the world, that would not be obvious enough...



To you too! an excellent thread my friend :) I hope someone else can add and take away to the above prattle...



As a disclaimer, I have read FH and YY... I just don't remember too good sir, sorry :) Im not an academic, I don't remember very well - but I lub my dad and I lean on Him for my understanding :) (He blessed me with Swalchy the encyclopaedia anyway...)

Peace!

- Robski

Hello Everybody!

Nice to know that Heretic Steve is also reading this and wondering a bit... especially about the angels. Well, I think that Yahweh made them spirit and gave them a choice: be with Him or against Him for all eternity. I suppose El-Shaddai explained all that there is needed about their choice, as He had given them much power. Therefore, He would have prepared for some rebellion. What would have happened if a high percentage rebelled? It would not make a difference as He would have incarcerated all. Could He dissipate them? Yes, of course, but He had made them such and gave them such power and had explained the consequence of choice. So those who rebelled had to face to the separation from Yahweh for eternity, tossed aside like bad virus code onto a super-sized hard disk and kept in a deep, dark, hot drawer. Humans are like somewhat like Angels Version 2.0 but our choice was slightly different in that if the code is unusable it will be erased. Good code shall be used to develop a more advanced software than Angels 1.0. Not a very good analogy but perhaps that is the difference in my feeble mind. It's akin to writing some game software with AI that develops by itself after priming it with basic code. See what happens as the AI develops. Remember the book and movie "I, Robot" where a robot developed its AI? Think along those lines for a while.

In fact, if you think about it a while, if you made a robot and gave it some basic AI to see if develops well on its own with some input from you once in a while, you'd keep a close watch on it as it progresses. If the robot's AI is not doing too well, you'd try to rewrite some of its modules. But if the robot does not come to you for AI program updates, then it would just continue in error. If you made a bunch of these robots, some may come back to you and some would not. At the end of the day, what would you do to those robots that did not meet your standards?

But getting back to the discussion above, would it not be the same with Father Yahweh? Destroy, or punish for eternity? I'd think destruction as I would not want to torment my children for eternity based on their mortal behaviour for a short period. But that will not prevent me from dealing with them severely as is needed for the evil things that they do while they live. Thereby it is wise to fear the Day of Yahweh and His righteous wrath when He treads the wine presses in full anger. Meanwhile, as believers AND followers, we have little to fear for we know that our Heavenly Abba looks over us as His children. We do not want to contemplate anything beyond Door 1 for ourselves.

Peace Be!