Shalom Brothers & Sisters,
This is how we learn, by discussing Scripture and trying to understand it in every way possible so that there can be no misunderstanding about The Word and its role in our Salvation. I appreciate very much the replies that Swalchy and KP have given and I had understood it from the first time I had read it in the books on this site.
We all know that our Almighty Father Yahweh is Just, and that He is also Gracious and Merciful. The reason I started this thread is to blot out any misunderstanding that may arise from reading YY, as I do not want this effort to be undermined by a misunderstanding of statements that seem contradictory with Scripture.
It is with great respect for Yada and KP that I wrote the above, as I want it searched out completely and I am confident that they are capable of determining this to its fullest extent. Whether I am right or wrong is immaterial, what must stand is Truth. If their understanding is complete and correct, then this discussion shall clear the air. However, if it means rewriting some parts of their books, I know that they will.
We of course know that the place reserved for the saints, the believers who are sanctified by the precious blood of Yahushua, shall be in the Kingdom of Heaven. For this we are mighty glad and praise Father Yahweh for the mercies that He has shown upon us. So there is no discussion here on this point.
In the above replies, we all agree that sin leads to death. My thought is that separation (thanatos) is a result of sin, and therefore leads to death (nekros). For mortal humans, thanatos is not the penalty but nekros is, but implicit in its meaning is thanatos for eternity.
Quote:[In John 3:16 the distinction is between eternal life and death, not life and eternal sorrow: ""For God so loved the world that He gave (didomi - delivered, bestowed as a gift, put Himself in our place) His one and only Son (huios - term of relationship and association), that whoever relies upon (pisteuo - trusts and believes in) Him shall not perish (apollumi - be destroyed, be lost, abolished, put to an end, and become dead) but have eternal life (aionios zoe)." So long as there are three destinations, eternal life, perishing annihilation, and perpetual anguish, Yahweh is free to distinguish between any two of the three and still be completely accurate. But if there are only two fates, the fact He has described three, would make His Word unreliable.
Where is the third destination described in the quote above? It only clearly states that Yahushua came to give life and save us from death, not perpetual anguish. Y'shayahu 26:14 quoted above supports this, and Y'shayahu 26:19 and Ephesians 5:14 only confirms the resurrection of the righteous dead, not the fate of the wicked.
We also agree that the lake of eternal fire is for Satan and his cohorts. Their placement in this abyss shall be thanatos for eternity. I strongly suspect that Satan is jealous that humans can be dissipated while he will not be dissipated.
So herein begins the discussion in earnest. I'm not trying to be adversarial but merely seeking the possibility that Scripture actually supports the following idea:
Door 1 -- The Kingdom of Yahweh. For believers and doers, those appointed with the Set-Apart Spirit whether pre-Millenium or post-Millenium. (No discussion needed here.)
Door 2 -- Gehenna. The place where evil doers are destroyed in an unquenchable fire, where nekros is found.
Door 3 -- Abyss. Final destination for Satan and his spirit minions. Not for mortal humans.
Now bear with me a while as I go through this train of thought.
1) Our Almighty Elohim created the mighty angels, who shall live for eternity from the point of creation. Satan rebelled with his minions and was cast out.
2) The contention that Yahweh created man to live a short time only to judge whether good or bad so that they can be in heaven or hell for eternity is troublesome as it does not seem to conform to His character. He had already done that with the angels, so why repeat? Humans were created mortal because they can be mercifully destroyed.
3) For this mercy, He gave humans a chance at being called His children.
4) Therefore, freedom of choice is what He set before us: to be part of His Family or die.
5) To enable freedom of choice, He let loose Satan for a while.
6) At the end of everything, He binds Satan and destroys death because His plan is complete.
Now, looking at Scripture, "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:38-42) This seems to support the eternal damnation of humans in hellfire, especially with the gnashing of teeth which is seen as emotional reaction to the punishment. Looking closely at this now, when the people are resurrected mortal and awaiting judgement in front of Yahweh's Great White Throne, they will see the lake of fire below. The "sheep" shall be afraid but comforted by the angels and the saints, whereas the "goats" shall realise that the fire is their destiny and shall wail at the sight.
That is why there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, utter frustration at realising their evil thoughts and ways has brought them to this point. It is not going to be fun to be thrown into the fire even for one second, let alone for eternity. Even the most wicked shall fear this fire, and shall tremble at the sight. Now, has this fire been prepared for them or for the Adversary? It was prepared for Satan and his minions, but is a convenient way to punish his human followers into total annihilation. Will Satan then have the pleasure of having billions of human followers following him into perdition? No, Yahweh shall deny Satan this pleasure as the fire will consume them. There is no life for them, not even in the abyss of hellfire, and Satan shall only have the same fallen angels with him. He would not have "even won one soul for himself." Reading the above passage from Matt 13:38-42 carefully, there is no mention of a third door. The weeds are reaped and cast into the fire, which is Door 2: Gehenna.
Now Matt 25:46 demands that the wicked be punished eternally. But:
Quote:From YY Book 1 Chapter 7 - Nesemah
YadaYahweh wrote:
If God's plan were to eternally torture all who chose not to love Him, He would be unlovable. Such a Spirit would be a sadistic psychopath, unworthy of reverence and worthy only of fear and loathing. A loving, merciful, and rational God could not say: "If you don't choose to love Me, I'm going to torment you forever."
There must be a clearer explanation for Matt 25:46, and if the text is read such that eternal punishment is death, could it also not suffice?
Are these fair inferences? Is it Scriptural thus far in that it does not postulate (a) the Hellenistic eternal soul? (b) a war for souls between Yahweh and Satan? and (c) thrusting mortal humans into eternal damnation for a short, finite term of rebellion?
With regards to Matt 8:12, could not Yahushua also be referring to the fact that the sons of the kingdom shall weep and gnash their teeth in the darkness just before His return to earth when they raced out of Yahrushalayim to avoid the persecution of the False Prophet and Beast? That the realisation that they had Salvation at hand all along, but did nothing to grasp it, and that it had led them through separation for two thousand years, three and a half years of tribulation and another three and half years of Great Tribulation? That the living rabbis, priests and clergy who were stubborn to the salvation of Yahushua may also gnash their teeth when they realise that they shall be heading for the great fire in the Valley of Hinnom for all the lies and evil that they propagated?
If this is acceptable, and is consistent with Scripture and Yahweh's merciful nature, then we do not need to have wicked people roasting in eternity. HalleluYah!
Now let us deal with those who are not intentionally wicked, and have been deceived and have not known Yahweh. Great are the numbers of these people who have been misled into following all sorts of religions. Would Yahweh simply treat them as dross and throw them into the fire to burn as chaff? I strongly feel my Elohim would not do such a thing to those who strive to obey the Golden Rule as best as they know it.
On the contrary, the resurrection of the dead, small and great, is the first step of re-education. Why else raise them again? They are already dead! Our Merciful and Loving Father would not raise these people who did not know Him just to say, "Die in the fire for not knowing me!"
No, by raising them mortal, they would once again have an understanding that there is a choice for eternal life through the Sacrifice of Yahushua, and that other people have made it and now stand before them as testimony to the Grace and Power of Father Yahweh. (This understanding was twisted and that is why there are some religions that promote reincarnation.)
Therefore, in that Great Day, the downtrodden, the meek, the poor in spirit, and the pure in heart who have been resurrected shall not face perdition but mercy. They shall be given a chance to understand, for the first time in all honesty, that Father Yahweh offers Life. They shall understand this because they are not standing in the other queue! In their mortal state, they shall look across the chasm and see the people that deliberately deceived and misled them. The oppressors. The wicked. The sorcerers. The warmongers. The ungodly. And these resurrected mortal "sheep" shall know that the fire is NOT their destiny and shall praise the Creator greatly! Some of them shall see people they know resurrected into the Kingdom of Heaven and shall not doubt Yahweh's mercy. Many shall recognise Yahushua and realise that they were deceived during their earlier life on earth, and shall unlearn their old ways for Truth. In fact, as they stand in the presence of Yahweh in that Great City they will KNOW that this is the Creator, however they called Him during their earlier lifetime.
Imagine those born without a chance to know Yahweh earlier in their life -- those afflicted by debilitating diseases, those with brain disorders, those who have been aborted in the womb, those who died young, those who died without hearing The Word -- now given sight and understanding of Yahweh. They shall fall to their knees! They shall confess Yahweh and praise Him for making everything that was wrong with them right for the very first time!
Among all these people shall be members of our families! And it shall be up to us to re-educate them so that they too may be transformed into the likeness of our Saviour. They shall not taste death a second time but in the fullness of understanding shall be given life at the appropriate moment. They shall get their passport into Eternity! Is this not reflective of the true nature of our Almighty Elohim, Father Yahweh? There is no waste. There is no dross. There is a day of salvation for them. HalleluYah!
Remember this passage?
Mat 13:10 And the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.
Mat 13:12 For whoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance. But whoever does not have, from him shall be taken away even that which he has.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, "By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive;
Mat 13:15 for this people's heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear what you hear, and have not heard them.
There are readers of Scripture who claim that this the nature of a vindictive, mischievous God, choosing some people while purposely hiding Truth from the rest so that He can cast them into fire later. Would Yahushua simply neglect His people whom He came to save? No, His plan for them is to be carried out later. For now, those who stood in line for tickets first get a chance at the best seats. Those who do not think, queue in another line and wait. Those who think otherwise and oppose Him, get the hottest seats!
So then, at the end of it all, those with a relationship with Yahweh shall not die, whereas those who associate themselves with Satan shall truly die. Satan and his minions shall be banished into the Abyss forever.
Fellow Yahudym, could this not be the case as is written in Scripture? Would not this be the Great News of the Kingdom of Yahweh? Check Scripture and give your replies. Let not this post be the end of the discussion, but let us not be guided by popular thought. I know that I shall stand corrected by Truth, just as I now stand in the Light of Yahweh's Mercy.
Blessings and Peace!
P.S. Please read
The Future's History and
Yada Yahweh first before trying to add to this post, otherwise you shall slow down the discussion. It has to do with some translations quoted at the beginning of this thread, which seem to be conflicting, but which may have far reaching consequences.
Edited by user Sunday, February 3, 2008 11:19:17 PM(UTC)
| Reason: Not specified