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Offline bitnet  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, January 15, 2008 11:01:06 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

I have copied an article from a newsletter at Wyatt Archaelogical Research (www.wyattmuseum.com) and edited it slightly to drive home a message. My apologies to Mr Rives and the Wyatt Foundation if this is unsuitable. Please leave a message if you wish the message is to be deleted.

- start -


Another Jesus


by Richard Rives


(First published in Wyatt ArchaeologicaL Research newsletter # 11 in 1995, edited with names transliterated on 15 Jan. 2008)


In the Book of Second Corinthians, the Apostle Paul expresses his concern that some teachers were preaching “Another Jesus”:


“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Chawah through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Messiyah. For if he that cometh preacheth another Yahushua, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” (2Corinthians 11:3-4).


We are instructed, when approached by a false teacher to “bear with him”. In the Greek manuscripts the word used for “bear with him” is “anechomi” (an-ekh'-om-ahee) which has been translated “to hold oneself up against”. We should stand firm against false teachings.


What would be considered “another Jesus”?

The Greek word used in this scripture verse is “allos” meaning different. So what we are considering is a different Yahushua; not the Yahushua of Scripture, not the only begotten son of Yahweh the Father; but “another Jesus”: an impostor.

It should be remembered that paganism dating back to the time of the “Tower of Babel”, included the veneration of the pagan gods' son. Many times the son was considered to be a savior, mediator between god and man. He was one member of the pagan trinity: the father, the son and the mother. Down through history, pagan gods and goddesses, by what ever name, have simply been the renamed sun gods and goddesses of antiquity. Whether the Nimrod, Semiramis, and the son Tammuz of the Chaldean mysteries, or the Osiris, Isis and the son Horus of Egypt: they are all the same. Most importantly, they all oppose the Scriptural Creator and His only begotten Son, the Scriptural Yahushua.

How would one differentiate between the Yahushua of Scripture and “another Jesus”? The answer is that the purely Scriptural attributes of the true when compared to the extra-Scriptural attributes of “another Jesus” will reveal the impostor. There is no other way to discern. Today there are worldly wise philosophers, “vain in their imaginations” (Romans 1:21) who teach ways that oppose the ways of Yahweh: “Another Jesus”.

Many pagan practices that have absolutely no scriptural basis are being taught as the worship of the true Elohim and Messiyah. These practices have not only been accepted but have become commonplace in many organized churches. Those who refuse to participate in those practices are considered strange and narrow- minded. These practices, introduced gradually by false teachers, have been accepted through tradition and have absolutely no scriptural basis. We have no excuse for ignorance. We have been fairly warned.


“there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies...” (2Petros 2:1)


We must search the Scriptures to find out the truth. The truth that the ways of Yahweh prescribed for His people have not changed, nor will they change. The truth that the only thing that has changed is that as believers we are no longer under the death penalty for disobedience if we come to the Father in the Name and Blood of the Son.

Activities that were unacceptable to Yahweh 6,000 years ago and unacceptable to His Son Yahushua 2,000 years ago are still unacceptable today. Messiyah said:


“This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoureth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Mattityahu / Matthew 15:9).


The prophesies of Scripture have come true: the time has come when sound doctrine is not endured. People receive teachers who tell them what they want to hear. Things that are wrong are justified, explained away: disregarding the warning:


“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” (Yahshayahu / Isaiah 5:20).


Fables and the traditions of men are substituted for the truth. We were plainly told:

“after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” (2 Timotheos / 2Timothy 4:4)


IN VAIN!


Messiyah said,


“in vain they do worship Me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Mattityahu / Matthew 15:9)


The Greek word translated “in vain” is (maten) meaning “to no end, fruitless, folly, a futile attempt”.


“Christianized” pagan activities, traditional inventions of men, are not in honor of the Scriptural Yahushua. He does not accept them as worship. Are these practices in honor of “another Jesus”? What “Jesus” prefers the commandments of unrighteous man over those of the Father? Not the Yahushua of Scripture! He said:


“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mattityahu / Matthew 5:17-19)


Heaven and earth have not passed away. His ways have not changed no matter what man's tradition teaches. Although believers are no longer under the death penalty resulting from the transgression of the law; there are penalties for rejecting it and blessings for adherence.


“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Messiyah.” (Col 2:8)


In order to worship in “spirit and in truth..” (Yahuchanon / John 4:24), the traditions of men and so called “Christianized” pagan practices that have no Scriptural authority must be rejected. Believers must remember what the Scripture teaches about blending pagan practices with worship that is pleasing to Yahweh.

“This persuasion cometh not of Him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.” (Galatians 5:9)


Believers must “speak the word..” (Philippians 1:14):

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of Yahweh, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (2 Timotheos / 2Timothy 3:16)


COMPROMISE IS NOT LOVE


Today, intolerance of compromise is considered lack of love for one another. The truth being just the opposite. If one really cares about someone he should tell them the truth, whether it makes him popular or not.

“Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.” (Mishlei / Proverbs 27:6)


When one receives a reproof it is not usually accepted as pleasing conversation. The question arises: should the truth be spoken even if it is not pleasing; or should truths be withheld because they are unpopular? Scripture gives the answer:

“He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning. Reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.” (Mishlei / Proverbs 9:10)


It is difficult to proclaim error in a way that is pleasing to those who, through the traditions of men, participate in activities never prescribed nor authorized by the Father, Yahushua His Son the Messiyah, or the believers that walked with Messiyah. Most people are not aware of the deception that has crept in. Many teachers, however, who have studied Scripture and secular history, are well aware of the origin of “Christianized” pagan practices yet they proclaim them to be accepted by the Scriptural Yahushua. The apostle Paul calls them

“unruly and vain talkers and deceivers.....whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.” (Titus 1:11)


Those concealing the truth in order to uphold the traditions of men should be told, but not in a pleasing way: Pagan tradition was never authorized by the Yahushua of Scripture - you are preaching “another Jesus”. Some teachers who honestly do not know, those who love the truth, will not receive reproof as a personal attack, but will “receive the word with all readiness of mind” (Acts 17:11): and search the scriptures to find out the truth.

Do we really love the truth?


Those that do will not be satisfied to remain like those, who, “willingly are ignorant”. (2Petros /2Peter 3:5) They will study in order to search out the truth and then respond to it. The truth must be proclaimed:

“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Messiyah:” (Ephesians 4:15)


The Scriptural Yahushua


This type of activity has been taking place throughout history. In the days of Solomon, he had to wisely proclaim:

“Lo, this only have I found, that Yahweh hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.”
(Kohelet / Ecclesiastes 7:29)


Activities proclaimed by God to be abominations are now performed in the name of Yahushua. Who authorized these things?

Not the Scriptural Yahushua, His disciples or first century believers. The Scriptural Yahushua stated:

“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.” (Yahuchanon / John 10:37)

Only “Another Jesus” could support such activity.

Blending of pagan practices with the prescribed worship of God was never accepted. A good example is when Aaron built the golden calf during the Exodus:

“he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, Tomorrow is a feast to Yahweh”... ”And Yahweh said unto Moshe, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them:” (Sh’mot / Exodus 32:9-10)

The proclamation of this pagan tradition to be in honour of Yahweh did not make it acceptable. Messiyah said:

“he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” (Yahuchanon / John 14:9)

The proclamation of pagan traditions to be in honor of Messiyah, who is one with the Father, will not make them acceptable. Pagan practices by whatever name are still pagan practices. Scripture makes it clear

“I am Yahweh, I change not....” (Mal’ahki / Malachi 3:6)

Should believers participate in ways that are opposed to Scriptural instructions? No! Absolutely not! The answer is unavoidable; so, many try to justify and make excuses. One common excuse: Although this activity is pagan in origin it has been “Christianized” and that is not what it means to me.

If we want to worship “in spirit and in truth” (Yahuchanon / John 4:24), what it means to us makes no difference. What it means to our heavenly Father should be our concern. He does not change and he does not accept pagan tradition by whatever name. Remember, He said that such activity is in vain.

In accordance with Scriptural instructions we must hold fast the faithful word of sound doctrine. A small amount of research using historical reference books or any good encyclopedia will reveal the pagan origin of many non-Scriptural practices. This common type of reference material is available at public libraries. Those who have poor eyesight or difficulty in reading, for whatever reason, can simply ask. It is no secret; most theologians are well aware of the pagan origins of some activities now proclaimed to be “Christian”. The secret is: why this is being accepted. Most importantly, a study of the Scriptures will reveal that there is no Scriptural support for many of today's “Christian” activities.

Our Creator has plainly instructed us as to what is pleasing to Him and as to the type of worship He accepts. Activity in opposition to His instruction is sin. It is our responsibility to adhere to that instruction. King Solomon (Shlomo) , a man of great wisdom stated:

“Revere Yahweh, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man”
(Qohelet / Ecclesiastes 12:13)

Although salvation is

“by grace through faith... not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:9)

“sin is the transgression of the law” (1Yahuchanon / 1John 3:4)

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Yahweh forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:2)


Practices in opposition to the acceptable ways of the Scriptural Messiyah can only be in honor of “Another Jesus.”
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Tiffany  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2008 9:58:27 AM(UTC)
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Posts: 185
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This is awesome! Thanks for sharing
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:58:35 PM(UTC)
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Location: England

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
cool thanks Bit again :) nice find
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline sugarman  
#4 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 9:33:22 AM(UTC)
sugarman
Joined: 2/3/2008(UTC)
Posts: 67

http://hebrew4christians...G-d/Trinity/trinity.html

Edit:

plus Christmas, those who says it's pagan twist History itself.

Osiris, Horus etc..... were summer deities at first not winter ones and also were not celebrated on Dec 25.

It was on 274 CE the leader of the Roman Empire a pagan who taken the Sun god to make his offical date Dec 25.

He also change Osiris, Horus etc.... other gods to also be worship on this day.

http://www.touchstonemag...ticle.php?id=16-10-012-v


http://thriceholy.net/christmas.html

You can read how Osiris, Horus came to be on Dec 25. Im not saying sun worship was never done before 274 CE but that was not its offical date.

Christians were already celebrating Christmas long before its offical date was Dec 25.

Edit #2:

Also Saturn was in December yes, but that was when people got drunk and partied their heads off. To me that would be hard to say christians copy that because at first christmas didn't do those things. Well I hope that the Christians don't. I do not know about other faiths or non-faith people.

I would also say 'its not record in scripture' is a weak arugment. Jews themselves have two holidays that were not started by God and not recorded in scripture to keep.

Edit: Hi sugarman - if you do have something else to say in a topic, and yours happens to be the last post, could you please click on the "edit" button at the top of the post and add anything extra at the bottom. This saves on the extra space caused by constant posts by the same people after they were the last person to post anyway. Thanks very much.

Swalchy - Mod Team
Offline J&M  
#5 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 10:18:40 AM(UTC)
J&M
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

Welcome sugarman, I sense that you are a bit upset by this forum, and I am sorry that this is so. However this is a search for YHWH's truth, not what man would like to believe, and its thus quite difficult for 'mainstream' Christians.

In the last week it has snowed in Israel, the temperature in Arad in the Negev has been about 2 degrees centigrade. If there were shepherds abiding on the hillsides watching their flocks at the time of the birth of Messiah then it was not December, the flocks are bought down from the hills at the end of October. The end of October would also have been the feast of Atonement, an auspicious day for the arrival of Messiah.

Christmas has come to portray all that is worst in mankind, the hype starts in September and goes on for months. There is no mention of keeping Christmas in the renewed covenant (new testament), but there is plenty of mention of keeping the 'Jewish' feasts - passover, unleaven bread, firstfruits, then pentecost and finally trumpets, atonement and tabernacles. All of these feast are appointments with YHWH which we are advised to keep. Christmas and Easter have no place in a scriptual calendar as they do not hold any significance to YHWH (if they did then we would have been advised to keep those also, unfortunately both are 'inventions' of mankind)

Read 'Yada Yahweh' on the website for further information and the full significance of these things
Offline sugarman  
#6 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 10:25:26 AM(UTC)
sugarman
Joined: 2/3/2008(UTC)
Posts: 67

Originally Posted by: J& Go to Quoted Post
Welcome sugarman, I sense that you are a bit upset by this forum, and I am sorry that this is so. However this is a search for YHWH's truth, not what man would like to believe, and its thus quite difficult for 'mainstream' Christians.

In the last week it has snowed in Israel, the temperature in Arad in the Negev has been about 2 degrees centigrade. If there were shepherds abiding on the hillsides watching their flocks at the time of the birth of Messiah then it was not December, the flocks are bought down from the hills at the end of October. The end of October would also have been the feast of Atonement, an auspicious day for the arrival of Messiah.

Christmas has come to portray all that is worst in mankind, the hype starts in September and goes on for months. There is no mention of keeping Christmas in the renewed covenant (new testament), but there is plenty of mention of keeping the 'Jewish' feasts - passover, unleaven bread, firstfruits, then pentecost and finally trumpets, atonement and tabernacles. All of these feast are appointments with YHWH which we are advised to keep. Christmas and Easter have no place in a scriptual calendar as they do not hold any significance to YHWH (if they did then we would have been advised to keep those also, unfortunately both are 'inventions' of mankind)

Read 'Yada Yahweh' on the website for further information and the full significance of these things


I am not upset just that people twist facts from History to try to show christmas being pagan.

Also like I said there are two jewish holidays that are not started by God nor ordianed by God.

The thing is, they say we copy the birthdays of pagan gods but they were in summer really not December until 274 CE. Who is telling the truth now?

The christmas tree is pagan. Pagans are know to cut down trees and shape them into their idols and strap them for they can not move.

If we compare that to the christmas tree it would look very different we do not worship trees so who is telling the truth Now?

Christmas it self was being done before 200 CE who is telling the truth Now?

And the last thing because it not recorded in scripture makes it wrong like I said to me that a weak arugment due to even Jews have two holidays that are not by God or even called by God to keep.

I believe truth is very important in our faith and also in history.
Offline Swalchy  
#7 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 10:44:08 AM(UTC)
Swalchy
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 250
Man
Location: England

sugarman wrote:


I am not upset just that people twist facts from History to try to show christmas being pagan.

Also like I said there are two Jewish holidays that are not started by God nor ordianed by God.

And the last thing because it not recorded in scripture makes it wrong like I said to me that a weak arugment due to even Jews have two holidays that are not by God or even called by God to keep.


There are many things that the Jews do that are not ordained in Scripture. You wont find anyone here who denies that fact.

Saying that, we're just as critical of their unscriptural beliefs and practises just as we are of the Pagan ones found in the religion of Christianity.

Also, there were many other pagan dieties that had their birthday on Dec 25 long before 274 CE, and even 1 CE. The celebration of Dec 25 as a birthday of a pagan god goes as far back as Ancient Babylon to the rebirth of the god Tammuz, and Easter being the time when he died.
Offline kp  
#8 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 10:55:01 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Hi, sugarman, and welcome to the forum. I agree with you when you say, "Truth is very important in our faith and also in history." In that light, it matters not how far back people celebrated a late-December "Christmas." What matters (if you're going to celebrate the birth of Yahshua at all) is the actual date. And although scripture doesn't tell us (in so many words), it is possible to work it out within a week or so based on the historical evidence. I refer you to a discussion on the Feast of Tabernacles in the Chronology Appendix to Future History ( http://www.futuretruth.n...ndix_Chronology.Prophecy ), about two thirds of the way through the essay. All of the evidence points toward a birthdate in the autumn of 2 BC.

kp
Offline J&M  
#9 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 11:04:43 AM(UTC)
J&M
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

I presume you are referring to Hunukah and Purim as the 2 Jewish feasts, we tend not to give them much significance either, which does not mean that orthadox Judaism does not hold them sacred.

However, since the authority of both Christianity and Judaism is derived from the scriptures, I find it difficult to cope with things which have been invented outside of the scriptual texts whether Jewish or Christian. That Christmas may or may not predate Roman 'christianity' is not strictly relevant, what is relevant is the question "by what authority is Christmas deemed Holy, by man's authority or by YHWH's authority"

It would so easy if Christmas was mentioned in the scriptures, but it is not (along with Hanukah and Purrim). If Christmas was important to YHWH He would have mentioned it, He did not. Therefore I assume Christmas to be a tradition of man, with no authority from YHWH. Same with Hanukah and Purim.

When mankind moves away from the scriptures as has happened in many Jewish and Christian sects, tradition takes over and what is supposed to be fellowship with YHWH becomes a man made religion where man worships priests and rabbis and their 'interpretations' of scripture. There are two sources of knowledge of YHWH available to us, the scriptures, and direct revelation from the set apart Spirit (Holy Spirit)in accordance with the scriptures. Anything else is of dubious value
Offline shalom82  
#10 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 11:22:31 AM(UTC)
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Location: Penna

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Tammuz
Attis
Dionysus
Mithra
Amon
Ra
Amon-Ra
Elah Gabal
Sol
Mithra
Ba'al
Krishna
Adonis

What do all these Gods have in common? A common birthday that falls on December 25th. I even excluded Osiris and Horus for you in deference to your argument. There are other Gods who have a birthday on or around Dec. 25th, but I thought this list sufficient...especially when the main pretenders to the Mantle of Messiah, Mithras and Tammuz are on it. BTW...In reading about this I saw the names Osiris and Horus mentioned over and over again...but in fairness to you...I didn't include them.

The Babylonians celebrated their "Victory of the Sun God on...December 25th
In later times the Saturnalia was condensed to one day...December 25th
When was Dies Natalis Solis Invicti celebrated in Rome?...December 25th

Where have we or anybody twisted facts to try and show that Christmas is Pagan?...One doesn't exactly have to strive or dig in the deepest darkest corners of the ancient libraries to figure out that Christmas has Pagan origins. It's pretty much out there. I don't know how many times I have seen Pagan sites in my research of Christmas angrilly shouting...for Christians to give them back December 25th.


Over and over again scholar after scholar has been quoted about the striking absense of Christmas in the early age of the Ekklesia/Kehilat/Congregation/Called Out Assembly...however you want to put it. Even if they were celebrating it one hundred years before Constantine...did not Yahushua with his own mouth and Yahuchanan's pen say that he hated the practices of the Nicolaitins? He called some congregations dead and vomit...that doesn't seem like a "Keep doin' what you're doin'" exhortation to me.



YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline sugarman  
#11 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 11:22:50 AM(UTC)
sugarman
Joined: 2/3/2008(UTC)
Posts: 67

http://www.answers.com/Tammuz


http://en.wikipedia.org/...deity%29#Further_reading

ummm Tummaz is a summer diety if he was born in decmeber would not his powers be for the good of winter instead of summer?

Edit: Mithra is summer diety to he was move to winter as for the others I will study them

Edit comment from Shalom82:
The festivities in the week following the winter solstice (after which the days grow longer), today called Shab-e Yalda in Iran, are a remnant of the culture which celebrated the birth of the divinity of light on that day. Yalda literally means "The birth of sun".

Edit: Dionysus summer too-Sugarman
Offline shalom82  
#12 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 11:39:27 AM(UTC)
shalom82
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Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
That's the ticket...just keep on saying they are all Summer Gods and the argument will be won. If Christmas is really all that important to you...go ahead and celebrate it. Nobody is stopping you or for that matter can stop you.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Swalchy  
#13 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 11:46:39 AM(UTC)
Swalchy
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 250
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Location: England

I thought it might be nice if I repeated what I said in a separate post:

Hi sugarman - if you do have something else to say in a topic, and yours happens to be the last post, could you please click on the "edit" button at the top of the post and add anything extra at the bottom. This saves on the extra space caused by constant posts by the same person after they were the last person to post anyway. Thanks very much.

Swalchy - Mod Team
Offline sugarman  
#14 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 11:50:36 AM(UTC)
sugarman
Joined: 2/3/2008(UTC)
Posts: 67

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna#Birth

For ba'al you going to have to be more clear ba'at can refer to almost any god


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus#Mithras - This covers both gods and repeats what I already said in 274 CE they were moved to winter.

Did you type Elah Gabal right because I'm geting "can not find".

Edit by Shalom82: After further reading, I will admit that the evidence is on your side as it pertains to Krishna. (verified by sources other than wikipedia) I did spell Elah Gabal right. You should be able to find it. Elah Gabal is one of the Syrian surrogates of Baal. In no way does that article about Deus Sol Invictus cut in your favor as to them being Summer Gods. It seems that you are only relying on wikipedia. Could you perhaps use some more sources?
Offline Swalchy  
#15 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 12:05:15 PM(UTC)
Swalchy
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 250
Man
Location: England

sugarman wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus#Mithras - This covers both gods and repeats what I already said in 274 CE they were moved to winter.


Reading the wikipedia article, not once does it say that Mithra or Sol were summer dieties that were moved to Winter. It actually doesn't even mention the word "summer".

It does say that the Emperor Aurelian dedicated a Temple to Sol in 274 CE.

But people are going to have to do a lot better than quoting Wikipedia.
Offline sugarman  
#16 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 12:12:17 PM(UTC)
sugarman
Joined: 2/3/2008(UTC)
Posts: 67

Swalchy wrote:


Reading the wikipedia article, not once does it say that Mithra or Sol were summer dieties that were moved to Winter. It actually doesn't even mention the word "summer".

It does say that the Emperor Aurelian dedicated a Temple to Sol in 274 CE.

But people are going to have to do a lot better than quoting Wikipedia.


Did you read my other site?

http://thriceholy.net/christmas.html

Quote:
The accusation that December 25th was lifted from these pagan worthies began with a German Protestant writer and has gone on to become a staple of atheist web-sites. The original author did not, of course, claim that Jesus did not exist nor that He was copied from these deities, but rather pointed out that the Bible does not provide His birth-date. Christmas, scorned by the Puritans, has become so popular that many who know nothing else about Jesus know that He was born on December 25th. But was He? For that matter, were Osiris and Dionysus?

Compiling vital statistics for pagan non-entities presents its own unique challenges, including diverse traditions. But December 25th came to be Osiris' birthday quite late in the game -- the late third century A.D. Originally his birth was celebrated, along with that of other major Egyptian deities, during the five days tacked on to the close of the Egyptian year:

“The following myth is related in the briefest terms possible, divested of everything unnecessary and superfluous. They tell that the sun having discovered Rhea secretly copulating with Saturn, laid a curse upon her, that she should not bring forth a child in either month or year: that Hermes being in love with the goddess copulated with her; and afterwards playing at counters with the Moon and winning from her the seventieth part of each one of her lights, out of the whole composed five days, the which he added to the three hundred and sixty, which days now the Egyptians call 'additional,' and keep as the birthdays of the gods; that on the first of these was born Osiris, and that, a voice issued forth with him in the birth, that 'the Lord of all is entering into light.'” (Plutarch, Isis and Osiris, Chapter XII)

During the period in question, the Egyptian new year was occurring during the summer, as did also Dionysus' birthday. How did their birthdays get moved to December 25th? A solarist emperor named Aurelian so decreed in the late third century. This emperor came by his solarist views honestly, he learned them on his momma's knee: she was a priestess of the sun.


I don't know about you but it seems that the Egyptians keep their birthdays in the summer

Mithras also ties very close with these gods too for the other sites I posted as well.
Offline shalom82  
#17 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 12:20:46 PM(UTC)
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Here is something that might be helpful as well:

http://www.menorah.org.za/the_two_babylons/
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#18 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 12:38:53 PM(UTC)
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The problem I have with the whole Christmas debate is I have seen far too much evidence of Christmas being pagan, as Swalchy said from well before 1CE.

In the evidence I have seen and heard pagans claim it as the solstice and theirs, this stretches back through history - and can be seen in English pagan history too. Now we have no-Christian historians who see Christmas as a pagan festival, and we also see CHRISTIAN historians claiming it was a pagan festival. And of course the pagans lol

Christmas had a huge awful history in England, so much so that it was actually banned for a few years... the history of what it was is documented there too, and its nothing Yah would ever sign His Name to.

Now, most Christians will say Christmas is Pagan. I know this as my mother is one of these Christians. Her stance, the stance I used to take, and the stance 90% of my Christian friends take is that it did used to be pagan, but now we made it all ok and its a time to celebrate when "Jesus" was born, and good will to all men, and mince pies...

Even if that was true, and it was all happy happy now, Yah never signed up for it. They miss the point. The point isnt so much as is Christmas pagan, or has it been made lovely now, the point is Did Yahweh want us to do this? That answer is no, even if December 25th was a random day picked out of the air with no pagan roots, who are we to say when we can celebrate the feast of Tabernacles? Plus it completly misses the point of the prophetic time line...

Seems as though Christmas is as pagan as I am English, we know Yah hates us getting involved in that stuff... so how do you think He feels when we do it, take on all the tradition, make up a name to call him and slap it all over the event?

No amount of arguments saying "it isn't pagan" or "it is pagan" or "it was pagan but its all ok now" is ever going to make it right in Yah's eyes. What matters is what He says, not what we want Him to say.

He never said anything about Christmas, we pretty much know when the Messiah was born, and we know we have a feast to celebrate for that time.

Im going with Yah on this one.

And Sugarman, your are always welcome :) We care for the truth too, and unfortunately the truth I have found is that people who argue for Christmas not being pagan build a bad argument based on fiction because the love Christmas. There is soo much better than Christmas out there for us, lets embrace what Yah wants, and not what man whats eh?

Peace dude

- Robski
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline sugarman  
#19 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 12:39:14 PM(UTC)
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shalom82 wrote:
Here is something that might be helpful as well:

http://www.menorah.org.za/the_two_babylons/


The emperor tried to achieve more unity in the Empire by establishing Sol invictus as supreme god of the Roman Empire. On coins, Sol is called Dominus imperi Romani. A priesthood called "priests of the Sun-god" was created. At the end of A.D.274, perhaps on the 25th of December (Sol's alleged birthday), he inaugurated the new temple of the Sun-god in Rome on the eastern Campus Martius (today between the Via del Corso and the Piazza San Silvestro). Annual ludi and an agon Solis every fourth year were being held in honor of the Sun-god [[28]]. Aurelian also restored discipline in the army [[29]].

http://www.roman-emperors.org/aurelian.htm

Ahhh I heard of that book and look into it .

Did you know Ralph Woodrom once a big supporter of that book is no longer a supporter? He's gone against The Two Babylons now.

http://www.amazon.com/Ch...id=1202077950&sr=1-6

But from what I've studied myself The Two Babylons would not stand up to the documents. They all make the same mistake thinking that Osiris birthday and other major gods like I've already posted was on Dec 25.

Edit:

Robskiwarrior wrote:
The problem I have with the whole Christmas debate is I have seen far too much evidence of Christmas being pagan, as Swalchy said from well before 1CE. . .


The problem is that they take gods that have nothing to do with the Winter Solstice or anything and say 'hey look! These gods were born on Dec 25 so its pagan.' But that's wrong, sorry.

Just read the sites and Historians notes I gave. Its clear to me.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#20 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 12:54:57 PM(UTC)
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I'm very sorry Sugar, but you have been misguided. there is nothing more I can say, I have done a lot of research into Christmas and have seen both sides of the argument. Christmas was always the Winter Solstice, the birth of Mithras, from way beyond 1CE. I'm sorry that you think otherwise, and I urge you to re-evaluate the facts.

But like Shalom said, if you want to celebrate it, that's your decision :) As for me and my house, we shall serve Yahuweh.


Edit: post vanished... re-added :)
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Offline sugarman  
#21 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 12:57:24 PM(UTC)
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double post yes sorry but I hope you look in to The historian douments
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#22 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 1:08:21 PM(UTC)
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sugarman wrote:
double post yes sorry but I hope you look in to The historian douments


I will sugs :)

But like I said, for me the argument isn't if its pagan or not - the fact is Yah has nothing to do with it. :)
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Offline sugarman  
#23 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 2:53:54 PM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:


I will sugs :)

But like I said, for me the argument isn't if its pagan or not - the fact is Yah has nothing to do with it. :)


And Yah has nothing to do with two jewish holidays but does that make it wrong?

Remember even the angels sing a song giving glory to Christ for he is born.

Like the holiday plium I do not think I spell it right its in the bible old testament but Yah or none of the prophets during that time or later condemn it.

That holiday was made by the Jews.
Offline Swalchy  
#24 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 3:06:36 PM(UTC)
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sugarman wrote:


And Yah has nothing to do with two jewish holidays but does that make it wrong?


Yes, it does make it wrong if they neglect the other 7 actual feasts of Yah, and also if both festivals are based on pagan ones.

Quote:
Remember even the angels sing a song giving glory to Christ for he is born.


The Heavenly Messengers gave glory to God once when Messiah came into the world. There is no mention of them doing it again on His supposed "birthday"

Quote:
That holiday was made by the Jews.


Who cares. The last I looked, Purim wasn't pagan.
Offline shalom82  
#25 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 3:22:25 PM(UTC)
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You cannot equate Hanukkah and Purim to Christmas. I am sorry but you can't. They are not part of the 7 Miqrym but they serve their purpose and are mentioned in the Scriptures. Purim in the Covenant scriptures and Hanukkah in the renewed Covenant scriptures. They serve as prophetic shadow pictures of what is to come. Even if we don't celebrate them we are to understand their relevance. As Hanukkah and Purim are celebrated now in a rabbinic way...they are deboned floppy shadows of their original purposes and have become excuses for drunkeness and crossdressing (in the case of Purim) and basically a Jewish Christmas (in the case of Hanukkah) There is nothing inherrently wrong with celebrating/observing Hanukkah or Purim as they were intended....either as a Gentile or a Yahudi. Both should love Israel and the Yahudim and rejoice with them and remember what YHWH has done for them....and understand the larger picture of what is being said. Haman and Antiochus are both shadows of the coming Anti-Messiah and the abomination of desolation. Christmas and Easter are part of the same circuit. You accept one you gotta accept the other one. And yes I have heard of Ralph Woodrow and his backsliding...and frankly I will defer to the scriptures before I accept any man's understanding. Even when I celebrated Christmas when I was 6 years old...a decade and a half before I ever layed eyes on YY, my own church admitted that it was of Pagan origins...keep on denying it's origins and meanings of it's contemptible rituals if that is what you want to do.

At least...At least...Hanukkah was mentioned in the scriptures...and nothing is mentioned in the Scriptures without purpose. Where is there a any mentioning of Christmas? To be sure there is a birth account. But even if your assertion that all those gods are Summer Gods...and it's all just one big conspiracy...MESSIAH WAS NOT BORN IN THE WINTER. He was born on the Feast of Sukkot...as is a midterm fulfillment of that festival. You celebrate a festival that is not mandated in scripture, is not even mentioned in scripture....and... I am sorry...ALL of us here have researched this to the point of nausea...IS PAGAN. As was said before, go ahead celebrate it. Wonderful, Enjoy it while you can. As Robski said (and Robski I was thinking exactly what you typed and was going to write it but I didn't...but that doesn't matter because it's just such a wonderful affirmation that the Ruach puts consensus and inspiration in us...) As for me and my house...We shall serve Yahuweh.

Here is a little amplified Torah for you that may help you to understand why we as Yahudim are not going back to the old ways.

"Indeed, when you are led into, and are included in, the land associated with Yahuweh your Elohiym, that was given to you, you shall not accept, teach, imitate, be trained in, instruct, be accustomed to, disciple others in, perform, commit to, observe, celebrate, profit from, bring about, ordain, or institute any of the disgusting religious ways, abhorrent rites, detestable idolatrous things, repulsive and loathsome rituals, or abominable festivals of these Gentile nations."

We aren't even to worship Yahuweh in their ways...even if we worship Yahuweh.

As was said...go ahead partake...that's your perogative and choice.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline sugarman  
#26 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 3:27:20 PM(UTC)
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shalom82 wrote:
You cannot equate Hanukkah and Purim to Christmas. I am sorry but you can't. They are not part of the 7 Miqrym but they serve their purpose and are mentioned in the Scriptures. Purim in the Covenant scriptures and Hanukkah in the renewed Covenant scriptures...


You have the book of maccabees in your bible?

I'll let the evidence I posted speak for itself
Offline Swalchy  
#27 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 3:34:28 PM(UTC)
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I'm afraid we have strayed very much off topic.

Sorry bitnet. Your thread got Hijacked =/
Offline sugarman  
#28 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 3:35:19 PM(UTC)
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The origins that people say its pagan you need to re-read history.

Its clear Auelian collective different cults and put them on Dec 25.

Most Egypt major gods were in fact spring/summer. I have already proven that.

But it up to you to accept the facts or deny them.

And for The record last time I check only Catholic have maccabees in their Bible so how can you say you have Hannuak.

Edit:

Also the thing is from reading your making an arugment well because it serves its place then its ok.

I can make the same arugment that christmas serves it place by remembering The birth of Christ.

But where is hannukah mention in scripture? The holiday itself?
Offline Swalchy  
#29 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2008 3:43:23 PM(UTC)
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sugarman wrote:
The origins that people say its pagan you need to re-read history.


History shows that the birthday of several Pagan gods were celebrated during the Winter Solstice. Especially the god Tammuz

Quote:
Its clear Auelian collected different cults and put them on Dec 25


Only about 4, and there's a lot more pagan gods than that I can assure you

Quote:
Most Egypt major gods were in fact spring/summer. I have already proven that.


That doesn't account for the many Babylonian, Assyrian, Samarian etc etc pagan gods.

Quote:
And for The record last time I check only Catholic have maccabees in their Bible so how can you say you have Hannuak.


Read John 10:22 recently?

Feast of Dedication = Hannukkah

Now, as I said before:

I'm afraid we have strayed very much off topic.

Sorry bitnet. Your thread got Hijacked =/
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