Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC) Posts: 14 Location: Australia
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Hi,
How can I know the scriptures we have today are the same or similar to the ones 2000 years ago? Also could someone post the list of verses that do not appear in the most earliest manuscripts?
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Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC) Posts: 14 Location: Australia
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Swalchy wrote:Hi NS:
To answer your question: We currently have 69 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament dating before 300 CE. Hi Swalchy, With these 69 Greek manuscripts how much of the RC can we put together?
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Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC) Posts: 544 Thanks: 4 times
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Would anyone know how early these manscripts are estimated to be? I've seen conflicting dates but thought that parts of John existed from the mid second century, but would like to know more about these early manuscripts.
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Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC) Posts: 14 Location: Australia
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Swalchy wrote:
At least 80% of it.
Where do we get the remaining 20% from?
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Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC) Posts: 2,616 Location: Texas Thanks: 5 times Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
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We get them from post Constantine manuscripts, which are not neccisarily wrong, but suspect given the changes we know were made, by comparing the oldest manuscripts we have with them. Most english bibles are based on the Textus Recepticus Originally Posted by: Yada Yahweh Book 1 Genesis Chapter 1 Re' Therefore, we will not rely upon the KJV, NKJV, ASB, NASB, IV, NIV, or any other popular Scriptural rendition. All English translations vary from poor to horrible. There isn't any worth recommending.
The reason they are all errant and inadequate is that they all come from the same polluted well and familiarity sells. The Textus Receptus serves as the foundation of all English translations of the Renewed Covenant and yet it was an intellectual fraud and financial hoax. In October of 1515 CE a Dutch secular humanist, Desiderius Erasmus, and Johann Froben, a publisher of low repute, took five months to mark up, adding and taking away from, a highly flawed 12th century Medieval Greek manuscript and set type directly from those arbitrary scribbles. Then in the places where they didn't have possession of a Greek text, they filled in the blanks by translating the Latin Vulgate. Worse, when Roman Catholics protested that some of their pet passages weren't included, Erasmus and Froben added them without any Scriptural basis to quiet their critics.
In the absence of a viable competitor, the highly errant rendering was said to be "a text received by all in which we have nothing changed or corrupted." Rubbish was thus rendered "the Textus Receptus." And from this trash, the King James was printed in 1609 CE for purely political reasons. The KJV in turn became so popular, no English translation has yet been offered which dares to correct its familiar phrasing.
It wasn't until 1707 that the Textus Receptus was challenged - effectively undermining the basis of the Reformation and Protestantism. John Mill, a fellow of Queens College in Oxford, invested 30 years comparing the Textus Receptus to some one hundred Greek manuscripts in his possession. In so doing, he discovered and documented 30,000 variations between them. And even this was just the tip of the iceberg. Known variations between the oldest manuscripts of the Renewed Covenant, and that which serves as the basis for every English translation, exceed 300,000. While Christian pastors hold up their favorite English translation of the Bible and proclaim that it is "the inerrant word of God," factually, the book they are touting isn't even remotely consistent with the earliest witnesses. |
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand |
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Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC) Posts: 14 Location: Australia
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Hi Swalchy, do you know anything about the "early church father" quotes? Supposedly we can recreate almost the whole RC. (minus 11 insignificant verses)
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Joined: 11/6/2007(UTC) Posts: 114 Location: Hilo, Hawaii
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There goes my pastor's argument that "Kristos" and "Jesus" appear in the earliest Greek manuscripts. He said that the use of placeholders for sacred names was simply not true.
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Joined: 11/6/2007(UTC) Posts: 114 Location: Hilo, Hawaii
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So the idea is that the placeholders were used because "Yahushua" and "MessiYah" couldn't be transliterated effectively in Greek? What about words like "Father" and "Mother?" The wikipedia article says those used placeholders too. Who's to say that the placeholders weren't used for commonly occurring words?
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Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,470 Location: England Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
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gammafighter wrote:So the idea is that the placeholders were used because "Yahushua" and "MessiYah" couldn't be transliterated effectively in Greek? What about words like "Father" and "Mother?" The wikipedia article says those used placeholders too. Who's to say that the placeholders weren't used for commonly occurring words? Yes, they were - especially for names. If you could not write it in Greek, then it was placeheld lol. If it was a divine name, then a line was drawn above the placeholder to signal divinity. It was mainly for names though, as most other words would have an adequate substitute. |
Signature Updated! Woo that was old... |
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Joined: 11/6/2007(UTC) Posts: 114 Location: Hilo, Hawaii
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Thanks Swalchy. I might not suggest my pastor get that book- I'd rather get it myself and let him read it. :D I haven't actually spoken to him about this topic since we last talked, so I don't know how he will react. I just want to get as much information as I can so I don't have to assume anything. When I have more time, I would like to look into this more. For now though, I can at least tell my pastor that the apostles didn't write "Iesous" and "Kristos" out directly.
Note: I just realized... maybe calling him "my pastor" isn't quite right. He's my friend who happens to be a pastor. He's is a very intelligent man and I happen to fellowship in his congregation (for lack of believers that share my beliefs), but I would never call him my "rabbi"in any way. For simplicity's sake i will call him "my pastor" though.
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Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,120
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Hello All,
Gamma, I'd suggest that you try to get your "pastor" to read YY as soon as possible. Try not to play in that "field" but bring him over to this "field" otherwise it will take too long and too much resources just to correct the mistakes and misconceptions that have plagued us for 2,000 years. If he is really intelligent and open he would pick up on the messages contained herein. BTW, it won't hurt to call him by his name since you are good friends. The others may hear and may want to understand why you are so informal. Then you can direct them to this site as well! Before long you may have a few friends who are of the same belief as you. :-) Praise be to Yahweh for the Salvation in Yahushua! |
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom. |
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Joined: 11/6/2007(UTC) Posts: 114 Location: Hilo, Hawaii
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Oops, I call him by his name to his face (strangely enough, his name is Ahshuah, which looks a lot like YAhshua), but on here i just refer to him as "my pastor".
He's checked out YY a little and, being a pastor, he was mostly taken aback at how much it differs from the mainstream. We've started meeting together so he can explain to me what he thinks is wrong with YY- just kind of giving me an informal rebuttal from mainstream Christianity. in the interest of fairness and a complete pursuit of the truth, i'm hearing him out (through the ears of a skeptic). I pray that we will both end up finding out the truth with certainty, whatever that may be.
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Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,120
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gammafighter wrote:I pray that we will both end up finding out the truth with certainty, whatever that may be. Well Gamma, good on you! But I suspect that the Truth won't be where "your pastor" is right now. It may take some time or happen all of a sudden, but it may be up to you to find it first and be bold enough to declare it with conviction. |
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom. |
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